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Thread: War Wizard fix

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default War Wizard fix

    With the initial shine wearing off the War Wizard subclass, it seems to generally be regarded as one of the weaker Wizard subclasses. Many of its main draws are overshadowed by the Bladesinger, which typically does AC and Concentration checks better. War Wizard is still great for two level dips, but pretty much every other Wizard subclass has more to show from level 6 and beyond.

    The main target of ire seems to be the level 6 ability, Power Surge. It's admittedly weak to balance out the excellent Arcane Deflection, but I think WotC overcorrected in their efforts to match other subclass abilities. I've seen it defended as a ribbon, but the whole point of ribbons is to add flavor and unexpected minor utility. An ability that adds a smidgeon more damage, a few times per day, doesn't add much flavor and essentially no utility. It suggests that the War Wizard is excellent at countering magic but translates that as an occasional slight damage buff.

    My fix to this problem is to let War Wizards add their proficiency bonus to checks made to Dispel or Counterspell a spell. This makes them the most effective Counterspeller in the game, putting them above all Bards with their half-proficiency boost. It's fitting for a subclass that's clearly geared towards combatting other spellcasters! But it's still not an especially strong ability, as the War Wizard would never be guaranteed to negate a spell above the level they're casting at.

    I think it provides a bit more flavor to the subclass and gives it a minor boost to give the War Wizard more identity and a little more power at 6th level. Thoughts?

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Your proposed fix steps directly on the toes of the Abjurer's 10th level ability.

    I don't think there's an issue with the nature of the 6th level ability itself (guaranteed, action economy free bonus damage once per every rest and a tangible incentive to burn slots defending the party is great), I think the issue with it might actually be the amount of damage. If the damage was changed to Wizard level instead of half it would be a noticeable increase and play into the War magic theming of the school.
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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    For me, the war wizard is a flop because there's nothing inspiring in it. It LACKS ribbons. And its abilities are flavorless. You could have called it "duelist wizard" or "coffee addict wizard" and it would have been more flavorful just by the humorous suggested explanation as to why they get the init boost.

    It doesn't DO anything exciting, just mechanically good (at least at level 2), and it certainly doesn't feel "war wizard"-y.

    I have some loose brainstorm-y ideas, but you asked for feedback on yours, not someone else's build (even though I wouldn't have even started thinking about this without seeing your thread).

    Again, I don't see much flavorful about "war wizard" in a numeric boost to counterspelling, especially since just upcasting the spell is the more likely solution. Risking a 3rd-level spell slot is only going to happen if they are guessing about the target spell's level, or can't afford to match it but still want to at least try. The Abjuror's ability to snap up some spell slot energy is certainly better. And, again, this fix feels more like something that goes on the "duelist wizard" (just like the init boost) than on a "war wizard."

    A war wizard should have things that make him more effective as artillary and as mass crowd control or buffing. Things that let him sacrifice precision for size, or which let him extend his support to larger units. Not an evoker, who can drop fireballs on his allies, but an artillarist who can drop fireballs on the left flank of an army. The trick would be to keep him from stepping more on sorcerers' metamagical toes than is absolutely necessary, and keeping him relevant in the focus of the game: small scale battles. A theme of remote-casting might work. Not "500 miles away in a bunker" remote, but "from across the battlefield" remote.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    For me, the war wizard is a flop because there's nothing inspiring in it. It LACKS ribbons. And its abilities are flavorless. You could have called it "duelist wizard" or "coffee addict wizard" and it would have been more flavorful just by the humorous suggested explanation as to why they get the init boost.

    It doesn't DO anything exciting, just mechanically good (at least at level 2), and it certainly doesn't feel "war wizard"-y.

    I have some loose brainstorm-y ideas, but you asked for feedback on yours, not someone else's build (even though I wouldn't have even started thinking about this without seeing your thread).

    Again, I don't see much flavorful about "war wizard" in a numeric boost to counterspelling, especially since just upcasting the spell is the more likely solution. Risking a 3rd-level spell slot is only going to happen if they are guessing about the target spell's level, or can't afford to match it but still want to at least try. The Abjuror's ability to snap up some spell slot energy is certainly better. And, again, this fix feels more like something that goes on the "duelist wizard" (just like the init boost) than on a "war wizard."

    A war wizard should have things that make him more effective as artillary and as mass crowd control or buffing. Things that let him sacrifice precision for size, or which let him extend his support to larger units. Not an evoker, who can drop fireballs on his allies, but an artillarist who can drop fireballs on the left flank of an army. The trick would be to keep him from stepping more on sorcerers' metamagical toes than is absolutely necessary, and keeping him relevant in the focus of the game: small scale battles. A theme of remote-casting might work. Not "500 miles away in a bunker" remote, but "from across the battlefield" remote.
    I think, between Sorcerer, Evoker, and Abjurer, that perhaps there just shouldn't be a War Wizard. As you note, it's not super clear what they're for. Magical dueling is for Abjurers. Mass destruction is for Evokers. Twiddling with spell effects is for Sorcerers. What are they even for?

    Edit: also, I'm not sure that Arcane Deflection even is all that great. The sacrifice of not casting noncantrip spells on your next turn is huge.
    Last edited by Mr Adventurer; 2020-05-07 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Edit: also, I'm not sure that Arcane Deflection even is all that great. The sacrifice of not casting noncantrip spells on your next turn is huge.
    It's pretty good for a Fighter multiclass. Indomitable + Arcane Deflection ~= Paladin-class saving throws, plus you pick up a familiar and Shield spell and maybe a few defensive spells like Protection From Evil and Expeditious Retreat and if you go to Wizard 3 also Blur and Rope Trick and Magic Weapon. Along with Diviner, War Wizard is one of the better dips.

    As a full Wizard class, well, it depends. Some wizards cast their big concentration spells before combat (Polymorph, Conjure Elemental) and in that case Arcane Deflection doesn't hurt much.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I agree with Mr. Adventurer - War Wizard to me as written, always seemed like "here's Bladesinger for non-elves." Obviously, elven martial prowess takes precedence, so those races that lack such prowess get a boost to arcane damage instead (albeit too small and not very exciting, as noted in the OP).

    As such, I would offer than any fix should make the War Wizard akin to what the War Domain does for clerics: grant a bit of martial prowess but still be primarily a full caster. Or, taken another way, if an EK is a fighter that dabbles in magic and uses it to the enhance their weapon fighting, a WW should be a wizard that dabbles in weapon fighting and uses it to enhance their spell casting.

    As it currently stands, it certainly DOES NOT do that.

    Sadly, outside of directing where I think the subclass should go, I have little interest in actually working on ideas to get it there. At least at the moment. But I think it would be very interesting if there were racial overtones, akin to the Bladesinger, so that, for instance, dwarves get a bennie for using hammers and axes; drow for rapiers and hand crossbows, etc.
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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I think, between Sorcerer, Evoker, and Abjurer, that perhaps there just shouldn't be a War Wizard. As you note, it's not super clear what they're for. Magical dueling is for Abjurers. Mass destruction is for Evokers. Twiddling with spell effects is for Sorcerers. What are they even for?

    Edit: also, I'm not sure that Arcane Deflection even is all that great. The sacrifice of not casting noncantrip spells on your next turn is huge.
    This is a good point. What WOULD a War Wizard be? Master of large battlefield effects? Local diviner scrying out enemy positions and managing a strategic or tactical map?

    I have this vague notion for "Fog of War" as an ability wherein he can see through fog cloud or something, or can place it in places he can't see to make others unable to use it, or ... something.

    But yeah, I think the space is covered.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I would've been much happier if War Wizard actually enabled a new combat tactic. I like Bladesinger because it encourages wizards to use spells that they normally wouldn't on account of their squishiness such as Investiture of Stone and Shadow Blade. It doesn't even have to be major, Sculpt Spells forever differentiates the Evoker from other wizards with a simple change at 2nd-level.

    I think War Wizard should've been the forced movement specialist wizard. For example:

    L2 Forceful Spell: Every time you hit an enemy with a spell attack roll or cause them to fail a dexterity or strength saving throw against your wizard spells you move them 10 feet and add 10 feet to any dictated movement you cause from spells that already have it.

    L6: Heavy Spell: Until the end of your next turn, if you cause a creature to fail a dexterity or strength saving throw against one of your spells, the creature can only stand up from prone that turn if they make a Constitution save against your wizard spell save DC at the start of their turn.

    L10: Steal Momentum: When you cast a wizard spell that moves a creature from their starting position, you can allow one creature within 30' feet to move their speed. This movement does not draw opportunity attacks. If the creature expends their reaction instead, they can teleport that distance.

    L14: Chains of Force: Twice per short rest, when a creature makes an Acrobatics, Athletics, Strength Saving Throw, or Dexterity Saving throw you can force them to make a Strength or Dexterity ability check (your choice) instead.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    This is a good point. What WOULD a War Wizard be? Master of large battlefield effects? Local diviner scrying out enemy positions and managing a strategic or tactical map?

    I have this vague notion for "Fog of War" as an ability wherein he can see through fog cloud or something, or can place it in places he can't see to make others unable to use it, or ... something.

    But yeah, I think the space is covered.
    Master of Intelligence and Logistics. Lots of recon spells, strategic deception spells, spells for building bridges and erecting fortifications, communication spells to coordinate parts of a large army... very few direct damage spells, but enough personal protection spells to survive a large battle without dying to a stray arrow.

    But for War in the D&D-sense of "small-scale tactical combat"... if War Wizard 2 came with light armor proficiency, and War Wizard 6 came with medium armor + shields proficiency instead of a mostly-pointless damage boost, that would make level 6 seem significantly less lame and more War-Wizard-y without actually changing overall balance much, since armor proficiency can be gotten through other means anyway.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Your proposed fix steps directly on the toes of the Abjurer's 10th level ability.

    I don't think there's an issue with the nature of the 6th level ability itself (guaranteed, action economy free bonus damage once per every rest and a tangible incentive to burn slots defending the party is great), I think the issue with it might actually be the amount of damage. If the damage was changed to Wizard level instead of half it would be a noticeable increase and play into the War magic theming of the school.
    I'd forgotten about the Abjurer's ability. You're right, there's too much overlap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    For me, the war wizard is a flop because there's nothing inspiring in it. It LACKS ribbons. And its abilities are flavorless. You could have called it "duelist wizard" or "coffee addict wizard" and it would have been more flavorful just by the humorous suggested explanation as to why they get the init boost.

    It doesn't DO anything exciting, just mechanically good (at least at level 2), and it certainly doesn't feel "war wizard"-y.

    I have some loose brainstorm-y ideas, but you asked for feedback on yours, not someone else's build (even though I wouldn't have even started thinking about this without seeing your thread).

    Again, I don't see much flavorful about "war wizard" in a numeric boost to counterspelling, especially since just upcasting the spell is the more likely solution. Risking a 3rd-level spell slot is only going to happen if they are guessing about the target spell's level, or can't afford to match it but still want to at least try. The Abjuror's ability to snap up some spell slot energy is certainly better. And, again, this fix feels more like something that goes on the "duelist wizard" (just like the init boost) than on a "war wizard."

    A war wizard should have things that make him more effective as artillary and as mass crowd control or buffing. Things that let him sacrifice precision for size, or which let him extend his support to larger units. Not an evoker, who can drop fireballs on his allies, but an artillarist who can drop fireballs on the left flank of an army. The trick would be to keep him from stepping more on sorcerers' metamagical toes than is absolutely necessary, and keeping him relevant in the focus of the game: small scale battles. A theme of remote-casting might work. Not "500 miles away in a bunker" remote, but "from across the battlefield" remote.
    This is something I agree with, but in a different direction. The Evoker very much is that artillerist you're thinking of- the War Wizard is meant to be a hybrid Evoker/Abjurer, which naturally leads it into more of a duelist type. It's a bit of a misnomer- the "War" aspect comes in by establishing War Wizards as a counter to one another, similar to military air support. Any wizard can shape a battlefield; a War Wizard exists to safely target enemy spellcasters and keep them from doing exactly that.

    In other words, I'd like to see them be a more specialized, flavorful duelist through additional ribbons or more unique abilities. That's probably not accomplished through numerically higher damage, but I'm open to other ideas.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Am I wrong in thinking that the War Wizard was an attempt to provide a more "generic" wizard tradition? If you don't feel really drawn to a "school", it's a path forward.

    Was WW a replacement for the UA Lore Mastery tradition? Was that determined to be OP? I kind of liked it when it came out. One of the features was very similar to the Elemental Spell UA metamagic feature, being able to swap the damage type of a given spell with another type. I think that alone would make a LL wizard worth playing.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I got the feeling it was supposed to be Cormyrean War Wizard with the numbers filed off.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking that the War Wizard was an attempt to provide a more "generic" wizard tradition? If you don't feel really drawn to a "school", it's a path forward.

    Was WW a replacement for the UA Lore Mastery tradition? Was that determined to be OP? I kind of liked it when it came out. One of the features was very similar to the Elemental Spell UA metamagic feature, being able to swap the damage type of a given spell with another type. I think that alone would make a LL wizard worth playing.
    iirc it let you swap the type of save you targeted (which is OP) but I'm pretty sure the War Wizard was its own UA (dropping Lore might account for Wizard only getting one new subclass in Xanatghar's, though I wish it was an unrestrictyed Bladesinger).
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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I got the feeling it was supposed to be Cormyrean War Wizard with the numbers filed off.
    It probably is. Though I don't know enough about the source material to comment.

    What could those do in prior editions? Did they have any signature techniques or abilities? Particularly any that have roots in pre-3e?

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Not a lot. I couldn't find anything for 1e. For 2e, from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms, the Wizards of Cormyr Kit has the following for War Wizards:
    Advantages:
    War wizards train extensively in the use of combat magic. For that reason any damage-inflicting spell they cast, such as magic missile or fireball, inflicts an additional point of damage per die.

    Disadvantages
    Because of their focus on combat spells, war wizards suf- fer from a slight disadvantage when employing all other spells. Whenever a character of this type invokes a spell that does not directly cause damage to an enemy (such as a detect magic or web), his effective level is halved (round up).

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Not a lot. I couldn't find anything for 1e. For 2e, from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms, the Wizards of Cormyr Kit has the following for War Wizards:
    Advantages:
    War wizards train extensively in the use of combat magic. For that reason any damage-inflicting spell they cast, such as magic missile or fireball, inflicts an additional point of damage per die.

    Disadvantages
    Because of their focus on combat spells, war wizards suf- fer from a slight disadvantage when employing all other spells. Whenever a character of this type invokes a spell that does not directly cause damage to an enemy (such as a detect magic or web), his effective level is halved (round up).
    So a rather weak kit, though its bonus damage would have been highly valued in 2e. Hrm.

    I think the level 6 feature in War Wizard points to this Advantage, here, certainly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    So a rather weak kit, though its bonus damage would have been highly valued in 2e. Hrm.
    +1/level damage wouldn't be too shabby in 5e either. Assuming we took a direct post of the most common scaling in 2e (typically 1d6/level).

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    If war mage is anti-spellcaster (while avoiding abjuration's counterspell/dispell niche), what about doing bonus damage to spellcasters and later making concentration checks harder or casting as a reaction when hostiles cast?

    I'm just thinking about the Mage slayer feat, and how I wished it worked, and trying to fit some of that onto a wizard school.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I still think you need to decide what War Mage is FOR before trying to fix it. Anti-mage-except-not-countering-or-dispelling is really narrow. "Extra damage" is too generic and probably steps on the Evoker's conceptual space.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Yes War Magic is a bit crappy, mainly due to Power Surge. I always thought a feature that hinges on 2 specific spells to work should be given those 2 spells for free, otherwise its a spells known tax, because its not like enemy spellcasters are very common.

    Also, the whole 'I fireball 5 guys, but that particular guy over there takes more damage' doesn't cut it for me.

    Durable Magic is decent, and Deflecting Shroud is free damage, but they are nothing to write home about. Both are kind of uninspiring.

    IMO they should be getting something to help with maintaining concentration on spells, which is what War Caster feat does. Sure, any spellcaster can take the feat, but you are THE war caster. You are a specialist.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrykhor View Post
    Yes War Magic is a bit crappy, mainly due to Power Surge. I always thought a feature that hinges on 2 specific spells to work should be given those 2 spells for free, otherwise its a spells known tax, because its not like enemy spellcasters are very common.

    Also, the whole 'I fireball 5 guys, but that particular guy over there takes more damage' doesn't cut it for me.

    Durable Magic is decent, and Deflecting Shroud is free damage, but they are nothing to write home about. Both are kind of uninspiring.

    IMO they should be getting something to help with maintaining concentration on spells, which is what War Caster feat does. Sure, any spellcaster can take the feat, but you are THE war caster. You are a specialist.
    Well, they do get up to +6 on saving throws (at the cost of a reaction for +4 of that). That helps with concentration, as well as with not getting paralyzed/disintegrated/etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Well, they do get up to +6 on saving throws (at the cost of a reaction for +4 of that). That helps with concentration, as well as with not getting paralyzed/disintegrated/etc.
    A single saving throw, which costs both their Reaction (which even prevents them counterspelling to gain charges) and their ability to cast non-cantrip spells next round. "+4 on saves" isn't an accurate representation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    A single saving throw, which costs both their Reaction (which even prevents them counterspelling to gain charges) and their ability to cast non-cantrip spells next round. "+4 on saves [at the cost of a reaction]" isn't an accurate representation.
    I thought I said that already but yeah. (It's not just a single save BTW, it's a single failed save--unlike Bardic Inspiration or Lucky or Portent or Flash of Geno7s, it never gets wasted on an already-successful save.) I agree, there's a cost, but when failing a save is worse you pay that cost willingly rather than get paralyzed/lose a big spell.

    War wizards are good at keeping up a big concentration spell, but not always so good at shooting off non-concentration spells at the same time.

    "Gaining charges," meh, who cares about charges anyway.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-05-07 at 10:26 PM.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I think the power surge mechanic is interesting, if poorly implemented. Storing "magical energy within yourself to later empower your spells" and stealing "magic from the spell you foiled" have potential for a compelling subclass focus. I'd like to see what you can spend surges on being fleshed out a bit beyond just poorly scaling bonus damage.

    I don't think Dispel/Counter qualifies as a spell choice tax since it is the rare Wizard that isn't going to take at least one of them by dint of how effective they are. It is a reasonable analog to the school bonuses that other subclasses get, just Battle magic instead of Abjuration, Divination, etc.

    I vote for fleshing out how you generate surges and how you can spend them.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I played one the other week in a one shot. Level 13 or so I think. It was fun. I made some saves that made a difference and we had a good game.

    I tended to toss out a concentration spell in round one. So if I was able to keep concentration then being limited to cantrips was easier to accept. I think that’s what they were going for with it.

    But it basically played like any other wizard. The right spell at the right time did a lot to sway things our way.
    Last edited by Toadkiller; 2020-05-08 at 12:51 AM.

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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I guess one thing to keep in mind about Power Surge is that it helps your damage out a but when you use Arcane Deflection and get bumped down to cantrips for a turn, flat damage is reliable and that has it's own value.
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    Default Re: War Wizard fix

    I don't think it's half bad, or in need of a fix. +5 initiative by itself, and +4 saves almost at will, is powerfull enough. Maybe a bit boring, but meh - plenty of opportunity to be creative through spells, if you're a wizard.

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    My 2 cents

    I think the war wizard should focus on 3 distinct spells; mage armor, shield, and magic missile.
    Casting these spells have enhanced effects.

    I’m working on something right now that I’ll post later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I thought I said that already but yeah. (It's not just a single save BTW, it's a single failed save--unlike Bardic Inspiration or Lucky or Portent or Flash of Geno7s, it never gets wasted on an already-successful save.) I agree, there's a cost, but when failing a save is worse you pay that cost willingly rather than get paralyzed/lose a big spell.

    War wizards are good at keeping up a big concentration spell, but not always so good at shooting off non-concentration spells at the same time.
    You did include that, I apologise. But it's still a massive, massive caveat to the bonus that doesn't seem to be included in a lot of people's calculus for some reason.

    And I'm not saying it's a bad ability, just that it's more limited than "to saves".

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    I don't think it's half bad, or in need of a fix. +5 initiative by itself, and +4 saves almost at will, is powerfull enough. Maybe a bit boring, but meh - plenty of opportunity to be creative through spells, if you're a wizard.
    Yeah, again, it's not really "+4 to saves" though is it? It's one saving throw, at a maximum of once per turn, and carries a significant cost. It's "at will" in as much as there isn't a per-day limit, but that's actually a minor element of its utility considering how often you're likely to be using it in reality.

    I agree with others in this thread, I think, when I say that I don't think the War Mage is broken or bad - just senseless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    My 2 cents

    I think the war wizard should focus on 3 distinct spells; mage armor, shield, and magic missile.
    Casting these spells have enhanced effects.

    I’m working on something right now that I’ll post later.
    That's a cool theme but what's it got to do with war?
    Last edited by Mr Adventurer; 2020-05-08 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    That's a cool theme but what's it got to do with war?
    Mage armor and shield spell to me are the counterparts to an armored Warrior with a shield.
    For magic missile, sometimes a fireball just doesn’t work in a battlefield situation. So being able to single out individual targets could be very beneficial especially when you don’t have to roll to hit.

    Edit:
    You can also think that a War Wizard would be the “archer” core of an army.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2020-05-08 at 01:05 PM.

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