Reading Discworld!

[Mith]

I try and make a point of re reading Hog Father around Christmas time every year. It's my personal Yuletide story.

So... There's a joke that really stuck to me... It isn't the funniest in the book, but IMHO, it perfectly exemplifies the mix of light-hearted humor and dark comedy of the book. It's a just a short line about how Death really starts enjoying playing the role of Hogfather, because except for very rare and depressing occasions, no one is ever happy to see him.

Terry Pratchett would get letters from terminally ill readers who told him that his portrayal of Death actually helped them come to terms with their condition and fate, as they could hope for some good company in the form of the Reaper before passing on.

Those left him staring at the wall for a while each time.

[Fyraltari]

Hogsfather is definetely my favourite Discworld novel closely followed by Small Gods. What can I say? The characters are great, the message is great, the vilain is grat and the humour is great! It's also, arguably, the last DEATH book as Susan takes precedence over him in the following ones.

Next is Jingo, not great, but not really bad, a decent Watch book, basically.

[Corvus]

Hogfather is certainly up there among my favourites, though isn't my absolute favourite. Still, it is a must read at Christmas time.

Jingo, while not among my favourites, still has, to me, one of the funniest lines in all of the Discworld books, and it comes from Detritus of all people.

[Rodin]

Hogfather is certainly up there among my favourites, though isn't my absolute favourite. Still, it is a must read at Christmas time.

Jingo, while not among my favourites, still has, to me, one of the funniest lines in all of the Discworld books, and it comes from Detritus of all people.

Would this happen to be:

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All der way. Trust me on this one.

Because that's one of my favorite lines.

I think I have a higher opinion of Jingo than most. I tend to like the Watch books the most out of the whole series, with just a couple of exceptions (Hogfather and Small Gods) standing above them. I really like Colon and Nobby's antics in it, and it has a number of memorable moments. I can never quite decide whether I like Jingo or Feet of Clay more.

[Corvus]

Would this happen to be:

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All der way. Trust me on this one.

Because that's one of my favorite lines.

As Detritus would say "Dat's der bunny." :)

[dehro]

I don't know about it being the best book, but it's one of those I'll re-read quite often. It's one that really comes to mind when I have to think of a very funny one. It also ties in with my passion for History, shining a light on the cultural entanglements of British colonialism.
The Patrician truly shines [I removed an inadvertent spoiler]

[Calemyr]

As Detritus would say "Dat's der bunny." :)

Detritus really gets some gems in Jingo. I personally favor the "I know which way der wind's blowin'" conversation. I still have trouble deciding which way to read it was intended, and all of them are amusing.

Spoiler: What I really love most about Jingo - and this really is a spoiler.

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What I love most about Jingo is the Dis-Organizer's To-Do list.

One of the weak parts of the Discworld series is ironically the sheer strength of its protagonists. With the possible exception of the Witches (who, at times, do fetch up against genuinely threatening opponents that really put them through their paces), most Discworld protagonists never feel like they're really endangered. At worst, the question tends not to be "how can they win this?", but rather "how badass will their victory be?". Their victory is never really in doubt, and the concept of them losing really is never considered.

In Jingo, the Watch does lose, and in the worst way possible. Not canonically, of course, but thanks to the Dis-Organizer Vimes is forced to listen as the times of death for everyone he cares about get listed with clinical precision in the knowledge that one choice - one single gut reaction - was what separated him from watching helplessly as everyone gets cut down like so much wheat.

That moment, that scene, chills my blood every time I read it and for more than just that reason. This was never meant to be a war, some jolly slaughtering ground off in foreign lands where the blood of the nation's youth is shed to soothe the temperment of elders like it was some kind of sport. That was the way Ankh-Morpork and its neighbors played at war, after all. No, the prince meant it to be a massacre, the careful and calculated obliteration of a foreign rival to consolidate the disparate factions at home. And it would have been exactly that, war in a way Ankh-Morpork was not prepared to consider, if one simple-minded-but-honest old thief-taker had tried to play the statesman instead of the copper he knew he was.

And then we find out that Carrot has talked both armies into replacing bloody combat with a game of football/soccer, and the world returns to normal.

Jingo isn't my favorite book, not even among the Watch series, but it still holds a special and unique place in my heart for a great many reasons.

[Lemmy]

Lemmy's Quick Hindsight Review of Discworld!

"The Colour of Magic" & "Light Fantastic"

I'm taking these two together because they are pretty much just one long book...

These are the only Discworld books I had read before starting this thread. I did it around 15 years ago, when I was a teenager, and loved the humor.

Years later, re-reading them... I still think they are funny. They aren't a great story, but they sure are entertaining. Having read so much more of Discworld now, it's funny to see how different the setting and Pratchett's writing were at the time... Death was kinda of a ****, wizards were described as skinny guys, the number 8 was a huge deal, the laws of magic were a mess... And the books were little more than a collection of comedy skits. But even that early it's possible to see the brilliance of PTerry's trying to get out.

They are funny books that I still enjoy, but don't really offer much more than a good laugh and the very occasional glimpse of what would later become Discworld's witty comments and insights on human nature.

"Equal Rites"

Ah... Equal Rites... The book that made me start this thread. Because it bored me so much I almost completely gave up on the whole series! (Thank you, everyone, for convincing me to stick with it!).

Honestly... This is the only Discworld book I've read that I'd call bad, despite it actually being pretty well-written in general.

It's odd, because the writing sure is better than the first two novels, and there's an actual story this time... But it's just so. freaking. boring. Granny Weatherwax is pretty much the only enjoyable part of the book. Every page without her is a chore to get through. I simply couldn't care about the story or the characters (except for proto-Granny Weatherwax). The book does get better in the last few pages, but by then, it was too little, too late. I was just happy to get over with it.

"Mort"

And then there's Mort... Holy Crap! Did this book catch me by surprise?! I had heard that Discworld books got better starting here, but I honestly didn't expect such a huge leap in quality from one book to another. This is where PTerry first hits his stride. I found myself absolutely loving the story and characters... While the idea of "The Grim Reaper has human-ish thoughts and feelings, and is kinda grumpy but not evil" isn't quite as original nowadays, this certainly wasn't the case in 1987. And I had never seen such a take on the character so masterfully done before.

Mort is the point where I fell in love with Discworld... And immediately regretted not having read the series sooner.

"Sourcery"

Another "I love this series!" moment. While the story is not as clever and insightful as "Mort", Sourcery is definitely more exciting! The whole book is a blast to read through! I love how the whole situation quickly scales to world-shattering proportions! Magic gets pumped out of control and changes the way it works, gods are imprisoned, wizards go to war, lovecraftian abominations threaten to get loose... The whole Discworld is almost shattered!

And it's all fixed by... A cowardly wizard with half-a-brick in a sock and no spellcasting abilities whatsoever.

I know I've mentioned this many times in this thread, but the climax of this books is still one my favorite character moments in all Discworld novels so far! Definitely top 3, possibly number 1!

The way Rincewind, despite his cowardice and limitations decides to face the Sourcerer, possibly the most powerful being the Discworld has ever seen, despite being completely aware he has absolute no chance is only outdone by how he discards that idea, not because of fear, but because he sees finds out the Sourcerer is just a child. One that has been abused all his life by his controlling father. Rincewind is more averse to harming an innocent child than he is afraid of fighting a reality-bending monster. He sincerely wants to help the boy (and if that gets him out of having to fight a Sourcerer! Even better!). And he proves that again by sacrificing himself to save Coin from the Dungeon Dimensions.

- - -

More of "Lemmy's Quick Hindsight Review of Discworld" to come soon.

- - -

You know... I've read/watched many of Sir Terry Pratchett's comments and interviews over the years, but for some reason never had taken the time to actually read his books. A fact that I will regret for the rest of my life.... But at least I get to do it now, and perhaps bring a little bit of entertainment to you guys too, by giving you my first-timer's impression of each book.

Once again, thank you all for reading and posting in this thread. I know I don't reply as often as I'd like, but I do try to read every (non-spoilery ) post here.

Cheers!

[Lemmy]

Sorry for the lack of posts, but between work trips and visiting my family, I didn't have a lot of free time...

Anyway... I was going to post a quick analysis of my Discworld experience so far, how hindsight provided by later books alter my perception of the earlier ones... But, honestly it was difficult to find the time and energy to do it. And I really want to go back to reading the books now that I had a little break.

So I'll go back to my original read-and-review plan... I can always make a comparison post later, after all...

BTW, I watched the Soul Music animation... It's a decent adaptation for the most part. It's awesome to have Sir Christopher Lee's voice for Death. The only thing that I really disliked was how they skip the part where Buddy re-starts The Music. Instead, Death just shows up, defeats it with a quick guitar solo and that's it... The end. That made the ending really anti-climatic, IMO. The actual music is ok. Not bad, not particularly good either... I wouldn't money on the soundtrack.

Anyway... I started reading Jingo today, so I should have my first-timer review soon enough.

Cheers, everyone!

[Evil DM Mark3]

BTW, I watched the Soul Music animation... It's a decent adaptation for the most part. It's awesome to have Sir Christopher Lee's voice for Death. The only thing that I really disliked was how they skip the part where Buddy re-starts The Music. Instead, Death just shows up, defeats it with a quick guitar solo and that's it... The end. That made the ending really anti-climatic, IMO. The actual music is ok. Not bad, not particularly good either... I wouldn't money on the soundtrack.

My favourite adaptation choice for the animation (one that PTerry also liked according to interviews) was Cliff's voice. What sort of voice should a troll musician have? Why, a deep jaz man's voice of course.

[Lemmy]

My favourite adaptation choice for the animation (one that PTerry also liked according to interviews) was Cliff's voice. What sort of voice should a troll musician have? Why, a deep jaz man's voice of course.

That was indeed a great choice! Other than Christopher Lee, it was by far the coolest and most fitting voice in the show!

[Corvus]

More casting news for The Watch.

We now have a female Vetinari, a female CMOT Dibbler, a female Dr Cruces and Wonse has gone from being Vetinari's aide to a female wizard hopeful.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Night Watch (the book)

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Vimes impersonating Keel will be rather tricky.

[Corvus]

Spoiler: Night Watch (the book)

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Vimes impersonating Keel will be rather tricky.

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At this stage I think it is safe to say that they have no regards to following the source material, plots, characters or messages in the books. They might as well just rename everyone and be done with it as it isn't Discworld anymore.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Night Watch (the book)

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Vimes impersonating Keel will be rather tricky.

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I’m not sure but I don’t think Vimes met anybody who had met Keels before in that book.

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At this stage I think it is safe to say that they have no regards to following the source material, plots, characters or messages in the books. They might as well just rename everyone and be done with it as it isn't Discworld anymore.

While I find Rihanna Pratchett’s leaving to be a bad sign, I think that’s a bit early to draw this kind of conclusions.

[Eldan]

I concluded this wasn't for me when they announced that Lady Sybil is young, slim, conventionally handsome and fights crime as a vigilante. She's one of my favourite characters in the books and this is close to blasphemy.

[Corvus]

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I’m not sure but I don’t think Vimes met anybody who had met Keels before in that book.

While I find Rihanna Pratchett’s leaving to be a bad sign, I think that’s a bit early to draw this kind of conclusions.

The problem is that almost none of the characters really resemble the book ones anymore. File off the names and it is getting to the point that it is unrecognisable. It is getting to the level of Starship Troopers, where the difference between the book and the movie was stark. The movie was amusing in a b-grade kind of way, but it wasn't based on the book at all.

[Silfir]

The director of the Starship Troopers movie actively loathed the book and set out to make the movie the opposite of what he felt the book stood for. The result was a cautionary tale against militaristic fascism.

I don't think that's quite what's happening here - it would be difficult to see how this project would get off the ground if it was made by people who had active disdain for the source material. Somehow, though, that would almost be better. Starship Troopers was a good movie.

Female Vetinari bothered me quite a bit, though I can't quite pinpoint why. It's the sheer arbitrariness, I think. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there was a meeting that concluded that there weren't enough female characters of note in the show, and they picked a central cast member at random to genderswap. Almost wish they'd picked Vimes instead, that would have been a sight to see. There's just no rhyme or reason I can see behind this decision otherwise.

I have to give Eldan some thanks of sorts for reminding me why I had mentally checked out of the project already. Axing Sybil and replacing her with a completely different character who happens to have the same name was what did it, I'd just managed to suppress the memory.

[uncool]

Female Vetinari bothered me quite a bit, though I can't quite pinpoint why.

A couple reasons that pop into my mind:

1) The Discworld books, especially the early ones, and Ankh-Morpork in particular, lean heavily into the "standard fantasy" worldbuilding, where those in formal power were explicitly men, and women generally had informal power. There were some nobles (Lady Sybil, of course, as well as Lady Meserole, if you allow Night Watch), as well as exceptions for obvious reasons (Mrs. Palm), but otherwise, the guild leaders, the Patricians, the military leaders, the University, etc. were posts for men.

2) ...which makes it worse because Pratchett explicitly addressed that sexism, in such a way that having Vetinari be female conflicts with including that address. For example, the Assassin's Guild itself: the first class of women appeared after Vetinari had graduated, and while he could have been hiding his gender, he was also shown as an outcast in a "boys culture", where appearing feminine would have absolutely been used against him. By having a female Vetinari, this version would weaken that "boys culture", and as such weaken the themes in the later Discworld Assassins' Guild Yearbook and Diary.

3) And that leads to what may be the biggest point: Discworld at the time of the books is explicitly a world experiencing major changes in the role of women. This theme is explored over (Equal Rites) and over (Monstrous Regiment) and over (Men at Arms) and over (Feet of Clay) and over (Assassins' Guild Yearbook and Diary) again. If Vetinari - one of the most important people in that world - is clearly a woman, and that isn't woven into that theme, it weakens that theme enormously.

[Rodin]

My first thought about female Vetinari was "wait, how do you have a female Patrician?"

Doing some research shows that this wouldn't be a problem - a patrician is just a person of noble birth, and can be of either gender.

I agree with uncool's thoughts on it for the rest. It doesn't fit the setting to have a female Patrician, and it's not like the books are lacking in strong female roles.

Doing a count of the major Watch characters, there are 5 male characters in the (Vimes, Carrot, Detritus, Colon, Nobby) and three female (Angua, Cheery, and Sybil). Of those, Colon and Nobby are a "those two guys" pair mainly used for comedy instead of having a major role in the story. It seems reasonably fair on the gender distribution to me, but if it's a problem why not just add an additional woman to the cast? An original character might cause some objections, but surely less than gender flipping established characters at random.

Making Cruces a woman destroys the Etonian "old boys club" depiction of the Assassin's Guild, and Eton is controversial in the UK even today.

Making Wonse a female wizard has its own problems for the depictions of the wizards, but I don't actually have a big problem with this because it's not like Equal Rites is ever going to get a TV adaptation. Making Wonse a wizard at all is a horrible decision.

Keel!? Whuh? WHY?

And then there's vigilante Sybil. Yikes.

I am definitely not watching this day 1. It's going to have to get stellar reviews for me to be interested, because everything points to this being DINO.

[Evil DM Mark3]

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I’m not sure but I don’t think Vimes met anybody who had met Keels before in that book.

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Ned Coates, its a plot point. However, it is implied that people have descriptions to match against as they say that Vimes does look a lot like Keel. I think if this Vimes had shown up Coates would have just gone "Oh come on, he's ing white!"

[Evil DM Mark3]

female wizard hopeful.

My brain just clicked on this. No! Nononononono! Wonse the petty beurocrat was ideal for the story. Wonse the Esk 2.0 is, I am starting to wonder if this ISN'T a Starship troopers situation!

[Wraith]

I have to say, for the most part, I like how the cast looks. I'm looking at their faces, and in some cases am familiar with their other work, and I can see how they could work quite well in Discworld.

Lady Sybil is possibly the weak link because, as many people have said already, Lara Rossi is a lot younger than we were expecting. But then, she's no longer "Lady Sybil" as we know her, so of all the things to change her age is the least important thing and I'm still looking forward to what they're trying to do with her.

Similarly, they hopefully won't have 'Throat try to be a "Cheeky Cok-er-ney Sparra" and end up just doing a poor Del-boy Trotter impersonation; it's been done to death and I would like to see them take the opportunity to do something fresh and new.

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Ned Coates, its a plot point. However, it is implied that people have descriptions to match against as they say that Vimes does look a lot like Keel. I think if this Vimes had shown up Coates would have just gone "Oh come on, he's -ing white!"

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I have to admit, this doesn't bother me all that much. If you take out one or two lines from people saying that they look alike - spoken by Lu Tze IIIRC, who hasn't even been confirmed to be in the show - and add one very small conversation where Vimes objects and is told "It doesn't matter, you're the only one who knows what he looks like", then it works fine.

Even Ned Coates still works - HE knows that Vimes isn't Keel, just as he does in the book, but he decides not say anything because Vimes is still doing a good job, just as he did in the book. So long as we get the conversation where Ned says "I know you're not Keel, but I didn't want to say anything because...." then I don't think there's any other plot holes caused by having a black Keel/white Vimes.

And to be honest, all this is still presumptive of us. If Lupine Wonse is in the show, that suggests we're starting at the Guards! Guards! story, which is years (in-universe) away from Night Watch so there could be any number of justifications and explanations made in between the two.

My brain just clicked on this. No! Nononononono! Wonse the petty beurocrat was ideal for the story. Wonse the Esk 2.0 is, I am starting to wonder if this ISN'T a Starship troopers situation!

I mean... Wonse was a wizard hopeful of a sort. He gathered together acolytes, practised a secret ritual and used magical items to do magic and summon a dragon. All it sounds like they're changing is their motivation - she wants to do magic in order to become a powerful wizard, rather than to become Patrician. No doubt there will be some Fight The Patriarchy moments thrown in there, but rightfully so - if the Patrician is a woman, and the head of the Assassins' Guild is a woman, why shouldn't women be trying to get into Unseen University, the last of the old fashioned "boys' clubs"?

It's not Discworld as we know it, but they never promised that it would be. Wonse was great for the story of Guards! Guards!... but this isn't Guards! Guards!. It has Angua in it for a start, let alone Carcer and the rest. Who is to say that she isn't going to be perfect for the new story that they want to tell?

I won't lie - I would have much preferred a faithful adaptation of the Watch, starting with drunk angry Sam Vimes meeting Lance-Constable Carrot and ending with His Grace Sir Sam Vimes reading a story-book to Young Sam with a fresh scar on his face. I'm quite prepared to give it a chance nonetheless and see if nuDiscworld can stand on its own. If you're not a purist upset specifically by the arbitrary changes, I don't think that the quality of what is there so far looks too bad.

[Corvus]

The director of the Starship Troopers movie actively loathed the book and set out to make the movie the opposite of what he felt the book stood for. The result was a cautionary tale against militaristic fascism.

He also said he only read the first two chapters (which had none of the politics that sometimes cause issues), which is hardly enough to judge the book on.

The film actually started as a story called Bug Hut at Outpost Nine and when they found out the rights to the book were available, they bought them but did little more than tweak a few names and circumstances. It really shows. My big issue with the movie really is the changes to characters - the book was written in 1959, so the memories of WWII and the horrors of it were still very fresh, and yet Heinlein included both Japanese and German characters, as well as a mix of other ethnicities and religions, something that the movie barely acknowledges. Worse, the book Juan 'Johnny' Rico was Filipino, as was Carmencita Ibanez, but both of those characters were whitewashed.

Enough on ST though.

Wonse being a female wizard hopefully is very problematic. On Discworld, men and wizards and women are witches. Esk was a special case due to very unusual circumstances. There is a vast difference between them though. The wizards are fat, argumentative, narrow-minded, pompous buffoons while the witches are smart, resourceful, strong, independent helpers of people.

[Fyraltari]

I second everything Wraith said. Thank you.

[Lemmy]

I know I'm new to Discworld and all... But the more I learn about the City Watch TV series, the less I care about it.

Random genderflips are kinda eye-rollingly cringeworthy, but not that bad by themselves... However, they are usually a sign that making a good story and staying true to the source material are not a concern for the producers, and that they don't really know or care about what makes the source material so popular.

As it's been pointed out, many of the changes completely undermine many of the themes and messages of the books (e.g.: Vetinari).

Female CMOT Dibbler really bothers me because the image of slimy car-salesman-type con-artist-entrepreneur really doesn't hold very well with a female character.

Young Vigilante Sybil just killed any interest I could've had.

At this point, it's just a random comedy show with the Discworld name slapped on it.

[PraetorDragoon]

Wonse being a female wizard hopefully is very problematic. On Discworld, men and wizards and women are witches. Esk was a special case due to very unusual circumstances. There is a vast difference between them though. The wizards are fat, argumentative, narrow-minded, pompous buffoons while the witches are smart, resourceful, strong, independent helpers of people.

And wizards only became fat buffoons after Ridicully was too hard to backstab (due to the layers of fat presumebly) As before him they were ambitious, argumentive, narrowminded and backstab-happy.

[Sapphire Guard]

I don't know a thing about most of those actors, so I'm not prepared to judge. Vetinari looks the part, and Wonse could work, it might even make sense that she knows something about magic.

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Most likely Keel will just be flashbacks to Vimes' mentor...but Carcer's in this somehow, so maybe not? Seems very likely at this stage that this will be a new story rather than an adaptation.

They could just make a joke about Keel/Vimes and move on, assuming they're adapting Night Watch at all.

In universe, everyone in the know thinks that Vimes as Keel is a spy for someone. It would seem a bit strange that the spy looks nothing like the person being impersonated, but that's the kind of thing Pratchett would have fun with.

[Rodin]

As I understand it, it's not meant to be a direct adaptation of any of the Discworld stories. It's a "crime of the week" style police procedural telling original stories in the Discworld setting, possibly with an overarching plot involving Carcer.

This is why I'm so against Keel - he's supposed to be long dead by the time of the Watch novels, and it sounds like he's going to be a recurring "retired cop giving advice to the young protege" type, which does not fit the Vimes we know at all.

Each of the changes individually isn't too bad, but they add up. Original stories? Worrisome. Young Sybil who is a vigilante? Deeply concerning. Carcer as someone who is "wronged"? Wha? Angua being a senior mentor figure to Carrot???

There's so many red flags that suggest they're going to completely disrespect the source material. It could still be great. I hope it is.

I'm just worried.

[veti]

And wizards only became fat buffoons after Ridicully was too hard to backstab (due to the layers of fat presumebly).

Ridcully is one of the very few wizards who doesn't have much of a layer of fat. Besides, if that could keep you safe, it would have been one of his predecessors who didn't predeceased.

As for the TV series - sounds like a train wreck to me. Might well be enough to kill all further interest in the whole franchise, which would be a blessing at this point. We have enough.