Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[LCP]

I saw this image recently and I think it's pretty relevant to discussions of how any of the terrible things the terrible people in the 40K story do are 'necessary'.



The point of the story (as much as there is a point) is not about the most effective tactics to win a futuristic space war. If it was then the fiction wouldn't be 99% about inexplicable close-up land battles involving wizards and demons.

[lord_khaine]

Let's be fair. What Warp Drive lacks in speed, it more than make up in reliability compared to the Warp.

And not just get where you want, when you want reliable.
Also "not having your balls chewed on by shark demons" :P

[Drasius]

I'm not saying the NL can't fight when they have to but that's not what is being discussed. The claim is being made that's it the NL's torturing that make their methods the best and I'm arguing it makes them the worse. To use your own example G leaves planets proud to be part of the Imperium. That will work hard and raise Imperial Legions that will fight with passion and dedication and the NL leave traumatized survivors of atrocities working badly for the same regime that unleashed horror on them

Except it is exactly what you were saying. You were saying that the NL didn't do anything but come in and torture people after the other legions had done the fighting.

It's clearly stated multiple times throughout the various books, audiodramas and source material that what makes the Night Lords so effective is their fearsome reputation - entire planets are cowed because there's a possibility that the NL are a few systems away.

The comparison between the NL and the Ultras is an interesting one, as despite the UM's working to bring everyone into their sphere of influence where possible and leaving marines behind as statesmen, they still have rebellions, they still have cult uprisings that need to be put down. The NL have none of that, 'cause all it takes is for one loyal citizen to remind the troublemakers that the NL aren't going to be mighty pleased to have to turn their crusade around and not only do the dissenters think twice, they're also promptly beaten to death by everyone else who doesn't want the NL anywhere near them.

The point you're trying to make is that the NL methods don't leave the worlds they conquor particularly productive compared to a world fully integrated by the likes of Gulliman or Lorgar or Vulkan. That's not same point others are making - that the fastest way to compliance is to threaten to do something like skin an entire city worth of people, then drop them onto one of your other cities from low orbit, while they're still alive, then broadcast that to anyone else on the planet. Night Lords are the overpowering threat that only holds sway while a planet is threatened by them - the thing is, the crusade only ran for ~200 years, and any place the NL took was traumatised by what happened for long enough for the Imperium to establish a presence on the world and promise to never the the NL come back ... unless people start talkin' **** 'bout the Imperium. Would it have worked longer term? Maybe, maybe not, but for the timeline that we've been given, it worked very well, better than most other legions methods.

And I say again, what results ? So far all we have is a vague quote from the Lexicanum, that I provided, saying the NL's worked best cleaning up after other Legions

The results that say that their methods are supported by the Emperor? Despite all the terrible things they do, they do it to ensure peace (during the great crusade anyway). When the Emperor needs to send a message that rebellion will not be tolerated, He sends the Night Lords. Their record of no/minimal reoffenders for rebellion speaks for itself.

Realistic. I'm not sure what history you've been reading but I can't think of any successful regime that employed tactics like the NL

I didn't say a regime, I said Legion. If you end up with a bunch of superhuman killers in nigh invincible power armour issued with weaponry that, at the sidearm level, is capable of obliterating most defenders into unidentifiable meat chunks, who are then given almost free reign to conquor planet after planet, well, yeah, I'd be surprised if most of them didn't turn out to be Night Lord-esque.

So rather than spend a few extra weeks taking the planet you decimate the population and infrastructure. Leave unwilling and traumatized subjects for the next 50-100 years of appalling production. And in the end the NL lesson will be forgotten anyway

That's what the Emperor wanted - speed of conquest. Once he had the galaxy under his dominion, he could do whatever he wanted. You have to remember, the Imperium conquored or absorbed 2,000,000 worlds in just over 200 years. Once a world is in the Imperium, regardless of how that happened, it's there for good. Worlds that don't come willingly are going to be sore losers regardless, there will always be a huge amount of resentment there because you've just slaughtered a bunch of people and bombed their stuff. Might as well make 'em too scared to even contemplate rebelling again until the people who remember being "free" are dead and gone and the only ones left are the ones who have been born into the Imperium and don't know any other way. At that point, you've got control of the planetary government and can go about your rebuilding efforts and peacekeeping in a more populace freiendly way while also ensuring that you rewrite the history books to show why the previous occupants deserved what they got and how much better off everyone is now.

[Grim Portent]

Hell if the World Eaters killing entire planets down to every last man, woman and child and then having new humans shipped in to live on the charnel world they left behind was considered acceptable to the Emperor I don't see how anyone could think he had issues with Curze's methods.

[Brookshw]

Hell if the World Eaters killing entire planets down to every last man, woman and child and then having new humans shipped in to live on the charnel world they left behind was considered acceptable to the Emperor I don't see how anyone could think he had issues with Curze's methods.

Time's like this I wonder why I invest so much in this IP.

[Platinius]

Hell if the World Eaters killing entire planets down to every last man, woman and child and then having new humans shipped in to live on the charnel world they left behind was considered acceptable to the Emperor I don't see how anyone could think he had issues with Curze's methods.

Population size is probably an issue.
Curze annihalted Nostromo, a high tech hive world with many billions of inhabitants. Unacceptable.
If the World Eaters "only" kill a few million low tech people and then import a few dozen million compliant and thankful settlers which become the basis for a future loyal population, well, that might be harsh but acceptable. The irony is, if you bring so many settlers that the natives become a small minority, the natives' grievances become a minor issue anyway and the killing them a waste of boltrounds.


PS: In 40k Curze's terror methods work, because all the Imperial worlds' reigning class is deeply rooted in and formed by Imperial culture so they thoroughly know happens to traitors in the Imperium of Man. In 30k, the conquered worlds had not bathed in that culture long enough, in part because that culture of compliance, hate and fear didn't exist yet. And just to make it clear, that still doesn't stop entitled and power hungry politicians and nobles from trying anyway.

[Thragka]

I saw this image recently and I think it's pretty relevant to discussions of how any of the terrible things the terrible people in the 40K story do are 'necessary'.



The point of the story (as much as there is a point) is not about the most effective tactics to win a futuristic space war. If it was then the fiction wouldn't be 99% about inexplicable close-up land battles involving wizards and demons.

are you Slaanesh because this is perfection

[comicshorse]

Except it is exactly what you were saying. You were saying that the NL didn't do anything but come in and torture people after the other legions had done the fighting.

Well as you just quoted me saying that I wasn't saying that and in fact not saying that I'm not sure where you're getting this from

It's clearly stated multiple times throughout the various books, audiodramas and source material that what makes the Night Lords so effective is their fearsome reputation - entire planets are cowed because there's a possibility that the NL are a few systems away.

Cite me some. Please. people keep saying this but nothing ever gets cited
I'd also point you to Platinus's comments about exactly how far the Night Lords reputation can reach given the communication set-up in the Imperium

The comparison between the NL and the Ultras is an interesting one, as despite the UM's working to bring everyone into their sphere of influence where possible and leaving marines behind as statesmen, they still have rebellions, they still have cult uprisings that need to be put down. The NL have none of that, 'cause all it takes is for one loyal citizen to remind the troublemakers that the NL aren't going to be mighty pleased to have to turn their crusade around and not only do the dissenters think twice, they're also promptly beaten to death by everyone else who doesn't want the NL anywhere near them.

Well as I've pointed out Nostramo puts a lie to the whole Night Lord pacified worlds would never rebel. Also please cite three of the worlds that rebelled against the UM cause this is another of those 'everybody knows' that never actually gets proved

The point you're trying to make is that the NL methods don't leave the worlds they conquor particularly productive compared to a world fully integrated by the likes of Gulliman or Lorgar or Vulkan. That's not same point others are making - that the fastest way to compliance

No people AREN'T saying that. They are saying the NL way is 'the best'. Fastest is not the same as best.
Even assuming its the fastest. The problem with the NL technique is they ALWAYS use the same technique. " Hey a world that can be taken by a show of force in a day, what do we do ? Skin the population of a major city on every continent for weeks " .Because it isn't about being 'efficient' its about being monsters

The results that say that their methods are supported by the Emperor? Despite all the terrible things they do, they do it to ensure peace (during the great crusade anyway). When the Emperor needs to send a message that rebellion will not be tolerated, He sends the Night Lords. Their record of no/minimal reoffenders for rebellion speaks for itself.

But they don't have that record. As I have pointed out many times

I didn't say a regime, I said Legion. If you end up with a bunch of superhuman killers in nigh invincible power armour issued with weaponry that, at the sidearm level, is capable of obliterating most defenders into unidentifiable meat chunks, who are then given almost free reign to conquor planet after planet, well, yeah, I'd be surprised if most of them didn't turn out to be Night Lord-esque.

That's hardly realistic then and why would they when they can do it more efficiently.

Worlds that don't come willingly are going to be sore losers regardless, there will always be a huge amount of resentment there because you've just slaughtered a bunch of people and bombed their stuff.

There is a world of difference between conquered us in war and performed sickening atrocities on millions of unarmed civilians. Sometimes even after they had surrendered

At that point, you've got control of the planetary government and can go about your rebuilding efforts and peacekeeping in a more populace freiendly way while also ensuring that you rewrite the history books to show why the previous occupants deserved what they got and how much better off everyone is now.

So if you erase the NL's atrocities from history how are they acting as a warning to not rebel ?


Sorry if this is a bit rushed on my way out

[Artanis]

Well as I've pointed out Nostramo puts a lie to the whole Night Lord pacified worlds would never rebel. Also please cite three of the worlds that rebelled against the UM cause this is another of those 'everybody knows' that never actually gets proved

Wait, I thought that the Night Lords never pacified Nostramo, it was Curze himself who did so personally before the Emperor even found him. Also, I may be wrong, but I thought that Nostramo didn't actually rebel, but just turned back into a crime-ridden cesspit again, prompting Curze to go blow it up in disgust.

So a planet that the Night Lords didn't pacify staying loyal (if rowdy and crappy) until it exploded counts as a post-NL rebellion?

[Cheesegear]

Wait, I thought that the Night Lords never pacified Nostramo

Nostramo was a hellhole. Curze ruled it with an iron fist. But it was never officially declared Pacified, in the way that Pacified planets, are.

When Curze was asked to make a Legion, he rounded up all the criminals and ****heads and took them off world. At last the world was saved, ey Fall Out Boy?
However, people quickly realised that with the coming of the Emperor, is was actually possible to leave Nostramo. However, turns out, the only way to get off the planet was to become a criminal ****head, that way they'd join Curze's Legion and leave Nostramo. Whilst people who were 'good' stayed in the hellhole and died. Still, the planet was never quite declared Pacified. Nominally under Imperial rule, sure. But it was far from Pacified.
Curze's way of 'Pacifying' the planet, was to remove the violent 10 year-olds into his Legion. But he never actually put an end to the violence, like he did on every other planet. Because if the violence on Nostramo ended (like he did on every other planet), he wouldn't have any more recruits for his Legion. Killers breed Killers breed Legionnaires.
While Curze hated the idea, it was still necessary. GrimDark.

Eventually Curze came home after being away for so long (because he had a side-quest with Dorn, where he tried to join the good team, which didn't end well, because Dorn said Lawful Evil is still Evil). The violence and corruption was so bad, that Curze couldn't even be bothered trying anymore. One thing that Nostromans didn't expect, was it to happen to them. After all, Curze had let it happen for long. Clearly he must be okay with it? However, Curze realised he was wrong; Actions must have consequences - even for his own people. Removal of the threat of punishment led to unmitigated disaster. By showing what happened to Nostramo's populace when Curze's will wasn't enforced, justified what Curze did on every other planet. Nostramo, in effect, may be considered the exception that proves the rule. If Curze didn't do what he does, how do you know planets wont fall to chaos - lower case, that is?

Additionally, by blowing us Nostramo Night Haunter was able to free himself from Curze. That was a whole thing.

So a planet that the Night Lords didn't pacify staying loyal (if rowdy and crappy) until it exploded counts as a post-NL rebellion?

Apparently.

[Drasius]

Well as you just quoted me saying that I wasn't saying that and in fact not saying that I'm not sure where you're getting this from

I quoted you to respond to a point, that's how this works. The below:

Indicating the Night Lords weren't actually doing the heavy lifting of the pacification merely turning up to torture a few thousands of people to drive the message home. What message is debatable
...
That's only effective BECAUSE all the real work had already been, by his brothers. Torturing unarmed civilians isn't difficult. And Curze is doing a Job, the fact that he picks the most monstrous way to do it has nothing to do with it being efficient and everything to do with him being a monster.
...
Nope he's the guy called in to tidy up after all the works done. ( Hmmm its not far from that to they send in the Night Lords because the original legion are off somewhere else doing the difficult work and can't be spared. I wonder if a mind as paranoid as Curze considered that)

Certainly gives the impression that you think that the NL's only ever ran around torturing people and weren't involved in any fighting of substance, and that's just not the case.

Cite me some. Please. people keep saying this but nothing ever gets cited
I'd also point you to Platinus's comments about exactly how far the Night Lords reputation can reach given the communication set-up in the Imperium

Literally any book involving the Night Lords mentions it, even the 40k stuff. I'm away from my books at the moment, so I'm not going to be able to cite you page and verse, but if you've read any NL book, you'd already know this. IIRC, in ... Vulkan Lives? there's a flashback specifically of the Sallies and the NL's getting all antsy 'cause the Salamanders were dithering about and the NL's looked at each other, shrugged, podded in and made an example out of everyone they found, with the rest of the planet surrendering in minutes. Again, IIRC, Vulkan goes off his chops about how there was a better way and Curze simply asks how many would die in a long, drawn out, traditional war. Vulkan says something along the lines of not as many as you butchered and then Curze reminds Vulkan that his calculations include the losses on his side as well, and a snide comment that Vulkan cares more about the enemy combatants than his own soldiers and allies. Curze also points out that by killing a bunch of scrubs here in a brutal manner, 10 other worlds will ascede to compliance without a shot being fired, saving millions of lives, making him more of a humanitarian than Vulkan is - all done with a smirk of course, because Curze knows how much pain it will cause Vulkan to wonder if Curze has a point.

The comms in the 30k setting aren't that bad, the warp is mostly calm('ish) and there's still plenty of trade and such going around. Besides, the Imperium will undoubtedly use some of the footage in reports of it's glorious victories on other worlds, along with controlled rumour "leaks" to get the job done.

Well as I've pointed out Nostramo puts a lie to the whole Night Lord pacified worlds would never rebel. Also please cite three of the worlds that rebelled against the UM cause this is another of those 'everybody knows' that never actually gets proved

Unremembered Empire has Ultramar itself have pockets of resistance and chaos cults, The Osiris Rebellion has a whole cluster rebel against the ultras who pacified them, the Nightfane series has a number of traitor stations helping the word bearers and alpha legion do their thing. You have to remember, the Ultras are the poster boys, their failures aren't going to be pushed to the forefront.

Nostromo thought they were somehow immune to Curzes shenanigans 'cause it was his home and he'd been busy handing out "justice" elsewhere. When he got back and found the proverbial spilt milk, he decided to clean up the only way he knew how - killing everyone who had anything to do with it as a lesson to others.

No people AREN'T saying that. They are saying the NL way is 'the best'. Fastest is not the same as best.
Even assuming its the fastest. The problem with the NL technique is they ALWAYS use the same technique. " Hey a world that can be taken by a show of force in a day, what do we do ? Skin the population of a major city on every continent for weeks " .Because it isn't about being 'efficient' its about being monsters

Fastest is best when the Emperor asks for fastest (and he does, there's quite a few scenes in the earlier books where Horus talks about how many worlds conquored being a measuring stick for how well the legions are going, plus legions getting sanctioned for the lack of speed in which they achieve compliance).

The NL's don't always go full Night Haunter, but it's the only time you hear about it, 'cause almost nobody wants to hear a story about the struggles Curze faces when he has to send one of his more eloquent legionaries down to negotiate a surrender before a shot has been fired or to welcome a planet back on first contact peacefully. You're falling into a common trap of flanderising the legions to the point where they ONLY do the thing they're know for.

But they don't have that record. As I have pointed out many times

You ask for citations, you're going to have to provide them too.

That's hardly realistic then and why would they when they can do it more efficiently.

Hardly realistic? That's the whole point of the setting (the superhuman killers in power armour, not being realistic [or unrealistic]). There isn't a more efficient way, that's the point we're making - this is what works in 30k.

There is a world of difference between conquered us in war and performed sickening atrocities on millions of unarmed civilians. Sometimes even after they had surrendered

Yeah, the second way gets other planets to surrender before they shoot your guys. The first way leads to insurrections and rebellions by disgruntled patriots.

So if you erase the NL's atrocities from history how are they acting as a warning to not rebel ?

The NL's are the stick, the planetary government is the carrot. You have your friendly rememberancers spin you up a story about how the bad guys from murderdeathkilltown totally deserved to be killed in nasty ways, and that while the Imperium has saved you from the devious and nefarious ways of governor mustache twirler the thrid, they also have the Night Lords on speed dial in case anyone else has succumed to crazy ideas, like, ya know, not belonging to the Imperium.

Nostramo was a hellhole. Curze ruled it with an iron fist. But it was never officially declared Pacified, in the way that Pacified planets, are.

When Curze was asked to make a Legion, he rounded up all the criminals and ****heads and took them off world. At last the world was saved, ey Fall Out Boy?
However, people quickly realised that the only way to get off the planet was to become a criminal ****head, that way they'd join the Legion and leave Nostramo. Whilst people who were 'good' stayed in the hellhole and died. Still the planet was never Pacified.
Curze's way of 'Pacifying' the planet, was to remove the violent 10 year-olds into his Legion. But he never actually put an end to the violence, like he did on every other planet. Because if the violence on Nostramo ended (like he did on every other planet), he wouldn't have any more recruits for his Legion. Killers breed Killers breed Legionnaires.
While Curze hated the idea, it was still necessary. GrimDark.

Eventually Curze came home after being away for so long. The violence and corruption was so bad, that Curze couldn't even be bothered trying anymore. One thing that Nostromans didn't expect, was it to happen to them. After all, Curze had let it happen for long. Clearly he must be okay with it? However, Curze realised he was wrong; Actions must have consequences - even for his own people. By showing what happened to Nostramo's populace when Curze's will wasn't enforced, justified what Curze did on every other planet. Nostramo, in effect, may be considered the exception that proves the rule. If Curze didn't do what he does, how do you know planets wont fall to chaos - lower case, that is?

Additionally, by blowing us Nostramo Night Haunter was able to free himself from Curze. Also, Curze was a precog. So everything he did was by design.

I thought that Nostromo started giving the legion their best, but as they ran out and as the threat of Curze coming back waned and they fell back into being a hive of scum and villiany, they ended up sending him their convicts to get rid of the ones too debased for even Nostroman standards. I'm almost positive that there's a short story about it, but can't recall the name for the life of me.

[LansXero]

I thought that Nostromo started giving the legion their best, but as they ran out and as the threat of Curze coming back waned and they fell back into being a hive of scum and villiany, they ended up sending him their convicts to get rid of the ones too debased for even Nostroman standards. I'm almost positive that there's a short story about it, but can't recall the name for the life of me.

Their best being the gang members who were still able to function within a society and elevate themselves; this doesnt mean they were not murderers, sadists and criminals. Just that it wasnt all they were, unlike the latest batches where they were sending just savages and the equivalent of hive gangers.

[Brookshw]

Their best being the gang members who were still able to function within a society and elevate themselves; this doesnt mean they were not murderers, sadists and criminals. Just that it wasnt all they were, unlike the latest batches where they were sending just savages and the equivalent of hive gangers.

Not sure where it fell in the recruiting standards, but I recall a flash back in....Pharos(?) involving a NL thinking back to his preindoctrination days. Specifically, he and another future NL had killed and eaten a smaller kid (the future NLs being young in the flash back). In a strange moment of empathy, while the two were watching some fireworks, the NL wonders if the person they just ate would have enjoyed the fireworks too, had sort of a guilty vibe to it. The other NL to be had no such feelings. Not really sure how you degrade from eating people, I guess maybe to no recruits feeling guilt?

[Kris Strife]

Each primach had their own failings, none are without a black mark on their report card. If Malcador is to be believed, that's how it was planned to be.

What about Sanguinius? Is it just the wings?

[Platinius]

I was under the same impression that in the beginning of the Nostroman recruitment, only deeply honourable young men with insane fighting talent were chosen and it slowly degraded into just fighting talent, the more vicious the better.

When Cruze destroyed Nostromo, it sounds like he was lashing out, partially out of frustraion of constantly being morally getting his methods put into question by what are definitely is equals, having to terrorize people into subordination in general (he must care for the people for him to do this in the first place, but he also mustn't allow himself to care/feel to much or else he will break down) a huge sense of betrayal and just being plain tired of "carefully" terrorizing the bad behaviour out of his homeworld.

Curze is a deeply conflicted and flawed character. ...I like that. It makes him interesting. It is the reason we talk about him so much

[Cheesegear]

When Cruze destroyed Nostromo, it sounds like he was lashing out, partially out of frustraion of constantly being morally getting his methods put into question...

Curze: Tell me what I'm doing is wrong. Punish me.
Dorn: I can't do that.
Curze: If I'm wrong. You must put me down. If you, Dorn, can't punish me. Then no-one can.
Dorn: But you're not wrong per se. Besides, I can't fight my brothers...
Curze: ...Then you lose. Good is Dumb.
*Curze proceeds to savagely maul Dorn, Batman-ing his way off The Phalanx*

*Curze arrives back at Nostramo*
Curze: I ****en knew it. Look at this ****. See what happens when people no longer fear me?
Night Haunter: ...Just fix it, same way you do everything else.
Curze: You know what good buddy, you're right.
Night Haunter: ...Wanna let me take it from here?
Curze: Do I have a choice?
Night Haunter: You've never had a choice.
*Blows up Nostramo*

Dorn: ...Curze was right. **** me.
*Dorn proceeds to stare at a wall as he contemplates his failures*

[Wraith]

What about Sanguinius? Is it just the wings?

Sanguinius also had the gift of prophecy - he saw visions of what the future could be, including the moment of his own death.

This meant that, of all the Primarchs, he was the one who knew doubt the most keenly. He knew when and (more or less) how he would die, and he was constantly questioning everything leading up to it. Was it definitely going to happen? Could he change it? Would he be able to face the moment when it came? What would he leave behind? Why was his father - who must surely have known the same thing (spoiler: He did) - allowing it to happen?

It made him vulnerable to manipulation by people like Guilliman, and it wasn't until very late in the Heresy that Sanguinius was able to steel himself to face his fate and to do it... I won't say bravely as that implies he felt fear... but confidently and secure in the knowledge that he trusted his father, and vice versa.

When Cruze destroyed Nostromo, it sounds like he was lashing out, partially out of frustration of constantly being morally getting his methods put into question by what are definitely is equals, having to terrorize people into subordination in general (he must care for the people for him to do this in the first place, but he also mustn't allow himself to care/feel to much or else he will break down) a huge sense of betrayal and just being plain tired of "carefully" terrorizing the bad behaviour out of his homeworld.:

There's a definite sense that, whatever else Curze said about the destruction of Nostromo - that they deserved it for rebelling, that it had poisoned his Legion, that as his place of birth it had made him into a monster - destroying it broke his heart.
It was right (by his ethic) that the planet be punished for rebelling, and because as his birthplace it had made him into a monster that terrorised the galaxy... But it represented a failure of his own making, and he had to punish himself for that failing.

His entire creed, more so than any Primarch, was the absolute conviction of his principles; that failure had to be punished, not matter how painful it was to enact and how ruthless you had to be to see it through, for the common good of all.

He taught that lesson to his Legion and they misunderstood, believing that what he meant was that brutality was the best tool for domination, which was the ultimate goal.
He taught that lesson to Dorn, who feared it but eventually accepted that it was true - he had to embrace ruthlessness and commit terrible acts, because if he didn't then he would lose to men who would.
Curze embodied that lesson in his own death - HE was the monster who had committed terrible acts and maimed his brothers, and so it was justice that he himself should have been executed for his crimes, even though he believed that they were worth committing.

To allow himself to go unpunished would have been the greatest hypocrisy, and would have undermined his entire philosophy if he wasn't strong enough to see it through - that even Primarchs cannot be above retribution and justice.

In some ways, the destruction of Nostromo had multiple uses - to punish himself for failing to keep his own homeworld in line, to punish his Legion for allowing themselves to be so corrupted, and also to create an atrocity that would force the Imperium to come after him and punish him, symbolically for all of the other atrocities that he had committed and had otherwise escaped censure for. Curze was expecting retribution long before he maimed Rogal Dorn; that was just the first time that he actively invited it.

Curze: Tell me what I'm doing is wrong. Punish me.
Dorn: I can't do that.
Curze: If I'm wrong. You must put me down. If you, Dorn, can't punish me. Then no-one can.
Dorn: But you're not wrong per se. Besides, I can't fight my brothers...
Curze: ...Then you lose. Good is Dumb.
*Curze proceeds to savagely maul Dorn, Batman-ing his way off The Phalanx*

In many ways, I think that Curze was weirdly grateful for Lion El'Johnson. It was the Dark Angel Primarch who was the one to step up and take matters into his own hands, hunting Curze like an animal and intending to put him down when everyone else would only criticise or ignore the situation but never to DO anything. He might even have managed it too, were it not for Guilliman screwing things up with his stupid Imperium Secundus, when "the Emperor's Executioner" Leman Russ didn't even realise that there was a problem....

...The more I think about El'Johnson, despite how much his own books sucked, the more I realise what a great character he is. Guilliman hates him because Johnson just completely disregards everything that Guilliman says, instead of allowing himself to be distracted by it like Alpharius or obsessed with it like Lorgar. He's also the only one throughout the Heresy who seems to be doing the right thing in the eyes of the reader - calling out Russ for being an *******, calling out Guilliman for being a usurper, going after Curze for being a monster....I really hope he gets a good novel some day soon, he needs the PR boost.

[Cheesegear]

There's a definite sense that, whatever else Curze said about the destruction of Nostromo - that they deserved it for rebelling, that it had poisoned his Legion, that as his place of birth it had made him into a monster - destroying it broke his heart.

More accurately, destroying Nostramo broke his heart(s) so badly that it shattered his psyche, allowing Night Haunter to become the dominant personality.

and also to create an atrocity that would force the Imperium to come after him and punish him...

And even after being captured in Imperium Secundus, his brothers still don't execute him because Team Good is still [w]ussies. Which is exactly Curze's point, and thanks to causality (Curze fights Sanguinius - both of them precogs - and the outcome is great), Curze will just escape.
Speaking of...IIRC, Curze also monologues at Sanguinius too.

EDIT: If the Nostraman Planetary Governor was still paying his Imperial taxes (by trodding on people), did the planet ever rebel?

[Wraith]

More accurately, destroying Nostramo broke his heart(s) so badly that it shattered his psyche, allowing Night Haunter to become the dominant personality.

I must admit, I've always thought that the turning point was when Fulgrim "betrayed" him to Dorn, which ultimately led to the attacking of Dorn and Curze's eating of his heart. There's a lot of biblical imagery going on at that point - Fulgrim would later become a serpent-like Daemon not unlike classical images of Satan, where as Curze vs. Dorn is brother-on-brother bloodshed not unlike Cain and Abel.
It's also somewhat reminiscent of Horus tricking Russ into attacking Magnus, causing one of them to turn traitor without means of reparation - They're watershed moments and I don't think that was accidental, because that's ultimately what the Heresy is about - brothers fighting brothers for the attention of their father.

The destruction of Nostromo, I think, wasn't the emergence of Night Haunter - it was just his first "solo" atrocity which proved that Curze was entirely gone, because he truly had nothing to return to.

[Cheesegear]

I must admit, I've always thought that the turning point was when Fulgrim "betrayed" him to Dorn, which ultimately led to the attacking of Dorn and Curze's eating of his heart.

I don't...Hmm...
I think the turning point was the act of attacking Dorn himself (or, at least, the instant before it happened). I think not being punished, by the one person he thought who could, undermined Curze's entire moral being.
Not only was Curze not punished, but he was proven right by the brother he respected the most, a.k.a; The Emperor's Praetorian. If Dorn can't dispense justice, then who can?
...The only person that can truly punish Curze, is the only person Curze ever truly trusted - himself.
Enter The Night Haunter.

[Drasius]

What about Sanguinius? Is it just the wings?

Check out how he handles the red thirst in his marines. It's in Fear to Tread I think, where Horus watches him off one of his fallen sons, then Sanguinus realises that he somehow didn't hear a terminator armour clad primarch sneak up on him that Horus saw what he did and explains, begging him not to tell anyone, especially not the Emperor.

Also, he's a filthy mutant, because, ya know, wings.

It's also somewhat reminiscent of Horus tricking Russ into attacking Magnus, causing one of them to turn traitor without means of reparation - They're watershed moments and I don't think that was accidental, because that's ultimately what the Heresy is about - brothers fighting brothers for the attention of their father.

There was no tricking of Russ at all, everything that happened was on purpose.

[deuterio12]

There's a definite sense that, whatever else Curze said about the destruction of Nostromo - that they deserved it for rebelling, that it had poisoned his Legion, that as his place of birth it had made him into a monster - destroying it broke his heart.
It was right (by his ethic) that the planet be punished for rebelling, and because as his birthplace it had made him into a monster that terrorised the galaxy... But it represented a failure of his own making, and he had to punish himself for that failing.

His entire creed, more so than any Primarch, was the absolute conviction of his principles; that failure had to be punished, not matter how painful it was to enact and how ruthless you had to be to see it through, for the common good of all.

He taught that lesson to his Legion and they misunderstood, believing that what he meant was that brutality was the best tool for domination, which was the ultimate goal.
He taught that lesson to Dorn, who feared it but eventually accepted that it was true - he had to embrace ruthlessness and commit terrible acts, because if he didn't then he would lose to men who would.
Curze embodied that lesson in his own death - HE was the monster who had committed terrible acts and maimed his brothers, and so it was justice that he himself should have been executed for his crimes, even though he believed that they were worth committing.

To allow himself to go unpunished would have been the greatest hypocrisy, and would have undermined his entire philosophy if he wasn't strong enough to see it through - that even Primarchs cannot be above retribution and justice.

Your presence does not surprise me Assassin. I have known of you since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication.

Curze calling the emprah's hypocrisy since 2e.

[bluntpencil]

"I merely punished those who had wronged..."

I call shenanigans on Curze there. Skinning people in the vicinity of criminals is not punishing only those who did wrong. Butchering children and playing their screams over the global vox-net isn't punishing anyone that did anything wrong. And is utterly mental.

Also, Sevatar has it right every time he throws shade on him for his methods.

[Wraith]

I don't...Hmm...
I think the turning point was the act of attacking Dorn himself (or, at least, the instant before it happened). I think not being punished, by the one person he thought who could, undermined Curze's entire moral being.

Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. Fulgrim was the catalyst for the confrontation, but it could still have gone either way depending on Dorn's response.
It's not Dorn's fault - he knew that Curze was an *******, but he didn't know that he was on the verge of a full blown breakdown. That's entirely on Curze.

But... Had Dorn responded with anger rather than cold disapproval, had he accused Curze and demanded contrition rather than telling him it was Dad's problem to sort out.... Curze could still have been saved. But he didn't, and Curze gave up trying, and the rest is history.

There was no tricking of Russ at all, everything that happened was on purpose.

It was a "trick" in the sense that Horus lied to Russ and made the situation sound far worse than it was. Had Russ landed on Prospero, calmly stated that Dad was upset and Magnus needed to come to Terra with him, Magnus would have gone willingly. Instead Horus got him riled up and went in literally guns-blazing, which is what forced the Thousand Sons to fight back and from there everything went irreparably south.

Hashtag Russ Fired First.

Curze calling the emprah's hypocrisy since 2e.

There's some debate over whether or not it was the Emperor who sent assassins after Curze. His death occurred some time after the Siege of Terra ended, which meant that Dad was already pretty corpsy and Malcador was also gone. It feels to me very much like a decision made by someone like Valdor, unless Dorn REALLY pulled himself up to the task. He was almost willing to fight Guilliman after all, so it might not have been out of the question.

Still, either way; the Imperium had definitely become what Curze had expected of it and they were more than happy to adopt his tactics of control-by-fear.

I call shenanigans on Curze there. Skinning people in the vicinity of criminals is not punishing only those who did wrong. Butchering children and playing their screams over the global vox-net isn't punishing anyone that did anything wrong. And is utterly mental.

I can see a twisted sort of logic there. Curze was big on punishing people collectively - if your neighbour was a criminal and you had done nothing about it, then that made you complicit in their crimes. With such grotesque demonstrations he was making an example of everyone even vaguely involved to show everyone else just how easy it was to fall short of judgement, so you better try extra hard to be good.

As a philosophy it's clearly and patently insane, and would later be adopted wholesale by the Imperium of Man circa M33 and beyond.

Also, Sevatar has it right every time he throws shade on him for his methods.

I like it when Sevatar throws shade on anyone. What happens to him after the Siege is one of the three things that I'm really looking forward to in the new cycle of novels; that, Khârn's death and resurrection and what really happens at Caliban.

[deuterio12]

It was a "trick" in the sense that Horus lied to Russ and made the situation sound far worse than it was. Had Russ landed on Prospero, calmly stated that Dad was upset and Magnus needed to come to Terra with him, Magnus would have gone willingly. Instead Horus got him riled up and went in literally guns-blazing, which is what forced the Thousand Sons to fight back and from there everything went irreparably south.

Hashtag Russ Fired First.

In orbit, despite the insinuations of Horus Lupercal, Leman Russ conceded that he would not unleash the full destructive
capabilities of his battle fleet without at least allowing his brother a chance to explain
his apparent madness. Broadcasting from the grand flagship of the Legio Custodes,
the Oriflamme, the Vox-Imperiosa -the sanctioned voice of the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's council of Terra- proclaimed
the writ borne by the fleet and called upon the Thousand Sons and upon Magnus
himself to answer for the crimes of which they were accused, to render himself unto
the fleet or face the wrath of the Emperor. Yet, there was no answer. The fleet waited as Valdor entreated for further time with
Russ on behalf of the accused Primarch to await a reply, but as Russ' fury steadily grew and as the ships of the fleet sat idle in space,
still there was no answer. After almost a standard hour without word, neither to ask
forgiveness of to threaten resistance, nor even to acknowledge the fleet's presence,
Leman Russ called an end to the efforts at diplomacy. Incensed that Magnus would
offer such an insult to his own brother, Russ gave the word and unleashed the firepower
of the assembled Censure Host's fleet against the helpless planet below.

In the most recent book, Russ does make a last ditch attempt at talking things out when he reaches at Prospero, but Magnus just too emo to even say anything.

There's some debate over whether or not it was the Emperor who sent assassins after Curze. His death occurred some time after the Siege of Terra ended, which meant that Dad was already pretty corpsy and Malcador was also gone. It feels to me very much like a decision made by someone like Valdor, unless Dorn REALLY pulled himself up to the task. He was almost willing to fight Guilliman after all, so it might not have been out of the question.

Still, either way; the Imperium had definitely become what Curze had expected of it and they were more than happy to adopt his tactics of control-by-fear.

I can see a twisted sort of logic there. Curze was big on punishing people collectively - if your neighbour was a criminal and you had done nothing about it, then that made you complicit in their crimes. With such grotesque demonstrations he was making an example of everyone even vaguely involved to show everyone else just how easy it was to fall short of judgement, so you better try extra hard to be good.

As a philosophy it's clearly and patently insane, and would later be adopted wholesale by the Imperium of Man circa M33 and beyond.

Thing is, the Imperium had already adoped said philosophy from the start.

Russ decides that every last woman and child in Prospero must die screaming just because of Magnus.

Mortarion started his command by ordering his own legion to kill 10% of themselves and then to unleash biologic weapons left, right and center.

Angron and the World Eaters weren't exactly known for their mercy nor self control.

The emprah himself only conquered Terra after brutally crushing all opposition, including sending his custodes as assassins with commands such as "scream for help and your whole family dies too."

And of course it was also the emprah that decided he needed not only one but four kinds of super assassins on top of super mutant soldiers, including berserk assassins that explode when they die.

[Wraith]

In the most recent book, Russ does make a last ditch attempt at talking things out when he reaches at Prospero, but Magnus just too emo to even say anything.

Then that's a direct contradiction of A Thousand Sons, which said that the first thing that the Thousand Sons knew about any it was when the bombs started falling.
Even Ahriman - Magnus' #2 who was running the entire Legion while Magnus brooded in his tower - was completely blindsided by the Wolves' violent arrival, so saying that Russ entreated the Thousand Sons to surrender is inaccurate.

In fact the second paragraph you quoted mostly supports what I was saying - Valdor was the one trying to calm things down and asking for more time, whereas Russ got himself more and more angry until he finally snapped. He just wasn't irate when he first arrived on the scene, but the combination Horus' warnings and Magnus' perceived insult pushed him that way.

Mortarion started his command by ordering his own legion to kill 10% of themselves and then to unleash biologic weapons left, right and center.

You have Mortarion mixed up with Perturabo, I think. Mort didn't have a decimation, and I don't think there's any suggestion that he used bio-/nuclear weapons on non-military targets until after he had Fallen.

Angron and the World Eaters weren't exactly known for their mercy nor self control.

Angron was the Emperor's butcher - his role was a specific and deliberate admission that sometimes brutality needed to be employed in specific situations. I don't think that is the same thing as, or condoning of, the ideal that extreme violence should ALWAYS be the FIRST preferred method.

The emprah himself only conquered Terra after brutally crushing all opposition, including sending his custodes as assassins with commands such as "scream for help and your whole family dies too."

Citation needed on that last line. Similarly, I remember that a lot of the Unification War was about how many times the Emperor offered to let the other Warlords join his side in peaceful capitulation - some of them did, some of them only faked it while lying to him, and some rebuked him violently.
Violence was never his primary method and frankly, when he DID employ it he was far more merciful than those he used it upon.

And of course it was also the emprah that decided he needed not only one but four kinds of super assassins on top of super mutant soldiers, including berserk assassins that explode when they die.

The Emperor condoned the use of Assassins, but it was run by Malcador who openly admitted getting his own hands dirty so that the Emperor didn't have to. I'm not sure that's enough to specifically say that the Emperor personally approved of Eversors, but at the same time I think there's a strong argument that employing Assassins to kill a handful of people rather than sending the Astartes to kill ALL of the people is in-character with the Emperor's intention to refrain from killing needlessly.

Of course in some examples - the Thunder Warriors - his idea of "need" differs from ours, but on the whole the Emperor was a lot better than the Imperium ever was.

[deuterio12]

Then that's a direct contradiction of A Thousand Sons, which said that the first thing that the Thousand Sons knew about any it was when the bombs started falling.
Even Ahriman - Magnus' #2 who was running the entire Legion while Magnus brooded in his tower - was completely blindsided by the Wolves' violent arrival, so saying that Russ entreated the Thousand Sons to surrender is inaccurate.

Your version doesn't make much sense since:
a) How would the thousand sons simply miss the whole space furries fleet+assorted support entering their orbit at their very homeworld?
b) If they only noticed it when the bombs were falling, then too bad, everybody except maybe Magnus would be dead right there. And Russ would've had zero reason to come down, just keep bombing until the planet cracks, no personal duel needed. Whereas in Inferno the fact they see it coming allows them to rise a super psychic shield that protects them from the bombardment and forces the space furries to descend and get close and personal.

In fact the second paragraph you quoted mostly supports what I was saying - Valdor was the one trying to calm things down and asking for more time, whereas Russ got himself more and more angry until he finally snapped. He just wasn't irate when he first arrived on the scene, but the combination Horus' warnings and Magnus' perceived insult pushed him that way.

Russ still did make an attempt at diplomacy first, it was Magnus own fault for not answering anything.

You have Mortarion mixed up with Perturabo, I think. Mort didn't have a decimation, and I don't think there's any suggestion that he used bio-/nuclear weapons on non-military targets until after he had Fallen.

My bad for mixing the names for one psychopath primarch for another, but it's kinda irrelevant if Mortarion wasn't specifically targeting civilian stuff, since the reason biological/nuclear weapons are usually considered war crimes it's precisely because they have all sort of nasty lingering effects and spread to civilians in the area pretty easy.

Angron was the Emperor's butcher - his role was a specific and deliberate admission that sometimes brutality needed to be employed in specific situations. I don't think that is the same thing as, or condoning of, the ideal that extreme violence should ALWAYS be the FIRST preferred method.

Wasn't Russ the emprah's butcher? He's the one who thinks it's a greaty idea to murderize every woman and child of Prospero for the great crime of being in the same planet as Magnus. Or who knows the emprah thought he needed two butchers.

And then Curze too on top of Angron and Russ and also another guy specialized in virus weapons and toxins and the other guy who treats his troops as expendable ammo and, well, you get the idea.

Citation needed on that last line.

Master of Mankind start.

Similarly, I remember that a lot of the Unification War was about how many times the Emperor offered to let the other Warlords join his side in peaceful capitulation - some of them did, some of them only faked it while lying to him, and some rebuked him violently.
Violence was never his primary method

Ten thousand custodes plus four assassin temples plus twenty legion of super mutants specialized in numerous aspects of warfare.

Yet zero super diplomatic/medic organizations. The legions were the first thing that made contact with all civilizations outside terra and they let their guns do the speaking more often than not.

and frankly, when he DID employ it he was far more merciful than those he used it upon.

The emprah literally devours the souls of his people and toook children from the conquered families to turn into super mutant warriors. Where exactly is the mercy in that?

The Emperor condoned the use of Assassins, but it was run by Malcador who openly admitted getting his own hands dirty so that the Emperor didn't have to. I'm not sure that's enough to specifically say that the Emperor personally approved of Eversors, but at the same time I think there's a strong argument that employing Assassins to kill a handful of people rather than sending the Astartes to kill ALL of the people is in-character with the Emperor's intention to refrain from killing needlessly.

Emprah: "Yoh Pertubaro here's your own legion use it well!"
Pertubaro: "Great, kill 10% of yourselves."
Emprah: "That's mah boi!"

Also, Angron.

Also, every legion was armed with planet-destroying weaponry and permission to use it whenever they felt like it. If the emprah ever cared about collateral damage, he didn't really show it.

Of course in some examples - the Thunder Warriors - his idea of "need" differs from ours, but on the whole the Emperor was a lot better than the Imperium ever was.

Depends in your point of view. The emprah getting stuck in the golden toilet allowed countless civilizations to survive that would've otherwise been purged/enslaved by his united legions of super mutants.

The emprah loved to claim he was "liberating" worlds, but thing was those worlds had already endured millenia before the emprah getting there, and then all he left behind were more cogs for his military machine, to pay taxes for the great crusade or be exterminated (or pay taxes and still be exterminated anyway in case a primarch or the emprah was in a bad mood, recall what happened to Lorgar's favorite city).

Oh, and remember Angron's homeworld? The one filled with slavers that made people fight to the death for their amusement? They joined the empire and were allowed to keep all their ways. Angron is the one that finally comes back and purges them after going full traitor. Think about it. The emprah was perfectly fine with enslaving people and making them fight to the death for the amusement of a few.

[lord_khaine]

Depends in your point of view. The emprah getting stuck in the golden toilet allowed countless civilizations to survive that would've otherwise been purged/enslaved by his united legions of super mutants.

The emperor getting stuck there, as well as the ensuring civil war, were certainly the best possible outcome for the galaxy.

[comicshorse]

Wow things really moved on while I was away. I'll just comment on Drasius post and then read the rest

I quoted you to respond to a point, that's how this works. The below:


Certainly gives the impression that you think that the NL's only ever ran around torturing people and weren't involved in any fighting of substance, and that's just not the case.



.

But why are you going on the impression you get rather than what I actually wrote ? Kinda irrelevant. Moving on

Literally any book involving the Night Lords mentions it, even the 40k stuff.

People keep saying this and yet nothing ever gets cited ( with quotes please)

there's a flashback specifically of the Sallies and the NL's getting all antsy 'cause the Salamanders were dithering about and the NL's looked at each other, shrugged, podded in and made an example out of everyone they found, with the rest of the planet surrendering in minutes. Again, IIRC, Vulkan goes off his chops about how there was a better way and Curze simply asks how many would die in a long, drawn out, traditional war. Vulkan says something along the lines of not as many as you butchered and then Curze reminds Vulkan that his calculations include the losses on his side as well, and a snide comment that Vulkan cares more about the enemy combatants than his own soldiers and allies. Curze also points out that by killing a bunch of scrubs here in a brutal manner, 10 other worlds will ascede to compliance without a shot being fired, saving millions of lives, making him more of a humanitarian than Vulkan is - all done with a smirk of course, because Curze knows how much pain it will cause Vulkan to wonder if Curze has a point.

So we get Curze saying how great he is an a way that indicates he's only really saying stuff to wind up his brother.
And how on earth do these 'ten other worlds' know about this in any way that they'd find even slightly believable

Unremembered Empire has Ultramar itself have pockets of resistance and chaos cults, The Osiris Rebellion has a whole cluster rebel against the ultras who pacified them, the Nightfane series has a number of traitor stations helping the word bearers and alpha legion do their thing. You have to remember, the Ultras are the poster boys, their failures aren't going to be pushed to the forefront.

I've read 'Unrembered Empire' (albeit years ago) and I don't remember that in the slightest. As for the Nightfane series that's post the Heresy when the Empire has gone to hell. It's unfair to compare success rates then when the NL have no worlds undergoing the same problems and stresses. Post Heresy was much worse than anything the Primarchs could have been expected to prepare for and as the NL weren't there we have nothing to compare the UM worlds with. (IMHO if the NL had stayed loyal there worlds would have fallen to chaos cults so fast it'd make you're head spin)

Fastest is best when the Emperor asks for fastest (and he does, there's quite a few scenes in the earlier books where Horus talks about how many worlds conquored being a measuring stick for how well the legions are going, plus legions getting sanctioned for the lack of speed in which they achieve compliance).

Good point. Fastest gives the Emperor what he wants.
I'd still say 'fastest isn't best' by any normal desire to build a stable, successful empire it just seems the Emperor's priority list reads (in reverse order)

10- Lack of friendly casualties
9- Minimal damage to planets ability to serve the empire
8-fast
7-fast
6-fast
5-fast
4-fast
3-fast
2- Did I mention fast
1-FAST !

This also assumes that the NL way IS fastest in every situation. Which I'm not convinced by. See end of my reply

You ask for citations, you're going to have to provide them too.

Sure
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nostramo

Hardly realistic? That's the whole point of the setting (the superhuman killers in power armour, not being realistic [or unrealistic]). There isn't a more efficient way, that's the point we're making - this is what works in 30k.

Realistic bit fine, yes its a weird setting, no arguments
But yes there are more efficient ways. That's why the Emperor has 18 Legions and not one. Why the other Legions aren't told to use the NL tactics as they would if there way was the most efficient way

The NL's are the stick, the planetary government is the carrot. You have your friendly rememberancers spin you up a story about how the bad guys from murderdeathkilltown totally deserved to be killed in nasty ways, and that while the Imperium has saved you from the devious and nefarious ways of governor mustache twirler the thrid, they also have the Night Lords on speed dial in case anyone else has succumed to crazy ideas, like, ya know, not belonging to the Imperium.

Because employing a Legion of murderous sadists is so often is code for 'we're the good guys'


Posted by Brookshw

Not sure where it fell in the recruiting standards, but I recall a flash back in....Pharos(?) involving a NL thinking back to his preindoctrination days. Specifically, he and another future NL had killed and eaten a smaller kid (the future NLs being young in the flash back). In a strange moment of empathy, while the two were watching some fireworks, the NL wonders if the person they just ate would have enjoyed the fireworks too, had sort of a guilty vibe to it. The other NL to be had no such feelings. Not really sure how you degrade from eating people, I guess maybe to no recruits feeling guilt?

As a friend put it the NL are what happens when you recruit psychopaths and then infuse them with the DNA of an even bigger psychopath to make them more like him. There's a reason why practically no army ever has thought making an army of psychopaths was a good idea

Couple of generic points

Nostramo

The fact that the NL's didn't pacify Nostramo is irrelevant. Its whether Curze tactics are actually efficient that is the core of the argument. It was the basic NL tactic ( slaughter huge numbers in sickening atrocities until they get so scared they surrender) that Curze used on Nostramo and then passed on to his Legion to be their major M.O.
And it failed. Curze left Nostramo with specific rules on how the planet was to be run and they disobeyed him. They rebelled. And Curze did what he does best.

[I]EFFICIENCY[/I]

Consider a scenario. Two planets are putting up heavy resistance. It's felt wiping out their capital in a act of terror will break their will. One planet is being attacked by ...The Imperial Fists say (A) one by the NL (B)
(A) The IF organize a lance strike and press the button and wipe out the city. No friendly casualties, an hours work
(B) The NL go in and attack the place. Batter down the defences until the enemy surrender, round up everybody and then skin them all alive over the next few days. Casualties occur and days pass
Why should (B) be considered the more efficient method ?

PS
I'm reading down the rest of the thread let me just say
Platinus : Absolutely agree
Wraith : Love your post. I have slightly different interpretation of bits of Curze's character but still that's a great insight into Curze

[LansXero]

those worlds had already endured millenia before the emprah getting there

for a given definition of 'endured'. Like the alien mind-slaves Sanguinius had to purge, or the Davinites and their fall to Chaos, or the many alien-infested worlds. If they didnt die to the regular aliens, they wouldve died to tyranids or necrons in a few more millenia, so it doesnt really matter that much.