Reading Discworld!

[dehro]

I'd be tempted to suggest Olivia Colman. I hear good things about the latest series of The Crown.

Good actress, but...Not quite the physique I associate with the role

[Lemmy]

Forums are back! Woohoo!

So...

Jingo

This is a difficult one... I liked the book, but I didn't find it to be quite as exciting or enthralling as previous books.

There are some really good moments, though. The way politics is conducted by the Ankh-Morporkian and Klatchian authorities is very interesting, and seeing Vetinari act out his usual cunning is always great.

The highlight of the book, however, goes to the interactions and relationship between Vimes and 71-hour Ahmed. Seeing they figure out the similarities and differences in how their moral codes and the way they do their duty is the best part of the story.

At the end of the day, the story is about a very complex police chase, that gets so long and complicated as to involve a whole war.

As usual, Sir Terry Prachett's criticism of real world issues (in this case, war and prejudice) is both insightful and subtle enough to provoke thought without harming the story (Hollywood really could learn a thing or two from him, huh?).

Jingo is not my favorite City Watch book, but it's a solid story. And I can see myself revisiting it in the future.

Next is... The Last Continent... Which I already finished reading, but will post the review another day because I'm feeling lazy.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

I was going to mention that Jingo reads a lot better in the early 2000's(when I read it), when Afghanistan was in full swing and Bush was building up for Iraq or Iran, because that made the commentary much more relevant to people's lives. Then I looked it up. Jingo was written in 1997, 5 years before it would become an on-the-nose metaphor. Terry was actually magic, and nostalgia makes fools of us all.

[Lemmy]

I was going to mention that Jingo reads a lot better in the early 2000's(when I read it), when Afghanistan was in full swing and Bush was building up for Iraq or Iran, because that made the commentary much more relevant to people's lives. Then I looked it up. Jingo was written in 1997, 5 years before it would become an on-the-nose metaphor. Terry was actually magic, and nostalgia makes fools of us all.

Well... Depending on how early in the 2000s that is, I'd be a tad too young to get all the political context... And my English was already pretty good, but possibly not good enough to get most puns.

[Corvus]

I sort of agree with you about Jingo - it is kind of a middling book, not great but not bad. It has moments (especially Detritus' line while on the ship, which remains my favourite line in all of the Discworld books.)

I'd have to slightly disagree with you about the the message being subtle. This was the first book I noticed the subtlety disappearing, a trend that only gets more pronounced from here on in.

But I am really looking forward to the Last Continent, it being probably my equal favourite Discworld book.

[Rodin]

I was going to mention that Jingo reads a lot better in the early 2000's(when I read it), when Afghanistan was in full swing and Bush was building up for Iraq or Iran, because that made the commentary much more relevant to people's lives. Then I looked it up. Jingo was written in 1997, 5 years before it would become an on-the-nose metaphor. Terry was actually magic, and nostalgia makes fools of us all.

I'd say that's because "everything old is new again", as it were. The idea of the short victorious war is a pernicious one that crops up again and again throughout history. The most notable example is WWI, which many people (on all sides) thought would be over in a few months after sticking it to Johnny Foreigner. 4 years and over 20 million deaths later...

Technology and culture may change, but human nature is eternal. And Sir Pterry was amazing at showing the various absurdities that leads to.

[dehro]

(especially Detritus' line while on the ship, which remains my favourite line in all of the Discworld books.)

It's telling that I know exactly what line it is, without having to grab the book....

Jingo is actually one of my favourite books, because besides being relevant, it also feeds the history buff in me, with a clear depiction of British imperialism of old, the profoundly ignorant misconceptions and a story that tackles so many different levels of narration and topics of social interest... It's part Kipling, part Lawrence of Arabia, part spy story, all wrapped up in the story of a cop solving a crime. And, yes... It has some of the most hilarious scenes in the whole of Discworld, and cements several character traits for the cast, that we're going to see leveraged in other books.

[Wraith]

I'd have to slightly disagree with you about the the message being subtle. This was the first book I noticed the subtlety disappearing, a trend that only gets more pronounced from here on in.

This is, unfortunately, a good summary of how I feel about Jingo.

Now, don't get me wrong. I *like* Jingo - I like all of the Watch books, and Jingo has some of the best world-building in the series as well as some pertinent (and strangely haunting) observations about both human nature and the nature of the Discworld universe/time-stream. I'm quite happy to sit through 400 pages of Sam Vimes chasing a criminal across the world and then SPOILER: sort-of losing at the end /SPOILER.

But.

The underlying theme of the story isn't all that insightful or innovative. Look at Hogfather - the driving theme being that human beings are social creatures who need mythology and the 'lie' of stories in order to be human, and is portrayed through the medium of a fantastical voyage with inhuman, but very humane, characters.
Now look at Jingo - "Racism is bad and so are wars". I'm dumbing-it down a bit because I don't want to overstep the forum's rules about real-world politics, but that's the gist of it and given the events of the last 20-ish years I think we're all looking at that and going, "well, yes?"

Like NotASpiderSwarm said, the book was better when it was written because it was insightful and foreboding, but nowadays it's a bit.... quaint.
Unfortunately I feel that it's not a one-time occurrence and, with only one or two exceptions the Watch books in particular will start to get a bit preachy from now on, culminating in THUD! which includes some extremely heavy-handed, barely-metaphors about racial integration and terrorism which was written in 2005 and thus was less "Fantasy" and more like "Current Events".

Still; we've yet got Carpe Jugulum, The Truth, Night Watch and Going Postal to come, which are some of my personal favourites, so Jingo is far from its "jumping the shark" moment

[Corvus]

Still; we've yet got Carpe Jugulum, The Truth, Night Watch and Going Postal to come, which are some of my personal favourites, so Jingo is far from its "jumping the shark" moment

I don't think Discworld ever really jumps the shark, more that Jingo marked the start of a tonal shift in style. Everyone has a different opinion, but to me The Last Continent marks the end of the classic golden age of Discworld. After that the toanl shift becomes more pronounced. Which sin't to say that there aren't good books later on, only that they are different in style, especially in terms of the message. Jingo isn't the only book that preaches about the evils of racism, but it is less heavy-handed than a later book. You also just have to look at the difference between Equal Rites and another one later on that has sexism as its central theme - the later one is very heavy-handed about it.

[BisectedBrioche]

To be honest, I never found anything in Discworld that heavy handed. All the metaphors fit within the world building, and even the later political commentary can easily pass as a deconstruction of classic fantasy tropes by way of gesturing to how such things would play out in the real world.

[Lemmy]

I'd have to slightly disagree with you about the the message being subtle. This was the first book I noticed the subtlety disappearing, a trend that only gets more pronounced from here on in.

I suppose "subtle" isn't the right word... Maybe... "Not lopsided". It never felt like only one side was analyzed or criticized, or that PTerry was trying to make the reader feel guilty or blame their fellow man (well, except scrupulousness politicians, I suppose). He's more commenting on morally reprehensible deeds of the past, why they are morally reprehensible and what we can learn from them.

Compared to today's all too common "if you are [X], you're bad and should feel bad!" kind of message present in so much of media, / usually portraying [X] as absolutely hyperbolic strawmen, "Jingo" is still pretty subtle.

[Rodin]

To be honest, I never found anything in Discworld that heavy handed. All the metaphors fit within the world building, and even the later political commentary can easily pass as a deconstruction of classic fantasy tropes by way of gesturing to how such things would play out in the real world.

The latter third of his catalogue is definitely heavy-handed. I'd say everything from Monstrous Regiment on. I still love the books, but that was the first dip in quality for me and the end of the golden age that started with Reaper Man. I never understood Moist's popularity and I felt that the quality dropped precipitiously from his introduction onwards. Yes, that includes Going Postal.

[Sapphire Guard]

I found that the less I understood the message behind a book, the more I enjoyed it.

[farothel]

I actually loved the quotes from General Tacticus' book that Sam Vimes reads.

Spoiler

Show

some examples:
What if the enemy is in an impregnable fortress: see that he remains there
What if the enemy has superiority in men, weapons and position: don't have a battle.

Still cracks me up every time I read them.

[Kato]

I think subtlety is always somewhat subjective, unless you get really bashed over the head with it. IMO Pratchett has always (most often) been pretty direct in a good way. I guess some has been more thinly veiled than others but still.

If anything, the only serious(ish) issue I had was some parts in Raising Steam but nobody is perfect.

[veti]

He's more commenting on morally reprehensible deeds of the past, why they are morally reprehensible and what we can learn from them.

I'm in the camp of those who don't rate Jingo that highly. It seems to me that the political insight is severely lacking - it says that these things are reprehensible, yes, but it makes no attempt to understand why people did them anyway.

You might say "what's to understand?", but then you're dehumanising people just as much as the people being critiqued here.

So I don't think it really has much to say about "what we can learn". Just "war is bad, m'kay?"

As for the comedy, there are some good lines - but also the unforgivable spectacle of Vetinari going undercover with Nobby and Colon. That whole episode simply reeks.

[Silverraptor]

Spoiler: Boruto Episode 151

Show

Alright, who here was thinking the entire time, when Boruto had to get past the big bads jutsu that reflected all attacks he "detected", "Just make the rasengan invisible. Put your lightning chakra into it and make it disappear. Come on, it worked against a godlike entity that literally absorbs all chakra and jutsu he detected and went toe-to-toe with your dad and idol. Surely this lowly punk you could immediately knock out with an invisible rasengan..."

I mean, come on! Are the show writers trying to intentionally forget Boruto's special attributes and abilities?!

[Lemmy]

I never knew Boruto was a Discworld character...

OTOH. This does remind me that I haven't posted my reviews in a while... I thin I'm 2 books late now. oO

[dehro]

I never knew Boruto was a Discworld character...

OTOH. This does remind me that I haven't posted my reviews in a while... I thin I'm 2 books late now. oO

That will not do, good sir!

[jayem]

I sort of agree with you about Jingo - it is kind of a middling book, not great but not bad. It has moments (especially Detritus' line while on the ship, which remains my favourite line in all of the Discworld books.)

I'd have to slightly disagree with you about the the message being subtle. This was the first book I noticed the subtlety disappearing, a trend that only gets more pronounced from here on in.

But I am really looking forward to the Last Continent, it being probably my equal favourite Discworld book.

It definitely feels a phase change point, Small God's got me as I could identify both with Vorbis and Brutha. Similarly in Men at Arm's and Equal Rites you get real world issues but twisted backward. There was a message there but it pointed all directions.
Jingo, as metaphor pretty much reads straight. But did look back/ahead on us, even 'they' are people and do the right thing.
Still good stories for a while,but differently good.
__
The one thing that I was slow on, to realise LoQ was offering a cake, rather than Macaroon being a Disc way of saying 'fine'.

[Aedilred]

I have to say that Jingo is one of my absolute favourite Discworld books. It's certainly one of those I've re-read the most, along with Hogfather and possibly Night Watch and The Truth.

Putting my finger on exactly why is tricky. Part of it is that the resolution makes sense without OTT magic shenanigans (also a characteristic of the others noted above*). Part of it is the satire, which may be less subtle than in some of the earlier books**, but it doesn't lack impact: an axe bites just as deeply as a scalpel, if not moreso. And it still packs an unexpected punch in parts: the revelation that the Klatchians framed themselves for a crime so as to dispel Vimes's suspicions, counting on his overthinking his own prejudice, was quite something the first couple of times I read it.

Plus it's just straightforwardly funny without, for the most part, resorting to silly names or some of the cheaper laughs one gets in, say, Making Money. Yes, Colon and Nobby hardly provide highbrow humour but even there it earns its punchlines.

It may be that the theme just pushes my buttons to an unusual extent (something else it has in common with the other three above). I probably read it in the early 2000s when some of this stuff seemed much more relevant than perhaps it now does - although I think really the relevance is universal up to a point.

Maybe, on reflection, this is the tipping-point where Pterry started to fall in love with Vetinari a bit too much and give him too much of the spotlight. Vetinari is a great character but he works better in small doses. His overexposure is to my mind one of the major problems with some of the later books. Then again, this came before The Truth where Vetinari was handled well. So maybe not.

Post-Jingo we also got The Fifth Elephant (a better gender-equality novel than Equal Rites, and that wasn't even the main thrust of it), Carpe Jugulum - which really you're either going to love or hate - and Thief of Time which is, along with Small Gods, probably the cleverest entry in the series.

For me the series' turning point is really Night Watch. There is still humour there but in lesser quantities: the plot is more serious and serialised: you need to know the setting and the characters, or at least some of them, to understand what's going on. It works, because it somehow manages to deliver some real heft: it feels like something important. New characters are well drawn without, for the most part, overstatement: Ned Coates in particular has stuck with me for years.

Thereafter though the series seemed to enter an unreversed decline. Monstrous Regiment was alright but lost the plot at the end. Going Postal has a very good book in there somewhere but needed a better edit. Thud! was a clumsier re-tread of ground already covered in Men at Arms, Fifth Elephant and Jingo, and none of the other four*** are likely to trouble a "best of" list.

*Although there is a bit of it in Hogfather. My one real criticism there is that it doesn't quite know when to stop and climaxes in the wrong place(s).
**Although really, I'm not sure many of the earlier books were that subtle either. The parodies in Wyrd Sisters, Maskerade, Moving Pictures, Soul Music etc. were pretty hard to miss. And the books were none the worse for that.
***Of the adult books, that is. I've not read the children's/YA books.

[Mightymosy]

So i read Lords and Ladies, after a pause reading Dresden files, and wow was I disappointed :-(

My favourite character in Discworld is probably Granny Weathervax, so i really was happy starting the book, realising it is a witches story.
Never had been so disappointed with discworld before....
Maybe a culture shock after delving through Dresden Files?

I just couldnt figure out what that book was about, and why I should keep turning pages.
Honestly, without author credit and compulsion to finish any book i start I might have bailed. No disrespect, but for me Lords and Ladies was just a mess.

Anyone who likes that book card to elaborate what they think is so good about it?


I read Eric couple days later (didnt really want to, after the disappointmemt, but had nothing else), and that was WAY better. It hooked me since page 1.
And was good till the finale.
Then a city watch one where i dont know the english title (they go after some criminal who shoots people with some mysterious device).
Again, great book.
Now i am a third into Feet of Clay and like that as well.

Just weird....my favourite book so far is probably Witches Abroad, it surprised me really that I disliked a Witches Book so much.
Am I the only one or is someone feeling similar?

[paddyfool]

So i read Lords and Ladies, after a pause reading Dresden files, and wow was I disappointed :-(

My favourite character in Discworld is probably Granny Weathervax, so i really was happy starting the book, realising it is a witches story.
Never had been so disappointed with discworld before....
Maybe a culture shock after delving through Dresden Files?

I just couldnt figure out what that book was about, and why I should keep turning pages.
Honestly, without author credit and compulsion to finish any book i start I might have bailed. No disrespect, but for me Lords and Ladies was just a mess.

Anyone who likes that book card to elaborate what they think is so good about it?

Were you familiar with the generally very English cultural touchstones this was satirising?(Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream; various other myths, fairy tales; morris dancing; standing stones; general rural southern England life; some of the daft art drawn of Boadicea...) Without those, it'd be hard to get some of the jokes and plot. Also the power bump that Granny Weatherwax got in this book was a little disconcerting.

In any case, I'm willing to bet you might like the next Witches book (Masquerade) more.

Then a city watch one where i dont know the english title (they go after some criminal who shoots people with some mysterious device).

Men at Arms. One of my favourites

[Eldan]

Really. Wow. It is definitely in my top ten discworld books. Probably top five. I like Pratchett's takes on mythology, I like his witches and I especially like any good take on the Fair Folk, so this book has pretty much everything I want.

[Wraith]

Today, April 28th, would have been Pterry's 72nd birthday. This evening I will have a nostalgic read through The Last Hero as it feels apt to do so, and I hope you'll all join me

With that being said, the old man isn't out of surprises yet. Following an announcement earlier today, we now know why Rhianna Pratchett has apparently been so cold towards The Watch as a reinterpretation of the novel series; it's because she is the Co-director of a company called Narrativia who are about to embark upon bringing faithful adaptations of the Discworld to the screen.

It's long been in the works and put off for various reasons but... wow! However The Watch turns out, I can't help but feel that this is what everyone was originally asking for.

[Corvus]

Narrativia was initially involved with The Watch I believe, but given the ...deviations... made to the whole thing, they pulled out. The first photos from the show have been released and going from them it is little wonder. I'm lost for words really.

[Fyraltari]

Narrativia was initially involved with The Watch I believe, but given the ...deviations... made to the whole thing, they pulled out. The first photos from the show have been released and going from them it is little wonder. I'm lost for words really.

Carrot and Vimes are on point, but is that a denim jacket?

[Aedilred]

Of the "mini-series" that run throughout the books (i.e. Rincewind, Death, Witches, City Watch, Moist) I think the witches series is consistently the highest-quality, especially if you discount Equal Rites as one of the difficult opening three books that get a pass.

I think Lords and Ladies might be my favourite of them, although I'm hard-pressed to put my finger on exactly why. I think it is, as mentioned above, quite a British book, what with the Morris Dancing, the understated Lancre setting more foregrounded than in most of the other witches novels and so on. I like the creeping sense of dread that pervades the early part of the book as Granny and Nanny become concerned about what's going on. I like the take on the elves, both ancient and fresh simultaneously, and more subversive than the approach to most other fantasy staples. I like the development of Margat as a character. I like the relationship between Granny and Ridcully (and the link it creates between the otherwise isolated Lancre setting and Ankh-Morpork). I like the elf king.

I don't like Oggham quite so much. Yes, it's an obvious pun, but also a bit much even for Discworld.

If I had a major criticism of it it would be that the elves when they finally arrive aren't really present for long enough, or at least not quite long enough before their weaknesses become apparent, so some of the menace is lost.

[Aedilred]

Narrativia was initially involved with The Watch I believe, but given the ...deviations... made to the whole thing, they pulled out. The first photos from the show have been released and going from them it is little wonder. I'm lost for words really.

So wait, Cheery Littlebottom is non-binary? That seems to be... not so much missing the point of the character, because that kind of is the point of the character, but missing the point of satire.

Surely the whole point is that by taking something that we culturally take for granted (recognition of two genders) and imposing that on a society which thinks differently (only recognising one, and its being a fight to get the second recognised) it exposes the prejudices and difficulties in our own society. That's... kind of how the whole thing works.

By changing the character so that it's the same as in the situation you're parodying, you're doing nothing to shine a light on or dismantle the real-life prejudices you're meant to be challenging, except by the mere fact of including such a character in the first place.

What else are they up for? How about instead of goblins in Snuff, we just have black people? That's what it's about, right?

[Fyraltari]

So wait, Cheery Littlebottom is non-binary? That seems to be... not so much missing the point of the character, because that kind of is the point of the character, but missing the point of satire.

Surely the whole point is that by taking something that we culturally take for granted (recognition of two genders) and imposing that on a society which thinks differently (only recognising one, and its being a fight to get the second recognised) it exposes the prejudices and difficulties in our own society. That's... kind of how the whole thing works.

By changing the character so that it's the same as in the situation you're parodying, you're doing nothing to shine a light on or dismantle the real-life prejudices you're meant to be challenging, except by the mere fact of including such a character in the first place.

What else are they up for? How about instead of goblins in Snuff, we just have black people? That's what it's about, right?

Devil's advocate: this article isn't about explaining how the dwarfs' society works and the finer points of the allegory. Cheery is an allegory for LGBTQ people in general and non-binary in particular so calling that character "non-binary" in a quick run-down of the cast makes perfect sense.