MitD XI: A good man

[Shashakiro]

If you aren't interested in actually hearing others opinions on the subject, why even post?

What I’m not interested in is (uncritically) accepting the conclusions of others simply because there is an alleged prior “consensus”.

Anyone who demands this as a prerequisite to “hearing” my views has my enthusiastic support if they wish to ignore them.

[Keltest]

What I’m not interested in is (uncritically) accepting the conclusions of others simply because there is an alleged prior “consensus”.

Anyone who demands this as a prerequisite to “hearing” my views has my enthusiastic support if they wish to ignore them.

I think you may have missed the point of this thread then. This is about collecting and examining evidence for the MITD's identity. Very little in the opening posts was determined arbitrarily, this is all information and logical deductions that the community that participates in this thread has agreed should be recorded. If you disagree with something presented, in this case the maximum size, then present some counter evidence and explain why you think the current standard is wrong.

[Shashakiro]

If you disagree with something presented, in this case the maximum size, then present some counter evidence and explain why you think the current standard is wrong.

Sure; didn’t we have a back and forth in just that vein on the previous page? I cited 1037 as my evidence, and the “dad” scene was offered as rebuttal. Perhaps that is sufficient and perhaps my view on lack of size limit is wrong; I haven’t examined the “dad” scene again yet to see what I think of the rebuttal.

My much larger beef is with the notion, now more explicitly set forth by grey wolf, that acceptance of the prior “consensus” is or ought to be a requirement for participating in this debate. I cannot possibly disagree more strongly with that view and will never adhere to it; if I think the “consensus” is wrong about some premise, I intend to say so regardless of whether this offends the curator.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the notion, now more explicitly set forth by grey wolf, that acceptance of the prior “consensus” is or ought to be a requirement for participating in this debate

False. I did not put anything of the sort forth. I merely pointed out that it is wrong to dismiss the opinion of everyone that established the sizing rules by pretending the consensus is merely "alleged". The consensus was established, there is no "alleged". You can go back to the thread when it was established and check for yourself. Everyone that disagreed with the decision - which IIRC included me - accepted that the vote was performed. You can participate in the debate, but you cannot dismiss the opinions of others as something I made up, which is what "alleged" means - something that is stated without proof and cannot be verified.

Now, unfortunately, even if you now were to stop with your insulting remarks, your position is well and truly poisoned, and by your own actions. I am no longer interested in having a debate with you, not because you do or do not accept that other people voted on this, but because you keep using words to mean things they do not, and do so in a way that insults everyone else's opinions.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

It's not a matter of "you can't disagree with the consensus." It's a matter of "it remains a consensus even if someone disagrees with it; you have to acknowledge the other people posting here whether you agree with them or not or you're not actually participating in a discussion in good faith."

If you truly think "the size of the creature in the darkness shouldn't matter" is not a minority opinion, you are free to nominate that criterion for removal, and if you turn out to be correct it will be removed from the criteria for the creature in the darkness.

[Shashakiro]

I accept that the voting procedures were used properly; I don’t accept that this accurately reflects anything I would agree to call “consensus”.

As I doubt I will be persuaded otherwise, I’d like to leave it at that, as this is veering into unpleasant territory.

[Peelee]

I accept that the voting procedures were used properly; I don’t accept that this accurately reflects anything I would agree to call “consensus”.

As I doubt I will be persuaded otherwise, I’d like to leave it at that, as this is veering into unpleasant territory.

I think you're conflating "consensus" with "unanimous."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I accept that the voting procedures were used properly; I don’t accept that this accurately reflects anything I would agree to call “consensus”.

As I doubt I will be persuaded otherwise, I’d like to leave it at that, as this is veering into unpleasant territory.

This verged into unpleasant territory the moment you decided to call the thread consensus "alleged".

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

I'm still bugged about that idea that the MitD is a polymorphed Serini. I don't think it's true, but the idea is intereting enough that I must examine it in detail. I don't insist on the monster strictly being Serini, I'd prefer to consider a monster who Serini has commissioned for some task connected to the rifts, and was got polymorphed. Whether Serini did the polymorphing himself or payed someone else is irrelevant.

First, about polymorphing in general. Polymorphing was featured several times in OOTS, so a reader may figure out something about how polymorphing works even if they aren't familiar with D&D. The most memorable use was of course when Vaarsuvius was baleful polymorphed to a lizard. During that time, she had her original mental facilties, and could cast some spells, including the suggestion that let her defeat the young adult black dragon. I believe this is actually against the D&D rules: [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm]the rules for Baleful Polymorph specifically says that “The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features”, which I think means that Vaarsuvius shouldn't have been able to cast spells at all. (The other rule that “All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form” was also ignored.) Other examples are Darth Vaarsuvius shapechanging to a pink dragon form (I wonder what kind of dragon that was by the way) to defeat the ancient black dragon and to destroy the bone golem; Vaarsuvius polymorphing to an animal that burrows under the sand in #679; Vaarsuvius proposing the plan to polymorph Blackwing to a roc; Miron baleful polymorphing Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator into a lizard in #926; and Leaky Windstuff shapechaning to a bear in #353.

The idea of recruiting a powerful monster for a task is also one that the comic has shown a lot. Xykon and Redcloak has the MitD working for them, as well as the zombie dragon, the guard monster at Dorukan's castle in #192, and the three Xykon look-alikes. Dorukan pays Celia for guarding the sigil. The comic also occasionally mentions wizards or sorcerers or druids magically creating or enchacing monsters they use. Xykon has animated the zombie dragon himself, Redcloak has probably created the three Xykon lookalikes, Tsukiko was planning to create a badass undead warrior from a dead paladin in #465 and the same idea occured to Xykon in #449, some crazy wizard may have created the owlbear; Leaky Windstaff the druid has magically awakened trees, and magically shielded them from fire and lightning, as shown in #345. Now the original crayon drawings around #277 say that Serini built a tomb in honor of Kragor, and filled it with the nastiest monsters in the world.

Because of some of these factors, many people have come up with the idea that the MitD is polymorphed or connected to Serini. Admittedly, all that was after the Giant revealed Serini's dungeon and Kragor's tomb around #1039, and I haven't yet had time to research the older threads to see how many people guessed something like that before that dungeon. I'll have to do that later. Obviously we can't expect some random combination of base spellcaster and target monster as the MitD, because that wouldn't be guessable. But the general idea that the MitD may be Serini or Serini's liege or that it's polymorphed may be guessable if it's executed very carefully.

I'd also like to remark two specific things.

Firstly, the MitD doesn't seem to notice the gates. Soon's oath meant that he couldn't check on the other gates, nor send the Sapphire Guard to check. #277 says that all five of the Order of the Scribble has taken such a promise, and Serini himself suggested that. But Serini is a rogue, she might not interpret that promise same way as Soon and Dorukan. Perhaps Serini could go or send a minion snooping, as long as that minion is magically compelled to not see the gates.

Secondly, the MitD's size. OOTS has deliberately shown an example of the spell Mass Enlarge Person. D&D also has the opposite spells Reduce Person (and also Reduce Animal), which can be made permanent with the Permanency spell, and the costs for that are such that Serini can probably afford if he built that dungeon. Now the interesting thing is, most of the candidates for the MitD aren't humanoid or animal, so these spells don't work on them. But if Serini magically reduced herself or a humanoid minion first, and then polymorphed them to a form with immense physical strength, then both of those effect could stick permanently, and he could get a mighty creature that is one size smaller than normal, and an intellect unusual for that kind of a beast. Mind you, I'm not sure if the reduction magic really interacts that way with polymorphing, but what with the polymorph houserules we've already seen with Vaarsuvius, we can't be sure in anything.

I don't really have any conclusion yet, but I'll try to research this idea more later, and perhaps someone in this thread has something to say about this that might help me.

[Keltest]

I think it would cheapen the reveal significantly if it were shown that the MITD wasn't actually the kind of monster behind the darkness, and cheapen his sudden and inevitable overt betrayal of Xykon if it were revealed he was actually working for Serini the whole time. I wont call it impossible, but narratively that's a lot of buildup for a totally different payoff.

[Peelee]

Lots

Assume, for the moment, that the MitD is polymorphed Serini. What did she polymorph into?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm still bugged about that idea that the MitD is a polymorphed Serini.

What Keltest said. Beyond that, mechanically, this feels like an awkward way to give MitD powers his creature type doesn't have. In which case, why wouldn't Rich pick a different creature that did have the powers he would need MitD to have for the plot? That is, in general, my problem with any of these clutches , "oh, it's an X but has teleport/wish/etc. because of Y" situations: when MitD's creature type was decided, Rich was unconstrained except by general size. He sat down to plan the plot, identified how MitD would be part of that, and chose a creature that would fit. Why would he pick a creature that could not do the things MitD needed to do, and then have to rely on some other process to give him those powers? I mean, he could've if he couldn't find a creature that fit the bill, but then I don't think he would have turned the whole thing into a guessing game.

Firstly, the MitD doesn't seem to notice the gates.

People read way too much into that running joke. If I were to take it seriously, I'd find it more plausible that to MitD, "gate" means a glowy circle in the middle of the air that takes you places, and he cannot see any such circle anywhere near the massive wooden barricade Xykon is pointing at.

I don't really have any conclusion yet, but I'll try to research this idea more later, and perhaps someone in this thread has something to say about this that might help me.

I think it very implausible due to character. Neither Serini nor any person picked by her would be as thoughtless as MitD, unless they were playing the role, and I do not believe that the entirety of MitD's characterization will turn out to be an elaborate ruse. Because if it was, it would mean we do not know MitD at all. That the character we think we know and that has slowly been changing before our eyes was never actually happening.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

What Keltest said. Beyond that, mechanically, this feels like an awkward way to give MitD powers his creature type doesn't have. In which case, why wouldn't Rich pick a different creature that did have the powers he would need MitD to have for the plot? That is, in general, my problem with any of these clutches , "oh, it's an X but has teleport/wish/etc. because of Y" situations: when MitD's creature type was decided, Rich was unconstrained except by general size.

Yes, certainly. It would be pretty cheap to just polymorph a high-level sorcerer to a huge strong monster just so that the MitD gets access to teleport. It would have to be much subtler than that, with the polymorph solving only some minor inconsistency.

Assume, for the moment, that the MitD is polymorphed Serini. What did she polymorph into?

I don't know yet. It would presumably be some candidate that is almost good enough for the MitD already, and we might have already considered it as such, but falls short in some respect. It probably has to be a candidate that already has enough physical strength and defenses. If size reduction is in play, then he needs a bit of extra strength and defenses that even the version reduced by one size can perform the tower scene and shrug off the attacks. Eg.

• The most likely case is that it's a good candidate monster that normally has low intelligence, so by itself it couldn't recognize half a ritual in #700, bluff Xykon into leaving the pyramid in #901, and deliver the political analysis about goblinoids in #1037. Vaarsuvius's mind still worked fine as a Lizard. #177: Vaarsuvius: “Clearly, while I was able to retain my mental faculties, the vocal chords of my new form are incapable of making proper speech”.
• On the opposite side, the shape could be of a monster that normally have good intelligence, but the original monster a child, which could explain why the MitD behaves childish.
• Perhaps it could be of a wrong subtype: an ooze, plant, or vermin. (Elementals druid's Wildshape). That gets around the problem of immunity to mind control: if Vaarsuvius kept her intelligence in polymorphed form, then she probably wouldn't get mind control immunity if she polymorphed to a monster that normally has that. It might also make the MitD sleep even if his current monster form normally doesn't. There are still lots of problems, such as eyes and bitemarks on taco, but it at least gets around one problem.
• It could be a monster that's just one size too large, but still has enough attacks and defenses when reduced one size category, if Reduce Person magic is in play. This works similar to the Dungeonbred template, but it has the advantage that it's possible with more creature types through Polymorph, and that Rich has definitely known about it around #100. Take for example Serini permanently Reduced in size and Polymorphed to Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Very Old Green Dragon. He would have access to level 5 sorcerer spells such as teleport, and if Serini has recently grown from Old to Very Old, then he might not have noticed that beacuse his size category doesn't change, but then he hadn't have access to that spell before. That form also explains the tower scene, the circus scene and hunters, sufficient defenses against weapon attacks, strange footprints and flight. Admittedly, polymorph is an overkill for this, and we need a more serious monster form, but I don't know a more reasonable way to reduce a Very Old Green Dragon to one size smaller.

I think it very implausible due to character. Neither Serini nor any person picked by her would be as thoughtless as MitD, unless they were playing the role, and I do not believe that the entirety of MitD's characterization will turn out to be an elaborate ruse.

I agree that the MitD isn't just playing a ruse. However, I don't see why Serini couldn't pick someone as thoughtless as the MitD. Serini has recruited a lot of monsters for that huge many-entrance dungeon he's built. Alternately, Serini could have polymorphed a person who wasn't thoughtless, but living polymorphed to a magical beast (or whatever it is) in the jungle for years could have a bad effect on the mind of any person, temporarily making them forget their previous life and how to behave like a civilized person, and then later when the MitD is captured and brought back to civilization, he could start to regain his previous memories. That's sort of what happened to Ayrton in Jules Verne's L'Île mystérieuse (The Mysterious Island), althoguh without the polymorph.

There's a much bigger problem with polymorphing though. The spells and abilities providing them don't work right, unlike what I tought. Baleful Polymorph can only turn one into a small or smaller size animal, which probably excludes almost any candidate monster. Polymorph lasts for a very short duration. Alter Self both lasts for too short and is restricted in creature type. Shapechange allows practically any form, but it also lasts for too short, and is a 9th level self that acts only on the caster. A druid's Wild Shape has a few advantages: it is not limited in duration, and the druid itself can cast Reduce Animal. But on the other hand, it can only transform the druid itself, is limited to animal and elemental forms, thus excluding probably any candidate monster that would be able to perform the escape scene, and it's hard to imagine how a druid ends up not knowing what he is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, certainly. It would be pretty cheap to just polymorph a high-level sorcerer to a huge strong monster just so that the MitD gets access to teleport. It would have to be much subtler than that, with the polymorph solving only some minor inconsistency.

And yet, in the rest of your post you are using it to give a usually mindless monster the ability to think - that is not minor by any definition I can think of.

I agree that the MitD isn't just playing a ruse. However, I don't see why Serini couldn't pick someone as thoughtless as the MitD.

Because that'd be a stupid decision - you don't pick a thoughtless individual and give them massive strength. That's just asking for trouble.

Worse, the whole timeline doesn't even make sense. Serini polymophed a thoughtless underling into a massively strong creature and then dumped them in a rainforest? What for? So that it could get captured, sold to a circus and eventually make its way to the employment of people who coincidentally are targeting the gates? What?

No, I'm sorry, this is a massive straw grasping exercise. If there is any hint of Serini's involvement given in the comic, maybe. But otherwise the whole connection is premised on "Serini bought strong creatures for her gate", and that is just not good enough. That there are other of MitD's species involved in Kraagor's tomb is a decent possibility. That MitD was manufactured by Serini and then let loose is not.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

And yet, in the rest of your post you are using it to give a usually mindless monster the ability to think - that is not minor by any definition I can think of.

Not a mindless one. Just one that has a mind but with a somewhat low intelligence, so that it normally couldn't recognize half a ritual or talk about how the hobgoblin politics affects bugbears; or one that can just fine think anyway but has immunity from mind-altering effects because D&D rules are weird (Buggy Lou).

Worse, the whole timeline doesn't even make sense. Serini polymophed a thoughtless underling into a massively strong creature and then dumped them in a rainforest? What for? So that it could get captured, sold to a circus and eventually make its way to the employment of people who coincidentally are targeting the gates?

Yeah. That probably wasn't the original plan, but I don't know what was.

Frankly, I didn't realize back when I suggested this that there's no suitable permanent polymorph spell available. I probably just mixed all the different polymorph spells and abilities in my head, which is why I thought there'd be a good one. If there was a way to permanently polymorph up physically strong creatures, then that would actually be a pretty cheap way for Serini to fill his dungeon with lots of threatening and possibly exotic creatures, cheaper than hunting them down. In particular, I knew that the Polymorph spell allows lots of monsters as the target form, can affect creatures other than the caster, and is a level 4 sorcerer spell, so it's something Serini could buy lots of castings of, but I failed to realize that it has such a short duration.

[hamishspence]

or one that can just fine think anyway but has immunity from mind-altering effects because D&D rules are weird (Buggy Lou).

I'm pretty sure Buggy Lou is supposed to be a Monstrous Humanoid, maybe a thri-keen, rather than a Vermin.

[b_jonas]

I'm pretty sure Buggy Lou is supposed to be a Monstrous Humanoid, maybe a thri-keen, rather than a Vermin.

Oh? I assumed he was a Giant Ant or something close to that. They're medium size, with the queen being large size, and the queen lives in a hive. Update: It's a pity that D&D treats them as having no intelligence, but I guess if they can talk in OOTS just to make them more relatable for the comic audience, then OOTS could just ignore that and make them not immune to mind-altering affects too.

They might not be giant ants, but I don't think they're thri-keen in particular: thre-keen don't live in hives.

[Keltest]

Oh? I assumed he was a Giant Ant or something close to that. They're of the right size, live in a hive, although D&D treats them as having no intelligence.

Arent Giant Ants just regular ants that are significantly larger than found in the real world?

[hamishspence]

Arent Giant Ants just regular ants that are significantly larger than found in the real world?

Yup:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantAnt.htm

[Crusher]

Oh? I assumed he was a Giant Ant or something close to that. They're medium size, with the queen being large size, and the queen lives in a hive. Update: It's a pity that D&D treats them as having no intelligence, but I guess if they can talk in OOTS just to make them more relatable for the comic audience, then OOTS could just ignore that and make them not immune to mind-altering affects too.

They might not be giant ants, but I don't think they're thri-keen in particular: thre-keen don't live in hives.

True about thri-kreen not having hives, though they've existed in a bunch of different settings (I didn't know they were originally Dark Sun though that totally makes sense in retrospect) and have a bunch of different variants so there could be one where they don't technically live in hives but still refer to their leader as "Hive Master" as an honorific is possible. In the Slave Pits of the Undercity (2e AD&D adventure) there's a nest of them and while its not, iirc, referred to as a hive, its basically a hive (in a big cave complex, huge immobile queen in an egg chamber with guards, rooms built off the sewer system for nurturing young, etc). On the other hand, they couldn't talk and were a lot more insect-like than Buggy Lou.

Fwiw, they look exactly like Thri-Kreen, though I agree it doesn't mean they *are* Thri-Kreen.

[Kish]

Regardless, Bugsy Lou was unambiguously a humanoid, not a giant ant. Not something to be offered as evidence that giant ants have been handwaved to intelligence in D&D and thus the creature in the darkness may have been too.

If you want an example of a creature that's unintelligent in D&D and intelligent enough to talk in OotS, try carrion crawlers, if you're willing to accept a throwaway joke as the answer--which you shouldn't.

[LadyEowyn]

On size, in my view Oona’s comment in 1037 essentially eliminates any upper bound on the species’ canonical size unless it is clearly established in the source material that MitD-sized versions of the same creature either lack the requisite attributes (such as strength), or that they cannot exist at all.

I agree with this. We know that the MITD is smaller than a typical member of its species. Therefore, any creature that fits the MITD's characteristics except for being larger than it is a reasonable guess.

[Crusher]

I accept that the voting procedures were used properly; I don’t accept that this accurately reflects anything I would agree to call “consensus”.

As I doubt I will be persuaded otherwise, I’d like to leave it at that, as this is veering into unpleasant territory.

What do you call a consensus?

[b_jonas]

Question. In the #901 bluff scene, the MitD says “Remember when I captured the paladin?” Why does he say that? I thought he wasn't there, Xykon captured O-Chul with his paralyzing touch.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question. In the #901 bluff scene, the MitD says “Remember when I captured the paladin?” Why does he say that? I thought he wasn't there, Xykon captured O-Chul with his paralyzing touch.

Answer: paralyzing O-Chul is not capturing him (not when your exist from the situation is using Miko's distraction as a why to save your about-to-be-defeated bones). MitD Captured O-Chul by finding him still paralized and dragging him to the tea party, and therefore keeping him until he rejoined the rest of Team Evil.

Grey Wolf

[Aposerofideas]

I just want to pose this as an idea.

The Dark One's progeny, who ascended as TDO did, but for whatever reason was unable to make the journey to the outer planes. Because they were abandoned, they weren't taught much (leading to stupidity), and because they ascended, they were unable to know or learn anything about the gates and snarl. Moreover, the purple quiddity may have unknown or unintended effects (since Thor said it had never been seen before), especially to a creature still on Prime, such as uncontrollable spell-like effects and unintentionally strong punches. Additionally, as a god, it would be unhurtable via normal weaponry and as a new god no one (like wizened wizards) would recognize it, but they might recognize the quiddity as a sign of its power. As for the nausea, it's entirely possible that they are physically ugly as hell on top of everything else (so that a little Rule of Funny can be added).

Yup, just an idea.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just want to pose this as an idea.

The Dark One's progeny, who ascended as TDO did, but for whatever reason was unable to make the journey to the outer planes. Because they were abandoned, they weren't taught much (leading to stupidity), and because they ascended, they were unable to know or learn anything about the gates and snarl. Moreover, the purple quiddity may have unknown or unintended effects (since Thor said it had never been seen before), especially to a creature still on Prime, such as uncontrollable spell-like effects and unintentionally strong punches. Additionally, as a god, it would be unhurtable via normal weaponry and as a new god no one (like wizened wizards) would recognize it, but they might recognize the quiddity as a sign of its power. As for the nausea, it's entirely possible that they are physically ugly as hell on top of everything else (so that a little Rule of Funny can be added).

Yup, just an idea.

This would be the very definition of something Rich created for this story.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

I just want to pose this as an idea.

The Dark One's progeny, who ascended as TDO did, but for whatever reason was unable to make the journey to the outer planes. Because they were abandoned, they weren't taught much (leading to stupidity), and because they ascended, they were unable to know or learn anything about the gates and snarl. Moreover, the purple quiddity may have unknown or unintended effects (since Thor said it had never been seen before), especially to a creature still on Prime, such as uncontrollable spell-like effects and unintentionally strong punches. Additionally, as a god, it would be unhurtable via normal weaponry and as a new god no one (like wizened wizards) would recognize it, but they might recognize the quiddity as a sign of its power. As for the nausea, it's entirely possible that they are physically ugly as hell on top of everything else (so that a little Rule of Funny can be added).

Yup, just an idea.

How is it able to be mind-controlled if it's divine? Also, that's not only a template, it's a made-up one.

[EmperorSarda]

I logged in to suggest a Kandra/Mistwraith. But Mistborn came out in 2006, two years after strip 100 came out.

Oh well...

[Crusher]

I logged in to suggest a Kandra/Mistwraith. But Mistborn came out in 2006, two years after strip 100 came out.

Oh well...

You can still guess it. I mean, who knows? Maybe Rich somehow knew it was coming?