Grrl Power IV: Constantly Expanded Universe

[Kantaki]

I could understand the complaints if this were a dedicated hard science-fiction story.
But it isn't. Not even Star Trek level hard.

Hell, this isn't even a soft SF story.
We are talking about a superhero kitchen-sink story with everything from Fantasy to Space Opera thrown in.

In a verse that has space-travelling, magic using, tinkering alien-demon-hybrids Dabbler interbreeding aliens are probably the least offense.

And, I mean, didn't we know this was possible since Dabbler?

And whats-her-name, the chick who got powers from touching people- lets call her Anti-Othala, it fits in more than one way -said something about her dad allegedly being non-human too.

[lord_khaine]

And whats-her-name, the chick who got powers from touching people- lets call her Anti-Othala, it fits in more than one way -said something about her dad allegedly being non-human too.

No she just said she didnt know her dad.

Sydney then had Sydney moment.

[Kantaki]

No she just said she didnt know her dad.

Sydney then had Sydney moment.

Right. Seems I mixed that scene up.
In my defense, it's been almost four years.
I only remembered her saying something about what her mom said about it (That he was an Aztec it turns out) and that it caused Halo to start a betting pool.

[halfeye]

Well here's the thing though, convergent evolution is "a thing" because evolution reacts to external pressures. While the results will not be identical (unless under absolutely identical conditions and in a fully deterministic universe), the same set of pressures will result in broadly the same developments.

Wings are not all the same. They're all wings, and they work in air, but they're not the same. Bat wings and bird wings are different. Working in air is the convergent bit, but it doesn't make them the same.

Whether or not they'll end up genetically compatible to ours is another thing entirely, but another planet with the same composition, in the same temperature band of the same class of star as Earth, will more or less end up developing the same kinds of carbon-based lifeforms. The details will be different, but with the same stuff to work with, chemistry will create the same building blocks of life. The same kind of organisms will dominate, the same kind of organisms will be the first to leave the water and go on land. The same kind of sunlight and the same kind of water will cause the same kind of plants to grow, causing the same kind of atmospheric makeup. It all goes along the chain from there, to mammalian arboreal species that gradually develop intelligence and society, and eventually arrive at the same kind of mostly hairless, upright bipedal mammal with sexual dimorphism.

We don't at all know if some of that's true, and other bits clearly aren't. There could have been reptiles with complete thermoregulation, or mammaries. Even if you ended up with mammals, people could just as easily evolve from baboons as from chimps.

There are plenty of alternate possible intelligent lifeforms among the mammals, or among non-vertebrates. Coconut crabs have lungs, give them a quarter of a billion years and they might become people.

The only major wrinkle in this concept is the one or three extinction events that our planet had to go through, with the biggest (or at least most recent) being the asteroid impact that wiped the planet of oversized, energy-inefficient and ambient-temperature-sensitive reptiles, and only allowed smaller and more warm-blooded specimens like mammals to really go forward on land. However, it may just be that it's the kind of "interference" an outside agent seeking to populate the galaxy with similar lifeforms could enact. The effects of a properly aimed asteroid aren't exactly unpredictable, not if you've seen it happen several times already. It may be that without a timely rock to put on some extra pressure, a typical Earth-like planet would forever be stalled in a primal wilds state, dominated by creatures that can't support the energy balance required by an intelligence level that would allow them to form language and tool use.

Humans are a random accident, it's lucky for us, but the odds of that particular accident recurring elsewhere are quadrillions to one agains.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, since we're about a hundred posts from the next thread, everybody needs to keep an eye open for good lines suitable for a new title over the next couple weeks.

[lord_khaine]

There are plenty of alternate possible intelligent lifeforms among the mammals, or among non-vertebrates. Coconut crabs have lungs, give them a quarter of a billion years and they might become people.

Yes. Why we also have other alien species.

Humans are a random accident, it's lucky for us, but the odds of that particular accident recurring elsewhere are quadrillions to one agains.

Likely not that big.
And if you have enough sites on a planet it can occur by. And Enough time, then well it will likely repeat.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Wings are not all the same. They're all wings, and they work in air, but they're not the same. Bat wings and bird wings are different. Working in air is the convergent bit, but it doesn't make them the same.

Bat wings and bird wings are not that fundamentally different. They are both a mutation of the upper skeleton's forelimbs, adapted to flight by increasing the surface area. Bat wings evolved from a mammalian template - a membrane of skin between the body and the grotesquely elongated digits of a grasping manipulator. Bird wings evolved, possibly, from a reptilian template following the extinction event - the same membrane of skin, between the body and only one enlarged digit and the rest of the limb, covered in semi-articulate mutated scales adapted for flight.

They were two entirely different branches of the evolution tree, but with the same pressure (needing to fly) and similar things to work with (air, bilateral symmetry of skeleton, skin covering) they evolved into very similar structures.

We don't at all know if some of that's true, and other bits clearly aren't. There could have been reptiles with complete thermoregulation, or mammaries. Even if you ended up with mammals, people could just as easily evolve from baboons as from chimps.

And that would have been entirely fine. Baboons are still arboreal and omnivorous, they still have bilateral symmetry, sexual dimorphism, grasping appendages, vocal capacity, social structures, etc. For the purpose of this experiment it would not have mattered what exact species the "humans" ended up being.

There are plenty of alternate possible intelligent lifeforms among the mammals, or among non-vertebrates. Coconut crabs have lungs, give them a quarter of a billion years and they might become people.

They probably won't, not without being pressured to do so. Life tends to reach an equilibrium with its pressures and stay there. And even if, say, coconut crabs could evolve into a society, surely dolphins would have beaten them there. It's not about what species could become intelligent, it's about what species is the first to do so. In an Earthlike environment, with an oxygen atmosphere, sunlight, and a variety of tall and short plants and varied other animals, an omnivorous, endoskeletal, arboreal creature capable of tool use, is likely going to succeed the fastest, simply because it can make use of all kinds of foods, can move around freely to locate food sources/shelter, and once tool use begins the evolutionary pressure of the remaining surrounding threats drives it to come up with better tools to compensate for what remaining weaknesses it has, thus improving its intelligence further and faster.

Humans are a random accident, it's lucky for us, but the odds of that particular accident recurring elsewhere are quadrillions to one agains.

Humans as we know them exactly, are an accident. Humanoids in general, are just the result of a particular kind of environment and a few lucky rocks.

[lord_khaine]

I though about it a little more.
Maxima's geode is a perfect example of how an ascended alien civilisation of the type that made Sydney's orbs can encourage specific mutations.
Or directly create them.

Lets just for fun assume the changes that hit Max has at least partial effect on her DNA.
And then that this took place.. lets say just at the time where Mammals began experimenting with this strange new "hand" concept.
If one Lucky primate suddenly grew 10 times as tough, 10 times as strong, and got a 100% lifetime boost.
Then its genes would spread like wildfire, especially if its offspring were 10 % smarter or something like that.
But its the sort of meddling that would be impossible to detect 10.000 years later.

So really, the sort of genetic meddling that could have lead to almost-humans on several different planets,
are actually easy to pull off that the level of the civilisation we suspect being responsible.

[Max_Killjoy]

Bat wings and bird wings are not that fundamentally different. They are both a mutation of the upper skeleton's forelimbs, adapted to flight by increasing the surface area. Bat wings evolved from a mammalian template - a membrane of skin between the body and the grotesquely elongated digits of a grasping manipulator. Bird wings evolved, possibly, from a reptilian template following the extinction event - the same membrane of skin, between the body and only one enlarged digit and the rest of the limb, covered in semi-articulate mutated scales adapted for flight.

Nitpick, birds probably already existed before the KT extinction, and the connection to the dinosaurs (not reptiles) is pretty much locked in, to the point where some want to change the taxonomy to make it explicit -- that is, birds are more closely related (evolutionary and anatomically) to dinosaurs than dinosaurs are to reptiles.

[halfeye]

Bat wings and bird wings are not that fundamentally different. They are both a mutation of the upper skeleton's forelimbs, adapted to flight by increasing the surface area. Bat wings evolved from a mammalian template - a membrane of skin between the body and the grotesquely elongated digits of a grasping manipulator. Bird wings evolved, possibly, from a reptilian template following the extinction event - the same membrane of skin, between the body and only one enlarged digit and the rest of the limb, covered in semi-articulate mutated scales adapted for flight.

They were two entirely different branches of the evolution tree, but with the same pressure (needing to fly) and similar things to work with (air, bilateral symmetry of skeleton, skin covering) they evolved into very similar structures.

They are somewhat similar structures, because they have to do the same job, and the job requires that sort of structure. They are not compatible in that you could put a bat wing on a bird, it would be rejected as foreign tissue.

And that would have been entirely fine. Baboons are still arboreal and omnivorous, they still have bilateral symmetry, sexual dimorphism, grasping appendages, vocal capacity, social structures, etc. For the purpose of this experiment it would not have mattered what exact species the "humans" ended up being.

Arboreal? What do you think that word means?

Baboons live on plains, or on mountains, not in forests.

They probably won't, not without being pressured to do so. Life tends to reach an equilibrium with its pressures and stay there. And even if, say, coconut crabs could evolve into a society, surely dolphins would have beaten them there. It's not about what species could become intelligent, it's about what species is the first to do so. In an Earthlike environment, with an oxygen atmosphere, sunlight, and a variety of tall and short plants and varied other animals, an omnivorous, endoskeletal, arboreal creature capable of tool use, is likely going to succeed the fastest, simply because it can make use of all kinds of foods, can move around freely to locate food sources/shelter, and once tool use begins the evolutionary pressure of the remaining surrounding threats drives it to come up with better tools to compensate for what remaining weaknesses it has, thus improving its intelligence further and faster.

Dolphins can't use tools. It's barely possible that there are intelligent cetaceans, but they aren't human whether they are intelligent or not.

Humans as we know them exactly, are an accident. Humanoids in general, are just the result of a particular kind of environment and a few lucky rocks.

That's the entire difference between humans and other peoples, other peoples also being known as intelligent aliens. I've no problem with fictional aliens, it's off-Earth originated humans that are completely ridiculous.

[lord_khaine]

That's the entire difference between humans and other peoples, other peoples also being known as intelligent aliens. I've no problem with fictional aliens, it's off-Earth originated humans that are completely ridiculous.

Except its very easily accomplished the moment you have an ascendant civilisation meddling in things.

[halfeye]

Except its very easily accomplished the moment you have an ascendant civilisation meddling in things.

No, it isn't. It just can't be done without constant continuous meddling, weekly meddling.

Everything on Earth is related to everything else. We are something like 90% identical to lions, and equally so to all the other mammal, except the great apes where it's more like 99%. Lobsters, crabs and squid it's probably down somewhere like 60-50%. Cabbages it's probably as low as 35% (that's all my guesses, I think I heard the lion one somewhere, but I don't remember where). Really, we are all related. If you want something with the same DNA by accident, the odds are ridiculously long, all the atoms in the universe against one long.

[lord_khaine]

Alright, now your just being contrary.
The demand for weekly meddling is blown so far out of proportion its not even funny.
Evolution goes -extremely- slow. I believe if you took a caveman and stuffed him into a suit, noone would notice if you dropped him down in the nearest town.

Everything on Earth is related to everything else. We are something like 90% identical to lions, and equally so to all the other mammal, except the great apes where it's more like 99%. Lobsters, crabs and squid it's probably down somewhere like 60-50%. Cabbages it's probably as low as 35% (that's all my guesses, I think I heard the lion one somewhere, but I don't remember where). Really, we are all related. If you want something with the same DNA by accident, the odds are ridiculously long, all the atoms in the universe against one long.

I dont see any relevance to the rant about what we are related to.
But this is bashing against a strawman. I dont think there are -anyone- besides you who have suggested it should have happend by accident.

[Kantaki]

No, it isn't. It just can't be done without constant continuous meddling, weekly meddling.

So? This is a comic about a girl that's empowered by what amounts to Clarke-Tech even by the standards of vastly more advanced people.

Another character is a alien-demon mix who uses both magic and space tech.

Not to mention our Goddess of Ash who got turned into a golden elf with enough firepower to disprove „There is no overkill” by geode water.

With all the fantasy and sci-fi stuff already in this comic various aliens being compatible with each other isn't that weird, constantly meddling precursors or not.
For all we know there's a medical treatment for that.

Seriously, is Cora having a space-(great)grandparent really that problematic?
Or her claiming to be human?

I mean for all we know her family does come from Earth and either left with space-spouse or sent Cora off to live with her space-family so she could have a normal live*.
You know, because she was born without limbs.

*In Space!

[Ibrinar]

They are not compatible in that you could put a bat wing on a bird, it would be rejected as foreign tissue.

Sure but if you took one bat's wings and put it on another bat that would be rejected as foreign tissue too, which is why for humans implants involve anti rejection med. (But yeah you can get something pretty similar with evolution but something that actually counts as same species would be insanely improbable.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Seriously, is Cora having a space-(great)grandparent really that problematic?
Or her claiming to be human?

If one grandparent is 1/16th alien, then that means one great-grandparent at 1/8th, a great-great-grandparent at 1/4th, a great-great-great grandparent at half and thus the alien was a great-great-great-great-grandparent. Using the standard 25 years per generation and (for convenience) setting Cora's birth year as 1975, that would establish a chain of 1975-1950-1925-1900-1875-1850, so said alien ancestor was getting jiggy back before the U.S. Civil War (or the Crimean War, for a European reference).

It all just adds more and more questions every time you think about it. What would a half-alien look like? How did they avoid getting lynch-mobbed at a time when strange=satanic? If they left right away, why is the rest of her ancestry human?

Again, Dave shot himself in the foot by not thinking it through.

[lord_khaine]

Oh well. Turns out some humans were just picked up over the years. Alien abductions and all.
But guess we might get an actual explanation for the humanoid thing being so common.

[Kantaki]

Huh. So there's space-humans cause some starship crews shanghai'd locals?

Well, better someone who has to learn everything about the job than having no one to do the job I guess.

And, as Cora said, there's always been the kind of weirdos who'd volunteer.
Guilty!

[-D-]

And, as Cora said, there's always been the kind of weirdos who'd volunteer.
Guilty!

If we are talking about realistic worlds? Congratulations. You are the willing recipient of one/or more SPACE PLAGUE. At best, you can never return to Earth (hope you said your goodbyes). At worst, you will die of alien pathogen thinking you are space furry, causing horrible painful skin blisters, while your every hair burning like a thousand suns.

But this is GRRRLPOWER!! Technology is Magic!

[lord_khaine]

If we are talking about realistic worlds? Congratulations. You are the willing recipient of one/or more SPACE PLAGUE. At best, you can never return to Earth (hope you said your goodbyes). At worst, you will die of alien pathogen thinking you are space furry, causing horrible painful skin blisters, while your every hair burning like a thousand suns.

But this is GRRRLPOWER!! Technology is Magic!

Hmm.. if we are being completely realistic.
Then should you not be to alien for a space plague to work on?

And else, we have a situation where countless worlds intermingle.
There should be procedures in place to handling a virgin immune system being introduced to something it has newer encountered before.
Else worlds like the Nexus trading station would be impossible. In part because following that logic, then your new crew would at the same time die from a cold.

[Traab]

If we are talking about realistic worlds? Congratulations. You are the willing recipient of one/or more SPACE PLAGUE. At best, you can never return to Earth (hope you said your goodbyes). At worst, you will die of alien pathogen thinking you are space furry, causing horrible painful skin blisters, while your every hair burning like a thousand suns.

But this is GRRRLPOWER!! Technology is Magic!

How is the idea of generic vaccinations by races advanced enough to travel the galaxy on a whim magic? They already have to learn to adapt them to deal with the dozens or hundreds of alien species that are already traveling through the area needing inoculations, not too mention dealing with whatever random new world THEY land on (such as earth) being able to inoculate yourself and others is basically one of those things that has to happen before space travel to other populated worlds can exist. So again, arguing against the possibility of humans being able to do it just brings up how nothing at all in this comic could ever work and the catgirls are dying at a ferocious rate. Its no more magic than the idea of the galactic republic in star wars, or the ability to bump uglies with almost anything in star trek or literally any other sci fi work that has ever been written. This is science fiction, not science "lets predict the future" Stop acting offended because according to your understanding of the various scientific fields this cant happen for whatever reason. Im starting to think some of you complainers just despise the whole genre rather than find something objectionable about this particular universe.

[-D-]

Hmm.. if we are being completely realistic.
Then should you not be to alien for a space plague to work on?

If you can indeed interbreed with aliens, then you share enough genetic similarities to share infections, in theory (we can't interbreed with cows but can inherit their virus/bacteria aka the plague) But since each alien would have their own version of plagues (from the time they lived with their animals), and all races they encounter would also have their plagues, they can pass onto you.

And else, we have a situation where countless worlds intermingle.
There should be procedures in place to handling a virgin immune system being introduced to something it has newer encountered before.
Else worlds like the Nexus trading station would be impossible. In part because following that logic, then your new crew would at the same time die from a cold.

There is always the first time. Secondly, that's why I wrote: "At best you can never return to Earth". Sure Nexus station has "Hyper immunization A/C" and "Space Infection Tech", but does plain old Earth has it? Is Deus a walking Space Plague Mary?

That said, I could be missing some pieces, plague dynamics is a complex matter.

PS:

How is the idea of generic vaccinations by races advanced enough to travel the galaxy on a whim magic? They already have to learn to adapt them to deal with the dozens or hundreds of alien species that are already traveling through the area needing inoculations, not too mention dealing with whatever random new world THEY land on (such as earth) being able to inoculate yourself and others is basically one of those things that has to happen before space travel to other populated worlds can exist. So again, arguing against the possibility of humans being able to do it just brings up how nothing at all in this comic could ever work and the catgirls are dying at a ferocious rate. Its no more magic than the idea of the galactic republic in star wars, or the ability to bump uglies with almost anything in star trek or literally any other sci fi work that has ever been written. This is science fiction, not science "lets predict the future" Stop acting offended because according to your understanding of the various scientific fields this cant happen for whatever reason. Im starting to think some of you complainers just despise the whole genre rather than find something objectionable about this particular universe.

You know how vaccinations work, right? Your immune system usually doesn't completely eradicate the pathogen, just keeps it in check. Just because you are immune to a virus, doesn't mean you are virus-free. Remember that NA settlers were immune to plagues, but could totally infect others because some were still carriers. Same principle here. Even if you vaccinate someone, you'd have to completely remove all traces of all pathogens and all their mutations.

Why I'm complaining isn't hard to understand. This is Science Fantasy. If Cora/Dave was content with just "Sup I'm an alien" and jumped on a ship and went into space I would have been fine. Point is Cora ( I mean Dave) is trying to explain that she is both human and that human/aliens have interacted in science terms, and failing at it.

Think about back to Star Wars. When Force was a mysterious power that allowed Space Wizard Samurai to exist, it was ok. Not many people were like, yeah, that's unrealistic. But then George Lucas drank some stupid juice and decided, no, by God he's going to explain Force in SCIENTIFIC TERM! Cue Midichlorians. And suddenly everyone complained. Because it ruined self consistence of his work.

[Max_Killjoy]

Obviously it was ALIENS!

[-D-]

obviously it was aliens!

A WIZARD Did IT!

[Kantaki]

Obviously it was ALIENS!

A WIZARD Did IT!

ALIEN WIZARDS!

[Max_Killjoy]

For those who don't get the joke with this guy...




From the insipid show on the "History" channel, Ancient Aliens.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Again I point out that Dave didn't bother to think it through. He's the worst of all world-builders, the guy who thinks he has to justify OMG AWESOME with trivial doesn't matter factoids that actively wreck the awesome.

[-D-]

For those who don't get the joke with this guy...

And my joke is about a Simpson episode, where every weird inconsistency in Xena Warrior Princess was explained by "A Wizard Did it"

[HandofShadows]

Again I point out that Dave didn't bother to think it through. He's the worst of all world-builders, the guy who thinks he has to justify OMG AWESOME with trivial doesn't matter factoids that actively wreck the awesome.

Or he has and you are so busy being negative you don't see it. Or want to see it.

[The Glyphstone]

So yeah, convergent evolution lines aren't technomagically compatible, Cora is literally part human because humans hitched rides on alien tramp freighters in the past.