Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Wraith]

Trick question because a Heretic and a Witch is not the same!
Of course that kinda ruins the trifecta example, but i guess thats only deserved.

When it comes to humans, all Witches are Heretics, but not all Heretics are Witches.

In the same vein, it's impossible for a Xenos to be a Heretic. To be a Heretic requires one to have been initiated into a faith and to then begin preaching a non-authorised version or interpretation; no filthy Xenos would ever be allowed to join the Imperial Faith, so at best all they can be are blasphemers.

That's why Witches are the worst; because they can be Heretics or Xenos and blasphemers as well!

[Cheesegear]

Trick question because a Heretic and a Witch is not the same!

Wraith already beat me to it; All Witches are Heretics. The Ordo Hereticus makes no distinction.

In the same vein, it's impossible for a Xenos to be a Heretic.

If a Xeno does not accept that Humanity is superior to them, then they have not accepted the Imperial Creed, and thus are a Heretic.

[Wraith]

If a Xeno does not accept that Humanity is superior to them, then they have not accepted the Imperial Creed, and thus are a Heretic.

I'm not sure that's how Heresy works, at least in contemporary context. To be a Heretic, you have to first belong to an established set of beliefs or tradition, like a religion, and to then subvert it's teachings. In 40k, human culture is synonymous with the Imperial Cult; it's nearly impossible to be human and NOT be considered a member of the Cult, so any alternative teachings would be Heresy.

If you're never of that religion and you preach something else however, then you're more accurately an infidel - one who is "without the faith" rather than deviating from it. That'd be the case for - as an example - an Eldar, whose established traditions/religion are not that of human culture/religion.

Similarly, the Imperial Cult says that Xenos are monsters whose only destiny is to be eradicated. Therefore Xenos cannot join the Imperial Cult in the first place, to then later subvert it.

....Well, that's not literally true. I suppose that they COULD join the Imperial Cult, if they were to find someone willing to 'baptise' them and then they were willing to mutilate themselves in an orgy of self-destructive loathing.... That's a pretty apt description of many ab-humans, but why any one else would choose such a thing when literally anything else was possible, would be highly questionable.

[Sinewmire]

I'm not sure that's how Heresy works, at least in contemporary context. To be a Heretic, you have to first belong to an established set of beliefs or tradition, like a religion, and to then subvert it's teachings. In 40k, human culture is synonymous with the Imperial Cult; it's nearly impossible to be human and NOT be considered a member of the Cult, so any alternative teachings would be Heresy.

Quite right. However, in the 41st millennium, heretic seems to be the catch-all term for any divergent thought process or belief system. Whilst calling everything Heresy has become a meme in and of itself, there's an atheist in Last Chancers who is referred to as a heretic rather than an apostate, and most of the Traitor Marines were never a part of the Imperial Faith.

I guess they want to avoid people yelling "INFIDEL!" rather than "HERETIC!" when they charge, as that has a whole range of different connotations.

[Xenopax]

I highly doubt most imperial citizens know the exact definition of heresy and those who do probably don't care. And I'm pretty sure somewhere in the imperial cult it's written that all humans must be followers of the imperial cult. If you're human and disobey the imperium, that's heresy.

Unrelated: Every time anyone says Xeno in this thread, I automatically assume that's me for a second.

[hamishspence]

Wraith already beat me to it; All Witches are Heretics. The Ordo Hereticus makes no distinction.

A not yet sanctioned psyker (who might not even know yet that they are a psyker), could be both a "witch" and a loyal, orthodox member of the Imperial creed.

So, in that respect, they could be a "non-heretic witch" between discovery, and completing the sanctioning process.

[Wraith]

I guess they want to avoid people yelling "INFIDEL!" rather than "HERETIC!" when they charge, as that has a whole range of different connotations.

The same thing did occur to me, too.
I'm just glad that they didn't start using "infidel" in the early 1990's when it was a term distinctly less.... I don't want to say "popular" but you know what I mean.... than it has been in the last decade, and they had to try and bury it due to being in a post-Bin Laden world.... That could have been awkward, and GW aren't well know for their handling of controversial subjects.

Unrelated: Every time anyone says Xeno in this thread, I automatically assume that's me for a second.

Same here, whenever Eldar and Necrons get brought up

So, in that respect, they could be a "non-heretic witch" between discovery, and completing the sanctioning process.

There you go again, bringing logic and common sense into 40k....

That's kind of Schrodinger's Heretic, I suppose. They're still a witch even if they themselves don't know it, and by being an unsanctioned witch they are by definition heretics too, even if retroactively.

Then again, Sanctioned Psykers kind of fall between definitions - the Imperial Cult demands that witches be abhorred, but they're still necessary to the functioning of the Imperium. Sanctioning isn't so much a "get out of heresy free" card, more that it's an acknowledgement of a stay of execution for someone who has admitted their sins and is yet still useful.

[Xenopax]

....Well, that's not literally true. I suppose that they COULD join the Imperial Cult, if they were to find someone willing to 'baptise' them and then they were willing to mutilate themselves in an orgy of self-destructive loathing.... That's a pretty apt description of many ab-humans, but why any one else would choose such a thing when literally anything else was possible, would be highly questionable.

This brings to mind that one species that worshipped the emperor. They had weapons in the RPG....Can't remember their name sadly or their discovering chapter. Was a fist successor tho.

[hamishspence]

"unknowingly practicing psykery without sanction" could be a crime without being a heresy. A point is made in the Dark Heresy roleplaying game books of how plenty of 40K people are unrepentant criminals without being heretics.

While informally, "heresy" can mean "anything an inquisitor doesn't like" - I think, at least in the Dark Heresy books, formally, it's rather narrower.


I don't think the average inquisitor would refer to the average "person who has just been handed over to the Black Ships", as a heretic based on their psyker powers alone.

[Wraith]

I don't think the average inquisitor would refer to the average "person who has just been handed over to the Black Ships", as a heretic based on their psyker powers alone.

Imperial Law, despite being heavily influenced by it, is a separate entity to the Imperial Cult - one is overseen by the Adeptus Arbites, the other by the Ecclesiarchy. I think the confusion arises when the writers don't distinguish which is being referred to.

Being a witch is against the tenets of the Imperial Cult.
Being an unsanctioned Psyker is illegal under Imperial Law and the Imperial Cult.
Being a Sanctioned Psyker is permitted under the Law, but not the Cult.

So referring to a Psyker as a heretic is true in regards to the Cult, but it's not necessarily illegal in regards to the Law. Depending on the Inquisitor, they could be using either or both definitions - Monodominants in particular would be likely to think of any Psyker, sanctioned or otherwise, as heretics even if they are not breaking Imperial Law.

[hamishspence]

Being a Sanctioned Psyker is permitted under the Law, but not the Cult.

So referring to a Psyker as a heretic is true in regards to the Cult, but it's not necessarily illegal in regards to the Law.

I never got the impression that the Imperial Cult was that touchy about sanctioned psykers. Astropaths are sanctioned psykers - and they're downright revered in some places - though their ties to the Emperor might be partly responsible for that.

There's even a psyker saint in the Imperial Cult, according to the Blood of Martyrs splatbook.

The point of Heresy is that it's a crime, not "just" a sin - in a penal legion short story in the Into The Maelstrom anthology, one of the legionaires is specifically in it because he's committed "second degree heresy" (so, there are degrees, like with murder).


IMO, a regiment that has both sanctioned psykers, and priests attached as Advisors, is not going to have the priests constantly calling the psykers "heretics". They might advise the troopers to stay well clear of the psykers when off duty - but they won't be denouncing the psykers themselves.

[Cheesegear]

So referring to a Psyker as a heretic is true in regards to the Cult

The problem is that 40K being 40K, Psyker, and psyker, are two different things.

The Imperium loves Psykers. They go to school for five years, and they learn to resist minor Daemonic Possessions, and they come away with a sweet knife with which to kill themselves with should that training fail or be insufficient (or they're just huge ****ies who are also simultaneously comfortable with endangering all of Humanity).

Lower-case pyskers, are witches. And need to die.

Depending on the Inquisitor, they could be using either or both definitions - Monodominants in particular would be likely to think of any Psyker, sanctioned or otherwise, as heretics even if they are not breaking Imperial Law.

If they're not strong enough to be a capital-P Psyker, they would have already been fed to the Emperor.
If they haven't been fed to the Emperor, then they are mandated to serve the Imperium in some capacity.
If they're not serving the Imperium, they get a crossbow to the face.

However, the Emperor Himself, said Psykers no Psyking. The Ecclesiarchy took it back. But, the Emperor, Himself, never did in any official capacity - and that's how you get Black Templars and others of that ilk. There are those who serve the Emperor, not the High Lords. Puritans who are too puritanical for Humanity's greater good.

[LansXero]

But, the Emperor, Himself, never did in any official capacity

Who knows, maybe he does when Terra is getting flooded by traitors and their daemon allies. Not that many would be around to hear it, but its one of the things that maybe the novels will expand on.

So, how do Librarians happen? Astartes recruits who turn out to have been latently psychic and slip under the notice of the black ships? psychic children ceded from the black ships to each chapter? And what about Grey Knights?

In that vein, how do psychic Inquisitors happen? Because some of them are only very mildly psychic, if at all, so its not like they take the strongest for Inquisitorial training. What keeps them from becoming yet another Primaris destined to die alongside the IG?

[Cheesegear]

So, how do Librarians happen? Astartes recruits who turn out to have been latently psychic and slip under the notice of the black ships?

Astartes Librarians - like Techmarines - are in a weird sort of black hole where they don't make a whole lot of sense when you scratch the surface.

Astartes Recruiting Worlds since the Heresy, are outside the purview of the High Lords of Terra, and a whole bunch of them outright reject the Authority of the Inquisition - up to and including open warfare. That means that Black Ships don't go to Astartes Worlds (unless explicitly ordered/requested). Which essentially means that Space Marines are responsible for policing themselves. Which they do. When a Neophyte is training, or being developed, Librarians check them. First, for Chaos Taint, and second for Psychic Powers. So the Neophyte is ear-marked for greatness by virtue of having psychic powers whilst also being eligible to be a Space Marine*... It's kind of a big deal. And it's why Space Marine Librarians are so revered. They are literally the pinnacle of what the Emperor saw for (ab-)Humanity.

So, they get their training from the Librarium. That the Chapter already has. However, in doing so, they get removed from their Battle Brothers, skip the majority of basic training, and come out 8-10 years later being able to shoot Lightning out of their head. But reading into it means that they probably can't shoot a Boltgun straight. But who cares? You've got a dude who shoots Lightning out of their head. However the attrition rate is huge. Apparently.

*No. I don't know what happens to witches on Astartes Worlds that aren't eligible to be Space Marines. It's never come up.

It's the same with Techmarines going to Mars for 30 years. Except their Armour is red at the end. Would you rather a super-genius (who is also, still a Space Marine), or a dude that can shoot a Boltgun...When a Chapter already has '1000 dudes' that shoot Boltguns already?

And what about Grey Knights?

666 Trials, one of which is getting possessed by a Daemon and then exorcised.

What keeps them from becoming yet another Primaris destined to die alongside the IG?

The cut of their jib. An Inquisitor walks into the Psykana training facility and says "I want that one."

[Xenopax]

I suddenly have the mental image of an inquisitor in a nice gentlemans suit strolling down the halls of the Psyker training place (too sleepy to remember the name) and just tapping random guys on the head like "I want this one and that one and this one too!" Like a grimdarked kid in a candy shop except the candy is psyker.

I truly am wondrous at similes.

[Wraith]

The Imperium loves Psykers.

"Love" is entirely the wrong word for it. They need Psykers, and most of the time they tolerate Psykers... But even the Sanctioned ones are generally feared and loathed in equal measure. None of the IMperium as individuals likes being around the crazy warp-headed lunatics, if they can possibly do otherwise, and the Imperium as an institution views them as dangerous and requires them to exist under constant threat of execution.

*No. I don't know what happens to witches on Astartes Worlds that aren't eligible to be Space Marines. It's never come up.

Most recruiting worlds tend to be Feral or Feudal Worlds, and spending your first decade as a brutal, illiterate barbarian makes you an ideal candidate for the Astartes mindset. Such societies are rife with superstition and presumably they deal with witches in their own violent ways.

666 Trials, one of which is getting possessed by a Daemon and then exorcised.

Getting possessed and then exorcised has a higher-than-average chance to make you end up as a Blank. That particular test is the Exorcists Chapter's schtick, not the Grey Knights'.

Like a grimdarked kid in a candy shop except the candy is psyker.

The only place that an Inquisitor isn't allowed to take a Psyker, is from it's seat at the Astronomicon. Some of them even travel around in the Black Ships so that they get first pick of newly discovered Psykers as they're handed over to the Sisters of Silence, so your simile it not at all inaccurate.

[LansXero]

666 Trials, one of which is getting possessed by a Daemon and then exorcised.

Well, yes, of course, but applied to which pool of recruits? They dont have a recruiting world, do they?

[Wraith]

Well, yes, of course, but applied to which pool of recruits? They dont have a recruiting world, do they?

The Knights recruit directly from the Black Ships. They also get sent some recruits by a select few other Chapters who know of them and the critical importance of their work, and find candidates who would make suitable Grey Knights.
They don't have a world to recruit from - they are one of the rare few who are allowed to recruit from wherever they damn please, due to the exacting requirements of their geneseed and the secretive nature of their work.

[Cheesegear]

[Grey Knights] don't have a world to recruit from - they are one of the rare few who are allowed to recruit from wherever they damn please, due to the exacting requirements of their geneseed and the secretive nature of their work.

Presumably any Black Ship going to Terra/Luna would have to pass by Titan, first, depending on the time of year (take that, dumb writers). I'm guessing that Grey Knights would basically get first pick of anything coming off of Black Ships. They get mind-wiped, so it doesn't even matter if they're a violent (child) criminal, because all that goes away.

I was...Annoyed, when it was revealed that Zael - from Ravenor - became a Grey Knight (Emperor's Gift...However, there are a lot of things wrong with that book).

So, they get their training from the Librarium. That the Chapter already has.

...I forgot to mention that because Astartes Librarians are trained by their own Chapter, instead of mass-produced in the soul-crushing factory, Chapter Psykers vary wildly in their quality, and their training can bizarre and weird which is why Psykers from different Chapters visualise and utilise the Warp differently. That's why Flesh Tearer Psykers are bat**** crazy, even after the training, it's why White Scars only visualise a particularly violent storm. And it's why Space Wolf Rune Priests just do whatever they want. Because Astartes Psykers aren't policed, except by Astartes...Of their own Chapter.

[LCP]

Presumably any Black Ship going to Terra/Luna would have to pass by Titan, first, depending on the time of year (take that, dumb writers)

Let's say "passing by Titan" means coming within the radius at which the moon orbits the Earth (just because that's a convenient benchmark of distance 'quickly' crossable by conventional propulsion)

Orbital radius of Saturn = 1.4 billion kilometres.
Earth-moon distance = 384,000 kilometres.

Solid Angle subtended by zone of "passing by" Titan to Earth, approximating Earth's position = sun's position (Saturn orbits at 9x Earth's distance so this is a reasonable approximation): 2.36 x 10^-7 steradians

Probability of 'passing by' Titan if you're a spaceship entering the solar system at a random angle: = 0.000002% (rounding up). The probability only rises above 1% if you define "passing by" as coming within 1,000x the moon-earth distance - 21 light minutes.

[The Glyphstone]

I very much doubt that ships entering Terra enter at any random angle, or are allowed to do so. I'd rather expect all legitimate visitors to enter realspace in specific, permitted volumes; anything outside a safe zone is treated as hostile until proven otherwise.

[LCP]

It doesn't really matter for the purposes of the calculation. Given an arbitrary vector into the solar system (whether that's always from a fixed point or resampled from a random distribution each time), the (moving) target you have to hit to pass close to Titan is about 0.000002% of the total available solid angle. Unless your course is intentionally chosen to pass that way the chances of it just randomly lining up are slim to none.

Space, it be large.

EDIT: Here's a fun question: do warp routes' jumping-off points stay fixed with respect to local star systems over a galactic year? If so, does that mean the Warp is rotating?

[Forum Explorer]

It doesn't really matter for the purposes of the calculation. Given an arbitrary vector into the solar system (whether that's always from a fixed point or resampled from a random distribution each time), the (moving) target you have to hit to pass close to Titan is about 0.000002% of the total available solid angle. Unless your course is intentionally chosen to pass that way the chances of it just randomly lining up are slim to none.

Space, it be large.

I think the point is that it wouldn't be arbitrary. I imagine there would be many different checkpoints, and you have to go through each one in order, even if that means taking a weird squiggly line rather then a neat straight line. And I could see Saturn being a checkpoint of some sort.

[LCP]

Trying to enforce checkpoints on the scale of the Solar System would be bonkers. Rogue Trader says the detection range of Imperial shipboard sensors is 20 VU, which on the very upper limit of that abstract scale is something like 200,000 km - similar in scale to, but smaller than, the Earth-Moon distance. Assuming ships are coming in from outside the orbit of Neptune, the area a single patrol ship can see is 0.8 of a quadrillionth of the total volume you're trying to patrol. (Taking - as a wild guess - the height of a modern-day patrol ship as a generous 30m, that's a ratio 25 billion times worse than trying to patrol the entire Pacific Ocean with lookouts in boats).

Also think of how much more of the Emperor's fuel and paint you'd be wasting each journey... not to mention the hundreds of millions of patrol ships you'd need to be keeping constantly space-borne and on the prowl.

All these problems grow as powers of the radius of the zone you're trying to control, so it would make much more sense to have tight cordons close in to the planets you're trying to protect than to try to force all space traffic to follow a single route from 9+ AU out.

EDIT: Had some of my numbers too small - calculation error corrected.

[Forum Explorer]

Trying to enforce checkpoints on the scale of the Solar System would be bonkers. Rogue Trader says the detection range of Imperial shipboard sensors is 20 VU, which on the very upper limit of that abstract scale is something like 200,000 km - similar in scale to, but smaller than, the Earth-Moon distance. Assuming ships are coming in from outside the orbit of Neptune, the area a single patrol ship can see is 0.8 of a quadrillionth of the total volume you're trying to patrol. (Taking - as a wild guess - the height of a modern-day patrol ship as a generous 30m, that's a ratio 25 billion times worse than trying to patrol the entire Pacific Ocean with lookouts in boats).

Also think of how much more of the Emperor's fuel and paint you'd be wasting each journey... not to mention the hundreds of millions of patrol ships you'd need to be keeping constantly space-borne and on the prowl.

All these problems grow as powers of the radius of the zone you're trying to control, so it would make much more sense to have tight cordons close in to the planets you're trying to protect than to try to force all space traffic to follow a single route from 9+ AU out.

EDIT: Had some of my numbers too small - calculation error corrected.

This is Holy Terra. It's defenses are kinda bonkers. It's also very crowded all things considered. Every single planet has dozens if not more orbitals going around it. There are space forts full of elite Guard units on perpetual garrison duty. And thousands upon thousands of void minefields. It's described as being so thick with defenses that is actually reaches right up to the edge of the solar system itself.

Also this is 40K. It's not so much you get spotted without going the wrong way and you are corrected and told not to do it again. It's more, you don't follow protocol and you are killed no questions asked. In fact, asking questions could expose you to Chaos, so no questions are even allowed

And yeah, in other systems they would be more concerned about the cost and wasted fuel. But that doesn't apply to Terra at all.

[Xenopax]

Here's a fun question: do warp routes' jumping-off points stay fixed with respect to local star systems over a galactic year? If so, does that mean the Warp is rotating?

It's the warp man. It's rotating, staying still and folding itself into an origami crane all at the same time.

[LCP]

This is Holy Terra. It's defenses are kinda bonkers.

There's 'regular 40k bonkers' and then 'bonkers even for 40k bonkers'. Even if you grant yourself a few factors of a billion or so leeway for 40K being nuts you're still nowhere near where you need to be to make such a scheme work.

It's also very crowded all things considered. Every single planet has dozens if not more orbitals going around it. There are space forts full of elite Guard units on perpetual garrison duty. And thousands upon thousands of void minefields.

I've always understood these things to be on the distance scale of orbiting satellites, i.e. orbital distances of hundreds or thousands of kilometres, not billions.

It's described as being so thick with defenses that is actually reaches right up to the edge of the solar system itself.

The idea of a continuous, dense sphere of defences stretching from Earth to Neptune is impossible on so many levels that 'cartoonish' would be a gross understatement. It would require orders of magnitude more materiel than the mass of the planet. It would require a constant stream of supplies that would bring far more random supply-ship captains to the Solar System than the number of interlopers it would keep out. If it's dense enough it would have to deal with the Kessler effect and maybe even the pull of its own gravity.

Also this is 40K. It's not so much you get spotted without going the wrong way and you are corrected and told not to do it again. It's more, you don't follow protocol and you are killed no questions asked.

Why would these threats scare anybody if the chances of being caught are effectively zero? You can have the harshest penalties you want, if your rules are unenforcable people aren't gonna be deterred. This is like trying to pass a law regulating what parts of the sea fish can swim in.

And yeah, in other systems they would be more concerned about the cost and wasted fuel. But that doesn't apply to Terra at all.

With the kind of scaling we're talking about (to fill the entire volume of the Solar System with man-made structures at a density of at least 1 per 200,000 km radius sphere), I could easily see this consuming more resources than the entire industrial output of the Imperium. Obviously that latter number is very up in the air so I'm not going to try to get more in-depth on that, but we're talking here about 4x10²⁹ cubic kilometres of space. That's more than 10¹⁸ Earths. IIRC the Imperium is described as being about a million worlds? To supply 1 unit of defensive 'stuff' per 200,000 km radius sensor-range bubble (whether that's a space station or a patrol ship or a mine), every planet in the Imperium would have to supply 10 trillion of those units.

[Xenopax]

These defenses have been stockpiled for 10+ Millenia. And a lot should be from before old night. While I doubt every square km of the solar system is coated in defences, a good part of it would be. It's Holy Terra after all. The rest of the Imperium could fall but as long as Sol stands, there's still an imperium.

[Shadowy]

These defenses have been stockpiled for 10+ Millenia. And a lot should be from before old night. While I doubt every square km of the solar system is coated in defences, a good part of it would be. It's Holy Terra after all. The rest of the Imperium could fall but as long as Sol stands, there's still an imperium.

It's worth mentioning, the most successful assault anyone led onto anywhere even near Terra was the Necrons. They invaded Mars. And managed to stay on the surface for approximately three seconds before being completely vaporized. This was considered a major failing in their defenses.

Then a pack of daemons straight up attacked the gates of the imperial palace. Failed entirely, but it encouraged the custodians to stop hanging around, playing cards with each other.

[DataNinja]

It's worth mentioning, the most successful assault anyone led onto anywhere even near Terra was the Necrons.

Technically, wouldn't Horus' be the most successful? Since the Traitors managed to reach until literally the last defenses, for a lengthy, protracted battle?