Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Bind Magic, Counterspell (spells)

    (Antimagic) is a new Abjuration subschool, applying to spells that suppress, counter, or dispel magic (dispel magic, antimagic shell, dispel chaos/evil/good/law, disjunction, etc.).

    If you can tell where I got the spell descriptions from, you're as big a geek as I am :D

    Bind Magic
    Abjuration (Antimagic)
    Level: Cleric 5, Druid 5, Sor/Wiz 5
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Target: One spellcaster
    Duration: 1 hour/level; see text
    Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You incant "Vincere!", and a stream of emerald-green light issues from your outstretched hand to coil around the wizardress. Her first counterspell attempts fail, and before she can try another the spell puts her into a deep slumber and levitates her a few feet above the ground. The viridian band of light turns a dark violet as it absorbs her power for the moment.

    The wizardress has been corrupted by her own dark magic, and poses a danger to herself and others. You only hope you can contain her safely for now...


    This spell temporarily disables an enemy spellcaster, sealing away their powers. On a failed Will save they lose the ability to cast spells while bound and are rendered unconscious, levitating a few feet above the ground.

    The target is permitted an additional Will save every 10 minutes to regain consciousness, but they remain unable to speak, move, or cast spells requiring somatic or verbal components. Targets with access to telepathic or similar magic may be able to circumvent the spell nonetheless.

    The spell has no effect on non-spellcasters. Attacking the target immediately disrupts and ends the spell.

    Counterspell, Lesser
    Abjuration (Antimagic)
    Level: Cleric 3, Druid 3, Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 immediate action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) or Personal
    Target: One spellcaster or You
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    The druid's binding spell leaps at you again - a writhing coil of ensnaring, emerald-green light. You smile dismissively; with nothing more than a wave of your hand and a simple "Solutum.", the spell dissolves into nothingness before it can fully entrap you. He was a fool to try the same enchantment twice.

    You instantly counter a spell of 3rd level or lower, even if it is not your turn and even if you have already cast a spell this round. You may counter a spell cast by a spellcaster within range, or any spell targeting yourself (regardless of the distance to that spell's caster). In either case, you must successfully identify the spell to be countered with a Spellcraft check or the lesser counterspell is wasted.

    Counterspell
    Abjuration (Antimagic)
    Level: Cleric 6, Druid 6, Sor/Wiz 6
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 immediate action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) or Personal
    Target: One spellcaster or You
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    This spell functions as lesser counterspell, save that you may counter a spell of 6th level or lower.

    Counterspell, Greater
    Abjuration (Antimagic)
    Level: Cleric 9, Druid 9, Sor/Wiz 9
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 immediate action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) or Personal
    Target: One spellcaster or You
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    This spell functions as lesser counterspell, save that you may counter a spell of 9th level or lower.
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-06-15 at 08:43 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    turkey
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bind Magic, Counterspell (spells)

    welp my gut says you are a witcher fan as the one word magic kinda used only in that series. the funny think is we can create the ciri of rivia in near feature with enough perfection that finally every one can play the man who sleeped with the entire sorceress lodge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bind Magic, Counterspell (spells)

    Thematically these spells look good, but their spell levels could use some adjustment.

    Bind magic is similar to feeblemind (disables casting and renders the target basically useless) with tradeoffs: it's worse than feeblemind in that it's useless against noncasters and can be dispelled or resisted after taking effect, and it's better in that it renders them completely helpless (so they can't even provide limited aid to allies or escape under their own power, and you only need one attack for a coup de grace) and isn't mind-affecting and so can affect liches, high-level wizards with mind blank, and the like.

    So I'd say that it should be at least 5th to match feeblemind (and other take-you-out-instantly spells and powers like slay living and psychic crush), and possibly 6th or 7th because antimagic ray is 7th and bind magic has a few advantages over that as well, and overcoming mind-affecting immunity is huge on its own.

    Counterspell and greater counterspell, meanwhile, could stand to be 2nd- and 5th-level, respectively, like how the more limited swift X spells are a level lower than their normal counterparts. The minor situational benefits provided by the spells don't come up very often--the +4 to dispel checks is nice, but if you have Improved Counterspell you can already counter spells automatically by spending a higher-level slot, so you'd only be using this spell if you were going to be fine with using a dispel magic and possibly failing, and the ability to counter longer-range spells wouldn't come up all that often because you have to be aware of the caster anyway--so under most circumstances these spells provide a strict subset of the benefits of dispel magic and greater dispel magic.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bind Magic, Counterspell (spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    welp my gut says you are a witcher fan as the one word magic kinda used only in that series. the funny think is we can create the ciri of rivia in near feature with enough perfection that finally every one can play the man who sleeped with the entire sorceress lodge.
    Ha I'm afraid I was actually referencing Buffy the Vampire Slayer (probably showing my age!). Good guess though!

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Thematically these spells look good, but their spell levels could use some adjustment.

    Bind magic is similar to feeblemind (disables casting and renders the target basically useless) with tradeoffs: it's worse than feeblemind in that it's useless against noncasters and can be dispelled or resisted after taking effect, and it's better in that it renders them completely helpless (so they can't even provide limited aid to allies or escape under their own power, and you only need one attack for a coup de grace) and isn't mind-affecting and so can affect liches, high-level wizards with mind blank, and the like.

    So I'd say that it should be at least 5th to match feeblemind (and other take-you-out-instantly spells and powers like slay living and psychic crush), and possibly 6th or 7th because antimagic ray is 7th and bind magic has a few advantages over that as well, and overcoming mind-affecting immunity is huge on its own.
    Interesting analysis - I used feeblemind as the base comparison, but dropped bind magic a level since it was narrower in its effect. However you've persuaded me to bump it up a level again.

    Counterspell and greater counterspell, meanwhile, could stand to be 2nd- and 5th-level, respectively, like how the more limited swift X spells are a level lower than their normal counterparts. The minor situational benefits provided by the spells don't come up very often--the +4 to dispel checks is nice, but if you have Improved Counterspell you can already counter spells automatically by spending a higher-level slot, so you'd only be using this spell if you were going to be fine with using a dispel magic and possibly failing, and the ability to counter longer-range spells wouldn't come up all that often because you have to be aware of the caster anyway--so under most circumstances these spells provide a strict subset of the benefits of dispel magic and greater dispel magic.
    I'm not sure about lowering these, though. In equal-level caster-vs-caster combat it gives you a 50% chance to ignore the enemy's spell, without costing you an action. I think that's a pretty powerful (if niche) effect; if it's not that strong I'd rather increase the bonus on the dispel check (or even make it an automatic success) rather than lower the spell level.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bind Magic, Counterspell (spells)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I'm not sure about lowering these, though. In equal-level caster-vs-caster combat it gives you a 50% chance to ignore the enemy's spell, without costing you an action. I think that's a pretty powerful (if niche) effect; if it's not that strong I'd rather increase the bonus on the dispel check (or even make it an automatic success) rather than lower the spell level.
    It is a powerful effect, but keep in mind that dispel magic is usually prepared because it can help you bypass wards, disable enemy buffs, undo harmful effects on your allies, suppress magic items and traps, and so forth. So having dispel magic prepared is useful in general, and if it also lets you counterspell, great; having counterspell prepared is useless if you're not going up against a spellcasting foe (specifically spellcasting, not magic-using, since SLAs and Su abilities can't be counterspelled), which happens the vast majority of the time.

    Plus, you don't have to invest resources in Improved Counterspell and such to effectively counter someone, since you can simply ready an action to blast someone when they cast, and the average Concentration DC of 45 forced by a CL 10 lightning bolt has a much higher chance of making a 10th-level caster lose the spell than a dispel check at +10 and actually deals damage besides. And of course there is already a 3rd-level uber-counterspell spell: battlemagic perception, which lets you sense and identify spellcasting within 100 feet and discharge it for a free-action counterspell.

    A counterspell that's more restricted than dispel magic and less generally useful than battlemagic perception would have to be pretty darn useful to make sense at 3rd. I don't really like the idea of automatic success, since only needing a low-level spell to shut down a high-level caster (A) breaks the usual set of assumptions about needing roughly level X resources to counter a level X effect and (B) enables shenanigans like dragging a bunch of low-level casters in to face the Lich King or arming the whole party with wands of counterspell for the same effect.

    So let's think of other ways to make it useful, thinking of similar effects like Divine Defiance and battlemagic perception:
    • How about if counterspell functioned as above with an immediate-action dispel check, but let you expend the matching spell if you have it prepared or known to automatically succeed as if counterspelling normally? The benefit of counterspell over dispel magic in this case is that it doesn't require readying an action and doesn't require taking Reactive Counterspell.
    • How about if counterspell functioned as above, but succeeded automatically if its CL is higher than the CL of the spell being countered? That gives you the much higher reliability against even- and lower-level foes but prevents the bunch-of-mooks-with-wands abuse I mentioned.
    • How about if counterspell were cast as an immediate action to allow a counterspell attempt, but then lasted something like 1 round/level and allowed the caster to make the same counterspell attempts every round? That doesn't improve the chances of individual attempts, but it would last an entire battle with an enemy caster to give a higher chance of at least one attempt succeeding, forcing a caster who IDs the counterspell use to be more careful with their casting.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Vancouver <-> Dublin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Bind Magic, Counterspell (spells)

    Very salient points - I've taken your 2nd suggestion and adapted it for spell level rather than caster level (in line with globe of invulnerability, spell turning, the various mechanics that reference countering spells of equal or lower level, etc). Thanks for the input!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •