Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[Dragonus45]

... for real? She just executed someone in likely the most gruesome manner possible. Of course everyone is going to shoot out of reflex. That directly circle back around to your own argument of once Cora pulls a weapon her life is forfeit.

Ah yes, more victim blaming by trying to morally equate the people being assaulted with the people assaulting them.

And no.. thats the strawman your trying to put up. Or else pull out the quote where i "litterally" declase that "her big guns disqualify her from actually using them because it would be unfair to the people threatening her with lethal weaponry"

That would be literally every post you have made where you state she was in no danger and that she should have simply maimed her attackers, because of course there is no such thing as blood loss or shock when you suddenly lose a limb. Here is a great example!

What i have declared is that i see Cora as sufficiently powerful that she wasnt in danger from those.

Because she has big guns! Let me repeat, she is not in danger. Because. She. Carries. A. Big. Stick. Thus the rest of your argument!

And therefore cant claim murder in self defense.

She isn’t in danger because she had the capacity to defend herself with her big guns. Not because she is Maxima and so far above most people she can settle for deliberate and survivable maiming and cripplings. Thus she isn’t allowed to use that capacity to defend herself because she has to much capacity to defend herself.

Oh yes i certainly do!
Because i believe i have already stated that i did not see this as self defence.
And oh, i see your setting another strawman up there. Either that statement is blatantly false. Or else you can directly quote where i claim that "its wrong for a skilled person to defend themselves against less skilled opponents"

Just because you don’t use those words exactly doesn’t mean that it isn’t the very core of the argument you are making when you say she should just show them her wiki page and hope they walk away knowing they are already beat.

Dumpsters aren't known for its power to stop projectiles... But ok, maybe future weapons can't pierce dumpster like its cardboard - unlike bullets.

Are we talking about the same big metal boxes often filled with random stuff? Because I can easily imaging one of those stopping an attack for at least a moment. And a moment is plenty of time to take down an attacker, apparently also with said dumpster.

Meanwhile if someone tries to mug you with a gun and in response you destroy large part of street or turn several muggers into melted Swiss cheese, you lose any right to self defense. At best it's second degree murder. She didn't plan on killing them, but she used the opportunity when it presented itself. We know she laughed at their face implying she wasn't stressed about her survival.

Gotcha, so if the people mugging you have small guns and you have big ones you lose the right to claim self defense. Not at what point does that scale out though, is it the Flay Thrower that takes things past the edge or would a well placed plasma riffle do the same? What about grenades. Please tell me the correct amount of firepower you are supposed to be defending your life with.

Yea the property damage was a problem in its own right separate from basic sentient right to ensure her survival in the face of a lethal threat, but if she had used machine laser pistol to shoot everyone in the head they would be exactly as dead. What does it matter if the weapons she used made the people very dead instantly and in pieces then also very dead with a more polite and egalitarian chance for the muggers to kill her back.

Also what on earth... or in space or whatever makes people think that Cora even carries much below the Flay Thrower level. She responded to the heavy ordinance comment by saying that this was her equivalent of “just ordinance” and probably spends most of her time dealing with life or death struggles where pepper spray is just gonna be taking up time and space that could be another grenade.

[halfeye]

Are we talking about the same big metal boxes often filled with random stuff? Because I can easily imaging one of those stopping an attack for at least a moment. And a moment is plenty of time to take down an attacker, apparently also with said dumpster.

It takes 12mm of steel armour to stop a WW1 or WW2 rifle bullet (rifle bullets got downsized since). Pistol bullets less, but still quite a lot. Mild steel in two relatively thin sheets widely spaced either of which might be missed probably won't do it. Random stuff is random, you can't rely on it, it could be anything, and most of it not bullet proof, or nothing.

[The Glyphstone]

Assuming they're using slug throwers. Sci-fi armories are full of stuff like mass-reactive shells, lasers, and apparently Flay Throwers, a physical barrier might be variably affective. Plus, we don't know what the dumpster is made of - steel is a very unlikely option here considering the tech level. So that's another variable.

Ultimately, I think we have to conclude from evidence that the dumpster was or would be an effective shield, because it was used as one. We're debating Cora's morality for going ludicrous gibs on the muggers, but she seems to be a competent fighter who knows how to use her weapons.

[-D-]

Ah yes, more victim blaming by trying to morally equate the people being assaulted with the people assaulting them.

No. I think khaine has legitimate grievance. That display of fire power reeks of disapropriate retribution. Both in narrative and realistically. Not to mention text implies she pull her big guns, once muggers STARTED running away.

Once she got that clear enough, she saw Cora using the gravity gun attachment she teleports out on this page to hold up a dumpster as a shield before smashing someone into a wall with it.

Then things got violent because the muggers started trying to “defend themselves” and “run away.”

Are we talking about the same big metal boxes often filled with random stuff? Because I can easily imaging one of those stopping an attack for at least a moment.

Think of it this way. A car provides as much protection from bullets as a cardboard box of similar proportion. But besides the point. Maybe thugs used melta grenades. That still is essentially leaves us with:

Gotcha, so if the people mugging you have small guns and you have big ones you lose the right to claim self defense. Not at what point does that scale out though, is it the Flay Thrower that takes things past the edge or would a well placed plasma riffle do the same? What about grenades. Please tell me the correct amount of firepower you are supposed to be defending your life with.

I see what you are trying here. Let me ruin that strawman for you - regardless of pistol or gun or murder-**** shooters, according to law you can't kill someone. There are exemptions for self-defense, but from the comic and text we can see those don't apply - her attackers were fleeing or trying to escape, and the level of violence used was extreme.

In other news, you can't claim self defense if your response to someone pulling a gun on you is to decorate the landscape with their entrails, regardless whether you did it manually or through high level ordinance.

Maybe you weren't taught proper human laws, but it is generally customs in most western countries to use only as much power/effort to disable your attacker and call the cops. If in feat of fear or anger or bare survival you use deadly force - that's still manslaughter and it still comes with some sentence, although it depends on judge, jury and circumstances. In Cora's case given evidence we have, she definitely committed second degree murder. And that officer is letting her walk away, because Cora is famous.

[Dragonus45]

I see what you are trying here. Let me ruin that strawman for you - regardless of pistol or gun or murder-**** shooters, according to law you can't kill someone. There are exemptions for self-defense, but from the comic and text we can see those don't apply - her attackers were fleeing or trying to escape, and the level of violence used was extreme.

Im generally steering away from any direct legal discussion since that varies depending on where you live and is a rabbit hole that ends with red text and sadness. I’m talking ethics here. And ethically Cora was absolutely in the right, and it’s odd she would need to specifically use a shield against people who aren’t trying to attacking her back. Looks a lot like self defense to stations cop and to me.

In other news, you can't claim self defense if your response to someone pulling a gun on you is to decorate the landscape with their entrails, regardless whether you did it manually or through high level ordinance.

Why not? Leaving aside the fact you shouldn't want to damage the station itself it’s the exact same amount of dead they would be if she carried smaller weaponry.

Maybe you weren't taught proper human laws, but it is generally customs in most western countries to use only as much power/effort to disable your attacker and call the cops. If in feat of fear or anger or bare survival you use deadly force - that's still manslaughter and it still comes with some sentence, although it depends on judge, jury and circumstances. In Cora's case given evidence we have, she definitely committed second degree murder. And that officer is letting her walk away, because Cora is famous.

Read above not wanting to get caught up correcting your misconceptions about varies hypothetical legal aspects to the discussion.

Assuming they're using slug throwers. Sci-fi armories are full of stuff like mass-reactive shells, lasers, and apparently Flay Throwers, a physical barrier might be variably affective. Plus, we don't know what the dumpster is made of - steel is a very unlikely option here considering the tech level. So that's another variable.

Ultimately, I think we have to conclude from evidence that the dumpster was or would be an effective shield, because it was used as one. We're debating Cora's morality for going ludicrous gibs on the muggers, but she seems to be a competent fighter who knows how to use her weapons.

It also occurred to me that it could be effective as a visual shield to stop them from aiming directly at her while she strafed a little.

[HandofShadows]

Dabbler toys with her opponents because she's overconfident and enjoys it, and is mostly in this for fun.

Yep. I would make a note that Dabbler said she needed to create more/better disabling weapons. So she is deliberately trying to play by the rules that Archon works under. Now a question I don't recall anyone ever asking is how do they pay Dabbler? And what is the real reason she on Earth?

[-D-]

Now a question I don't recall anyone ever asking is how do they pay Dabbler? And what is the real reason she on Earth?

It's sex obviously

But seriously, if Vehemence gets super power from supers hating, doesn't that imply Dabbler gets super powered by sexing same supers? I mean, it does explain, why she wants to get into Maxima's pants that badly.

I’m talking ethics here. And ethically Cora was absolutely in the right, and it’s odd she would need to specifically use a shield against people who aren’t trying to attacking her back. Looks a lot like self defense to stations cop and to me.

Ok, let's talk ethics. Cora is by any modern egalitarian ethics code in so much red, she should have been on her way to the black-hole mines (i assume they are slightly worse than warp mines).

Egalitarian ethics assumes that all sapient organisms are created equal. Similarly all sapient organisms strive to not die and/or not be in pain. Thus each organism should try to prevent infliction of unnecessary suffering or death on fellow sapient organisms. Under those laws Cora again fails SUPER HARD. She was at some point secure enough that she decided to pursue the fleeing enemy thugs and use enough force to kill few of the goons and even melt someone's femur... When you are at a point of melting someone's femur, you can't try to get into self defense.

But maybe this is too esoteric for you. What if that thug's fell into a wrong crowd, because he was discriminated as a kid due to belonging to certain race? Or what if he fell into some debts to the local mafia, and is now forced to mug people for living, so his boss doesn't cut off his ears and use it for a soup? Or what if he is member of a caste that can't get a decent job on this space station, so he must resort to crime in order to have a chance at life that isn't appalling squalor?

I'm not saying him attacking Cora is justified, I'm saying, what if Cora is like Batman? Using too much violence on common street thugs, while people that ruin lives of millions enjoy their ill begoten wealth somewhere else.

Why not? Leaving aside the fact you shouldn't want to damage the station itself it’s the exact same amount of dead they would be if she carried smaller weaponry.

Facepalm. Ethics doesn't concern itself with how much you firepower you are wielding. If someone pulls a knife on you it's ok to disarm him and report him. What's not ok is for you to take his knife, chop of his ears, gouge out his eyes, vivisect him and them use his entrails as home decoration. I hope you understand how one is different from the other. Hint - one hurts and kills the assailant, the other doesn't.

If one subscribes to the eye-for-an-eye approach to ethics, it tends lead to ever escalating waves of violence.

[Keltest]

I think people are making some unfounded assumptions about the level of restraint Cora could have shown. Yes, she was acting unpleasantly smug about the carnage, but if somebody attacks you with a knife, you aren't required or expected to use your fists just because your gun is a significantly more powerful weapon than the knife. As she said, that was her normal level of ordinance which, while she is probably wildly overequipped for a standard walk around the station, also indicates that she doesn't have a less lethal weapon readily available that wouldn't also endanger herself and/or Sydney.

[Dragonus45]

Ok, let's talk ethics. Cora is by any modern egalitarian ethics code in so much red, she should have been on her way to the black-hole mines (i assume they are slightly worse than warp mines).

Egalitarian ethics assumes that all sapient organisms are created equal. Similarly all sapient organisms strive to not die and/or not be in pain. Thus each organism should try to prevent infliction of unnecessary suffering or death on fellow sapient organisms. Under those laws Cora again fails SUPER HARD. She was at some point secure enough that she decided to pursue the fleeing enemy thugs and use enough force to kill few of the goons and even melt someone's femur... When you are at a point of melting someone's femur, you can't try to get into self defense.

Considering there are still living people healthy enough to be taken into custody the idea that she was gunning down fleeing people wily nily seems to be stretching it a bit. And once again, the constant need to reference things like the melted femur reveals the truth, people treat the fact the gun used was big like it disqualified her from her right to self defense.

But maybe this is too esoteric for you. What if that thug's fell into a wrong crowd, because he was discriminated as a kid due to belonging to certain race? Or what if he fell into some debts to the local mafia, and is now forced to mug people for living, so his boss doesn't cut off his ears and use it for a soup? Or what if he is member of a caste that can't get a decent job on this space station, so he must resort to crime in order to have a chance at life that isn't appalling squalor?

That would suck for them, but the moment they use lethal force to demand someone else’s property from them things change. The most fundamental and important right in that alley way is the right of the person who is having their life threatened to not have that life threatened anymore. The mugger takes a back seat. You cannot equate the rights of a person being attached with the person attacking them in that moment. Do not threaten people with guns exactly as lethal and make you dead serious as the Flay Thrower, just lacking in flashy names and accompanying gibs.

Facepalm. Ethics doesn't concern itself with how much you firepower you are wielding. If someone pulls a knife on you it's ok to disarm him and report him. What's not ok is for you to take his knife, chop of his ears, gouge out his eyes, vivisect him and them use his entrails as home decoration. I hope you understand how one is different from the other. Hint - one hurts and kills the assailant, the other doesn't.

And your using a false equivalency equating using a big gun that blows up the person shooting at you with cold blooded torture. Let’s talk about a bit of reality on how deadly it’s a knife can be. Getting that knife away is going to be hard bordering on impossible without getting cut potentially very badly. Even an experienced capable and trained martial artist accepts they are in most every situation going to get cut of a knife comes at them, the goal is just to get cut somewhere it won’t kill them. Oh and the person with that knife is also probably going to be in a cast at best or dead at worst depending on how things go from there. Guns are worse. Much worse.

If you are in a situation where you are required to stop a person from shooting one at you you act with maximum commitment and hold nothing back. And this isn’t even touching on the fact that multiple attackers is a nightmare scenario on par with a knife even if it’s just two people to one.

All the skill in the world will still struggle with having to deal with two sets of arms and legs to your one. So you have someone surrounded by armed thugs at what looks like an almost 3-1 disadvantage while escorting a VIP who themselves carries enough firepower to accidentally level the entire block and isn’t sitting on a lot of training to use it. Yea, you end that situation quickly and decisively or you may well not live to end it at all. If that means you open the fight with your Flay Thrower you do so. In a perfect world the rest of them then drop their guns and surrender. Apparently they did not.

If one subscribes to the eye-for-an-eye approach to ethics, it tends lead to ever escalating waves of violence.

I’m not saying an eye for an eye, I’m saying that the right of a person at gunpoin to stop being held at gunpoint by whatever means get that job done has significant leeway to do so so long as they aren’t being cruel about it. And it looks to me like Cora’s ordanance was fairly quick about it if nothing else.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Let's all take a step back here and remember to stay polite even when disagreeing with each other.

[Traab]

The way I look at it is, if someone points a gun at you and all you have to defend yourself is a howitzer, by all means reduce them to a smear with a howitzer. But expect to get yelled at for damaging the nearby buildings. Self defense is still self defense. Having a more powerful gun than the guy threatening you doesnt mean you arent allowed to defend yourself. Just their bad luck they chose to try to threaten and mug someone equipped to fight thresher maws.

[-D-]

I think people are making some unfounded assumptions about the level of restraint Cora could have shown. Yes, she was acting unpleasantly smug about the carnage, but if somebody attacks you with a knife

Um, no. If the text is correct and unironic, Cora went after the thugs. At that point it stops being self defense.

Considering there are still living people healthy enough to be taken into custody the idea that she was gunning down fleeing people wily nily seems to be stretching it a bit.

The comic shows exactly one survivor out of a gang of six. I someone attacks a group of six and only one survives, I wouldn't really call it self defense.

That would suck for them, but the moment they use lethal force to demand someone else’s property from them things change. The most fundamental and important right in that alley way is the right of the person who is having their life threatened to not have that life threatened anymore. The mugger takes a back seat. You cannot equate the rights of a person being attached with the person attacking them in that moment. Do not threaten people with guns exactly as lethal and make you dead serious as the Flay Thrower, just lacking in flashy names and accompanying gibs.

What happens is more complex. Cora does have the right to self defense, however once she is no longer in danger, she also has the duty to stop killing. Especially if she knows she outclasses them by a mile.

And your using a false equivalency equating using a big gun that blows up the person shooting at you with cold blooded torture. Let’s talk about a bit of reality on how deadly it’s a knife can be. Getting that knife away is going to be hard bordering on impossible without getting cut potentially very badly. Even an experienced capable and trained martial artist accepts they are in most every situation going to get cut of a knife comes at them, the goal is just to get cut somewhere it won’t kill them. Oh and the person with that knife is also probably going to be in a cast at best or dead at worst depending on how things go from there. Guns are worse. Much worse.

Um no, the melted femur demonstrates the overbearing use of force she applied. What kind of "gun" she used has no bearing on the ethics of such an encounter.

If a group of thugs with a gun, corners a martial artist and he turns them into chopped liver, running after and slashing them up - that's not really self defense.

All the skill in the world will still struggle with having to deal with two sets of arms and legs to your one.

Which is why in such situations is important to laugh at your opponent's face, thereby opening yourself to more attack. That or she considers them outclassed, and is not in any real danger, which her being unhurt by the end of the whole kerfuffle, kinda proves.

The way I look at it is, if someone points a gun at you and all you have to defend yourself is a howitzer, by all means reduce them to a smear with a howitzer. But expect to get yelled at for damaging the nearby buildings. Self defense is still self defense. Having a more powerful gun than the guy threatening you doesnt mean you arent allowed to defend yourself. Just their bad luck they chose to try to threaten and mug someone equipped to fight thresher maws.

I wonder how that power dynamic works out... the howitzer is too big to be operated by a single person (efficiently at least) and I'm not sure if one keeps you at gunpoint and able to fire a howitzer

But in theory, if you have a large calibre rifle and are attacked, you should strive to minimize loss of life, prioritizing your own. If at any point those that attacked you run away, you don't have permission to run after them and gun them down.

[Keltest]

Um, no. If the text is correct and unironic, Cora went after the thugs. At that point it stops being self defense.

Im sorry? I seem to recall there being an ambush involved, and not one set up by Cora.

[Forum Explorer]

The way I look at it is, if someone points a gun at you and all you have to defend yourself is a howitzer, by all means reduce them to a smear with a howitzer. But expect to get yelled at for damaging the nearby buildings. Self defense is still self defense. Having a more powerful gun than the guy threatening you doesnt mean you arent allowed to defend yourself. Just their bad luck they chose to try to threaten and mug someone equipped to fight thresher maws.

Sure, if that's your only weapon. But when you can teleport any weapon to your hands, why is your opening move a Flay Thrower? Which really doesn't even sound like a very practical weapon.

[Dragonus45]

The comic shows exactly one survivor out of a gang of six. I someone attacks a group of six and only one survives, I wouldn't really call it self defense.

You see, this sentence makes no sense to mer. If I get attached by 6 people and only one survives my counter then how did that stop it from being self defense? With odds like those you are practically forced to put people down hard enough to kill them so only having one survivor meaning you weren’t acting in self defense is not a statement that computes.

What happens is more complex. Cora does have the right to self defense, however once she is no longer in danger, she also has the duty to stop killing. Especially if she knows she outclasses them by a mile.

What does her having them out classed have to actually do with anything? Unless it’s Maxima levels of outclassing them that doesn’t suddenly mean you have a bunch of extra options to “softly” maim and disable them.

Um no, the melted femur demonstrates the overbearing use of force she applied. What kind of "gun" she used has no bearing on the ethics of such an encounter.

Wait wait wait wait wait. The femur represents her use of force which is bad because it’s overwhelming, but the size of said gun had no bearing on the ethics of the encounter?

If a group of thugs with a gun, corners a martial artist and he turns them into chopped liver, running after and slashing them up - that's not really self defense.

And that’s not what happened here.

Which is why in such situations is important to laugh at your opponent's face, thereby opening yourself to more attack. That or she considers them outclassed, and is not in any real danger, which her being unhurt by the end of the whole kerfuffle, kinda proves.

So, once again, she had them outclassed because she had the firepower and skill to safely kill them. And if I’m reading this argument right the fact she successfully does so means she didn’t have the right to defend herself because they never stood a chance to hurt her in the first place but only because she had the capacity to kill them. Makes perfect sense.

Sure, if that's your only weapon. But when you can teleport any weapon to your hands, why is your opening move a Flay Thrower? Which really doesn't even sound like a very practical weapon.

She probably has some inventory management involved with her stuff just like Dabbler does. And the Flay Thrower sounds like the kind of weapon that works great on fleshy unarmed targets and is probably a great way to open a fight and try to break morale for the other side.

[-D-]

You see, this sentence makes no sense to mer. If I get attached by 6 people and only one survives my counter then how did that stop it from being self defense?

Let's see. You are attacked by six people. You are unscathed, five of the people attacking you are in the morgue and one is in custody. And this sounds normal to you? To me that seems like a high likelihood of foul play on your side.

With odds like those you are practically forced to put people down hard enough to kill them so only having one survivor meaning you weren’t acting in self defense is not a statement that computes.

The fact that you survived the encounter untouched, and 80% of your assailants that had the element of surprise are dead sounds bizarre.

What does her having them out classed have to actually do with anything?

With great power come great responsibility. Cora demonstrated a lot of power, but no responsibility.

E.g. case when driving a car vs walking in the street. Even if a pedestrian is jaywalking, you aren't allowed to just run him over, because he is breaking the law. And a driver sure as hell isn't Maxima.

So, once again, she had them outclassed because she had the firepower and skill to safely kill them. And if I’m reading this argument right the fact she successfully does so means she didn’t have the right to defend herself because

The issue is whether she needed to kill them. If she is that well versed to get out of the situation unscathed, she could have dealt with them without killing nearly all of them. I.e. they weren't a threat to her, she just did it for **** and giggles.

EDIT:

Im sorry? I seem to recall there being an ambush involved, and not one set up by Cora.

The text of the comic update contains following line paraphrased "Things got violent when bad guys started 'defending themselves' and 'running away' ". I'm unsure, but given their surprise, it seems likely that those criminals tried to run away, and that's when things got really ugly.

[Dragonus45]

Let's see. You are attacked by six people. You are unscathed, five of the people attacking you are in the morgue and one is in custody. And this sounds normal to you? To me that seems like a high likelihood of foul play on your side.

There is no such thing as foul play when your life is on the line. Or even in fighting in general. Gouge eyes, go for the groin, bite, kick, scratch, use a nearby rock if it’s handy. Personally I think fighting is the kind of thing that should be avoided at all costs but if you have to do it then hold nothing back.

The fact that you survived the encounter untouched, and 80% of your assailants that had the element of surprise are dead sounds bizarre.

Well they wasted the element of surprise to demand the victims turn over their property. I assume from there they were then very surprised by the Flay Thrower.

With great power come great responsibility. Cora demonstrated a lot of power, but no responsibility.

Other then property damage and a bit of littering how did she act irresponsibly? Her charge walked away safe and alive and she also survived unharmed. Seems like the people SHE was responsible for all made it out ok.

E.g. case when driving a car vs walking in the street. Even if a pedestrian is jaywalking, you aren't allowed to just run him over, because he is breaking the law. And a driver sure as hell isn't Maxima.

Gotcha, so armed muggers attacking two people walking down an alley way are analogous to pedestrians crossing the road in front of truck. This metaphor doesn’t fit though because there is a world of difference between the levels of action between a jay walker and a mugger and because the thing that gets these muggers shot isn’t breaking the stations laws. It’s threatening the life of someone else with lethal weaponry. A more analogous situation that comes to mind would be someone cutting down the shoulder and pulling into my following distance in a construction zone. Good odds are they are gonna get hit if things go even slightly wrong and it’s gonna be their fault. This is an issue of people taking action that endangers other people and themselves and getting a predicable if lamentable response. The only major difference is that the person they mugged had an above average capacity to defend themselves safely.

The issue is whether she needed to kill them. If she is that well versed to get out of the situation unscathed, she could have dealt with them without killing nearly all of them. I.e. they weren't a threat to her, she just did it for **** and giggles.

You are making a lot of assumptions that don’t line up with the text. Just because she survived the situation doesn’t mean there was never any potential risk. Just because she carries enough firepower to win the fight doesn’t mean she has the option to handle it without killing any of them. Even just limbing someone with something named the Flay Thrower is probably causing massive blood loss and shock let alone whatever she used that melted bone. And even if she did have those options if it’s safer to use the Flay Thrower and make sure she walks away from the fight then she has every right to do so. Once again, it seems like people are putting her into a catch 22 where having the capability to survive the situation disqualies her from doing so.

[Douglas]

The issue is whether she needed to kill them. If she is that well versed to get out of the situation unscathed, she could have dealt with them without killing nearly all of them. I.e. they weren't a threat to her, she just did it for **** and giggles.

That is an assumption, and not one with much support in the comic. If she is that well versed in extremely lethal combat to get out unscathed, then she could have dealt with them... by employing her skill in lethal combat, or in other words killing them. Skill at killing people and skill at disabling people non-lethally do not automatically go together.

[Ibrinar]

Why does one side keep ignoring that by word of god part of them were running away when it got ugly I have seen it brought up several times but not really addressed? (Though I guess it could be the one that survived.)

Anyway I think she will stay a character in the comic so the question of whether she could have will be cleared up in time. Of course she is together with someone with an near indestructible shield (I guess we can assume none of the thugs have firepower on the level of the giant things she fought) so if we assume she is fragile the safe tactic would be to get in the bubble from where sidney can deal with them at her leisure. Of course I guess that can be blamed on sidney for not bubbling them both.

Now if we assume the author comment is thought out she levitated a dumpster to crush a single person holding it as a shield first for a moment. That is slow and not effective in a fight against several people since it doesn't stop the rest from attacking her if she is going the overwhelming firepower route crushing a single person with that method is not the way to crush a group before they can strike back (unless we assume her weapon assortment is bad and has nothing for group combat) it only really makes sense if she was playing around which doesn't really gel with the theory that she had to defeat them fast. Same with switching attachments from flail thrower to gravity gun, yes teleport is a fast change but if you need to overwhelm a group with full intention of killing them neither weapon sounds like a good choice and switching still interrupts your barrage of fire. And neither melts bones so she used something else too, switching wildly like that is consistent with playing around not so much with needing to suppress the enemy with overwhelming firepower.

However I don't think we can assume that the author comment or the fight is thought out.

[-D-]

That is an assumption, and not one with much support in the comic. If she is that well versed in extremely lethal combat to get out unscathed, then she could have dealt with them... by employing her skill in lethal combat, or in other words killing them. Skill at killing people and skill at disabling people non-lethally do not automatically go together.

There is no such thing as foul play when your life is on the line. Or even in fighting in general. Gouge eyes, go for the groin, bite, kick, scratch, use a nearby rock if it’s handy. Personally I think fighting is the kind of thing that should be avoided at all costs but if you have to do it then hold nothing back.

Ok you two, an ethics question. You drive a truck on a large parking lot, four people attack you on all four sides but you see that you can run over person in front of you and get away unscathed (assume that you are carrying enough metal that other three people firing will have negligible chance of hurting you). Do you:
A) Run over the person in front of you and escape unscathed?
B) Run over all the attackers?

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Because text below the comic implies (along with Cora's reaction to the muggers) that B) happens, not A). She didn't kill two or three and ran away with Sydney (who she knows possesses a powerful artifacts, if Sydney didn't blab what each of her orb does, so she isn't really "protecting" Sydney as much as escorting her around the border).

Again, my problem isn't that she had bigger guns, or that she had killed some of them. My problem is that she went out of her way to kill them.

[Keltest]

Ok you two, an ethics question. You drive a truck four people attack you on all four sides but you see that you can run over person in front of you and get away unscathed (assume that you are carrying enough metal that other three people firing will have negligible chance of hurting you). Do you:
A) Run over the person in front of you and escape unscathed?
B) Run over the person in front of you and their accomplices?

Spoiler

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Because text below the comic implies (along with Cora's reaction to the muggers) that B) happens, not A). She didn't kill two or three and ran away with Sydney (who she knows possesses a powerful artifacts, if Sydney didn't blab what each of her orb does, so she isn't really "protecting" Sydney as much as escorting her around the border).

Again, my problem isn't that she had bigger guns, or that she had killed some of them. My problem is that she went out of her way to kill them.

She didn't even leave the alleyway. She's annoyingly smug about it, but I see no indication that she had some super precise non-lethal takedown weapon readily available, at least some of them were still actively attacking her.

[Forum Explorer]

She probably has some inventory management involved with her stuff just like Dabbler does. And the Flay Thrower sounds like the kind of weapon that works great on fleshy unarmed targets and is probably a great way to open a fight and try to break morale for the other side.

It sounds like the sort of weapon that is banned for being too cruel to use against living targets. Some kind of concussive grenade launcher would be a practical weapon to open a fight against a group and break morale. A giant blast of sound and fury, shattering skulls and eardrums depending on proximity. A Flay Launcher just sounds cruel and unusual. I mean, going from the name, it's a torture gun.

[-D-]

She didn't even leave the alleyway. She's annoyingly smug about it, but I see no indication that she had some super precise non-lethal takedown weapon readily available, at least some of them were still actively attacking her.

According to word of God, things got violent AFTER the goons started running and trying to defend themselves. To me that reeks of disapropriate retribution. Even Krav Maga martial artists are trained to use it just enough to make sure you get home safely, not kill them all.

If at any point of the fight your enemies are covering in fear or running away, no code of ethics (other than some blood vendetta code of conduct) allows you to hunt them down and kill them like you are the mother****ing Punisher.

[Dragonus45]

According to word of God, things got violent AFTER the goons started running and trying to defend themselves. To me that reeks of disapropriate retribution. Even Krav Maga martial artists are trained to use it just enough to make sure you get home safely, not kill them all.

If at any point of the fight your enemies are covering in fear or running away, no code of ethics (other than some blood vendetta code of conduct) allows you to hunt them down and kill them like you are the mother****ing Punisher.

People are way over relying on the off hand comment that at least one tried to run away as some argument that she gunned them all down from behind as they fled. First off the comment mentions that they also fought back, we also have one totally healthy survivor to be arrested by the cops. Basic reasoning here is that she wasn’t blowing away surrendering people like targets at a shooting range and to pretend otherwise is wrong.

Ok you two, an ethics question. You drive a truck on a large parking lot, four people attack you on all four sides but you see that you can run over person in front of you and get away unscathed (assume that you are carrying enough metal that other three people firing will have negligible chance of hurting you). Do you:
A) Run over the person in front of you and escape unscathed?
B) Run over all the attackers?

You know I think I might actually be barred from answering this one for work so I’m gonna skip it.

Again, my problem isn't that she had bigger guns, or that she had killed some of them. My problem is that she went out of her way to kill them.

Your assumption, with little to no bearing in the text, is that she went out of her way to kill them. And that assumption is based on the fact that she won the fight unharmed. Which she won because she carries significant firepower and knows how to use it. We see nothing and have been told nothing that indicates she had any mace or a taser or a sleep ray. We have seen her friend Dabbler mention that she still needed to switch most of her own stuff to noblethal however, and Cora herself has mentioned that this is her average amount of firepower that she carries around.

[Traab]

Sure, if that's your only weapon. But when you can teleport any weapon to your hands, why is your opening move a Flay Thrower? Which really doesn't even sound like a very practical weapon.

When your ordinance STARTS at flay thrower and just scales up from there, because, again, equipped to fight thresher maws not back alley hoodlums, that may have been her best option. For all we know her more extreme options end with nuclear fire raining down over the city block. Even dabbler only now is building things that are meant to be nonlethal as she only had a few random tools that could work, including a device meant to restrain meteors. If you ever played an MMORPG like World of Warcraft or Everquest or whatever, its like leaving the end game raid zone you have spent months farming and getting attacked by some level 3 bandit. Any attack you use on it will be hilariously overpowered for the encounter. Hes got like 300 hit points, and your auto attack does over 3k a shot. Dabbler and cora are both used to fighting in extremely high end encounters and their tools are leveled up to match. They dont tend to carry basic pistols because the stuff they deal with wouldnt even notice those.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think the people arguing about the morality of Cora's actions are forgetting a cruicial detail - much like Dabbler, Cora is an adventurer. And on top of that, operates in an entirely different social environment than what we're used to.

Here on Earth, Cora's actions would have been reprehensible, and would have gotten her tried for grossly overstepping the bounds of acceptable self-defense. On the Fracture she has special status, but I would guess that in most other places she operates in, she would still not be prosecuted for defending her life and possessions with lethal force, simply because the legal systems have been created differently.

On Earth, we have come to value "human lives" so much that we would go so far as to protect the perpetrator from the wrath of the victim - which, if you go the "cold heartless logic" route, is highly counterproductive. It promotes survival of the criminals, makes "mild crime" seem like an acceptable risk since it doesn't put the criminal's life in danger.

From an alien society's point of view, we could be seen as insane to go as far as we do to protect those whose actions don't make them deserving of protection.

[Traab]

Well that explains why cora is such a murder happy sociopath. /nod. School bullies suck.

[Onyavar]

That whole ethics discussion here makes me wonder again what the storytelling purpose was to introduce these muggers. The crisis is set up in two strips, solved offpanel, and needs to be shrugged off in two more comics.

Will anything come out of this scene? Like Sydney lecturing Cora on Archon ethics, showing how much she learned already? Or the other way round, will Cora rub off on Sydney who becomes more ruthless?
If these muggers were only a setup to show off Cora's character (which is how most comic mugging scenes work, let's be honest - the muggers(s) are in most cases cheaper throwaway story devices that the hero is supposed to overcome to show what they are worth), it certainly didn't work as intended by the author. He probably was going for the 'awesome!' reaction,, not the 'this was morally reprehensible!' one.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure we are a representative sample of reactions. I've looked through the comments for the last few pages on the comic site, and the question of Moral Justification doesn't even seem to get brought up by anyone. There's a longer discussion about the morality of Batman than there is Cora.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Dave could well have purged comment strings that were getting too flamey.