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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Can someone advise me on multiclassing rules for gestalt characters?


    I sent an email to my DM: (i dmed the last time, and hes dming now)
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    ..(censored)...FYI, any thing i suggest to you i will probably use in my own campaign if its relevant, just so u know im not thinking crap up, i plan to use it.

    The xp penalties for multiclassing are found on page 60 pf the phb btw. Do note that it was made for 1 class/level.
    Summarized: Every class, besides your favored class, must be within 1 level of any other class. Failing which, you take a -20% xp penalty for every level difference beyond 1.
    Example: (assuming non-gestalt character level progression)
    4ftr/3bard(lv7) = ok
    5ftr/3bard(lv8) = -20% xp
    6ftr/3bard(lv9) = -40% xp
    Since we need to choose 2 classes for gestalt as opposed to only 1 class each level, and if one of them isn't the favoured class, the said player is stuck with that combo. What im thinking is to add another favoured class to your character since the original one was made for 1 class/lv, and gestalt does 2 class/lv.

    Also, there is another issue to consider. If someone takes a prestige class(which alone is immune to multiclassing effects), then their level progression would look like:
    4ftr/4bard(lv4) = ok
    5ftr/4bard/1Duelist(lv5) = ok
    6ftr/4bard/2Duelist(lv6) = -20% xp penalty
    Which makes the person have a -20% xp penalty. And a person generally would not meet the restrictions of 2 prestige classes all the time. Again, the above suggestion would solve this problem, but since prestige classes are immune to multiclassing, you may want to add to the above, that any classes taken with the prestige class be not considered(not immune) when counting multiclassing penalties. When i say not considered, i mean that when a person stops prestige classing, they can continue with the non-prestige leveling without penalties.
    Example without the non-consideration idea:
    4ftr/4bard(lv4) = ok
    5ftr/4bard/1Duelist(lv5) = ok
    6ftr/4bard/2Duelist(lv6) = -20% xp penalty
    7ftr/5bard/2Duelist(lv7) = -20% xp penalty for the rest of his life!
    So if u don't consider the 5th and 6th level of fighter which is taken when the character took duelist, then it would be calculated as if it was 5ftr/5bard which also nicely equalize the 2 class levels (like normal gestalt levels).

    FYI, prestige classes is given immunity to multiclassing cos no character can take prestige classes until around lv 5, and if they do, they would look like:
    5ftr/(lv5) = ok
    5ftr/1Duelist(lv6) = -100% xp penalty. wth?
    5ftr/2Duelist(lv7) = Doesn't matter, he wont reach lv 7.
    So WotC decided to make prestige classes immune to multiclassing.

    Just a FYI:
    http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13710310
    (in post #17 and #25)
    no one seems to disagree that multiclassing is ignored by some. Other than that, i cant find anything on gestalt multiclassing in the D&D forums worth noting. I my self may either heavily modify multiclassing (more than above btw) or not use it.


    Im wanting to know what your opinions are on:
    a) the thread title, from experience or otherwise
    b) the email suggestion i sent.

    Ps, forgive any spelling mistakes, i wrote the email up in 20 mins.
    Ps2. hes new to d&d, which accounts for lots of explanations. Not to mention hes been buzy so i decided to make things more clearer.
    Last edited by Zavia/GenX; 2007-09-11 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Each side of the gestalt should be treated differently, as separate class progressions. That is Fighter 6 // Wizard 3 / Rogue 3 doesn't have class levels 6/3/3 for multiclassing rules, it has two separate progressions: 6 and 3/3.

    Now, I've never seen a ruling on what happens if either side of the gestalt takes a MC penalty... does the entire character take the XP penalty? Is the penalty halved for having only one side out of balance? Or does the penalty only apply to one side, resulting in uneven leveling?
    Last edited by Duke of URL; 2007-09-11 at 09:04 AM.


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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    And it's for the reasons mentioned above by the Duke that most people just through multiclassing penalties out the window in gestalt games. Of course, a lot of people just don't deal with them in regular games either.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavia/GenX View Post
    Summarized: Every class, besides your favored class, must be within 1 level of any other class. Failing which, you take a -20% xp penalty for every level difference beyond 1.
    Example: (assuming non-gestalt character level progression)
    4ftr/3bard(lv7) = ok
    5ftr/3bard(lv8) = -20% xp
    6ftr/3bard(lv9) = -40% xp
    You've got that wrong. The penalty is 20% for each pair of classes that is too far apart, not for each level that one class is off. Your fighter 6/bard 3 has a 20% xp penalty for just a single pair of classes too far apart. A fighter 3/bard 1/rogue 1/cleric 1 would have a 60% xp penalty, assuming none of those is his favored class, because he has three different classes that are each more than one level different from his fighter level.

    PrCs were exempted from the penalty because they are supposed to be further specialization within an area, while the multiclass penalty is supposed to represent trying to generalize too much.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    In my gaming group, multi-classing and prestige classing in a gestalt game is highly frowned upon (though not illegal). Since you're gestalt, you're already pretty darn powerful with a wide range of abilities. There's no reason to push it further, unless everyone else in your party is highly optimized.

    Having said that, it looks like you're nerfing yourself pretty badly by multi-classing with Bard. There's no reason to dip into the Bard class.

    Perhaps Bard 20 and Fighter 6/Duelist 10/Whatever 4 would be a decent gestalt combo though. You'd have high AC, versatile Skills and spells, Bard buffs, and some bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    I've never heard of PrCs in general being a problem for gestalt... only that 1) PrCs that offer dual advancement (arcane trickster, mystic theurge, etc.) should either be disallowed, and 2) only one side of the gestalt should be allowed to advance a PrC at a time.


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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Even those don't cause too many problems if the two sides of the Gestalt aren't allowed to interact with each other. For instance, a Hexblade//Sorcerer who wants to take levels in Dragon Disciple could only do so once one side of the build and the character's feats (not bonus feats from the other side) allow the character to qualify. Once they qualify, the advancement granted from Dragon Disciple only affects the spells of the qualifying class.

    One of my players played a completely ridiculous character in the attempt to powergame. He used a Shugenja 4/Wilder 4/Psychic Theurge//Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer and was horribly outshone by another player's Swashbuckler//Egoist that didn't use any multiclassing.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Weasel View Post
    Even those don't cause too many problems if the two sides of the Gestalt aren't allowed to interact with each other. For instance, a Hexblade//Sorcerer who wants to take levels in Dragon Disciple could only do so once one side of the build and the character's feats (not bonus feats from the other side) allow the character to qualify. Once they qualify, the advancement granted from Dragon Disciple only affects the spells of the qualifying class.
    You know, Dragon Disciple seems like a really great idea for a Gestalt PC. It's core, it grants some useful but not broken abilities (wings, blindsense, extra attacks from natural weapons, stat and AC bonuses), and it has 2 good saves and d12 hit dice. It's main weakness is mediocre BAB, but this is easily overcome with Gestalt. Maybe a Beguiler/Dragon Disciple + Warblade? Certainly it couldn't compete with full casters, but it'd be a respectable meat shield.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Yeah. The main problem with Dragon Disciples is that a lot of players try to apply the bonus spells to the opposite side of the build. As long as that's kept in check, they're pretty nice.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    You've got that wrong. The penalty is 20% for each pair of classes that is too far apart, not for each level that one class is off. Your fighter 6/bard 3 has a 20% xp penalty for just a single pair of classes too far apart. A fighter 3/bard 1/rogue 1/cleric 1 would have a 60% xp penalty, assuming none of those is his favored class, because he has three different classes that are each more than one level different from his fighter level.

    PrCs were exempted from the penalty because they are supposed to be further specialization within an area, while the multiclass penalty is supposed to represent trying to generalize too much.
    I think its important to note for the newbs, that in your example if the character had fighter or any as his favored class, the penalty would drop from 60% to 0%, since the fighter levels don't count for the purposes of determining a muliticlass penalty.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Weasel View Post
    Yeah. The main problem with Dragon Disciples is that a lot of players try to apply the bonus spells to the opposite side of the build. As long as that's kept in check, they're pretty nice.
    They've got that option:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Bonus Spells

    Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast.

    If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each bonus spell as it is gained. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted.
    Personally, I haven't had a problem with this. Granted, it could theoretically be one.

    The thing is, right now dragon disciple is only taken by people who like the fluff, the crunch just doesn't work for a lot of people, it's got a bit of good and a lot of meh.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    They've got that option:



    Personally, I haven't had a problem with this. Granted, it could theoretically be one.

    The thing is, right now dragon disciple is only taken by people who like the fluff, the crunch just doesn't work for a lot of people, it's got a bit of good and a lot of meh.
    The point is that that description needs to be treated differently based on gestalt ruling. You can only apply those bonus spells to a caster on the side of the gestalt taking Dragon Disciple levels.

    The two sides of the gestalt are fundamentally two different characters. They just happen to have the same skill points/HP/BAB and feats. Class abilities on one side can not qualify one for, or benefit from, PrCs on the other.
    Last edited by Kaelik; 2007-09-11 at 04:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    The point is that that description needs to be treated differently based on gestalt ruling. You can only apply those bonus spells to a caster on the side of the gestalt taking Dragon Disciple levels.

    The two sides of the gestalt are fundamentally two different characters. They just happen to have the same skill points/HP/BAB and feats. Class abilities on one side can not qualify one for, or benefit from, PrCs on the other.
    That's not how the rules are presented and that's not how I or any game I've been part of have played it. Your interpretation is usable, but it's not the only way of doing it, and it's not the way it's presented in unearthed arcana.

    You choose two classes and combine the abilities. That's the basic idea of gestalt. If you're a fighter//wizard, you're one character with a d10 hit die, full BAB, and spellcasting.

    Prestige classes and feats and all that have prerequisites. If you have all of those things, as a character, it does not matter one Iota which 'progression' it comes from, the sides/progression idea is an abstraction which makes character creation easier, it is by no means a limiter.
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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    I hate to ask the noob question, but whats a gestalt? I know im not exactly a veteran to this whole thing but it seems like i missed something big.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    Prestige classes and feats and all that have prerequisites. If you have all of those things, as a character, it does not matter one Iota which 'progression' it comes from, the sides/progression idea is an abstraction which makes character creation easier, it is by no means a limiter.
    Except that that Wizards specifically stated that a Wizard//Cleric can not take Mystic Theurge. Why? Because you don't qualify using both sides.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium
    You choose two classes and combine the abilities. That's the basic idea of gestalt. If you're a fighter//wizard, you're one character with a d10 hit die, full BAB, and spellcasting.
    That still is what happens, but with some classes it's blatantly abusive like the Mystic Theurge example that's usually cited with Cleric CL30 at level 20. The alternatives usually are outright bans on Arcane Trickster/Arcane Heirophant-type classes or allowing them with restrictions to only applying bonuses to one side of the build.

    Your interpretation is usable, but it's not the only way of doing it, and it's not the way it's presented in unearthed arcana.
    Allowing the Dragon Disciple at all is against RAW as it falls into Multiple-Class-Simultaneously category of prestige classes. It is however not an unreasonable class for a DM to allow if it is progressing an already Fighter/Sorcerer side of a character.

    And Chaos Bringer, gestalt is a variant where a character advances in two classes simultaneously.
    Last edited by Dr. Weasel; 2007-09-11 at 05:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    Except that that Wizards specifically stated that a Wizard//Cleric can not take Mystic Theurge. Why? Because you don't qualify using both sides.
    No, because it's massively overpowered. It unbalances the game, they've stated that's why they don't recommend you let it in the game (not a hard and fast rule, just a recommendation).

    There is NOTHING stating that PCs must qualify for prestige classes using only one side.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    i do agree with the fact that if your gestalt character has the abilities from any class to get into a prestige class. Taking 2 prestige classes... mmm i think i somewhat agree on 1 prestige class/lv only.


    @Duke of URL
    could you explain your 2nd post in more detail?

    The example i showed is just examples, i randomly picked them. I was originally planning a Swordsage/Warblade character, but now after some changes to my friend's character classes, im going towards rogue/fighter. Am considering getting some into swashbuckler (dm suggested) and later into the exotic weapon master(?) prestige class if i go the spiked chain/Kusari-gama build. Im undecided on this vs the normal TWF btw, but thats another story, and possibly another thread later.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Bringer View Post
    I hate to ask the noob question, but whats a gestalt? I know im not exactly a veteran to this whole thing but it seems like i missed something big.
    Gestalt is an alternate leveling system where each level you get to choose 2 classes and take the best attributes of both. So if you chose rogue and fighter you would get the Fighter's BAB, the rogue's skill points, fighter's HD, etc.

    It's usually only used for high-powered campaigns where you would normally expect a lot of TPK's.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavia/GenX View Post
    @Duke of URL
    could you explain your 2nd post in more detail?

    The example i showed is just examples, i randomly picked them. I was originally planning a Swordsage/Warblade character, but now after some changes to my friend's character classes, im going towards rogue/fighter. Am considering getting some into swashbuckler (dm suggested) and later into the exotic weapon master(?) prestige class if i go the spiked chain/Kusari-gama build. Im undecided on this vs the normal TWF btw, but thats another story, and possibly another thread later.
    My 2nd post or the second post in the thread, which is mine?

    I'll cover both, just to be thorough.

    The most common way of looking at a gestalt character is if (s)he has two completely separate progression, typically noted as (progression A) // (progression B), where the double-slash indicates the split between the two "sides" of the gestalt. So a 6th level character could be Fighter 4 / Ranger 2 // Rogue 3 / Wizard 3 -- each "side" adds up to 6 levels, but we're dealing with two separate progressions here Fighter 4 / Ranger 2, and separately Rogue 3 / Wizard 3. If neither Fighter nor Ranger were the character's race's favored class, the build would in theory have a multiclassing XP penalty on the "A" side. (And so we come full-circle back to the original subject question...)

    As far as PrCs are concerned, the normal guidelines are to ban PrCs with "dual advancement", such as Arcane Trickster or Mystic Theurge, which advance two classes simultaneously; the alternative is to allow them, but that it counts as both the "A" and "B" class for that level.

    For other PrCs, the only guideline out there is to not allow the "A" and "B" side to take PrC levels at the same time... honestly, I'm not sure why, because gestalt is supposed to be a high-powered variant. Since it's only a guideline/recommendation, your DM can waive it.

    So, if in the previous example, at 7th level, the character tries for Dervish // Arcane Trickster, (s)he is violating both guidelines.

    @All -- there's a lot of differing opinions here... maybe we should take this homebrew and work out a more complete and consistent set of gestalt guidelines.


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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    @All -- there's a lot of differing opinions here... maybe we should take this homebrew and work out a more complete and consistent set of gestalt guidelines.
    Do-able. I'll start it out, the best way to do it is just have 'sub-variants' describing the possible ways of doing things, and the pros and cons of such.

    Here in the homebrew section.

    If you've got a beef, might as well bring it there.
    Last edited by Zincorium; 2007-09-12 at 07:38 AM.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    yay, hopefully my dm will agree on one of them when hes free to see em next week (hes bz programming stuff for his college and dad this week)

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by enderrocksonall View Post
    Gestalt is an alternate leveling system where each level you get to choose 2 classes and take the best attributes of both. So if you chose rogue and fighter you would get the Fighter's BAB, the rogue's skill points, fighter's HD, etc.
    Thanks for the explaination. Sounds like a fun character to build.
    Last edited by Chaos Bringer; 2007-09-12 at 10:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Bringer View Post
    Thanks for the explaination. Sounds like a fun character to build.
    It's definitely fun, but its also very difficult.

    A strong gestalt combination can make you a super hero. This is particularly true if you use powerful prestige classes. Off the top of my head, a Druid 20 + Rogue 10/Warhulk 10.

    But a bad gestalt combination is essentially no stronger then a optimized single class PC. For example, a Fighter 20 + Barbarian 20 may sound like a great idea, but he's still worse then a regular Cleric 20 that's played well.

    Therefore, the normal class imbalances that occur in almost every party can be even huger and more game breaking in a gestalt game.

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    Default Re: Multiclassing rules with Gestalt

    the other thread doesnt seem to be moving much...

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