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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Heliomance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    A dimly-lit library. Rows of bookshelves line the walls, and as the camera slowly pans over them, we see that they are filled with gaming books. From the original brown-cover D&D manuals to the newest fifth edition supplements, we are given a brief but breathtaking history of over four decades of gaming in visual form.

    A pair of feet, clad in Converse, appear. The camera pans back to reveal the Chairwoman as she strides out into Optimization Stadium. Slowly, she looks around at the battleground. Rapidly, we are shown shots of the gaming materials here assembled: books, miniatures, maps, dice. The Chairwoman reaches down and picks up a twenty-sided die. She rolls it, then turns to the camera... and smiles.

    The camera pulls back from the smile to reveal... the Iron Gamers. Row upon row they stand, clad in the uniform of their trade: t-shirts with fantasy images, buttons with obscure quotes from novels and movies, dice bags at the ready. The shot dissolves into flames and the logo:


    Iron Gamer

    A montage of the contestants plays, with summaries of their optimization triumphs and achievements. Interspersed are brief interviews. Finally, though, the introductions are over. The contestants stand arrayed before the Chairwoman.

    Chairwoman: We unveil the ingredient!

    Tense music plays as the pedestal containing the mystery ingredient rises from below. Stacked neatly on the pedestal are copies of the Draconomicon.

    Chairwoman: We have a real treasure for you today! This month's theme is... Hoardstealer! ALLEZ OPTIMISER!

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef LXXXIV. Here in Optimisation Colosseum, contestants will endeavour to create an optimised and flavourful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

    Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a "sweet spot" of their choosing that represents what they believe to be the high point of the build. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

    Menu: The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was a long time ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.
    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

    Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.
    NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.

    Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 07:59 GMT on Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairwoman, Heliomance. Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 07:59 GMT on Tuesday, July 10th, 2018 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

    Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
    Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
    Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities

    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code immediately below (spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
    Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

    Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

    So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

    We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honourable mention. The honourable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honourable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honourable Mention will go to the chairwoman's favourite build.

    The Builds

    Past Competitions

    Courtesy of some wonderful volunteers, there is a handy-dandy spreadsheet guide to all previous builds here.

    Spoiler: The First Fifty
    Show
    Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
    Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
    Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
    Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
    Iron Chef V: War Chanter
    Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
    Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
    Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
    Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
    Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
    Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
    Iron Chef XII: War Mind
    Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
    Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
    Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
    Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
    Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
    Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
    Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
    Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
    Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
    Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
    Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
    Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
    Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
    Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
    Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
    Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
    Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
    Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
    Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
    Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
    Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
    Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
    Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
    Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
    Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
    Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
    Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker
    Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator
    Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer
    Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade
    Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger
    Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul
    Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat
    Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept
    Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior
    Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja
    Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall to Orcus
    Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger

    Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot
    Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight
    Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite
    Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer
    Iron Chef LV: Mountebank
    Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender
    Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner
    Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword
    Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna
    Iron Chef LX: Lasher
    Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego
    Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord
    Iron Chef LXIII: Witchborn Binder
    Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord
    Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide
    Iron Chef LXVI: Dwarven Chanter
    Irogn Chef LXVII: Gnome Giant Slayer
    Iron Chef LXVIII: Fang of Lolth
    Iron Chef LXIX: Shiba Protector
    Iron Chef LXX: Order of the Bow Initiate
    Iron Chef LXXI: Silver Key
    Iron Chef LXXII: Spellfire Channeler
    Iron Chef LXXIII: Flux Adept
    Iron Chef LXXIV: Crinti Shadow Marauder
    Iron Chef LXXV: Thief of Life
    Iron Chef LXXVI: Legacy Champion
    Iron Chef LXXVII: Great Rift Skyguard
    Iron Chef LXVIII: Risen Martyr
    Iron Chef LXXIX: Black Blood Hunter
    Iron Chef LXXX: Master of Many Forms
    Iron Chef LXXXI: Serene Guardian
    Iron Chef LXXXII: Elocator
    Iron Chef LXXXIII: Winterhaunt of Iboorighu
    Iron Chef LXXXIV: Waverider
    Iron Chef LXXXV: Astral Dancer
    Iron Chef LXXXVI: Twisted Lord
    Iron Chef LXXXVII: Shadowsmith
    Iron Chef LXXXVIII: Arboreal Guardian
    Iron Chef LXXXIX: Thrall of Demogorgon
    Iron Chef XC: Bloodstorm Blade
    Iron Chef XCI: Fatemaker
    Iron Chef XCII: Eye of the Xanathar
    Last edited by Heliomance; 2018-06-01 at 04:58 AM.
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    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    FAQ:
    Q: What's this even about?
    A: I'm glad you asked, actually...

    Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?
    A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

    Q: What about 3.0 materials?
    A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

    Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?
    A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

    Q: What about online sources in general?
    A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

    Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

    Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?
    A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Heliomance is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

    Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
    A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

    Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?
    A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavourably on it.

    Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
    A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armour, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favourably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

    Q: Do you have any other rules and guidelines on how to judge?
    A: We do, actually, designed to try and avoid unpleasantness we've encountered in past contests. The things we've come up with to avoid repeating this are given below.

    Spoiler
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    One Mistake, One Penalty
    Spoiler: What does this mean?
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    Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

    Non-exhaustive list of examples:

    Skills
    Allowed:
    • Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
    • Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
    • Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs


    Not allowed:
    • Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation

    Prereqs
    Allowed:
    • Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
    • Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
    • Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
    • (Trial, may be disallowed later)Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)


    Not Allowed:
    • "Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
    • Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes


    Other general things that are no longer allowed:
    • Penalising because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
    • Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalise if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.


    Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.


    Q: Do you have any contest house rules or clarifications to ambiguous rules?
    A: Some that have come up in previous contests and needed answers to:
    • All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
    • Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
    • Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.


    Q: Can I submit more than one entry?
    A: You may submit up to two entries into a given competition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalirren View Post
    The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
    Quote Originally Posted by golentan View Post
    I just don't want to have long romantic conversations or any sort of drama with my computer, okay? It knows what kind of porn I watch. I don't want to mess that up by allowing it to judge any of my choices in romance.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    my face when

    Surprising no one, I am in to cook.

    already, the indignities have begun. for a class that (I think it fair to say without getting in to speculation) assumes rogue entry and requires a ton of ranks in search, it has the good grace to grant me trapfinding. how generous.

    and already we've found our first mistake: supernatural abilities can't be dispelled. Ah, Skip. Never did learn the most rudimentary rules of his own game.
    Last edited by Venger; 2018-06-01 at 05:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Got a couple of interesting ideas ... question through is if i can find the time/will to stop sit down getting more than a rough idea

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Hmm, two Rogue-ish PrCs in a row?

    I'll see if inspiration strikes me.

    [edit] Wow, just re-read the PrC. Man, that's underwhelming! It wouldn't be unfair to call it a glorified Expert. Well, except for the casting, I guess. [/edit]

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Cook placeholder has been added to the ICO Spreadsheet.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    As always, your efforts are greatly appreciated, Wolfem.

    This class requires heavy investment in, but does not grant, Hide and MS. And here I thought Heliomance was being kind after Eye of the Xanathar.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2018-06-01 at 09:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Oh dear. Well, I'll see what I can do with this. I have a few thoughts, but I'm not sure if I'll commit to competing yet.

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    Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII

    Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII

    Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX

    The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    This is atrocious. I love it. I might throw my hat in, dunno if I'll have time,and I've never cooked before, but something weird and wonderful is tickling my brain, I'll see if I can make it work.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    That’s a lot of skill rank requirements. Not quite Dungeon Delver, but still a lot.

    I’m toying with the idea of judging, though the skill-heavy nature does mean that checking legality is going to be a chore. I implore everyone to make your skills as pretty as possible; no matter whether I judge or not, anyone who does judge is going to appreciate that. I’ll see if any of the class’s abilities (what abilities?!) sing to me enough to cook, but I haven’t made a final decision yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    This is atrocious. I love it. I might throw my hat in, dunno if I'll have time,and I've never cooked before, but something weird and wonderful is tickling my brain, I'll see if I can make it work.
    Welcome! The best thing you can do is just to go for it and see what happens.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2018-06-01 at 12:27 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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    Question Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    I love that the class grants Trapfinding. Look at those skills ranks: with the exception of Expert, I can't think of too many classes that could easily meet those reqs that didn't already have Trapfinding.

    If the devs were going to make this a remotely useful PrC, they should have axed about half of the skill reqs, added "Trapfinding class feature" as a req, and have had it progress Sneak Attack.

    Question: when the class says "A hoardstealer casts spells just as a wizard does.", would I be right to assume this includes the need for a spellbook?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I love that the class grants Trapfinding. Look at those skills ranks: with the exception of Expert, I can't think of too many classes that could easily meet those reqs that didn't already have Trapfinding.

    If the devs were going to make this a remotely useful PrC, they should have axed about half of the skill reqs, added "Trapfinding class feature" as a req, and have had it progress Sneak Attack.

    Question: when the class says "A hoardstealer casts spells just as a wizard does.", would I be right to assume this includes the need for a spellbook?
    Well, the class giving Trapfinding isn't completely useless ... you'll just [REDACTED]

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Question: when the class says "A hoardstealer casts spells just as a wizard does.", would I be right to assume this includes the need for a spellbook?
    Pretty sure that you need a spellbook, yeah.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    AAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I have a stupid trick I've been sitting on that this class let's me use! I'm in!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    I know it says you can cast spells, but does it give you the ability to learn or prepare spells? Prestige classes aren't even consistent in how their casting works, as is the case of Sublime Chord letting you prepare(?) and cast as a sorcerer, Blackguard letting you prepare and cast any spell on their list as a cleric, and Assassin just not telling you to reference the table for spells known. It's strange.

    Wait, 7th level spell as a spell-like ability spotted. What even is this.
    Last edited by Karl Aegis; 2018-06-01 at 06:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    I know it says you can cast spells, but does it give you the ability to learn or prepare spells? Prestige classes aren't even consistent in how their casting works, as is the case of Sublime Chord letting you prepare(?) and cast as a sorcerer, Blackguard letting you prepare and cast any spell on their list as a cleric, and Assassin just not telling you to reference the table for spells known. It's strange.

    Wait, 7th level spell as a spell-like ability spotted. What even is this.
    Your spellcasting works like wizard with all that implies.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    I had one idea that i was kicking around, and then inspiration struck and I had to make this second idea first hope {REDACTED}. See you in the kitchen.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Hmm. Now that I get a chance to really sit down and read more, well, this probably isn't the worst PrC in the book. I think that honor, such as it is, goes to Dragonkith. I think its "Mighty Attack" ability may be one of the most insulting so-called features I've seen recently, especially because it's a supernatural ability (and therefore—say it with me, kids—a standard action!). The only really abusable feature is Sorcerous Knack, but that's mostly because it's poorly defined what you are and aren't allowed to snag with it. But that class is remarkably awful.

    Hordestealer isn't that much better, but at least it does get spells. Not particularly amazing spells (the list is very similar to Fatemaker's list, and that's terrible), but spells are spells.

    I agree with much of the commentary here. The fact that it requires full ranks in Hide and MS to get in but then doesn't offer them as class skills is particularly egregious.

    Why is the range on Treasure Dowsing so insultingly tiny? I guess it's technically larger than the range on the rod that it's based off of, but that still seems, shall we say, very difficult to actually use properly. I will admit that I've never actually read that rod before, or if I have, it was so long ago that I forgot it entirely. (It's actually kind of worth looking at the DMG's rod section again. Rods are really freaking weird overall. Aside from the old standbys of the Metamagic Rods and the Immovable Rod (and I guess the Rod of Wonder), I can't see any of them ever being worth more than their gold value, but seriously, look at how weird some of them are. Sticks to snakes, but only if you have the right alignment! Make a giant group of stupid things treat you as their "absolute sovereign" for a grand total of about eight hours (ever)! Clothe yourself in super-schmancy clothes (with no listed activation action—it may forcibly dress you of its own volition) that makes you roll for the value but absolutely prevents you from having that value be meaningful in any way! Tell if anything nearby hates you, assuming that you still have uses left for the day and spend the relevant action and are already within charge range! Spend 85,000 gp to get a bunch of low-level spells, get an effect that's slightly better than Alarm, and then apparently animate stuff for some reason!

    I may need to make a new thread about this. Why are DMG rods so weird? They're so weird. (I bet most of them are legacy holdovers from 1e/2e, but they're still so weird.)

    Anyway, Hoardstealer. Um. I foresee most of these abilities being very hard to proactively show off. I'm getting a very, very strong Silver Key vibe off of this class. I think this round is going to have a lot in common with Silver Key.

    How do you think the Hoardstealer in that adorable picture is planning to carry that giant bag of heavy metal that's significantly larger than he is?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Hmm. Now that I get a chance to really sit down and read more, well, this probably isn't the worst PrC in the book. I think that honor, such as it is, goes to Dragonkith. I think its "Mighty Attack" ability may be one of the most insulting so-called features I've seen recently, especially because it's a supernatural ability (and therefore—say it with me, kids—a standard action!). The only really abusable feature is Sorcerous Knack, but that's mostly because it's poorly defined what you are and aren't allowed to snag with it. But that class is remarkably awful.

    Hordestealer isn't that much better, but at least it does get spells. Not particularly amazing spells (the list is very similar to Fatemaker's list, and that's terrible), but spells are spells.

    I agree with much of the commentary here. The fact that it requires full ranks in Hide and MS to get in but then doesn't offer them as class skills is particularly egregious.

    Why is the range on Treasure Dowsing so insultingly tiny? I guess it's technically larger than the range on the rod that it's based off of, but that still seems, shall we say, very difficult to actually use properly. I will admit that I've never actually read that rod before, or if I have, it was so long ago that I forgot it entirely. (It's actually kind of worth looking at the DMG's rod section again. Rods are really freaking weird overall. Aside from the old standbys of the Metamagic Rods and the Immovable Rod (and I guess the Rod of Wonder), I can't see any of them ever being worth more than their gold value, but seriously, look at how weird some of them are. Sticks to snakes, but only if you have the right alignment! Make a giant group of stupid things treat you as their "absolute sovereign" for a grand total of about eight hours (ever)! Clothe yourself in super-schmancy clothes (with no listed activation action—it may forcibly dress you of its own volition) that makes you roll for the value but absolutely prevents you from having that value be meaningful in any way! Tell if anything nearby hates you, assuming that you still have uses left for the day and spend the relevant action and are already within charge range! Spend 85,000 gp to get a bunch of low-level spells, get an effect that's slightly better than Alarm, and then apparently animate stuff for some reason!

    I may need to make a new thread about this. Why are DMG rods so weird? They're so weird. (I bet most of them are legacy holdovers from 1e/2e, but they're still so weird.)

    Anyway, Hoardstealer. Um. I foresee most of these abilities being very hard to proactively show off. I'm getting a very, very strong Silver Key vibe off of this class. I think this round is going to have a lot in common with Silver Key.

    How do you think the Hoardstealer in that adorable picture is planning to carry that giant bag of heavy metal that's significantly larger than he is?
    I would rather take levels in hordestealer. Pilfer the groupies of thrallherds and diplomonsters when they're not looking and put them in your magic bag

    Yeah, the rods in the dmg are some real pieces of crap. it goes for most of the other items as well. check out the helm of brilliance. a bunch of crappy consumable slas, and then if you ever get damaged, you will die.

    I suspect most of them are legacy items. Please do make this thread.

    Unlike silver key, I see nothing unique about hoardstealer. It merely wishes it could squat in your mordenkainen's magnificent mansion and eat your cucumber sandwiches.
    Last edited by Venger; 2018-06-01 at 09:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I would rather take levels in hordestealer. Pilfer the groupies of thrallherds and diplomonsters when they're not looking and put them in your magic bag

    Yeah, the rods in the dmg are some real pieces of crap. it goes for most of the other items as well. check out the helm of brilliance. a bunch of crappy consumable slas, and then if you ever get damaged, you will die.

    I suspect most of them are legacy items. Please do make this thread.

    Unlike silver key, I see nothing unique about hoardstealer. It merely wishes it could squat in your mordenkainen's magnificent mansion and eat your cucumber sandwiches.
    And then while you snub your nose at it, it'll run off with all your silverware.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by KrimsonNekros View Post
    And then while you snub your nose at it, it'll run off with all your silverware.
    Why do you think their stupid silver keys are so expensive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I'm getting a very, very strong Silver Key vibe off of this class. I think this round is going to have a lot in common with Silver Key.
    Does that mean that I'm going to win since I won Silver Key? :p
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Then I guess I'll take silver, if I can remember to qualify for the class this time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Bronze will be mine! You hear me judges!?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    I'd like to further predict that, like Silver Key, we'll get a couple builds that are almost exactly the same. Vizzini is not only telling me it's inconceivable that no one else will submit what is currently my best idea, but also naming some names of people likely to do so.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    I'd like to further predict that, like Silver Key, we'll get a couple builds that are almost exactly the same. Vizzini is not only telling me it's inconceivable that no one else will submit what is currently my best idea, but also naming some names of people likely to do so.
    I know you mean chefs, but I'm imagining you getting a flash of insight as to the names of the actual dishes being the same as well. I was thunderstruck back in urban soul when I saw someone else submitted a dish named Dorian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I would rather take levels in hordestealer. Pilfer the groupies of thrallherds and diplomonsters when they're not looking and put them in your magic bag
    Wow, I have no one to blame but myself for that. I earned every bit of that barb. Ouch.

    Yeah, the rods in the dmg are some real pieces of crap. it goes for most of the other items as well. check out the helm of brilliance. a bunch of crappy consumable slas, and then if you ever get damaged, you will die.

    I suspect most of them are legacy items. Please do make this thread.
    Done, though it looks like many of us have found it already.

    Unlike silver key, I see nothing unique about hoardstealer. It merely wishes it could squat in your mordenkainen's magnificent mansion and eat your cucumber sandwiches.
    Still, since everything the class gets is super situational, the challenge is going to be in finding ways to convince the judges that you can engineer and then take advantage of situations where your class features are useful. Because they usually aren't features that translate well to general-purpose utility.

    Why was WotC so enamored with use-limited abilities that aren't really very amazing? Not just on this class, of course.

    Also, I'm aware of one 10-level class that does grant its own spells that grants fewer per day, but I'm only aware of one. This one is definitely vying for the bottom slot in terms of number of spells per day. I wonder why that is.

    Hmm. They cast "just as a wizard does." Does that mean that they can specialize in a school and get bonus slots? Wizard specialization isn't a separate class feature from their spells. It's a sidebar, but it's just part of how Wizards cast. (I can delete this if it's too speculative.)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Wow, I have no one to blame but myself for that. I earned every bit of that barb. Ouch.
    I meant no offense. I just saw the opportunity to make a stupid pun, so, you understand, I had to avail myself of it.

    Done, though it looks like many of us have found it already.
    Thanks. Good thread.

    Still, since everything the class gets is super situational, the challenge is going to be in finding ways to convince the judges that you can engineer and then take advantage of situations where your class features are useful. Because they usually aren't features that translate well to general-purpose utility.

    Why was WotC so enamored with use-limited abilities that aren't really very amazing? Not just on this class, of course.

    Also, I'm aware of one 10-level class that does grant its own spells that grants fewer per day, but I'm only aware of one. This one is definitely vying for the bottom slot in terms of number of spells per day. I wonder why that is.

    Hmm. They cast "just as a wizard does." Does that mean that they can specialize in a school and get bonus slots? Wizard specialization isn't a separate class feature from their spells. It's a sidebar, but it's just part of how Wizards cast. (I can delete this if it's too speculative.)
    Personally, I have trouble showcasing "my guy uses this crappy 1/day sla." I'm not convinced it can really be done.

    Because they're not very smart, and even until the death of the game, massively overvalued the usefulness of at-wills, so any time they actually let anyone do anything, they needed to give it a meager daily limit to make it useless, even if the effect is underwhelming to start with. If you could detect metals at will, this class feature would still blow.

    after the reveal, let me know what it is, because I'm drawing a blank. I gather your coyness is in case anyone else uses it too.

    if I had to guess, and, giving the designers more than their fair share of credit and assuming the hoardstealer has a small number of spells/day on purpose and not just by happenstance, I'd guess it's for the same reason that any class that actually does anything (with rare exception) also doesn't have full ba. they already gave you skills (kind of) so they couldn't possibly give you a reasonable amount of slots too, or else everyone would take hoardstealer and rudisplork their games into oblivion.

    No, they don't specialize. Wu jen also cast "as wizard." They don't specialize in schools in the same fashion, so neither does hoardstealer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    I meant no offense. I just saw the opportunity to make a stupid pun, so, you understand, I had to avail myself of it.
    As well you should have! No offense was taken.

    after the reveal, let me know what it is, because I'm drawing a blank. I gather your coyness is in case anyone else uses it too.
    I don't think it has even the tiniest chance of showing up in this round unless someone throws it into their build as a direct result of this post just for craziness. The class is Knight of the Middle Circle, from Defenders of the Faith. It's the most unnecessarily spread-out class I've ever seen. You gain one spell slot of each of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level by the time you're done. One slot each. I have no idea what the point is. The other class features are standard bizarre 3.0 crap. True Strike a few times per day (hooray?), Tongues a surprisingly large number of times per day (but not always-on or anything, goodness no, that's far too crazy), Blind-Fight for some entirely obscure reason, and an almost interesting but far too timid bonus to attack rolls and AC against one target at a time (which is, at the very least, not action-heavy or use-limited, but it's still not worth the investment it takes to achieve it).

    To call it a five-level class stretched into ten levels is to generously flatter it. I can see why they didn't bother to update it. I don't see why they bothered to write it. They basically didn't. So you know, Hoardstealer is probably better than this, and it definitely gets more magic! That's a win, right? We're gonna call that a win?

    if I had to guess, and, giving the designers more than their fair share of credit and assuming the hoardstealer has a small number of spells/day on purpose and not just by happenstance, I'd guess it's for the same reason that any class that actually does anything (with rare exception) also doesn't have full ba. they already gave you skills (kind of) so they couldn't possibly give you a reasonable amount of slots too, or else everyone would take hoardstealer and rudisplork their games into oblivion.
    I guess I'm just confused by the fact that there's a semi-standard progression for "4th level spells over 10 PrC levels," and the Hoardstealer doesn't use that. I guess it's not actually standard, and there's probably at least one other notable exception that can be dug up in one direction or another, but still, such things are noticeable.

    Anyway, I have only thought of a single thing that can be done with Hoardstealer, but it's so far out in left field (and involves some pretty intense cheese to make it reliable) that I don't think I'll submit it. It really takes weapons-grade cheese to make it work, so I'll talk about it after the reveal. I'm still going to give myself a little more time before I commit to judging, but I'm leaning that way right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I don't think it has even the tiniest chance of showing up in this round unless someone throws it into their build as a direct result of this post just for craziness. The class is Knight of the Middle Circle, from Defenders of the Faith. It's the most unnecessarily spread-out class I've ever seen. You gain one spell slot of each of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level by the time you're done. One slot each. I have no idea what the point is. The other class features are standard bizarre 3.0 crap. True Strike a few times per day (hooray?), Tongues a surprisingly large number of times per day (but not always-on or anything, goodness no, that's far too crazy), Blind-Fight for some entirely obscure reason, and an almost interesting but far too timid bonus to attack rolls and AC against one target at a time (which is, at the very least, not action-heavy or use-limited, but it's still not worth the investment it takes to achieve it).

    To call it a five-level class stretched into ten levels is to generously flatter it. I can see why they didn't bother to update it. I don't see why they bothered to write it. They basically didn't. So you know, Hoardstealer is probably better than this, and it definitely gets more magic! That's a win, right? We're gonna call that a win?
    Holy crap, what an awful class. I've never even heard of it before.

    I guess I'm just confused by the fact that there's a semi-standard progression for "4th level spells over 10 PrC levels," and the Hoardstealer doesn't use that. I guess it's not actually standard, and there's probably at least one other notable exception that can be dug up in one direction or another, but still, such things are noticeable.

    Anyway, I have only thought of a single thing that can be done with Hoardstealer, but it's so far out in left field (and involves some pretty intense cheese to make it reliable) that I don't think I'll submit it. It really takes weapons-grade cheese to make it work, so I'll talk about it after the reveal. I'm still going to give myself a little more time before I commit to judging, but I'm leaning that way right now.
    I agree it's peculiar. I know of at least one other class that uses the same spells/day as hoardstealer, but I think someone might use it, so I'll mention it after the reveal so as to avoid speculation.

    I'll just prepare myself for a low score then
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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
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