MitD XI: A good man

[Peelee]

Yes, but you have not established that "google hits" are a valid thing to consider when contemplating how well known MitD species needs to be, just said it was. Even if I agreed that it had to be well known - which I do not - "how many hits you get in google in 2018" is an irrelevant measure when contemplating a creature picked in 2004. Thus my comment about your method requiring Rich to have gone through the process of it at comic #100.

Devil's Advocate: One could take the sales figures of Monster Manuals or other splatbooks, both first and third party, at comic 100's date of release to have a relative level of how well-known a monster could conceivably be, the higher number of sales obviously correlating to the likelihood that a monster in said book would be well-known. There's no good answer to this challenge, of course, but this seems to be the best. Any extrapolation that such likelihood would result in useful information, though, even this devil can't advocate.

[Shashakiro]

Yes, but you have not established that "google hits" are a valid thing to consider when contemplating how well known MitD species needs to be, just said it was.

The way I read it, you implied two separate claims in your first response to me, one that popularity is irrelevant to MitD's species, and one that popularity could not be measured.

The Google comment was meant solely as a refutation of the "cannot be measured" claim. Your point that 2018 popularity is not necessarily 2004 popularity is well taken, but I still expect some correlation between the two. It's quite clear to me from this admittedly ad-hoc method that Slaads are almost certainly (both now and in 2004) a lot more famous than Proteans, ANBs, or Uvuudaums; are you seriously suggesting that this conclusion is either actually false or correct only by total random coincidence? If (and only if) not, then I would say current Google hits are clearly at least correlated to 2004 popularity, and thus at least loosely able to measure it.

As for whether or not popularity correlates with likelihood of a creature being MitD's species, I never meant to set forth anything more than a very basic outline of why I think it's true, since that opinion's correctness relies at bottom on what amounts to a gut-level belief (one you clearly disagree with) that Rich definitely did not consider obscurity a positive factor when deciding what MitD was.

[b_jonas]

Even if I agreed that it had to be well known - which I do not - "how many hits you get in google in 2018" is an irrelevant measure when contemplating a creature picked in 2004.

Let's try to be constructive though. Google has a service for measuring how popular a phrase was back in the past. Two such services in fact. The more relevant is Google trends (example link looks for Slaad and Glabrezu in the United States), which measures how popular a phrase is in search queries, and their data goes back to 2004. You might want to play with it and compare other monster names. This shows that Slaads were probably more popular than Glabrezus in 2004, but not overwhelmingly so; Zeus was much more popular than either of them, and Dragons were much more popular even than Zeus. The other is Google Ngram viewer, which measures how popular a phrase is in all the books whose text Google Books has. The latter doesn't seem to help much though, because the names of most of the commonly suggested monsters don't appear in book often enough to register. "Protean" does appear, but it probably mostly appears as the rare adjective meaning rather than the D&D monster; "Dragon" does appear often, but we already know they're one of the most well-known monsters; "Zeus" appears slightly less often than "Dragon"; "Grue" appears but is very rare, and it's a short word so some of its occurrances could be incorrectly OCRed instances of some other word; "Tarrasque" is even rarer and appears the most often in the 19th century.

Of course not. You claimed not to understand how well-known-ness "could be measured", and I answered.

Shashakiro: I'd like to add that in 2014, we had an informal poll on the thread to measure which MitD candidates are well-known. Grey_Wolf_c started this, and several people answered with their lists. Here's his original post:

As an exercise for the readers, can you guys run down the list and give me a number of the ones you guys did know before the thread and which ones you don't? Oh, and be hones - don't count the Astral Dragon just because you knew about chromatic dragons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The way I read it, you implied two separate claims in your first response to me, one that popularity is irrelevant to MitD's species, and one that popularity could not be measured.

The Google comment was meant solely as a refutation of the "cannot be measured" claim.

They are separate, but both are necessary to be related to the matter at hand. Even if, for minute, I accepted your premise that Rich picked MitD based on how well known the species is, you'd still need to demonstrate that your method of determining popularity was used by Rich in 2004. Until you can demonstrate that, the method you suggest remains completely arbitrary and thus utterly useless to this thread. There are infinite ways to measure popularity, and as usual, no two people wanting to use it seem to be able to agree on which one to use (most literally base it on what they find popular, for example).

Yes, beyond this there is also the inescapable fact that the whole premise is flawed, but even ignoring that, your approach is quite suspect.

Devil's Advocate: One could take the sales figures of Monster Manuals or other splatbooks, both first and third party, at comic 100's date of release to have a relative level of how well-known a monster could conceivably be, the higher number of sales obviously correlating to the likelihood that a monster in said book would be well-known. There's no good answer to this challenge, of course, but this seems to be the best.

Let's try to be constructive though. Google has a service for measuring how popular a phrase was back in the past.

Either of these is certainly more relevant than the "google hits" suggested, but I remain skeptical that either represents the popularity of recognizability of any given individual species. Peelee's is too broad - hard to pin down a given creature in a book, and I can believe that trends would miss niche interests like D&D.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Peelee's is too broad - hard to pin down a given creature in a book, and I can believe that trends would miss niche interests like D&D.

It also has the weakness of not being able to track used book sales or shared books among friends, for obvious reasons.

[b_jonas]

Either of these is certainly more relevant than the "google hits" suggested, but I remain skeptical that either represents the popularity of recognizability of any given individual species.

Certainly. A fourth possible imperfect measurement of popularity is how often new contributors mention a species when they arrive to this thread. For example, at least two people have independently thought of grues just in this thread and the last four together (there were questionable hits and I stopped searching after five threads), and I recall that people often mention ancient Greek deities, especially Zeus. Even I have suggested dragons. (Not just any dragon, more specific than that, but dragons come in multiple different types, so that's not so strange.)

and I can believe that trends would miss niche interests like D&D.

Trends is the most useful in the cases when the monster name is really a unique word, never before used, and not even a plausible typo of a common word like "salad", such as (I believe) "Glabrezu", "Uvuudaum" and "Carbosilicate Amorph". The latter two are too rare to show up in Trends, but that at least indicates that they might be less well known than Glabrezus, unless of course "Glabrezu" has some other meaning I don't know of.

[Crusher]

I'm just focusing on the important aspects of this discussion. Such as...

(and Ruck, I changed my vote to Slaad a few posts ago)

I thought you'd only said you were learning towards changing, but were looking for more details before finalizing it. Did you actually change it?

[Hardcore]

I really want that list of creatures with access to wish /miracle. I would compile one myself if I had the source books 😣

[Ruck]

(and Ruck, I changed my vote to Slaad a few posts ago)

Well, the list of cons for the Slaad is even longer than that for the ANB. (ANB is my second choice, for the record.) We've seen a slaad depicted in the strip before, which would make for an underwhelming reveal were it MitD's species.

[ti'esar]

I actually think the appearance factor is a possible advantage for the black slaad (and only the black slaad), just because having the MitD turn out to actually look like this very much seems like the kind of joke the Giant might make.

[Peelee]

I actually think the appearance factor is a possible advantage for the black slaad (and only the black slaad), just because having the MitD turn out to actually look like this very much seems like the kind of joke the Giant might make.

It would make the circus scene nonsensical though.

[Kish]

Grey Wolf suggested a while ago that he might currently be a white slaad, which will emerge from the darkness and then quickly turn into a black slaad, his appearance thus reverting to what it was when he was hidden.

[Crusher]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html

Hmm. The first panel of the second page either means the MITD is definitely not native to the Astral Plane, OR the Giant just wants us to think that...

[Throknor]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html

Hmm. The first panel of the second page either means the MITD is definitely not native to the Astral Plane, OR the Giant just wants us to think that...

Since he currently lives near the North Pole I think it's just an observation about trademarked creatures.

What I got from it was that the MITD recognizing the plane implies he traveled through it at least once.

[eras10]

Just stopping by after six years away from this thread because I suspect we're going to learn quite a bit about the MiTD fairly soon. Could be wrong.

Wasted 20 minutes of my life rereading the 5th MITD thread. What a miserable and offensive experience that was all around.

Definitely don't want any part of continuing to discuss the issue - haven't even opened this forum in years - but tonight it occurred to me to say that I'm still waiting and watching to see your approach to this thread be totally vindicated. Maybe I'll remember to drop by and see the reactions when it's over.

[kraitmarais]

Since he currently lives near the North Pole I think it's just an observation about trademarked creatures.

What I got from it was that the MITD recognizing the plane implies he traveled through it at least once.

The MitD isn't something trademarked, and that panel establishes that everything native to the Astral Plane is probably trademarked, so the deduction is that the MitD probably isn't native to the Astral Plane.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the North Pole.

[Caerulea]

Back in the 2nd or 3rd thread, I made a spreadsheet for myself of every monster in MM1 through MM3 that could cast spells as a sorcerer level 18+, cleric 17+ or wizard 17+.

I am thinking of creating an (inexhastive) database of all of the monsters I know about and their abilities (basically everything on d20srd.org). Would such a thing be useful to this thread? If so, what are some good resources for finding monsters not in d20srd.org online? I have never played d&d and thus have access to no physical books.

[Kish]

Tricky question. If it's not in the SRD, it's not legally supposed to be available online, which doesn't mean that such sources don't exist but does mean that pointing you to them here would be a violation of the forum rules.

[Throknor]

The MitD isn't something trademarked, and that panel establishes that everything native to the Astral Plane is probably trademarked, so the deduction is that the MitD probably isn't native to the Astral Plane.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the North Pole.

Thor says 'no one lives here', not 'no one is native here'.

[Crusher]

Maybe I'll remember to drop by and see the reactions when it's over.

When the reveal happens (which I suspect will be around 2021. I’m guessing either very late in the next thread or early the one after), I hope so. It’ll be a party in these parts! I’ll bring virtual punch and pie.

[Peelee]

When the reveal happens (which I suspect will be around 2021. I’m guessing either very late in the next thread or early the one after)), I hope so. It’ll be a party in these parts! I’ll bring virtual punch and pie.

I got the digital pizza.

[Kish]

I'm dropping Infernal from my list of guesses.

[Hardcore]

The MitD isn't something trademarked, and that panel establishes that everything native to the Astral Plane is probably trademarked, so the deduction is that the MitD probably isn't native to the Astral Plane.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the North Pole.

Afaik, we do not know if MitD is TM or not. (couldn't find anything about that in the first post)
There is therfore a chance Thor's comment is a hint about MitDs nature.

[Keltest]

Afaik, we do not know if MitD is TM or not. (couldn't find anything about that in the first post)
There is therfore a chance Thor's comment is a hint about MitDs nature.

Discussion of whether or not a creature being trademarked should count against it is, IIRC, strictly verboten in this thread, since it treads on the "no professional advice" forum rule (ie no acting as a trademark or copyright lawyer).


Edit: yes, its under the FAQ.

[Hardcore]

Discussion of whether or not a creature being trademarked should count against it is, IIRC, strictly verboten in this thread, since it treads on the "no professional advice" forum rule (ie no acting as a trademark or copyright lawyer).


Edit: yes, its under the FAQ.

Thanks, found it. It lead to a question: non-dnd suggestions are not ok, but dnd is. What is the difference? Aren't those dnd creatures TM too?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanks, found it. It lead to a question: non-dnd suggestions are not ok, but dnd is. What is the difference? Aren't those dnd creatures TM too?

No, that distinction is due to copyright, not trademark. In general, trademark is a lot, lot, lot harder to use that "mere" copyrighted material. But the reasons for that are neither here nor there: the distinction is made based on the fact that we see copyrighted D&D creatures all over the place in the comic, therefore they must be fine. Why that is is NOT to be discussed, please.

(You can google "[creature name] trademark" to see if a given creature is trademarked. For example, pikachu).

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Thanks, found it. It lead to a question: non-dnd suggestions are not ok, but dnd is. What is the difference? Aren't those dnd creatures TM too?

Im… not sure I understand the question. Plenty of non-D&D creatures have been put forward as serious suggestions. A Snorlax is actually one of the stronger contenders if you ignore its legal status, perhaps even the strongest. This is a speculation thread, so the "rules," such as they are, are mostly only present to make sure people understand how the thread is being organized and to make sure people understand that the Forum Rules still apply. Nobody, not even Grey Wolf, can say "you aren't allowed to believe it is X creature" with any enforceability.

[Fish]

The recent thread inside the astral plane made me wonder something. In particular, the barrier that Thor pointed out, which keeps anyone from accidentally happening across (or into) the celestial graveyard.

1. We have reason to suspect the MITD is familiar with the astral plane.
2. We also have reason to suspect the MITD is hard to confine. It has its escape trick, which may or may not be related to wish ir a similar d20-compatible power; and it certainly doesn’t seem particularly confined by its crate, wandering in and out if it seemingly at will.

Here’s what I wonder:

A. Is it possible that the MITD escaped out of, or into, the graveyard, or otherwise crossed that barrier? If so, does that enlighten us at all?
B. Is it fruitful to imagine candidate monsters that have “escape” or “can’t be confined” as their primary power, rather than wish?

[Leirus]

The recent thread inside the astral plane made me wonder something. In particular, the barrier that Thor pointed out, which keeps anyone from accidentally happening across (or into) the celestial graveyard.

1. We have reason to suspect the MITD is familiar with the astral plane.
2. We also have reason to suspect the MITD is hard to confine. It has its escape trick, which may or may not be related to wish ir a similar d20-compatible power; and it certainly doesn’t seem particularly confined by its crate, wandering in and out if it seemingly at will.

Here’s what I wonder:

A. Is it possible that the MITD escaped out of, or into, the graveyard, or otherwise crossed that barrier? If so, does that enlighten us at all?
B. Is it fruitful to imagine candidate monsters that have “escape” or “can’t be confined” as their primary power, rather than wish?

You know, that last strip (1139) made me think that maybe the MitD is a refugee from the last world, via the astral plane. So maybe he could be a monster from an older edition?
He could be a slightly version of a known monster, that would explain him having abilities that he should not (I am thinking about the teleportation thing, a bad fit for several proposals).
I know this is not terribly helpful and I apologize in advance.

[Peelee]

You know, that last strip (1139) made me think that maybe the MitD is a refugee from the last world, via the astral plane. So maybe he could be a monster from an older edition?
He could be a slightly version of a known monster, that would explain him having abilities that he should not (I am thinking about the teleportation thing, a bad fit for several proposals).
I know this is not terribly helpful and I apologize in advance.

How would Dorukan have a whole dungeon of older edition monsters if they could only be from older worlds? Or how could Hale's father be a first edition thief?