Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[deuterio12]

...Out of things they loot from their enemies, from a war.

Most meks are too busy building to search stuff, they usually rely on lootas to get them the good bitz.

...Off of things they loot from their enemies, from a war

Looting allied/neutral remains or accident places or old ruins is also perfectly acceptable

...To make things to fight war better.

The healing comes before the killing.

To eat their enemies, in a war.

There's also transport squigs and hair squigs and assorted utility squigs and tasty squigs to be used as snacks and even pet squigs that orks just like to keep around.

Where their currency is either teef, which they get from punching each other in the mouth and to the victor goes the spoils, or trading loot they got in war, for other gear they can use to kill things, in order to loot stuff.

Although punching other orks for their teef is acceptable, a lot of orks will use their own teef in a pinch, and thanks to that no ork is reduced to extreme poverty as they're always growing new teef. Doks in particular will happily patch unfortonate orks and collect the payment at the same time.

Orks are literally in a classic RPG Loop; Fight stuff to buy stuff to fight harder stuff.

Contrast with the Imperium that's basically a giant failing engine pumping out guardsmen and sphech merines that live only for war and exploting planets for their resources so they can exploit more planets for their resources. Well, more of a falling spiral as eventually they'll run out of planets to exploit. Ork planets are actually pretty self-sustainable stuff.

Plus orks have stuff like speed freaks that like to race just for the sake of racing, and other stuff just for personal enjoyment that doesn't involve hurting anybody else like getting pet squigs. Ork kulture is plain superior, even the eldar agree.

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

[Wraith]

Fair point though in contrast we have orks who just straight up don't give a damn and run around looking for thing to fight while playing make believe with their toys. That works out okay for them, so how much does chaos really need to get their act together to do the thing?

I would argue that kind of proves my point - neither of them have gotten their act together and sorted out their logistics, and as a result neither of them have overthrown the Imperium in 10,000 years of trying.

In the defence of the Orks, they're not TRYING to extinguish all of their competition; they just want to fight forever, which means that in some ways they're handicapping themselves so that they don't win and find themselves with nothing to do. I doubt they're doing it consciously, which is why they usually turn to in-fighting when they realise that the next really great fight is against another Ork....

Chaos, on the other hand, are similarly disorganised but they DO want to conquer the galaxy and, specifically, tear down the entire Imperium. Yet they're doing it with the same methodology - looting and pillaging - as the Orks, who similarly have made only so much progress before collapsing under their own weight every time.

Chaos is its own worst enemy. That's what the Cabal said right in the beginning, and its still true now.

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

A quote from that famously honest, trustworthy and completely reliable human who never ever says or does anything misleading, Eldrad Ulthuan.

[Platinius]

If I remember correctly, the Iron Warriors are very industrious when it comes to building their own gear and their own fortesses, but they are the exception in an otherwise murderhobo life style group.

The Orks are very much capable of building their own stuff as there are many worlds that have been inhabited solely by them for millennia and they produce all they ned to whaaag! each other and everybody else. Raiding is just more fun to them.^^ And it is the gretchins and snotlings that do the menial labour anyway

[Wraith]

If I remember correctly, the Iron Warriors are very industrious when it comes to building their own gear and their own fortesses, but they are the exception in an otherwise murderhobo life style group.

It did occur to me as soon as I'd typed it, that I had probably picked a Legion for whom that specific answer wouldn't really matter.

The Iron Warriors actually have Warpsmiths, and forgeworlds, and stuff - if anyone has ammo to spare, it's probably them.

Similarly the Black Legion, who are just huge and mega-rich. They have so much territory and man-power that they seem to do okay.

The Word Bearers wouldn't care, they'd just sic a daemon on you or stab you with their magic knives.

The World Eaters wouldn't care because KILL MAIM BURN KILL MAIM BURN etc

The Thousand Sons don't use conventional ammo and are all wizards, so bullets aren't important.

The Death Guard are probably similar - they're so screwed up that its debatable if their guns are even guns in the traditional sense.

That just leaves the Emperor's Children - who would probably get off on the sound of a gun dry-firing or something - and the Night Lords who... yeah, they're the guys who tend to get their planets blown up and go raiding for funzies.

...So.... 8/9 Legions have ways to deal with it.... What was my argument about poor logistics again?

[deuterio12]

The World Eaters wouldn't care because KILL MAIM BURN KILL MAIM BURN etc

Funny thing is the World Eaters actually do care, chainaxes gotta be kept in working condition, no sorcerors means keeping vehicles and guns working well too and more in particular their apotecharies are top-notch and can churn out new legionaires faster than anybody else, which is the only reason why they haven't wiped themselves out that with fronstabbing each other all the time for anything and nothing. This is, their "hero"'s special ability is literally teamkilling!

...So.... 8/9 Legions have ways to deal with it.... What was my argument about poor logistics again?

[Wraith]

Funny thing is the World Eaters actually do care, chainaxes gotta be kept in working condition, no sorcerors means keeping vehicles and guns working well too

World Eaters should care, for all of the reasons that you have listed and more.

Worlds Eaters don't care because KILL MAIM BURN KILL MAIM BURN!

more in particular their apotecharies are top-notch and can churn out new legionaires faster than anybody else

I was always under the impression that there were plenty of World Eaters around because they were one of the biggest at the onset of the Heresy, and while they tended to get mown down by enemies or teamkilled by their allies they just soaked up the casualties and pushed through.

I didn't know about the Horus Heresy campaign books, that say that a few World Eaters finally got their heads together and are mass producing Berserkers from clone vats and then brain-washing them into thinking that they're centuries-old veterans, until I went looking for the source on this. Neat stuff, thanks.

[EDIT] Okay, turns out that Bodt - the planet where this happened - was razed by the Iron Hands in M31.8, and whether or not it was moved or otherwise set up elsewhere is unknown. I suppose it must have, given that there are any World Eaters still around in M42.

[Grim Portent]

World Eater's only really go all KILL MAIM BURN in battle, between them even Kharn's reasonably lucid and capable of long term planning and maintaining the basic infrastructure required to continue the Long War.

They do have anger issues and duel a lot, but they aren't exactly killing another chaos marine every single day.

Look at Zhufor for example, who was able to take control of most of the warbands on Vraks and then take control of the heretic defenses on the planet and become overall commander there and was still sane enough to flee with his warband when things went south.

[Cikomyr]

...So.... 8/9 Legions have ways to deal with it.... What was my argument about poor logistics again?

Repeat the mantra of saneness: Warhammer 40K doesn't make sense. And it's not a bug, it's a feature.

[hamishspence]

A quote from that famously honest, trustworthy and completely reliable human who never ever says or does anything misleading, Eldrad Ulthuan.

Apparently it was from some random Eldar philosopher called Uthan the Perverse - but I suppose that could be an Eldrad pseudonym

[deuterio12]

I didn't know about the Horus Heresy campaign books, that say that a few World Eaters finally got their heads together and are mass producing Berserkers from clone vats and then brain-washing them into thinking that they're centuries-old veterans, until I went looking for the source on this. Neat stuff, thanks.

You're welcome.

World Eaters almost make sense if you consider that 99% of them are freshly brainwashed clones.

World Eater's only really go all KILL MAIM BURN in battle, between them even Kharn's reasonably lucid and capable of long term planning and maintaining the basic infrastructure required to continue the Long War.

They do have anger issues and duel a lot, but they aren't exactly killing another chaos marine every single day.

Look at Zhufor for example, who was able to take control of most of the warbands on Vraks and then take control of the heretic defenses on the planet and become overall commander there and was still sane enough to flee with his warband when things went south.

You do remember how Kharn got his nickname, right?

World Eaters: The weather is freezing too much, we need to disengage and seek shelter for the night!
Kharn: Oooohhh you're feeling too cold to keep fighting? Freezing to death are we? Here, let me help you warm up with this flamer. BURN! BURN! BURN! KILL! BURN! BURN! MAIM! BURN! BURN! KILL! BURN! MAIM! BURN! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN!

Kharn kept doing it all night long, surviving the deadly cold with the warmth of his burning comrades.

And that's how the Word Bearer's legion got broken into a bunch of warbands. Not because they were being chased by loyalist scum, not because they were fighting the Emperor's Children, but simply because Kharn went "screw long term planning and basic infrastructure, BURN EVERYTHING!"

[Brookshw]

I would argue that kind of proves my point - neither of them have gotten their act together and sorted out their logistics, and as a result neither of them have overthrown the Imperium in 10,000 years of trying.

The point I was getting at was more that, despite constant infighting, Orks are fairly successful in doing what they do, the infighting in practically a boon. Heck, they're probably more successful than Chaos in this respect given that they've managed to destroy notable worlds, keep constant pressure on others, created catastrophic threats against the Imperium on multiple occassions, and still have a Destroyer moon handing over Terra. And as you noted, this is without actually trying to destroy the Imperium.

So Chaos' bickering and infighting isn't necessarily the problem I think. In fairness to Chaos it could be that the allocation of Imperium resources are directed more towards fighting Chaos meaning we're looking at an apples and oranges comparison. Or it could simply be that Chaos is a bunch of drooling idiots that don't just play with fire but want to light the building on fire after chaining themselves in.

Tl/dr: Chaos is dumb.

[druid91]

It did occur to me as soon as I'd typed it, that I had probably picked a Legion for whom that specific answer wouldn't really matter.

The Iron Warriors actually have Warpsmiths, and forgeworlds, and stuff - if anyone has ammo to spare, it's probably them.

Similarly the Black Legion, who are just huge and mega-rich. They have so much territory and man-power that they seem to do okay.

The Word Bearers wouldn't care, they'd just sic a daemon on you or stab you with their magic knives.

The World Eaters wouldn't care because KILL MAIM BURN KILL MAIM BURN etc

The Thousand Sons don't use conventional ammo and are all wizards, so bullets aren't important.

The Death Guard are probably similar - they're so screwed up that its debatable if their guns are even guns in the traditional sense.

That just leaves the Emperor's Children - who would probably get off on the sound of a gun dry-firing or something - and the Night Lords who... yeah, they're the guys who tend to get their planets blown up and go raiding for funzies.

...So.... 8/9 Legions have ways to deal with it.... What was my argument about poor logistics again?

You forgot old Alpharius.

[Wraith]

Uthan the Perverse

I did wonder if I had that exactly right, but the sentiment remains the same.
There is a name that inspires trust!

You do remember how Kharn got his nickname, right?

Of all the World Eaters, Khârn is probably the worst example of a furious, insane psychopath. Sure; prior to and during the Heresy he was every bit as nuts as the rest of his brothers, but after almost dying at the Siege of Terra he came back.... different.

There's a short story called The Eight-Fold Path where, some unspecified time after the Heresy and Skallathrax, Khârn is out taking care of business - specifically, wandering the warp murdering each of the World Eaters Captains and Chapter Masters, to make damn sure that the Legion is broken and no one of any significance can ever rise to power again.

During this story, he is put into a gladiatorial bout with a Black Rage'd Blood Angel, and most of the text is a violent and gruesome list of the things that he wants to do to the guy, biting out his throat and ripping away limbs in a flurry of gore.... But instead, he ignores that urge and simply stabs the guy in the head with a short sword, almost like Sherlock Holmes doing a "scan" to predict the best way to win.
He's absolutely ice cold when he does it, too. He's utterly mastered the rage inside of himself, and only lets it out to play when he specifically wants to do so.

So Chaos' bickering and infighting isn't necessarily the problem I think. In fairness to Chaos it could be that the allocation of Imperium resources are directed more towards fighting Chaos meaning we're looking at an apples and oranges comparison. Or it could simply be that Chaos is a bunch of drooling idiots that don't just play with fire but want to light the building on fire after chaining themselves in.

Tl/dr: Chaos is dumb.

Sounds about right to me. Chaos can't conquer the Imperium because they're badly organised and poorly funded, and even if they did manage it they would find a way to screw it up in record time.

[Platinius]

Except the Traitor Legions are not really Legions anymore. They are mostly broken up into warbands that are too small for any of the large scale stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

On a tangent, but what do people imagine Eldar sound like when they're speaking Gothic? I'm playing around with a voice-changing program to try and add some thematics to my roll20 campaign.

[Brookshw]

On a tangent, but what do people imagine Eldar sound like when they're speaking Gothic? I'm playing around with a voice-changing program to try and add some thematics to my roll20 campaign.

Normal eldar - whiny children. Though for fun, Keanu Reeves (seriously, imagine an eldar telling a space marine how to save a planet in Keanu Reeves' voice)
Deldar - Starscream

[comicshorse]

On a tangent, but what do people imagine Eldar sound like when they're speaking Gothic? I'm playing around with a voice-changing program to try and add some thematics to my roll20 campaign.

Slightly high pitched, mellow but insanely smug and condescending at the same time

[DataNinja]

On a tangent, but what do people imagine Eldar sound like when they're speaking Gothic? I'm playing around with a voice-changing program to try and add some thematics to my roll20 campaign.

For those who can't/don't deign to speak that tongue, and instead use a translator (I recall that being done in the third Path of the Eldar book), there's always to good old text-to-speech devices.

[The Glyphstone]

For those who can't/don't deign to speak that tongue, and instead use a translator (I recall that being done in the third Path of the Eldar book), there's always to good old text-to-speech devices.

Only problem with that would be sounding too similar to a Necron voice. Gotta keep them distinct.

[DataNinja]

Only problem with that would be sounding too similar to a Necron voice. Gotta keep them distinct.

Ah, yeah, that's fair.
Right, other races exist.

[The Glyphstone]

Ah, yeah, that's fair.
Right, other races exist.

If the Eldar would voluntarily admit any other race exists, its going to be the Necrons. No one holds a grudge for a hundred million years like Eldar. :)

[LCP]

On a tangent, but what do people imagine Eldar sound like when they're speaking Gothic? I'm playing around with a voice-changing program to try and add some thematics to my roll20 campaign.

Welsh. words

[Wraith]

On a tangent, but what do people imagine Eldar sound like when they're speaking Gothic? I'm playing around with a voice-changing program to try and add some thematics to my roll20 campaign.

Eldar language is spoken in a way that sounds "melodic", and written phonetically it looks/reads a lot like Welsh/Irish Gaelic. I imagine it to have a lot of drawn out and rounded vowels, which to humans sounds almost dreamy, like drawn out sighs.
I don't want to use the word "stoner" as that could give them wrong impression of them being lackadaisical or ignorant, but that sort of spaced out accent feels appropriate.

As for their actual voice, I always liked how they were portrayed in the Dawn of War games - mostly human, but with a "buzz" created by some kind of modulator. While predating Mass Effect by over a decade, they sound like Turians - it puts me in mind of someone with an extra vocal chord who usually speaks at tones and pitchs inauduble to humans and is being forced to slow themselves down.

Necrons, meanwhile, sounds like Reapers. Barely a voice at all, just a monotonous drone and completely synthetic.

Welsh.

Dang it, ninja'd

[Thragka]

Most of those example sentences are in fact completely intelligible Irish, except the first and last - perhaps those are completely intelligible Welsh.

[Wraith]

Most of those example sentences are in fact completely intelligible Irish, except the first and last - perhaps those are completely intelligible Welsh.

Google tells me that most of it is gibberish, with one or two Galician (north-western Spain) words thrown in out of context and not at all matching the given meaning. It's quite niche, so I imagine it may just be coincidence that randomly mashed together letters have made a foreign sounding word.

[Destro_Yersul]

Normal eldar - whiny children. Though for fun, Keanu Reeves (seriously, imagine an eldar telling a space marine how to save a planet in Keanu Reeves' voice)
Deldar - Starscream

Bonus points: Specifically Keanu Reaves playing Theodore Logan.

Also, Starscream Deldar is my new headcanon.

[Cheesegear]

Deldar - Starscream

My friend who plays Drukhari does an almost pitch perfect Cobra Commander. So that's how I imagine them. So it's good to know we're all on the same page.

[Grim Portent]

The DEldar in DoW were basically doing Starscream impressions anyway.

[Forum Explorer]

...Out of things they loot from their enemies, from a war.



...Off of things they loot from their enemies, from a war



...To make things to fight war better.



To eat their enemies, in a war.



Where their currency is either teef, which they get from punching each other in the mouth and to the victor goes the spoils, or trading loot they got in war, for other gear they can use to kill things, in order to loot stuff.

Orks are literally in a classic RPG Loop; Fight stuff to buy stuff to fight harder stuff.

And from fighting they get bigger, stronger, and smarter.

...They literally level up.

I feel like I've been enlightened. Everything about Orks makes even more sense now.

It's not that Ork guns can fire without bullets, it's that they just are 'forgetting' to keep track of their ammo!

[deuterio12]

Of all the World Eaters, Khârn is probably the worst example of a furious, insane psychopath. Sure; prior to and during the Heresy he was every bit as nuts as the rest of his brothers, but after almost dying at the Siege of Terra he came back.... different.

There's a short story called The Eight-Fold Path where, some unspecified time after the Heresy and Skallathrax, Khârn is out taking care of business - specifically, wandering the warp murdering each of the World Eaters Captains and Chapter Masters, to make damn sure that the Legion is broken and no one of any significance can ever rise to power again.

During this story, he is put into a gladiatorial bout with a Black Rage'd Blood Angel, and most of the text is a violent and gruesome list of the things that he wants to do to the guy, biting out his throat and ripping away limbs in a flurry of gore.... But instead, he ignores that urge and simply stabs the guy in the head with a short sword, almost like Sherlock Holmes doing a "scan" to predict the best way to win.
He's absolutely ice cold when he does it, too. He's utterly mastered the rage inside of himself, and only lets it out to play when he specifically wants to do so.

Kharn before: a crazy teamkiller.
Kharn after: still a crazy teamkiller.

Where's the difference again?
He never was one for exotic killings, he certainly didn't make it to one of the highest officer positions in the legion by being inneficient at murderizing others. And after all Kharn's lord and master Khorne just demands blood and skulls, not fancy executions. The faster Kharn kills each target, the faster he collects blood and skulls to please allmighty Khorne.