Schlock Mercenary VIII: insAIne in the mAInfrAIme

[PraetorDragoon]

New comic.

And, as expected, the Toughs are going to atone for being filthy thieves by working for the Oafans. Possibly forever.

wait, we're not even seeing the negotations or anything? Just instant "You work for us now."?

[Psionic Dog]

wait, we're not even seeing the negotations or anything? Just instant "You work for us now."?

Tagon delegated the negotiations to Ennesbey which then occurred between panels at AI speed while Tagon watched.

And, as expected, the Toughs are going to atone for being filthy thieves by working for the Oafans. Possibly forever.

As expected Flinders is the first to competently question their alleged debt. After all we couldn't expect the UNS to defend the Toughs and Tagon has always outsourced his legal smeagal issues and is mostly concerned with making payroll now that their bank account was repossessed. PD has always operated on might makes right and is now worried about trade imbalances, and Ennesbey is certainly no Massey. Despite his encyclopedic knowledge and skill at discovery/paperwork Ennesbey has always been too pessimistic/defeatist to come up with an actual defense.

The only character left we've seen who knows about the new Oafan/Tough relationship is Putzhu, and I am curious why the extroverted individual we met in the All Star would consent to pressuring another party into implied eternal servitude to cover an unpayable debt.


Anyway my understanding of the issues is that the Tough's aren't the thieves. It feels more like Broken Wind / IaFa stole the entire not-abandoned station making everything bribed/paid/gifted/transferred stolen property that must be returned least the recipients be guilty of possession. (Serious issue on statute of limitations here). If they return everything Oafian they are left with Cynthetic Certainty, personal equipment, and whatever remains of the All Star payout that wasn't banked with the NeoOafans. If they are expected to also make good on everything destroyed/spent while in their possession they have a serious debt and need a better lawyer than Ennesbey. Especially if that includes the generous sale of ten thousand warships, pre-diced, for one dinky tricorn battleplate.

[Ibrinar]

I might have to stop reading for a while and then come back when I can blow through all the comics that hit that ridiculous nonsense.

If I took it out of my list I am not sure whether I would ever come back to finish it, I am kinda reading out of inertia so if you remove that. Though at this kind I have read it so long that I do want to know how it ends so maybe I would.

[Doran]

I'm getting tired of problems being setup off-panel by supposedly smart and benelovent AI that the characters meekly accept.

The same thing happened in the original decision to take over the Chinook AI - everything was resolved off panel and screwed the characters over.

Even a line by Ennesby about this being the least worst deal they could get and what the alternatives to Tagon where would have helped in BOTH cases.

It's odd, as Howard does know how to handle omniscient AI who are still reasonable and explain their decision - see the inhabitants of the All-Star, and Petey.

Speaking of legal quagmires - who is best to inherit? The AI oafans, the new oafans, the swarm inhabitants, or the oafans who have the memories of all three? That would be interesting.

[Thomas Cardew]

So instead of being frustrated by a pointless strip with an unfunny joke, I'll ask a question. Have we ever seen Flinders and Nick interact after her makeover? Or since she joined the toughs?

[memnarch]

So instead of being frustrated by a pointless strip with an unfunny joke, I'll ask a question. Have we ever seen Flinders and Nick interact after her makeover? Or since she joined the toughs?

Yep. Here's where they first meet again on the roadtrip back to Sol System. (mind you, this takes course over the remainder of the book it's in)

[keybounce]

You know, linking into the schlock archives is worse than sending me to TvTropes.

So, remember the "Can of Sky" scene were Tagon and of the Balloons are discussing the inability to do the job that cannot be paid for?

https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2003-09-25

[keybounce]

So let's see about reopening a can of worms.

Not too long ago, we had a big discussion about whether or not this Tagon is the same as the last Tagon. In looking over the archive, I found this has come up twice before.

After Sherlock jumped into the pit of Osiri, and died from the exposure to the cold, his replacement with the duplicated memory pointed out that he was not that one.

During the Zoojack adventure (book 4), Kevin points out that he is no longer the original Kevin but the gate clone of the original who died.

The whole idea of "I am not the same as the person I was cloned from, even if I have the exact same memory except for maybe 20 minutes" is a persistent theme of this comic.

[Willie the Duck]

So let's see about reopening a can of worms.

Not too long ago, we had a big discussion about whether or not this Tagon is the same as the last Tagon. In looking over the archive, I found this has come up twice before.

After Sherlock jumped into the pit of Osiri, and died from the exposure to the cold, his replacement with the duplicated memory pointed out that he was not that one.

During the Zoojack adventure (book 4), Kevin points out that he is no longer the original Kevin but the gate clone of the original who died.

The whole idea of "I am not the same as the person I was cloned from, even if I have the exact same memory except for maybe 20 minutes" is a persistent theme of this comic.

First of all, I am assuming autocorrect, but I love the idea of Freudian slip-calling Schlock Sherlock.

Anyways, um, okay, sure. Is that particularly pertinent to anything now, or is this leftover from when Tagon was talking about it? Because I haven't seen anything in particular about it now (it's being outright ignored for the people currently being regenerated).

It's hardly a new issue. We've been having 'are the Star Trek transporters actually vaporizing the original Kirk/Bones/Spock and just making appear elsewhere some newly-created-entities that only think they are the same people?' questions for 50 years now. Unless you believe in a immortal soul or the like, however (something which doesn't appear to be referenced in the Schlock universe), the distinction is pretty academic.

[Ibrinar]

Have to agree with Willie the Duck, atm I don't see why you are bringing it up? Sure it is a theme of the comic but doesn't seem super relevant at the moment (unless you suggest they challenge the ownership because the digital copies are not actually the original owners but just copies?) Otherwise yes it is a persistent theme but unless you have something new to add I don't see much point in repeating the last discussion.

[Gnoman]

So let's see about reopening a can of worms.

Not too long ago, we had a big discussion about whether or not this Tagon is the same as the last Tagon. In looking over the archive, I found this has come up twice before.

After Sherlock jumped into the pit of Osiri, and died from the exposure to the cold, his replacement with the duplicated memory pointed out that he was not that one.

During the Zoojack adventure (book 4), Kevin points out that he is no longer the original Kevin but the gate clone of the original who died.

The whole idea of "I am not the same as the person I was cloned from, even if I have the exact same memory except for maybe 20 minutes" is a persistent theme of this comic.

You missed at least one.

https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-03-20

I'm pretty sure that Schlock had a nice conversation with the "magic cryokit" (which had some part of the dead doctor's personality stored in it, and schlock wanted to apologize for killing the doctor) about it as well, but I can't find that strip.

[Thomas Cardew]

Yep. Here's where they first meet again on the roadtrip back to Sol System. (mind you, this takes course over the remainder of the book it's in)

Thanks I'd forgotten that. I remembered Kathryn's and Karl's back story but not the other interactions.

In other news today's strip seems slightly meta. By all means, let's keep punishing the audience and go over the debts again.

[Rockphed]

Thanks I'd forgotten that. I remembered Kathryn's and Karl's back story but not the other interactions.

In other news today's strip seems slightly meta. By all means, let's keep punishing the audience and go over the debts again.

I was hoping we would get some actual exposition out of this. At least some idea of what the toughs are actually on the hook for and what they are going to be left with after they finish whatever stupid thing the reborn Oafans want them to do.

[Grim Portent]

Anyone else feel like it would actually have been more entertaining for them to find the dead-oafans in the computer, revive them and then have a courtroom drama plot where the ancient oafans try to sue the neo-oafans through the legal system Massey has been setting up and actually address the issue of immortality and property more directly?

Would still be rather stupid, but at this point I'd like a smaller slower story where we actually get to see all the important beats rather than skipping half the most important scenes.

[Max_Killjoy]

Anyone else feel like it would actually have been more entertaining for them to find the dead-oafans in the computer, revive them and then have a courtroom drama plot where the ancient oafans try to sue the neo-oafans through the legal system Massey has been setting up and actually address the issue of immortality and property more directly?

Would still be rather stupid, but at this point I'd like a smaller slower story where we actually get to see all the important beats rather than skipping half the most important scenes.

I think that would have been far better than having all the important things happen off-screen.

[Thomas Cardew]

Anyone else feel like it would actually have been more entertaining for them to find the dead-oafans in the computer, revive them and then have a courtroom drama plot where the ancient oafans try to sue the neo-oafans through the legal system Massey has been setting up and actually address the issue of immortality and property more directly?

Would still be rather stupid, but at this point I'd like a smaller slower story where we actually get to see all the important beats rather than skipping half the most important scenes.

Honestly that sounds a whole lot better than the last few books. I'd be a little worried about length, but the courtroom scenes were generally pretty good, I'm think of the schlock homeworld and the post-kill-a-tv-network ones.

[PraetorDragoon]

Anyone else feel like it would actually have been more entertaining for them to find the dead-oafans in the computer, revive them and then have a courtroom drama plot where the ancient oafans try to sue the neo-oafans through the legal system Massey has been setting up and actually address the issue of immortality and property more directly?

Would still be rather stupid, but at this point I'd like a smaller slower story where we actually get to see all the important beats rather than skipping half the most important scenes.

Considering how low the bar currently is, it would have been better.

[factotum]

Well, this is totally an improvement--as well as being on the hook for a very large amount of money, the Toughs are now blaming themselves for starting a war? Hell, just make them take the blame for the Pa'anuri existing too, might as well go the whole hog!

[HandofShadows]

Well, this is totally an improvement--as well as being on the hook for a very large amount of money, the Toughs are now blaming themselves for starting a war? Hell, just make them take the blame for the Pa'anuri existing too, might as well go the whole hog!

They are not so much blaming themselves for starting a war, but for the cost of reactivation a million old warships. There hasn't been a war started yet that we know of.

[DeTess]

Well, this is totally an improvement--as well as being on the hook for a very large amount of money, the Toughs are now blaming themselves for starting a war? Hell, just make them take the blame for the Pa'anuri existing too, might as well go the whole hog!

Actually, this particular comic explained why everyone 'accepted' the Toughs debt so easily. They don't really have another choice because the one stating that they owe them have the firepower to back it up against everyone at once.

[Max_Killjoy]

And never mind that Chinook went insane because of the station's faulty hardware... no, that would be inconvenient to The Story.

[Doran]

And never mind that Chinook went insane because of the station's faulty hardware... no, that would be inconvenient to The Story.

The ai-Oafans would probably just point out that she was insane before being Chinook as well.

The Toughs are really only to blame for meekly going along with whatever their AI (Ennesby) say and never complaining.

The comic gives the excuse of "speed" needed for important decisions so AIs get free reign, but there's no reason why they couldn't pull a reverse Petey or Putzho and have an AI copy of themselves for the fast decisions with memories synced to the biological original after the fact.

[Willie the Duck]

The comic gives the excuse of "speed" needed for important decisions so AIs get free reign, but there's no reason why they couldn't pull a reverse Petey or Putzho and have an AI copy of themselves for the fast decisions with memories synced to the biological original after the fact.

The comic made humanity obsolete multiple times without really exploring the issue. It's only glaring because they've just now made death obsolete for humanity and are exploring the consequences of that.

[HandofShadows]

The more I think about this, it isn't about the Ofans getting repaid. This is about the Ofans having people with certain abilities/skills/expertise (and ethics/morals?) working for them to do jobs they can't do.

[factotum]

The more I think about this, it isn't about the Ofans getting repaid. This is about the Ofans having people with certain abilities/skills/expertise (and ethics/morals?) working for them to do jobs they can't do.

I still think this is more Howard thinking, "I've got the Toughs into a situation where they have all the resources they need for any situation--how do I get them back working on their own?" and not having a better solution, no matter how illogical the whole thing is. Whatever in-strip justification exists for this is subservient to that, IMHO.

[Max_Killjoy]

The more I think about this, it isn't about the Ofans getting repaid. This is about the Ofans having people with certain abilities/skills/expertise (and ethics/morals?) working for them to do jobs they can't do.

I still think this is more Howard thinking, "I've got the Toughs into a situation where they have all the resources they need for any situation--how do I get them back working on their own?" and not having a better solution, no matter how illogical the whole thing is. Whatever in-strip justification exists for this is subservient to that, IMHO.

The thing is, the "returned" Oafans have, via their "resurrected" brethren, and their presence on the "can of sky", a direct inroads to a non-coercive relationship with the Toughs and the Tough's associates. The Toughs would have gotten involved in saving the galaxy if asked nicely, they didn't need to be hit over the head.

Why all this strong-arming and apparent repossession?

[Willie the Duck]

Why all this strong-arming and apparent repossession?

And, as a sidebar, why would the Oafans want or need them? They have their own navy, and the money to buy whatever they need. Other then a mad scientist and a few leaders who sometimes make really tactically brilliant decisions, what do they have to offer?

[JavaScribe]

And, as a sidebar, why would the Oafans want or need them?

Because they are the main characters and I'm starting to suspect that the author is getting lazy. "Long term contract, then. Cool." probably about sums it up.

[tyckspoon]

And, as a sidebar, why would the Oafans want or need them? They have their own navy, and the money to buy whatever they need. Other then a mad scientist and a few leaders who sometimes make really tactically brilliant decisions, what do they have to offer?

Kevyn has been stated to be a unique or nearly-so asset a few times; it wouldn't be the first time somebody has contracted the Toughs specifically to get access to Kevyn. They also have Petey's sympathies, which they have somehow managed not to overspend in their repeated debacles; Petey has shown he will go above and beyond for the Toughs in ways that probably do not justify the power/influence/economic might spent to do it. And there's Para, who is recognized as among if not actually the galaxy's foremost roboticist.

But if you want an actual answer (probably not going to be given on-page), I'd figure Putzho just negotiated a softer treatment for the Toughs from the re-awoken Oafan AIs; they can't convince the Oafans not to try to reclaim all the stuff the Oafans think is theirs, but perhaps they convinced them to hire on the Toughs as a contract crew for some of their ships, or to be their marine force considering the rediscovered Oafans A: don't have physical bodies anyway and B: are physically ill-equipped for doing violence even if they did get re-incorporated. Putzho probably had some social influence on the Oafans as the agent of their release/rediscovery, and seems inclined to like/help the Toughs, so may well have spent that influence to get them a job rather than leave them broke, purposeless, and basically living as welfare wards of Petey.

[sihnfahl]

Why all this strong-arming and apparent repossession?

IMO, because it locks the Toughs in with Petey and the Oafans.

The Toughs can't branch off to any other thing, take any other contracts... it locks them in the 'save the galaxy' storyline.

The Oafans don't really NEED the Toughs, but ... aside from the main characters thing, there is that Petey knows what they're like, and, if I recall, if he can't keep the Toughs happy in retirement, then he can point them at a target and they get results. So, the Oafans will do the same.

And now he doesn't have to worry so much about how 'safe' things are, because the whole immortality thing can bring a version of them back.