Shillelagh Damage Dice for Two-handed

[Spectrulus]

The RAW is absent on this as far as I can tell, normally a quarterstaff deals 1d6 versatile 1d8.

When you cast Shillelagh it states "... and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8."

If you wanted to wield it with two hands, would/should it jump up to a d10, like other weapons do?

[Belier]

The RAW is absent on this as far as I can tell, normally a quarterstaff deals 1d6 versatile 1d8.

When you cast Shillelagh it states "... and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8."

If you wanted to wield it with two hands, would/should it jump up to a d10, like other weapons do?

Nope, but you can ask your dm or allow it, doesnt sound game breaking.

The thing is that you cannot apply more wisdom by striking with both hands. You could only add more strength.

[Unoriginal]

The RAW is absent on this as far as I can tell, normally a quarterstaff deals 1d6 versatile 1d8.

When you cast Shillelagh it states "... and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8."

If you wanted to wield it with two hands, would/should it jump up to a d10, like other weapons do?

The damage die becomes 1d8. That's it. Two-handing doesn't change that.

There is no secret ways to increase the damage. The RAW doesn't mention one because it doesn't exist.

Shillelagh's main power is to use your casting stat for your attack/damage. The 1d8 is mostly to make it worthwhile with a club.

There's good reasons to not have a cantrip do 1d10+casting stat damages, but your DM could authorize it anyway.

[Trask]

It might be cool if Shillelagh increased the damage die one step, then there would be a reason to use a greatclub.

EDIT: Never mind, I forgot that quarterstaves exist.

[GlenSmash!]

Damage for Shillelagh has nothing to do with the weapon being used as it transforms into a Shillelagh. It's the power of nature doing the damage.

As such holding it in two hands offers no benefits.

[Segev]

Is it just me, or is Shillelagh just not a very impressive Cantrip compared to anything with a ranged attack that does a d8? Unlike other damage cantrips, it doesn't let you attack in the round you cast it, and it doesn't get stronger as you level up. Its longer duration isn't the boon it would be in prior editions, since you can spam Cantrips. You don't need to cast it and thus get multiple rounds from a single spell slot.

[Sigreid]

Is it just me, or is Shillelagh just not a very impressive Cantrip compared to anything with a ranged attack that does a d8? Unlike other damage cantrips, it doesn't let you attack in the round you cast it, and it doesn't get stronger as you level up. Its longer duration isn't the boon it would be in prior editions, since you can spam Cantrips. You don't need to cast it and thus get multiple rounds from a single spell slot.

Personally, I think its best use is a fighter or barbarian with magic initiate using it to be able to have an effective weapon that would affect creatures protected from non magic weapons in an emergency.

[Finney]

Is it just me, or is Shillelagh just not a very impressive Cantrip compared to anything with a ranged attack that does a d8? Unlike other damage cantrips, it doesn't let you attack in the round you cast it, and it doesn't get stronger as you level up. Its longer duration isn't the boon it would be in prior editions, since you can spam Cantrips. You don't need to cast it and thus get multiple rounds from a single spell slot.

I don't have a PHB in front of me, but I am fairly certain that the Shillelagh cantrip is a bonus action so you could attack the same round you cast it.

[CantigThimble]

Is it just me, or is Shillelagh just not a very impressive Cantrip compared to anything with a ranged attack that does a d8? Unlike other damage cantrips, it doesn't let you attack in the round you cast it, and it doesn't get stronger as you level up. Its longer duration isn't the boon it would be in prior editions, since you can spam Cantrips. You don't need to cast it and thus get multiple rounds from a single spell slot.

You can attack with it on the turn you cast it, its a bonus action.

Shillelagh is weird in that it is better on every other class than on the class that gets it by default. Druids have no real way to take advantage of it. Some clerics have divine strike. Warlocks have thirsting blade and green flame blade. (though hexblade makes the tome-shillelagh thing kinda outdated) Monks that want to pump wisdom first can use shillelagh to boost their main hand attacks.

[jollydm]

I don't have a PHB in front of me, but I am fairly certain that the Shillelagh cantrip is a bonus action so you could attack the same round you cast it.

You are correct.

[Armored Walrus]

Compared to the damage cantrips of other classes, Shillelagh isn't that impressive. But compared to the Druid's other at-will damage options while in caster form, it's a pretty key cantrip. Druids aren't made to be tossing damage cantrips around; their strengths lie elsewhere. As such, I don't see any reason to improve its damage output in any way. It's just something they can do in a pinch if they happen to get a mook on them that isn't worth burning a spell slot to get rid of.

[Segev]

Compared to the damage cantrips of other classes, Shillelagh isn't that impressive. But compared to the Druid's other at-will damage options while in caster form, it's a pretty key cantrip. Druids aren't made to be tossing damage cantrips around; their strengths lie elsewhere. As such, I don't see any reason to improve its damage output in any way. It's just something they can do in a pinch if they happen to get a mook on them that isn't worth burning a spell slot to get rid of.

I'd kind-of like to see the eponymous weapon spontaneously conjure in their hands, then, rather than requiring them to have one on hand, if this is meant to be the anti-mook "crud, how'd you get this close to me in this form?" Cantrip.

[Armored Walrus]

Both druids in my campaign use a staff as their druidic focus, so it's already on hand.

[Willie the Duck]

Is it just me, or is Shillelagh just not a very impressive Cantrip compared to anything with a ranged attack that does a d8? Unlike other damage cantrips, it doesn't let you attack in the round you cast it, and it doesn't get stronger as you level up. Its longer duration isn't the boon it would be in prior editions, since you can spam Cantrips. You don't need to cast it and thus get multiple rounds from a single spell slot.

Completely different focus. Ranged cantrips (invocation pumped EB notwithstanding) are about getting a level scaling not-quite-fighter-with-bow-but-good-enough ranged attack that scales with level. Shillelagh (combos such as Cantig mentions notwithstanding) is about a 1st level druid or nature cleric with poor physical stats having a decent melee attack. Think of your average druid (for the sake of the argument a rolled-stat optimized one) -- they, at most, will likely want a 14 Dex to work with their hide armor, and have little reason to have a high strength. Thus they could attack with a dagger at +4 for 1d4+2. Or (if they have a 20 Wisdom, yes farfetched, but work with me here) they can use shillelagh and attack at +7 for 1d8+5. Now take the same example, but instead it is a hill dwarf nature cleric with an 8 strength and dex and a 18-19 Wisdom... the use is pretty clear. It has its drawbacks (if it didn't, it'd be overpowered for a cantrip)--it uses a bonus action to activate (what else were you going to use it for round 1 of combat, mr. level 1 druid?)--it doesn't scale as you level (at which point you are usually laying down spells), but it got you off the ground floor awfully well.

Shillelagh is weird in that it is better on every other class than on the class that gets it by default. Druids have no real way to take advantage of it. Some clerics have divine strike. Warlocks have thirsting blade and green flame blade. (though hexblade makes the tome-shillelagh thing kinda outdated) Monks that want to pump wisdom first can use shillelagh to boost their main hand attacks.

That bothers me (a bit). Although they did set it up where it was relatively impossible to get multi-attack and shillelagh (using a stat you would want to boost) without a 5-level dip into a martial class (yes, yes, rangers and monks, but why aren't they boosting one martial stat or the other?)... it still smells of a deliberate optimization widget. SCAG cantrips (particularly attached to arcana clerics) made it even more 'abusable, but not quite.' Even though we've hashed through- and to-death- the vuman Arcana clerics with MI (shillelagh+thorn whip) and SCAG cantrips, plus war caster, PAM, etc. and determined that it was (as it should be) a niche build approximately as powerful as you would expect that much investment and only really overpowered if you rolled 2-3 great stats (which makes anything powerful)...the whole thing still just feels like maybe a bunny trail for optimization hounds to get lost on.

I'd kind-of like to see the eponymous weapon spontaneously conjure in their hands, then, rather than requiring them to have one on hand, if this is meant to be the anti-mook "crud, how'd you get this close to me in this form?" Cantrip.

Well, they already have such a spell, it's called Primal Savagery. No need to have two druid cantrips with the same benefits.

[Segev]

Completely different focus. Ranged cantrips (invocation pumped EB notwithstanding) are about getting a level scaling not-quite-fighter-with-bow-but-good-enough ranged attack that scales with level. Shillelagh (combos such as Cantig mentions notwithstanding) is about a 1st level druid or nature cleric with poor physical stats having a decent melee attack. Think of your average druid (for the sake of the argument a rolled-stat optimized one) -- they, at most, will likely want a 14 Dex to work with their hide armor, and have little reason to have a high strength. Thus they could attack with a dagger at +4 for 1d4+2. Or (if they have a 20 Wisdom, yes farfetched, but work with me here) they can use shillelagh and attack at +7 for 1d8+5. Now take the same example, but instead it is a hill dwarf nature cleric with an 8 strength and dex and a 18-19 Wisdom... the use is pretty clear. It has its drawbacks (if it didn't, it'd be overpowered for a cantrip)--it uses a bonus action to activate (what else were you going to use it for round 1 of combat, mr. level 1 druid?)--it doesn't scale as you level (at which point you are usually laying down spells), but it got you off the ground floor awfully well.

And here's the big problem: this is for the first level druid.

Cantrips, unlike other spells, don't have the "you can swap these out at higher level!" clause (unless Druids are an exception and I've missed that in their rules, somewhere). If you want a 1st-level-Druid spell that has a duration and makes the 1st-level-Druid more competitive with his melee weapon, make it a non-upcastable 1st level spell with a longer duration (maybe even 8 hours). Now it's good at what it does at level 1-2, and is easily swapped out when it's not useful anymore. But consider the 11th level Druid. He's going to regret having shillelagh over other Cantrips that actually are useful at his level, and he can't trade it out.

Well, they already have such a spell, it's called Primal Savagery. No need to have two druid cantrips with the same benefits.

Ah, okay. What book's that from? I only own core, so have to check others when I visit friends or get them to look things up for me.

[Aaedimus]

Primal Savagery is from Xanthar's. There are always tradeoffs btw. You take primal savagery, it scales but without a feat you can't use it for opportunity spells (I kicked myself for that a few weeks ago) Shillelagh is useable with opportunity attacks.

And it's good that Shillelagh doesn't scale btw, because it's compatible with other bonus action cantrips.

If you pull in booming blade or green flame blade through multiclass or magic initiate right now, per level you're doing similar damage on hit as other cantrips with possible scaling bonus damage on top of that.

If Shillelagh scaled, than at level 5 you'd be hitting with potentially 4d8 on a single hit from a cantrip, and 8d8 at higher levels with classes like sorcerer or eldritch night that can cast them multiple times a turn, not to mention multiattack. That's not balanced.

[Willie the Duck]

But consider the 11th level Druid. He's going to regret having shillelagh over other Cantrips that actually are useful at his level, and he can't trade it out.

Yes, that. is. the. point. It is a permanent sacrifice (of whatever value one cantrip slot is to a high level druid) in exchange for having the ability to forget strength (and to a lesser degree dexterity) and still-somehow-survive to reach being an 11th level druid. If it gets you there, then there is no problem. The only real issue is that you will be slightly different/behind the druid that gets created at level 11, and doesn't have any of those legacy decisions hanging around (but that is hardly a unique instance of that issue). IMO, if Shillelagh were a leveled spell (and thus could simply be never-again-memorized once it was unneeded), it might perhaps be too powerful (although that would make it harder for other classes to grab and make pseudo-abusive builds out of, which to me is a plus).

Ah, okay. What book's that from? I only own core, so have to check others when I visit friends or get them to look things up for me.

XGtE. It is a bog standard scaling cantrip (flame bolt except acid damage, advantage/disadvantage is that it is melee as opposed to range).

[Segev]

Yes, that. is. the. point. It is a permanent sacrifice (of whatever value one cantrip slot is to a high level druid) in exchange for having the ability to forget strength (and to a lesser degree dexterity) and still-somehow-survive to reach being an 11th level druid. If it gets you there, then there is no problem. The only real issue is that you will be slightly different/behind the druid that gets created at level 11, and doesn't have any of those legacy decisions hanging around (but that is hardly a unique instance of that issue). IMO, if Shillelagh were a leveled spell (and thus could simply be never-again-memorized once it was unneeded), it might perhaps be too powerful (although that would make it harder for other classes to grab and make pseudo-abusive builds out of, which to me is a plus).

Permanent sacrifice of resources to low-level advantage is contrary to the design paradigm of 5e. Otherwise, we wouldn't have known spell replacement, invocation replacement, etc. We wouldn't HAVE scaling cantrips; you'd have to invest further in them or get "better" ones at higher level.

So yes, it IS a problem. Especially considering that the druid is proficient with quarterstaves, and not with anything that requires an open hand, and can use a staff as a druidic focus (IIRC), so can always get the 1d10 "versatile" tag. A Cantrip for +2-4ish in damage on your melee attack is not really all that impressive, even at first level. It falls into "might be worth it, at that level, sometimes" territory, and swiftly falls into "ugh, I wish I could trade this away" territory as one gains levels.

[Crusher]

Permanent sacrifice of resources to low-level advantage is contrary to the design paradigm of 5e. Otherwise, we wouldn't have known spell replacement, invocation replacement, etc. We wouldn't HAVE scaling cantrips; you'd have to invest further in them or get "better" ones at higher level.

So yes, it IS a problem. Especially considering that the druid is proficient with quarterstaves, and not with anything that requires an open hand, and can use a staff as a druidic focus (IIRC), so can always get the 1d10 "versatile" tag. A Cantrip for +2-4ish in damage on your melee attack is not really all that impressive, even at first level. It falls into "might be worth it, at that level, sometimes" territory, and swiftly falls into "ugh, I wish I could trade this away" territory as one gains levels.

You also get the plus to hit at low levels, which is probably bigger than the extra damage.

And, sure, its a cost, but really, how many times has an 11th level character *really* been inconvenienced because their 4th cantrip was sub-optimal?

[Segev]

You also get the plus to hit at low levels, which is probably bigger than the extra damage.

And, sure, its a cost, but really, how many times has an 11th level character *really* been inconvenienced because their 4th cantrip was sub-optimal?

I imagine every time they've thought, "Man, I wish I had" some Cantrip they could have but don't have the slots for.

[Willie the Duck]

Permanent sacrifice of resources to low-level advantage is contrary to the design paradigm of 5e. Otherwise, we wouldn't have known spell replacement, invocation replacement, etc. We wouldn't HAVE scaling cantrips; you'd have to invest further in them or get "better" ones at higher level.

Replacement is indeed a thing, but not a universal one. Otherwise there would be cantrip replacement rules. I certainly don't see how the existence of scaling cantrips supports this point. Firebolt may scale, but as you gain levels in wizard, for example, the number of rounds you need to use it still drops.

Regardless, shillelagh is just replacing one permanent investment for another. If, as an example, you chose not to pick up shillelagh as your druid (/nature cleric) cantrip and instead chose to suck it up with plain old daggers or maces or quarterstaves. You might feel the need to put points into Dex or Str. That too, is a permanent investment. Shillelagh negates the need for that (so much so that ex. your hill dwarf nature cleric might completely ignore strength and dex, and instead focus on Con, Wis, and either Int or Cha as their character concept dictates). That attribute distribution is equally permanent, and facilitated by this cantrip.

I'm sorry, but I am not seeing this game-design paradigm that you feel shillelagh violates.

So yes, it IS a problem. Especially considering that the druid is proficient with quarterstaves, and not with anything that requires an open hand, and can use a staff as a druidic focus (IIRC), so can always get the 1d10 "versatile" tag. A Cantrip for +2-4ish in damage on your melee attack is not really all that impressive, even at first level. It falls into "might be worth it, at that level, sometimes" territory, and swiftly falls into "ugh, I wish I could trade this away" territory as one gains levels.

I'll assume you meant 1d8 versatile that quarterstaves have. I don't know what to say-- if you think that fighting with a 1d8(if two-handed, meaning no shield and thus precious +2 AC)+ potentially-low (and if not, that is equally a permanent investment) strength bonus weapon, whose to-hit is equally strength dependent quarterstaff is of trivial difference from fighting with a 1d8 (even with a shield, yes some handedness challenges being part of that) + wisdom (one's spellcasting stat) damage attack with proficiency + wisdom bonus as to-hit... well it is a good thing that the spell is optional and not mandatory, and that we can each make a selection with our characters based on what we consider to be a good selection.

[Segev]

My point is simply that it strikes me as weaker than spamming just about any other damage Cantrip round after round, and doesn't seem sufficiently stronger than just two-handing a quarterstaff to be worth the Cantrip slot. Again, especially compared to another damage cantrip (say, produce flame). I agree, at levels 1-4, it might be the better choice. 1d8+5 (if you managed a 20 Wis) is 9.5 average, and 13 maximum damage. But it stays 9.5 average with 13 max even as produce flame becomes average 9 with 16 maximum. At 11th level, 13.5 with 24 maximum.

Produce flame remains relevant and useful. Shillelagh doesn't. The latter is the only one that becomes a "dead" Cantrip choice.

Maybe it's good for a paladin/druid, letting him single-stat Cha? ...no, the druid calls for Wis. And I don't think 5e PAladins have the Wis-dependency anymore. I was thinking about using the smite powers/melee-enhancing Cantrips in conjunction with the d8+casting stat weapon. But it's still just a choice between MAD on Str/Cha or Wis/Cha. And the former doesn't take multiclassing or Magic Initiate.

[Belier]

Listen, shillelagh is not a cantrip that scale, I know, it could've been nice it would ve scaled like monk attacks. 1d6-1d8-1d10-1d12, and it is weird that almost every other class use it better than the druid, but it's power lies in the fact that it improves a 1 handed weapon, making you doing decent melee damage while using a shield.

I do want to point out that no other light weapon can reach the 1d8 die for 2 weapon fighting featless. It would've been nice to be able to dual wield clubs by boosting it with shillelagh and it would not even be OP considering that 2 weapon fighting is considered one of the weakest style, but it is not how it is built.

However, as I druid, I'd rather use a SCAG melee cantrip than shillelagh, this is how sad shillelagh is.

[Willie the Duck]

My point is simply that it strikes me as weaker than spamming just about any other damage Cantrip round after round, and doesn't seem sufficiently stronger than just two-handing a quarterstaff to be worth the Cantrip slot. Again, especially compared to another damage cantrip (say, produce flame). I agree, at levels 1-4, it might be the better choice. 1d8+5 (if you managed a 20 Wis) is 9.5 average, and 13 maximum damage. But it stays 9.5 average with 13 max even as produce flame becomes average 9 with 16 maximum. At 11th level, 13.5 with 24 maximum.

Produce flame remains relevant and useful. Shillelagh doesn't. The latter is the only one that becomes a "dead" Cantrip choice.

Well, we aren't substantively disagreeing on facts. I think, once you consider that you can get +wis to-hit as well as to damage AND can dump strength (a decision which has long term benefits, provided you put those stats to good use elsewhere), that the decision on whether a cantrip slot is an acceptable sacrifice or not is an open question (depending on what you want to do with your druid).

Maybe it's good for a paladin/druid, letting him single-stat Cha? ...no, the druid calls for Wis. And I don't think 5e PAladins have the Wis-dependency anymore. I was thinking about using the smite powers/melee-enhancing Cantrips in conjunction with the d8+casting stat weapon. But it's still just a choice between MAD on Str/Cha or Wis/Cha. And the former doesn't take multiclassing or Magic Initiate.

In a variant campaign where the DM allowed Wisdom-paladins, it'd be interesting (or one where the DM dropped the Str 13 req for paladin MC, in which case yes it would be Wis/Cha MAD, but the RP potential for actually being able to have a character with two good social/mental stats is pretty neat). Rangers make decent use out of shillelagh. But overall, it is nature clerics, tomelocks, arcana clerics, and the like.

Listen, shillelagh is not a cantrip that scale, I know, it could've been nice it would ve scaled like monk attacks. 1d6-1d8-1d10-1d12, and it is weird that almost every other class use it better than the druid, but it's power lies in the fact that it improves a 1 handed weapon, making you doing decent melee damage while using a shield.

Also the changing the to-hit attribute. As to everyone but druid can use it better-it is frustrating, I will say that. It really makes me wonder about the whole spell-sharing paradigm they set up (with M.I., spell sniper, tomelock, and bards) and how much of what came out of it was intended and what was not. There are a few spells (shillelagh, find familiar, and eldritch blast, although the last one is hard to abuse since it only really powers up with invocations) that I really think should have been class features, rather than spells.

If shillelagh were a druid-specific ability (and maybe we'll say nature clerics also got it, but again as a class feature where the exact parameters and interactions were spelled out), they could have designed it and spelled out how it scaled, such that it by itself would be competitive (because, you and Segev are right, a druid just can't keep up in melee at higher levels, even nature clerics wipe the floor with them), and also not have to worry about it's scaling damage interacting with something else (like Divine Strike or SCAG cantrips, etc.).

[Maxilian]

Maybe it's good for a paladin/druid, letting him single-stat Cha? ...no, the druid calls for Wis. And I don't think 5e PAladins have the Wis-dependency anymore. I was thinking about using the smite powers/melee-enhancing Cantrips in conjunction with the d8+casting stat weapon. But it's still just a choice between MAD on Str/Cha or Wis/Cha. And the former doesn't take multiclassing or Magic Initiate.

Well it would be good for a Fighter/Druid, or Fighter with MI, or Warlock or Bard that pick it up with one of its class abilities. (It have it uses, sadly, outside of Druid, or Druid + something else)

[bid]

But it stays 9.5 average with 13 max even as produce flame becomes average 9 with 16 maximum.

I'll take the minimum 6 damage over the minimum 2 damage, thank you.

[Segev]

I'll take the minimum 6 damage over the minimum 2 damage, thank you.

And you’re free to; you are still also ahead on average. Produce flame only becomes unequivocally better at 11th level; it has just more or less caught up by fifth. Though it is a ranged attack, which is another advantage over shillelagh.

[bid]

And you’re free to; you are still also a hard on average. Produce flame only becomes unequivocally better at 11th level; it has just more or less caught up by fifth. Though it is a ranged attack, which is another advantage over shillelagh.

By your reverse logic, produce flame only does a minimum of 3 damage at level 11 though.

Sorry, I was channelling Ken M here.

[Willie the Duck]

Though it is a ranged attack, which is another advantage over shillelagh.

Ranged isn't really an advantage over an unranged attack. You generally want an option for each. I guess the style you don't already have is the one with the advantage, or a spell which can do either without penalty (such as the save-for-half area cantrips).

[Segev]

By your reverse logic, produce flame only does a minimum of 3 damage at level 11 though.

Sorry, I was channelling Ken M here.

Note that, while I was touting the maximum, the main point was the average. By 5th level, you're close enough with produce flame that the fact that it's ranged and keeps getting stronger is more than enough to overcome the tiny half-an-hp-per-round gap.

Heh, I just realized: in the "it's better for non-Druids" category, it kind-of does scale with level if you're running a class that gets extra attacks. Which is, I realize as I write this, probably why it doesn't scale, but that's bad design even if it's good balance, since it's a flipping Druid cantrip. Maybe what it needs is a clause like, "At 5th level, you can use a bonus action to make an attack with your shillelagh. At 11th level, you can cast this spell and wield the resulting weapon even in Wild Shape forms that normally could not." Now, you've got a magic club in anything from raven to mammoth form that you can make a bonus action attack with.

Ranged isn't really an advantage over an unranged attack. You generally want an option for each. I guess the style you don't already have is the one with the advantage, or a spell which can do either without penalty (such as the save-for-half area cantrips).

In practice, ranged is superior. You are rarely in a situation where you can't get some distance, and frequently are in a situation where closing to melee is a complication.

Add in that a druid who is stuck for melee can wild shape, and...