Relating hero power levels and game systems

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think a good question to ask when assessing a game system is "what kind of hero does this game want you to play?" Not morality (anti-heroes, villains, knights in shining armor), although that's important. Here I'm specifically looking at power levels.

I've identified 5 that I think cover most of the spectrum. Within these 5 are numberless sub-categories and facets, so this isn't designed to be exhaustive, merely informative. These are designed to be ranges rather than discrete tiers--a very high T0 might end up closer to a low T1 than to a low T0.

I'd like examples of each of these types from various media/games/etc as well as games that, in your opinion, have this as their target level. Or you can tell me that I'm all wrong about this. That works too.

Type 0 Heroes: The Everyman
These heroes have no special powers. No destiny, no secrets hidden in their blood. They're just average people who end up in unusual situations. They don't have plot armor either--they must obey all the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology. If they get in lethal combat, it tends to be nasty, brutal, and *short*.
Examples: Ash (Evil Dead 1)
Game Systems: Call of Cthullu

Type 1 Heroes: The Action Hero
These are a step above the Everyman on the power scale. While they may not have superpowers in-universe, they certainly come with a large helping of plot armor. They're basically humans, taken to the dramatic limit while still maintaining a modicum of realism. Unlike the Type 0 heroes, the Action Hero gets in lots of fights. Wounds are less disabling than they should be, and his aim is super good. He tends to mow over ranks of mooks, then struggle with the "serious" threats. An Action Hero can die, but it's usually in a big dramatic moment. His foes (the real villains) can and do die, often in spades.
Examples: Black Widow (MCU), John McClane (Die Hard), etc
Game Systems: low-level 5e D&D

Type 2 Heroes: "grounded" superheroes
These heroes have powers (or special equipment/training that mimics powers). But they're still grounded, still vulnerable. No throwing mountains, no breaking planets, no time travel shenanigans. Plenty of plot armor and unnatural resilience, however (even if that isn't an official power). Oddly enough, this all makes Type 2 combat *less* lethal than Type 1 or Type 0 combat, despite the much greater power levels involved. Only mooks die; heroes and villains always live to fight again, even if there's no plausible way they should have. But enough mooks can make a hero fail his mission, so they're still useful. A Type 1 can play with a Type 2, although they have to work hard to catch up.
Examples: The early Avengers (MCU), most Jedi Knights (Star Wars)
Game Systems: low-level 4e D&D, mid/high level 5e D&D, mid-power Vampire

Type 3 Heroes: Superheroes unchained
These heroes have powers. Lots of powers. They're often only vulnerable to very specific things. They still tend to play at the smaller scale, only getting up to reality-rewriting games occasionally. Mooks might as well not exist--they can't pose any threat at all. Only the clashes between Type 3 characters matter at the plot level. This level presents a discontinuity--nothing below Type 3 really matters to a Type 3 except as a McGuffin. When a Type 3 dies, it's a world-shaking event. And rarely lasts.
Examples: Superman
Game Systems: high-level 4e D&D, Exalted 2e?, most high level 3e D&D

Type 4 Heroes: Mythic Heroes/Shonen Protagonists at full power
These heroes have *all* the power. Their very act of powering up (which usually takes a while) tends to be destructive to the landscape. They tank blows that level mountains; their counter-punches depopulate worlds. Death is a speedbump for these types. They casually rewrite reality, including time-travel. The challenges they face aren't from their foes (not directly anyway)--they're threats to those they care about or to ideals they champion.
Examples: Gilgamesh (Sumerian legends)
Game Systems: Epic-level 3e D&D?

[Ignimortis]

I think there are tier 0.5 and tier 1.5, at least. Possibly tier 2.5, too. There are lots of things that don't exactly fall into tier 3 or tier 2, but are still greater than "action hero" or "street-level superhero".

Low-level D&D (AD&D and 3.5) are 0.5, as are starting Vampire the Masquerade characters.

Vampires from VtM can evolve into tier 1 or even tier 2, if you build for it. My primary character has ripped through enough punks with AK-74s to know that Rambo isn't catching up to me any time soon.

Mid-level 3.5e/PF are good tier 2s, and they tend to escalate to tier 3 or tier 4 at higher levels depending on the optimization level. Most level 20 characters in 3.5/PF are tier 3s on your scale, unless they're completely mundane, in which case they're probably 2.5 or 3 depending on equipment.

However, I do disagree with ranking 5e's higher levels as tier 3. Bounded accuracy prevents that. You are never a Solar Exalted in 5e, unless your DM breaks the game's assumptions entirely, at which point you're not playing 5e. At best you're 2.5 with some reality warping on the side because magic - you still lose to a large army of mundane warriors in a direct fight, though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think there are tier 0.5 and tier 1.5, at least. Possibly tier 2.5, too. There are lots of things that don't exactly fall into tier 3 or tier 2, but are still greater than "action hero" or "street-level superhero".

Low-level D&D (AD&D and 3.5) are 0.5, as are starting Vampire the Masquerade characters.

Vampires from VtM can evolve into tier 1 or even tier 2, if you build for it. My primary character has ripped through enough punks with AK-74s to know that Rambo isn't catching up to me any time soon.

Mid-level 3.5e/PF are good tier 2s, and they tend to escalate to tier 3 or tier 4 at higher levels depending on the optimization level. Most level 20 characters in 3.5/PF are tier 3s on your scale, unless they're completely mundane, in which case they're probably 2.5 or 3 depending on equipment.

However, I do disagree with ranking 5e's higher levels as tier 3. Bounded accuracy prevents that. You are never a Solar Exalted in 5e, unless your DM breaks the game's assumptions entirely, at which point you're not playing 5e. At best you're 2.5 with some reality warping on the side because magic - you still lose to a large army of mundane warriors in a direct fight, though.

You're right. I had thought of these as more sign-posts on a continuous spectrum, rather than hard tiers. The boundaries are fuzzy, especially at the low end of the scale. There's a discontinuity around T3-ish though.

I updated the high-power 5e part since you have a good point. They get to the upper range of type 2, but can't really hang with type 3 and are vulnerable to enough mooks.

From what I know of the WH40K games, my impression is that Guardsmen are in the T0 range, while Space Marines hang in the T2/T3 range and high-end psykers hang at T4 until they blow up messily/turn into/get eaten by daemons.

[Anonymouswizard]

We're missing the 'realistic superhero'.

[I]Powers exist, and can be strong, but they take time and effort. In addition when your powers don't make you tougher or focus on combat you're about as vulnerable as the everyman. Powers are also likely limited, and may have a theme, and

Examples: everybody in Switchflipped, Bob from The Laundry Files
Systems: Unknown Armies, low points value GURPS games

Call it 0X, because it's essentially 0+superpowers.

[Xuc Xac]

I think you should split "character ability", "action stakes", and "setting danger" into separate rankings.

Iron Man has roughly the same capabilities in every movie he's in, but sometimes he's just fighting to save his company and protect his IP. Other times, he's fighting a full scale alien invasion.

Spider-Man and Daredevil are a couple of acrobatic guys who swing around New York fighting crime. Spidey mostly fights colorful themed villains who do property damage and zap him with various less-than-lethal "blasters" while trying to steal macguffins or fat sacks of loot. Daredevil fights murderous guys with regular "shoot to kill" guns.

Character ability : How much can characters do?
0 "Fish out of water" everyman: The character is a normal everyman with no especially useful skills. An accountant trying to survive in the zombie apocalypse.
1 "In their element" competent: Normal people with relevant and useful training. A marine with a rifle trying to survive in the zombie apocalypse.
2 Hyper competent normal: The character is a normal human with a peak level of relevant training. Elite special forces casually strolling through the zombie apocalypse... Until the carcass golem shows up!
3 Minor Super: The character has powers and gear more effective than regular equipment and training. If Daredevil's cane was really possible to build with the limited technical skills and budget of a blind lawyer, then SWAT teams would carry black tacti-cool versions as nightsticks.
4 Major Super: The character is a walking force of nature. They probably don't know the upper limit of their powers because they've never needed to push themselves that far on Earth. Magneto never encounters enough metal in one place to say "that's too much to lift".
5 Cosmic Super: The character is effectively a god. Dr. Manhattan does whatever he wants.

Action stakes:
0 Personal: I can't believe I forgot my date with Mary Jane! She's going to be so mad at me.
1 Local: A crooked real estate developer is trying to coerce Mr. and Mrs. Kim into selling their mom and pop corner grocery store so he can turn the block into a parking garage. We have to stop those thugs from vandalizing the place and prove the developer is behind it!
2 Municipal: The city is in danger! Dr. Venomous is going to poison the reservoir and ransom the antidote!
3 National: The international terrorist organization V.E.N.O.M. put a wide beam lens on their anti-dollar ray and are going to launch it on a satellite to tank the economy! Also a large meteor is heading for Kansas.
4 Global: Turns out that meteor heading for Kansas is a supermassive slab of depleted uranium that will strike with enough force to make the KT extinction event look like a rough winter.
5 Galactic: A star-sized alien entity in a bad mood and carrying an antimatter cannon is going to try to curdle the Milky Way and make a whole hell of a lot of yogurt.

Setting danger: How painful is failure?
0 Toon: The bad guy says "boo". If you can't resist, you say "zoinks!" and run away.
1 Boffer: You can get knocked down, but you get up again. You can be knocked unconscious by repeated blows to the head and never get concussed or even bruised. You may get some dirty smudge marks.
2 Bruiser: Amateur boxing. You can get some bruises or superficial bleeding from shallow cuts. Losing all your hit points means taking a break to rest and rehydrate.
3 Death is possible but unlikely: If you die, it's your fault. Dying doesn't happen by accident, but if you foolishly bite off more than you can chew, you can get killed. If the DM asks "Are you absolutely sure you by to do that?" for the third time and you still say yes, somebody might die. In hindsight, the stupidity of that plan will be obvious.
4 Death is easy: Nobody has plot armor. If you don't want to get shot and killed by a mook with a gun, don't stand in the line of fire.
5 Death is random: Anybody can die at any time, even if they don't make any mistakes. Sometimes, you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The survivor of the meatgrinder isn't the smartest or the strongest or the toughest. They are just lucky.

[PhoenixPhyre]

@Xuc Xac--

The problem is that the scales are not independent or orthogonal. A power-level 0 character can't handle a stakes 5 situation. And toon-level deadliness and high stakes aren't comfortable together for me.

I'd be willing to bet that there's only a small set of possible combinations for a game.

For a PL 0-1 character, basically anything above Stakes 1 (maybe low 2) is set dressing--background that they move through, not solve. And anything below Danger 5 starts to feel unreal unless the stakes are really low (ie if there's combat at all).

For a PL 4-5 character, basically anything below Stakes 4 is trivial (solve it while doing something else) and Dangers above about 3 are unheard of, just because the power level is so high that only another similar character can even start to threaten them.

I'd have to see examples of systems/settings where these are not the case, where a PL 1 character is instrumental in solving a S4+ issue (as in, is the protagonist) but only faces D1 or D2 threats.

I'd say Iron Man is at the top of my T2 or low T3, while spiderman and daredevil (and Batman) are mid/low T2.

[Cluedrew]

The problem is that the scales are not independent or orthogonal. A power-level 0 character can't handle a stakes 5 situation. And toon-level deadliness and high stakes aren't comfortable together for me.

I think ability and stakes usually progress similarly, but they certainly aren't in lock step. And danger actually has very little correlation to the other two, outside of superhero fiction where there seems to be a trend towards more deadly at lower power levels. Actually I'm sure comics is probably your main place for toon-galactic threats as well.

But I can think of many low power high scale stories (these are usually political or in worlds without many high powered characters at all). Fewer high power low scale stories, although many of these large scale stories don't feel very large scale, they just seem to swap out the name of the area under threat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think ability and stakes usually progress similarly, but they certainly aren't in lock step. And danger actually has very little correlation to the other two, outside of superhero fiction where there seems to be a trend towards more deadly at lower power levels. Actually I'm sure comics is probably your main place for toon-galactic threats as well.

But I can think of many low power high scale stories (these are usually political or in worlds without many high powered characters at all). Fewer high power low scale stories, although many of these large scale stories don't feel very large scale, they just seem to swap out the name of the area under threat.

But are those low PL/high S stories ones in which you have a small group of people who are instrumental in solving them directly or are they simply the backdrop against which the story is set (most apocalyptic fiction)? In science fiction you may have a crew that's everywhere (cf anything by David Weber or anything Star Trek), but there they usually have technology that substitutes for personal power. And even then you have tremendous amounts of plot armor (as in the origin of the term "red shirt" in this context).

I'm not aware of any piece of fiction in which a very high power person, important person dies trivially. Their deaths (if villains) are always at the hands of powerful heroes in dramatic moments; if heroes they're almost always in the form of a heroic sacrifice/fly, fools moment. And they rarely are permanent.

You can have squad things (where the individual isn't really important) and deadly combat is a regular occurrence (cf WH40K), but even there the big boys don't die casually. That's left to the Imperial Guard (or even the lower-ranked Astartes if the threat is particularly dire).

[Cluedrew]

But are those low PL/high S stories ones in which you have a small group of people who are instrumental in solving them directly or are they simply the backdrop against which the story is set (most apocalyptic fiction)?

The former. They might just find themselves in the right place at the right time, they may inspire others or they might just be someone a high powered villain overlooked.

I'm not aware of any piece of fiction in which a very high power person, important person dies trivially.

Yes. But the important bit is what keeps them safe. I can (vaguely, I can't find it anymore) remember a story in which a single man destroyed an army of 90 000. Except for the 3 named characters in it, who all survived to the end of the story. As I recall the one who destroyed the army died in the next scene. Or did he get killed part way through and then the vessel finished off the army... ironically I can't remember because, despite killing hundreds per blow, his death was not given much time.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The former. They might just find themselves in the right place at the right time, they may inspire others or they might just be someone a high powered villain overlooked.

I'd love examples. I'd still consider those outliers (which are inevitable)--most high-threat situations (anything beyond the individual level) tend to be dealt with by tech/magic McGuffins or very powerful individuals.

One example might be the original Cthullu thing--it's a major (world-ending) threat, but it's dealt with primarily by dealing with the much smaller-scale cultists rather than by facing down Cthullu himself (the whole ship thing is just a pin-prick to get him to go back to sleep when it's obvious it's not his time; it wouldn't have worked if the cultists had succeeded).

Yes. But the important bit is what keeps them safe. I can (vaguely, I can't find it anymore) remember a story in which a single man destroyed an army of 90 000. Except for the 3 named characters in it, who all survived to the end of the story. As I recall the one who destroyed the army died in the next scene. Or did he get killed part way through and then the vessel finished off the army... ironically I can't remember because, despite killing hundreds per blow, his death was not given much time.

That's true, in that having a name is probably the most important plot armor you can have. But those aren't T0 characters--they have plot armor. And non-primary characters (those other than protagonists and major antagonists) aren't really held to the same standards. Are there stories where protagonists or primary antagonists with significant individual power get killed off like flies? I'd say SoFaI is about as close as it gets, and many of those don't have significant power. It'd be like Daenerys dying before she met the dragons to some random arrow. Or superman being offed on his way to work in a car accident.

[Cluedrew]

On Outliers: Sure they are less common, I said so my first post here. ... Actually in so many words. But the point is they do exist and if you want to further improve this description, being able to describe them will help.

The most well known/recent example I can think of is Moana, the Disney movie. The main character's powers are A) she has the rock and B) has more powerful people (and manifestations of nature) on side. Also see every historical movie about national or international politics. Especially in the retelling it often seems to come down to the efforts of one or two people with no special powers what so ever. Amazing Grace comes to mind for some reason.

On Plot Armour: There is no such thing as a character with no plot armour. Unless we count only the really obvious varieties. You don't remove character from the story randomly. Not even with Song of Ice and Fire rates of character death are the deaths random.

[PhoenixPhyre]

On Outliers: Sure they are less common, I said so my first post here. ... Actually in so many words. But the point is they do exist and if you want to further improve this description, being able to describe them will help.

The most well known/recent example I can think of is Moana, the Disney movie. The main character's powers are A) she has the rock and B) has more powerful people (and manifestations of nature) on side. Also see every historical movie about national or international politics. Especially in the retelling it often seems to come down to the efforts of one or two people with no special powers what so ever. Amazing Grace comes to mind for some reason.

On outliers--having a system capable of describing all outliers often makes it less useful (more baroque) than it can be. I'm willing to sacrifice handling edge cases if it handles most of the common ones. As I said in the OP, these are broad sign-posts on a (probably multi-dimensional) spectrum. But I think the simplicity is useful. Someone who wants to play a Type 4 character and someone who prefers a Type 0 character are unlikely to want the same game system--these things tend to come in clumps.

On Plot Armour: There is no such thing as a character with no plot armour. Unless we count only the really obvious varieties. You don't remove character from the story randomly. Not even with Song of Ice and Fire rates of character death are the deaths random.

There are in games. And that's my main focus here. I've heard several posters say that they don't want plot armor/prefer gritty combat. If they get hit, they mostly get dead. To me, that militates against a high-combat game (or at least a high combat game where individual characterization is important). On the other hand, someone wanting a high-combat, individual-focused game seems to necessarily need some form of armor, whether it's plot armor, explicit super powers, or high damage-soaking capabilities.

[Xuc Xac]

It'd be like Daenerys dying before she met the dragons to some random arrow. Or superman being offed on his way to work in a car accident.

That's pretty much how the legendary invulnerable warrior Achilles died. It was like Clark Kent dying in a car accident because he crashed into a truck carrying a load of kryptonite.
More examples of mismatched power, danger, and stakes.
P0, D0, S1: Every episode of Scooby-Doo.
P0, D0, S2: The movie "Tommy Boy". If this incompetent salesman can't pull off a major business deal fast, his family business will shut down and take the whole town's economy with it.
P3, D1, S2: "Teen Titans" cartoon series.
P4, D1, S4: Most of the Fantastic 4 comics. If there's someone with a gun or other deadly weapon, they demonstrate how powerful it is by shooting it at the guy made of rock or the girl with the forcefields instead of the squishy guys who can be killed by it. Dangerous stuff exists but it never seems to be aimed at vulnerable targets.
P0-1, D3, S4: The 80s movie "Real Men". A trained spy (regular, non-James Bond type) and a suburban nobody who happens to look just like another spy have to save the world from a global extinction. The stakes are really high but it's also super secret and the solution is really simple. The only thing standing between them and saving all life on the planet is a handful of other spies, which is quite a lot of danger for the two of them. Also, another 80s movie "Spies Like Us". A couple of guys with almost no training are told they are spies on an important mission to stop a Russian nuclear missile. They're actually just decoys to draw the Russians away from the real spies, but they screw up and end up being the ones that don't get caught and have to save the world from mutually assured destruction when the missile goes off.
P1-2, D3, S4+: "Guardians of the Galaxy". Everything happens on a huge scale and there's a macguffin that puts planet destroying power in the hands of one P2-3 guy, but everyone who makes a difference is a small cog.
P0, D5, S4: World War II. Except in the RPG "Godlike" and the Wolverine comics, there were no super humans with plot armor at D-day.
P4, D0, S2-3+: The Justice League heroes of "Superfriends".
P1, D0, S4: "Ender's Game". Ender is secretly watched over and protected even though the greatest threat to his personal safety is a child bully. He has good training and talent in strategy and tactics, but he directs military forces by remote control from many light years away. Every time he makes a mistake, hundreds or thousands of people die, but he's never in any personal danger. Of course, he's fighting a war for the survival of the human species, so if he loses too much everyone will die. But, not him. He'll die of old age before his loss would impact him personally due to the relativistic distances involved.

[Darth Ultron]

The problem is that the scales are not independent or orthogonal. A power-level 0 character can't handle a stakes 5 situation. And toon-level deadliness and high stakes aren't comfortable together for me.

Is not the classic everyman vs a god a standard way to play a RPG? This is Call of Cthullu. It also fits the classic story of the 'nobody' thrust into another world where they must save the day.

Remember the setting can shake things up. If the everyman has the Sword of Omens, then they can cleave the moon from the sky. The same way an evil foe is often beaten by an everyman's wit or cleverness or otherwise normal abilities.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's pretty much how the legendary invulnerable warrior Achilles died.

That wasn't a random arrow. That one was targeted specifically against his only weakness using divine help (in some versions) by another hero-class character. All the legendary heroes died in particular ways, usually for dramatic reasons.

More examples of mismatched power, danger, and stakes.
P0, D0, S1: Every episode of Scooby-Doo.
P0, D0, S2: The movie "Tommy Boy". If this incompetent salesman can't pull off a major business deal fast, his family business will shut down and take the whole town's economy with it.
P3, D1, S2: "Teen Titans" cartoon series.
P4, D1, S4: Most of the Fantastic 4 comics. If there's someone with a gun or other deadly weapon, they demonstrate how powerful it is by shooting it at the guy made of rock or the girl with the forcefields instead of the squishy guys who can be killed by it. Dangerous stuff exists but it never seems to be aimed at vulnerable targets.
P0-1, D3, S4: The 80s movie "Real Men". A trained spy (regular, non-James Bond type) and a suburban nobody who happens to look just like another spy have to save the world from a global extinction. The stakes are really high but it's also super secret and the solution is really simple. The only thing standing between them and saving all life on the planet is a handful of other spies, which is quite a lot of danger for the two of them. Also, another 80s movie "Spies Like Us". A couple of guys with almost no training are told they are spies on an important mission to stop a Russian nuclear missile. They're actually just decoys to draw the Russians away from the real spies, but they screw up and end up being the ones that don't get caught and have to save the world from mutually assured destruction when the missile goes off.
P1-2, D3, S4+: "Guardians of the Galaxy". Everything happens on a huge scale and there's a macguffin that puts planet destroying power in the hands of one P2-3 guy, but everyone who makes a difference is a small cog.
P0, D5, S4: World War II. Except in the RPG "Godlike" and the Wolverine comics, there were no super humans with plot armor at D-day.
P4, D0, S2-3+: The Justice League heroes of "Superfriends".
P1, D0, S4: "Ender's Game". Ender is secretly watched over and protected even though the greatest threat to his personal safety is a child bully. He has good training and talent in strategy and tactics, but he directs military forces by remote control from many light years away. Every time he makes a mistake, hundreds or thousands of people die, but he's never in any personal danger. Of course, he's fighting a war for the survival of the human species, so if he loses too much everyone will die. But, not him. He'll die of old age before his loss would impact him personally due to the relativistic distances involved.

I'd say that in most of those, the "big danger" is just a backdrop against which the stories are set. Ender's Game, for example, isn't really about the war. That's a setting element. The main story is about Ender and his personal struggles and his growth. There are exceptions, but I'm having trouble translating them into RPG stories. And it's the RPGs that I'm really interested in.

Oh, and Guardians of the Galaxy (like any superhero movie) involves crazy amounts of plot armor, which is a type 1 or type 2 thing. They're not nobodies. They're small compared to the other fish in the pond, but compared to the mooks they're basically invulnerable due to story demands. That's not something that happens in a Type 0 game/story.

Your system is also way more complicated with many more quibble points, but then I prefer simplicity in my analogies, so that's a taste thing.

[Cluedrew]

To PhoenixPhyre: Well if this is the complexity you are aiming for... I think you might have done it. I can tell you it is too simple for me to see myself using it. I can get more detail by splitting the title of type 4 into two mythic heroes call up a very different style than shonen heroes.

Which is not to say that it is bad (I tend to the more detail side of things a lot (I mean a lot (I'm not joking (OK now I am)))) but it brings to mind a question: What is this system for? What do you want to accomplish with it? Is it just a way to create a quick reference for the scale of different systems? Or... whatever.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Mainly as a starting point, a question to consider when deciding on a game system.

I'm curious, what do you see as the big difference in power between the major mythic heroes (Gilgamesh, the big Celtic ones, etc) and a full on shonen protagonist (Goku, Kurosaki Ichigo, etc)? I'd put late WoT Rand on that scale.

Are there significant game systems that don't fit on this scale? If so, what must change to fit them in reasonably well?

[Xuc Xac]

Your system is also way more complicated with many more quibble points, but then I prefer simplicity in my analogies, so that's a taste thing.

Your system is too simple for all the points you're considering. You have a Tier 2 pigeonhole for characters with Tier 2 power facing Tier 2 dangers to achieve Tier 2 goals. Then you put anyone in that pigeonhole who meets only one of those criteria. You're considering a 3D object on several axes but you want to plot them on a line. It's like when 4E alignment put Law vs Chaos and Good vs Evil on one line with LG and CE on the ends. You can't be lawful evil or chaotic good because law and good are lumped together.

Your system ties damage dealing ability to damage resistance. That only works for game systems that tie them together too (usually class based systems that gives powers and hit points together as a package). If you can gain passive plot armor separately from active powers, your sudden only works if everybody keeps them balanced instead of focusing on one over the other.

[Psyren]

Type 4 Heroes: Mythic Heroes/Shonen Protagonists at full power
These heroes have *all* the power. Their very act of powering up (which usually takes a while) tends to be destructive to the landscape.

Can I just point out that this meme is a bit undeserved? Powering up took ages in DBZ because it was essentially filler - the anime having caught up with the manga, they were forced to throw in very lengthy power up sequences, establishing shots, pointless sparring sequences, exposition/taunting, flashbacks and all kinds of other padding just to give the authors time to write more actual plot. The in-universe reality for most shonen is that powering up doesn't take a lot of time at all, even within DBZ itself. Sorry to latch onto a minor point but this is a pet peeve of mine.

[Darth Ultron]

I think you need to keep fictional stories and gameplay separate. Any character in fiction does not just have ''plot armor'', they have ''setting armor'' or even ''existence armor''. No fictional character can suddenly have any event happen to them in anyway, unless the creators want it that way.

1-Cartoon- This is no death or even anything even close to 'bad'.
Fiction-all cartoons and most Disney made things.
Published Games-TOON, My Little Pony
PRG Type-No character death ever. Foes more ''fall down'' then die

2-Kidz Stuff-There is a little bit of bad things like death, but very little, and mostly out of view
Fiction-the rest of Disney, most of Marvel, Most DC, Star Wars
Published Games-Hero Kids, Mermaid Adventures, The Zorcerer of Zo
PRG Type-very rare character death that is never random. Foes still just ''fall out of game play''

3-Average-bad things happen, but with a light touch and very little shown
Fiction-the rest of Marvel and DC, most TV especially broadcast
Published Games-D&D, and really most other games.
RPG Type-the classic 'safe' game, character death is rare, foes are killed, and bad things are ignored.

4-Dark-bad things happen, a lot, often with a heavy touch and much is shown
Fiction-All most all the rest of TV(except pay TV shows), Sony Marvel movies
Published Games-Is there a Playboy RPG? It would go here, Call of Cthullu
RPG Type-character death is common, bad things are common and played out in the game

5-Type X-all bad things all the time
Fiction-Dark Mirror, Pay Tv shows
Published Games-F.A.T.A.L. ,Boot Hill
RPG Type-character death is very common, bad things are very common

[Knaight]

There's a definite niche below 0 here - there's animals (Bunnies and Burrows, Mouseguard, Cats), there's small children (Monsters and Other Childish Things, though that's a bit of a weird case where the sub-0 character is bolted to something in the 2-3 range), there's certain tiny adorable robots (Engine Hearts), there's adult humans way below the everyman mark (Everyone is John, a significant fraction of Fiasco characters), so on and so forth.

Basically, there's two major forms with a fair few games each. One is the dramatic where the characters are delibreately made very small and weak to emphasize the dangers of that dramatic scenario (Mouseguard in particular is basically this distilled to its purest form). Then there's comedy games which are made funny partially because of the hilarious ineptitude of the characters in them (Everyone is John would be the pure distillation here).

[Cluedrew]

I'm curious, what do you see as the big difference in power between the major mythic heroes (Gilgamesh, the big Celtic ones, etc) and a full on shonen protagonist (Goku, Kurosaki Ichigo, etc)?

The types of power they get, what they are generally expected to do with it, how flashy it is. Also mythic hero stories tend to actually be noticeably more lethal (to protagonists at least) than the eastern comic hero. There are many other differences as well, but most of those don't have to do with individual power. Rate of growth is another, the shonen protagonists tend to go through much more extreme power ups than the mythic heroes, who tend to be at full power at the beginning of the story.

[Mr Beer]

Superpowers and plot armour are not required to correlate so closely.

It's possible to have a total 'normal' who has enough plot armour that everything runs around him (e.g. Batman) or a superpowered person that just gets horribly killed because they don't have plot armour (e.g. lots of high level D&D characters or 90% of people in Garth Ennis's The Boys).

[Bohandas]

@Xuc Xac--

The problem is that the scales are not independent or orthogonal. A power-level 0 character can't handle a stakes 5 situation. And toon-level deadliness and high stakes aren't comfortable together for me.

I don;t know; I think it'd go well with that yogurt one