An Imperishable City - Four thousand years without rot; what survives?

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. Well, I managed a large chunk of the day actually putting words on my page quest-writing, but I have, once again, hit something of a point where I have to do Ask Questions And Do Research, and time as always pressed hard, so I come again to the Playground to beseech help!



So, the PCs are exploring an ancient ruined city. The city builders are best illustraively sumamrised as "ancient Eygpt via Rome with magic¹." The city has lain undisturbed by other creatures for about four-thousand years (technology period approx transitionary period between bronze and iron age), since a final battle was fought in it, during which the attackers made a concerted effort to raze it, though they never completed doing so. This is becase of the curse that was triggered in the closing stages. The curse lies on the surrounding area that kills any living creature that enters the region in short order, crumbling them to sand. It does not affect dead organic matter (or Undead organic matter, fortunately for the PCs!), but does affect everything down to fungus and micro-organisms. The effect is still very much active, and so anything outside entering in will crumble just as fast as the unfortunate attackers.

Therefore, while potentially stuff in the city might be exposed to four thousand years of wind, rain (the area looks like a desert, but is actually as humid as the surrounding tropical mountains) and exposure, none of the dead organic matter can actually rot or go mouldy. (So this is a slightly different case to that one thread I made a few years ago that I can't find about what survives centuries in a waterless desert environment..!)

So the question becomes, what sort of state is stuff likely to be in? What state of preservation might it be in? I have assumed that the city (stone-built, this was the God-King's personal posh playground-city) is mostly down to low wall outlines and sand (as the wind and water erosion has had no barrier). (If you think that might be too much and the state of preservation would be better, I'd all ears.) But what might one find in the nooks and crannies or under the sand?

Might the PCs find bread, for example in some relatively dry spot (perhaps in its oven)? Meat? Cloth? The iron and bronze weapons are more likely to have degraded from water-damage and exposure (save for any magic ones!) (No coins, it's too early - in fact, too early even for ring coins, accroidng to the stuff I had to look up, so we're on "bits of native silver."



Corpses. There might be some debate as to whether the corpses of those killed during the final battle would probably count qualify as dead organic matter, yes? Rolemaster (for which is the system in question) has a "soul departure" count (starting from when the body was killed), after which point it is assumed that the soul leaves the body. This is fairly short and may be less time than it takes to body, to, for eample, cool. What do we reckon would be a good boundary condition? (My initial thought was no corpses, but that would likely have to be wrong, so the equestion becomes "how many corpses?")



Suggestions, corrections and thoughts and observations would be welcome as always.

(If you are wondering "dude, does does it matter?" - as this particular party's quests are explictly about exploration, yes, it VERY much matters!)



(And for anyone keeping track, yes, this is stuff in the ringworld segment of the thing I was talking about in that thread in the Mad Science and Grumpy Technology forum...!)



¹Astute readers might also gather a bit of influence on this adventure comes from my recent playing of Total War Warhammer 2...

[Kami2awa]

In low humidity, practically everything organic (eg the meat and bread you mention) would dry out. Bread would become pretty inedible, but meat might be OK, just turned into very chewy jerky. Dead bodies would mummify naturally.

In high humidity, things don't dry out. Food is effectively being kept in a frozen state (literally frozen, not metaphorically) while at room temperature. It might last forever, but I'd imagine it would taste weird as a lot of organic molecules might slowly decay into something else over time. Dead bodies, if they survive the curse, would seem like waxworks, and would be very creepy indeed.

Because no bacteria or mould can grow in it, honey has allegedly been found in an edible state in ancient tombs, and remained edible.

Over time, anything unprotected might be showing erosion from wind and rain. Drains and sewers (if there are any) would eventually get blocked by earth, plant matter (does plant matter count as dead or living to the curse?), or similar as it gets washed down, so flooding will happen and undermine foundations, leading to the collapse of buildings. Stone buildings can last a heck of a long time though - in our world, many of the ruins of the ancient world are only ruined because later generations mined them for stone to build other things.

Biodegradation isn't the only way things break down; there is also photodegradation, especially of dyes. Anything that was dyed or painted in the past might have been bleached white by sunlight.

[VoxRationis]

Stone ruins in humid climates still last a while, based on my understanding of places like Chichen Itza and Angkor Wat. Since you don't have to worry about wooden rafters rotting or tree roots breaking up the stone, I'd imagine 4,000 years would still leave the basic structure of most stone buildings intact. I'm not sure about reliefs and ornamentation, though.

[ross]

I assume trees in the area are subject to the curse. If I walk in carrying an apple (assume for the moment that I can make it in without disintegrating), does the apple disintegrate? Why or why not? That is, is a thing that was part of a living thing considered alive?

Similarly, if I cut off my arm and immediately throw it across the curse border, does the arm disintegrate? What if I cut it off and then let it sit for a few weeks so it starts to rot, then throw it across? Maybe only the non-necrotic tissue disintegrates?

What does the curse do to a virus?

[Aotrs Commander]

Aplogies for the lack of replies, it's simply that between the enervating heat and being very bust this week, I just have not gotten around to it.

In high humidity, things don't dry out. Food is effectively being kept in a frozen state (literally frozen, not metaphorically) while at room temperature. It might last forever, but I'd imagine it would taste weird as a lot of organic molecules might slowly decay into something else over time. Dead bodies, if they survive the curse, would seem like waxworks, and would be very creepy indeed.

Interesting...

Because no bacteria or mould can grow in it, honey has allegedly been found in an edible state in ancient tombs, and remained edible.

Over time, anything unprotected might be showing erosion from wind and rain. Drains and sewers (if there are any) would eventually get blocked by earth, plant matter (does plant matter count as dead or living to the curse?), or similar as it gets washed down, so flooding will happen and undermine foundations, leading to the collapse of buildings. Stone buildings can last a heck of a long time though - in our world, many of the ruins of the ancient world are only ruined because later generations mined them for stone to build other things.

Stone ruins in humid climates still last a while, based on my understanding of places like Chichen Itza and Angkor Wat. Since you don't have to worry about wooden rafters rotting or tree roots breaking up the stone, I'd imagine 4,000 years would still leave the basic structure of most stone buildings intact. I'm not sure about reliefs and ornamentation, though.

Hmm. Maybe I should have more of the buildings intact than I currently nominal have - 4000 years of winds and rain erosion exascerabating the razing damage, but the further-away structures the invaders didn't get to perhaps should be more intact. Play up the 4000-year old ghost town issue more than the ruins, maybe.

Biodegradation isn't the only way things break down; there is also photodegradation, especially of dyes. Anything that was dyed or painted in the past might have been bleached white by sunlight.

Good point - though I had already sort of assumed a largely bleached environment.

I assume trees in the area are subject to the curse. If I walk in carrying an apple (assume for the moment that I can make it in without disintegrating), does the apple disintegrate? Why or why not? That is, is a thing that was part of a living thing considered alive?

Similarly, if I cut off my arm and immediately throw it across the curse border, does the arm disintegrate? What if I cut it off and then let it sit for a few weeks so it starts to rot, then throw it across? Maybe only the non-necrotic tissue disintegrates?

What does the curse do to a virus?

ALL livings things - plants, animals, fungi, microscopic organisms (including bacteria and viruses) are affected by the curse.

So.

If you cut off you arm and throw it into the curse border, it will still be alive, so will crumble to dust. At the point in which all the cells have died and you throw it across, the dead cells will not disintegrate (but any mould or bacteria or viruses etc will). If you throw necrotic tissue through, it will (sort of by definition) not crumble.

Apple is an interesting question, since it would rather depend on whether the tissue is "alive" or not. Seeds would, thinking about it, likely crumble to dust, since we know that seeds thousands of years old can germinate - at what point the flesh and skin of the fruit's cells die is an interesting question and one I'm not sure I can easily find an answer to (but I will have to try, if I have time).

I think a good metric is stuff like bread (minus any seeds) and meat will qualify as "dead," fruit and vegetation is a more touchy issue and would somewhat depend just on how long a plant cell is alive for.



Edit: Okay... That was SUPRISINGLY easy to find an answer for. So, basically, once you pick fruit (et al) the only bit that is not basically dying (as it ripens) is the seeds. So, fresh fruit - like your recently severed arm - is alive and the living tissue will crumble to dust, but ripe fruit is likely to be frozen - as Kami2awa said - just instead of seeds, there will be some sand in it. It is theorhetically possible, then, for the PCs to find a fruit of some sort in a secluded, protected spot (from physical erosion and photo-dissociation, that is entirely edible, if perhaps nasty tasting. (Given as the PCs are in question Liches, there's not much that is technically INedible but by the same token they're less likely to want to be eating random 4000 year old fruit just because they can safely...! Or I could be wrong, you never know with PCs!)

[ross]

Aplogies for the lack of replies, it's simply that between the enervating heat and being very bust this week, I just have not gotten around to it.



Interesting...

Because no bacteria or mould can grow in it, honey has allegedly been found in an edible state in ancient tombs, and remained edible.





Hmm. Maybe I should have more of the buildings intact than I currently nominal have - 4000 years of winds and rain erosion exascerabating the razing damage, but the further-away structures the invaders didn't get to perhaps should be more intact. Play up the 4000-year old ghost town issue more than the ruins, maybe.



Good point - though I had already sort of assumed a largely bleached environment.





ALL livings things - plants, animals, fungi, microscopic organisms (including bacteria and viruses) are affected by the curse.

So.

If you cut off you arm and throw it into the curse border, it will still be alive, so will crumble to dust. At the point in which all the cells have died and you throw it across, the dead cells will not disintegrate (but any mould or bacteria or viruses etc will). If you throw necrotic tissue through, it will (sort of by definition) not crumble.

Apple is an interesting question, since it would rather depend on whether the tissue is "alive" or not. Seeds would, thinking about it, likely crumble to dust, since we know that seeds thousands of years old can germinate - at what point the flesh and skin of the fruit's cells die is an interesting question and one I'm not sure I can easily find an answer to (but I will have to try, if I have time).

I think a good metric is stuff like bread (minus any seeds) and meat will qualify as "dead," fruit and vegetation is a more touchy issue and would somewhat depend just on how long a plant cell is alive for.



Edit: Okay... That was SUPRISINGLY easy to find an answer for. So, basically, once you pick fruit (et al) the only bit that is not basically dying (as it ripens) is the seeds. So, fresh fruit - like your recently severed arm - is alive and the living tissue will crumble to dust, but ripe fruit is likely to be frozen - as Kami2awa said - just instead of seeds, there will be some sand in it. It is theorhetically possible, then, for the PCs to find a fruit of some sort in a secluded, protected spot (from physical erosion and photo-dissociation, that is entirely edible, if perhaps nasty tasting. (Given as the PCs are in question Liches, there's not much that is technically INedible but by the same token they're less likely to want to be eating random 4000 year old fruit just because they can safely...! Or I could be wrong, you never know with PCs!)

So you've been able to conclusively prove that viruses are alive? You should publish your results right away!

[Kami2awa]

So you've been able to conclusively prove that viruses are alive? You should publish your results right away!

They aren't, but few can "survive" (ie remain viable enough to replicate) outside a host for long, so chances are not very many in the Imperishable City.

Note most metals will oxidise, so chances are there are no decent weapons left in your city. Silver will have gone black - gold will not tarnish, however. In high humidity, anything water-permeable will have absorbed water and possibly crumbled - things like mortar between bricks, and plaster on walls. A lot of ancient construction was done without mortar, however, and the vulnerability of eg plaster to moisture might mean that the builders of the city didn't use it in the first place.

Wooden items might have absorbed water, which would alter their properties significantly to make them much more pliable (so wooden floors might be unsafe, and bows would no longer be useful). Wooden construction might have collapsed.

Stone, however, lasts an extraordinarily long time. Really to make a stone building all you do is cut up the stone and re-arrange it in a different shape, and that stone is already millions of years old. If an outside force doesn't destroy it, it's there until it erodes away, which takes millions of years rather than thousands.

But, really, we don't know. 4000 years is a LONG time. It would be near impossible to create and observe these conditions in real life, so the effect of 4000 years without any biodegradation on an entire city is completely unknown, especially in high humidity where biodegradation is normally accelerated. So, if the science sounds plausible, then you can probably do whatever you wish!

[gkathellar]

Stone may be resilient, but mortar is significantly less so, so unless this is Incan-style construction, you can expect a lot of collapsed structures.

[WindStruck]

Something to take into account is oxidation. You know how books and old papers turn yellow? Apples turn brown inside? Rusting? All that is oxidation. I imagine 4000 years of that, combined with potential rain and erosion would do a lot.

[Xuc Xac]

Dead bodies won't rot, but they also won't heal. Rain, sun, and windblown sand will really add up over 4000 years. Any bodies even close to being outside (i.e. In any area that gets natural light and an occasional breeze) will be skeletonized. Once you get into interiors that require torches or lamps to see, you'll start finding mummies.

Any exposed iron will be gone. Paper will be so yellow and brittle that it will crumble to dust at a touch if it hasn't already been knocked apart by rain and wind. Bronze will be really green, but possibly still in good shape if out of the weather. Granite and basalt are fine but limestone, marble, and sandstone walls will crumble (and lose a lot of surface detail if they were carved).

If the area is swampy, some iron might be preserved (although deformed) but limestone and marble will be eroded much faster. You'll also have a lot of juicy black mummies instead of dry brown ones.

[Andor13]

Oxidation and water will have destroyed a lot. However the lack of rot will preserved a lot of the form of things, depending on how you want to run things, simple restorative magics (like Mending) may be able to save a lot.

Climate plays a role though. If this is some place with serious seasonal variation, and especially a freeze-thaw cycle, then that will do horrendous damage over 4,000 years without maintenance.

[TheStranger]

As a few recent posters have said, I wouldn't expect very much to survive for 4,000 years in a moist climate. If it's temperate, that's doubly true - few things will survive the freeze/thaw cycle. If it's located near a river, you also have to account for flooding and channel migration. Also, seismic activity, landslides, sinkholes, hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires, etc. Don't discount the cumulative effect of 4,000 years of occasional catastrophic events, because there will be many of them over that time frame.

Setting aside catastrophic events, stone will indeed hold up fairly well. Wood I'm less sure about - I would expect ordinary furniture to break down, but tree trunks or very stout framing timbers might have some integrity because the core is protected by the exterior. However, food, clothing, paper, etc. will probably be pretty much ruined. Wind, rain, and sun will do a lot of damage. Things indoors will fare better, but even so, the moisture in the air will break down a lot of things. The simple cycle of condensation and evaporation on exposed surfaces would probably degrade anything that's remotely water-soluble over 4,000 years. Also, even in a wet climate, there will be stretches of dry weather to dry out exposed material, followed by stretches of wet weather to turn it to mush (probably repeated at least 4,000 times on a seasonal basis).

Things that are not exposed to these effects, like food stored in sealed containers, should fare better. Though I'd hesitate to assume even an "airtight" container is truly sealed over that time frame. Things kept underground or deep inside large buildings should also be somewhat protected, since the structure insulates against daily, or even seasonal, variations in temperature and humidity. My intuition is that it's the *changes* in ambient conditions that will cause things to degrade, not the conditions themselves.

All that said, the person who said we have no real-world comparison and you should do whatever sounds cool is 100% correct.

[Florian]

The curse is a pretty interesting thing.

Assuming it is spherical, the city ruins will be covered by a very spherical mountain of sand....

[Aotrs Commander]

*taking notes ready for quest-writing day on Monday*