What's the CR?

[Tor the Fallen]

What do you think would be the CR of the following "Encounter":

While out in the wilds, an earthquake strikes. It's big. Trees begin to fall down, the ground begins to liquify into patches of quicksand, and it's very difficult to stand.

A nearby glacial river is shook loose and jumps its banks, flooding the forest and scouring everything in its path. Upstream, the glacier's moraine rattles loose, breaking a damn and releasing a torrent of water. (The water, btw, is very cold, around 40 degrees F, cold enough to cause hypothermia in a few minutes of submersion. The party is wearing summer clothes and has no protection from the cold of the water.)

At the same time, the nearby ocean has pulled back; a tsunami is imminent. As the party stumbles for hire ground, the mountains creak and begin to avalanche rock, mud and snow, spilling massive landslides down their slopes.

[FireSpark]

This situation screams DM's discretion to me. Namely looking for common sense responses from the characters, as well as any creative or unusual (yet effective) methods of dealing with the catastrophe.

As for a CR, my knee jerk reaction is to look up the kind of spells that mimic these kinds occurances, and use those as a kind of baseline. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of at least a CR 8 or 10, assuming of course that the party is right smack in the middle of ALL these things, and are going to have deal with them all pretty much simultaneously.

[Thrawn183]

I don't know.

Considering that almost everything could be avoided with a simple Fly spell, it depends on the party.

Too situational to call.

[daggaz]

I'm thinking that the party is pretty much screwed, and it is entirely up to the DM's discretion, as to how screwed they are, which reeks of railroading to me... I mean, how do you fairly give a tactical overview of all the water, quicksand, falling rocks, etc, etc...? So basically you will be going by the seat of your pants and anything that sounds clever, you will give them a fiat to not get hurt by one thing or another. Personally, I cant stand situations in DnD like that, but that is just me.

That said, if they have access to overland flight or teleport or even just normal fly (we fly up into the branches of the biggest, most stable looking tree that *isn't* tipping over), then its instant WIN for the party, and not much of a challenge. So it really comes down to which spells the party has access to.

[Tor the Fallen]

I'm thinking that the party is pretty much screwed, and it is entirely up to the DM's discretion, as to how screwed they are, which reeks of railroading to me... I mean, how do you fairly give a tactical overview of all the water, quicksand, falling rocks, etc, etc...? So basically you will be going by the seat of your pants and anything that sounds clever, you will give them a fiat to not get hurt by one thing or another. Personally, I cant stand situations in DnD like that, but that is just me.

The scenario actually occurred with a group of Alaskan gold miners in the 19th century. They all survived because people were tougher back then; they fled the river basin they were in as it flooded, dodging trees and quicksand, saw the ocean rush out, and fled for higher ground, trying to avoid the steepest ravines on the mountains, where rocks were coming down, etc. A survival check or knowledge: nature check would certainly help a player in a situation like this.

Besides that, a major earthquake, depending on its exact location, will cause all these events to happen. It's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That said, if they have access to overland flight or teleport or even just normal fly (we fly up into the branches of the biggest, most stable looking tree that *isn't* tipping over), then its instant WIN for the party, and not much of a challenge. So it really comes down to which spells the party has access to.

True enough; but remember earthquakes have a concentration DC of 20+spell level. A 5th level wizard with 14 con has what, a 40% chance of casting fly on one of his companions (DC 23 vs a +10 to con checks)? A ninth level wizard with teleport would have +14 to concentration checks, which means a 45% chance to get the spell off. If I'm doing my math right.

But yeah, as they go up in levels, the challenge becomes easier.

I'm looking at something I'd throw at 5th to 9th level characters, and I'd reward them for clever/quick thinking, such as alternative modes of movement, or moving to higher ground.

[goat]

Hmmm... A casting of Rope trick might be enough. It depends what you consider to be area effects.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

What do you think would be the CR of the following "Encounter":

Encounters don't have CRs. They have Encounter Levels. Individual Elements have CRs. The Avalanche has its own CR, the Tsunami and Flood have their own CR. When combined as one Encounter, they have an Encounter Level. So I assume you mean, "What's the EL?" </terminology police>

Anyway, according to the DMG, a standard avalanche is CR 7. However, none of the other effects you mention have effective CRs listed, so we'll have to eyeball them.

Let's see, the flooding water would roughly be the equivalent of a Flooding Room trap, once you consider the other effects that are restricting the characters' movement. That's CR 5.

Quicksand can be circumvented or overcome with a number of easy checks, so I'd peg it at no more than CR 1.

Everything else simply magnifies the other dangers, but not drastically.

I'd say the whole thing is about EL 8. If the terrain is really difficult, and they have no flying capability, maybe EL 9.

Of course, as has been mentioned, if all the PCs can fly, It wouldn't be a challenge at all. So nothing about the whole thing would count.

True enough; but remember earthquakes have a concentration DC of 20+spell level. A 5th level wizard with 14 con has what, a 40% chance of casting fly on one of his companions (DC 23 vs a +10 to con checks)? A ninth level wizard with teleport would have +14 to concentration checks, which means a 45% chance to get the spell off. If I'm doing my math right.

Doesn't the flooding typically show up after the earthquake?

[Tor the Fallen]

Encounters don't have CRs. They have Encounter Levels. Individual Elements have CRs. The Avalanche has its own CR, the Tsunami and Flood have their own CR. When combined as one Encounter, they have an Encounter Level. So I assume you mean, "What's the EL?" </terminology police>

Uh, ok.

Anyway, according to the DMG, a standard avalanche is CR 7. However, none of the other effects you mention have effective CRs listed, so we'll have to eyeball them.

Let's see, the flooding water would roughly be the equivalent of a Flooding Room trap, once you consider the other effects that are restricting the characters' movement. That's CR 5.

Quicksand can be circumvented or overcome with a number of easy checks, so I'd peg it at no more than CR 1.

Everything else simply magnifies the other dangers, but not drastically.

I'd say the whole thing is about EL 8. If the terrain is really difficult, and they have no flying capability, maybe EL 9.

Of course, as has been mentioned, if all the PCs can fly, It wouldn't be a challenge at all. So nothing about the whole thing would count.

Hmm, alright. That seems a pretty reasonable evaluation, thanks.

Doesn't the flooding typically show up after the earthquake?

Typically, but they're following a river north and east, which jumps its banks as soon as the quaking begins. Big quakes last a minute or two, long enough for the jokulhaups to reach them, which would push them into the tsunami coming from behind. Of course, that's if they manage to get out of the way of the river in the first place.

The collapsing forest would also be rather dangerous.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Typically, but they're following a river north and east, which jumps its banks as soon as the quaking begins. Big quakes last a minute or two, long enough for the jokulhaups to reach them, which would push them into the tsunami coming from behind. Of course, that's if they manage to get out of the way of the river in the first place.

M'kay. Fair enough. Sounds like fun.

[Anxe]

Something like that doesnt really need a CR, just the amount of exp you get for surviving it. I'd go with 1000.

[Kaelaroth]

Why kill your party like that? WHY?

I generally polish my foolish PCs off with well-placed bolts of lightning, or gigantic brazen arthropods.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Something like that doesnt really need a CR, just the amount of exp you get for surviving it. I'd go with 1000.

It's kinda nice to know what kind of chance the party has of survivng it. That's the whole point of CRs and ELs.

Why kill your party like that? WHY?

Kind of assuming there, aren't ya? They've got plenty of chance to survive.