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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I mean, it probably should, but, by RAW, it does not. And this is the Playground, after all, home of the most optimized pedantry.

    Custom 9th level spells, so that they cannot be safely duplicated, even with wish?

    I don't actually remember if there was a published technique, even in old-school, or not.
    By RAW, demiplanes are extraplanar. You're talking about creating not even custom spells but whole custom rule systems, which is well outside the realm of RAW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Yes and no. Maybe I'm just remembering old-school rules, but, as I recall, the Fighter has no way to control the Spheres - that's a Wizard-exclusive "class feature".
    Anyone can control a Sphere of Annihilation with a DC 30 check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    But the wizard wasn't incorporeal. So that did not apply.
    The build in question was incorporeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    As for permanent, permanency does this... It's just subject to gm adjudication.
    Antimagic Field cannot be made permanent.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post

    Antimagic Field cannot be made permanent.
    Why is that?

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Why is that?
    It's not on the list of eligible spells—and also, you can't cast permanency in (or into) an antimagic field because...well, you know.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It's not on the list of eligible spells—and also, you can't cast permanency in (or into) an antimagic field because...well, you know.
    Now we get into technical. See, it's not on the "eligible spell list," BUT permanency says "other spells may be made permanent subject to gm adjudication." So it's up to the gm. As I had stated.

    As for unable to be making the field permanent because of its nature, now it gets wonky. See, the antimagic field says magic entering into or passing through... but see it says nothing about magic targeting itself. And, logically, the antimagic field does not contain itself. So an argument can easily be made.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    If one casts acorn of far travel on a tree in an area with the timeless trait in regards to magic, antimagic fields would most definitely be permanent. Likewise for someone using planar bubble (either version) tied to a timeless (magic) plane. And making it last 24-48 hours via Persistent Spell and maybe Extend Spell seems long enough for most purposes, really.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-07-28 at 11:14 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Now we get into technical. See, it's not on the "eligible spell list," BUT permanency says "other spells may be made permanent subject to gm adjudication." So it's up to the gm. As I had stated.

    As for unable to be making the field permanent because of its nature, now it gets wonky. See, the antimagic field says magic entering into or passing through... but see it says nothing about magic targeting itself. And, logically, the antimagic field does not contain itself. So an argument can easily be made.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    A challenge majig doesn't seem like the place for what are essentially house rules.
    I mean, the wizard is OP as it is, so why are we giving him tremendous amount of leniency and favoritism by house ruling a non-RAW interaction?

    How about "The wizard researches a 1st level spell that permanently kills every fighter that appears in the arena" and have a DM say "Ok, you can have it, because there's this vague rule saying I can give you any spell you want."

    Challenge over, wizard won by researching a 1st level spell.

    Try something else, something that doesn't require DM leniency and favoritism. AMF is a CORE spell, so if it's not on the permanency list, it's not there on purpose.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2018-07-28 at 11:39 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    I mean, the wizard is OP as it is, so why are we giving him tremendous amount of leniency and favoritism by house ruling a non-RAW interaction?

    How about "The wizard researches a 1st level spell that permanently kills every fighter that appears in the arena" and have a DM say "Ok, you can have it, because there's this vague rule saying I can give you any spell you want."

    Challenge over, wizard won by researching a 1st level spell.

    Try something else, something that doesn't require DM leniency and favoritism. AMF is a CORE spell, so if it's not on the permanency list, it's not there on purpose.
    Ultimately, you could probably just wish it permanent. Now handling the disjunction is the real kicker.
    Also, you might need tunneling spell to bypass your own amf since spells can't be cast through it.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    If one casts acorn of far travel on a tree in an area with the timeless trait in regards to magic, antimagic fields would most definitely be permanent. Likewise for someone using planar bubble (either version) tied to a timeless (magic) plane. And making it last 24-48 hours via Persistent Spell and maybe Extend Spell seems long enough for most purposes, really.
    Yeah, I wasn't really expecting that issue to represent a huge stumbling block. It's probably the least important of the four or so issues that have been presented. The immunity to your own AMF is probably the most important, because it's a lot of what the plan is, then the ethereal immunity into a +20 thing, cause it renders the plan possibly not particularly effective, then the disjunction immunity, because, while it's important if it happens, I wouldn't expect it to be a super present strategy among a pile of fighters, and finally the duration, which was mostly there for completeness' sake, because making it actually permanent is non-trivial and I like knowing what we're talking about.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Yeah, I wasn't really expecting that issue to represent a huge stumbling block. It's probably the least important of the four or so issues that have been presented. The immunity to your own AMF is probably the most important, because it's a lot of what the plan is, then the ethereal immunity into a +20 thing, cause it renders the plan possibly not particularly effective, then the disjunction immunity, because, while it's important if it happens, I wouldn't expect it to be a super present strategy among a pile of fighters, and finally the duration, which was mostly there for completeness' sake, because making it actually permanent is non-trivial and I like knowing what we're talking about.
    Selective spell does the trick for not being affected by the amf. That +20 houserule will definitely be a problem though. Without that houserule, it works almost 100%.

    With the +20 rule, there will eventually be an ubercharger strong enough to one shot you. At this point I suggest coupling this defense with miss chances, as well as bringing planar bindings and gates into play. With 20 dr and complete shut down of enemy magic, most archers won't be a real issue.

    A strategy of defensive lines, obscuring mists, invisibility, flight and this ethereal magic shutdown will pretty much extend your survivability to near infinite.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Anyone can control a Sphere of Annihilation with a DC 30 check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Notably, a Fighter could perform the same trick just as easily against 200 Wizards if given sufficient prep time and access to arbitrary artifacts.
    Huh. Until Sphere of Annihilation is given a price, I'm not demonstrably over WBL, although it's clearly cheesy one way or the other. Well, while the Fighter could preform the "fill the arena" trick, they could not preform the "cast spells to have allies move Spheres around" trick. Nor could they do this next bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    That would only work against fighters that are made out of matter. Fighters that aren't made out of matter wouldn't be affected by the Sphere of Annihilation.
    So, what types of Fighters aren't made of matter? And can I deal with them by...

    Filling the astral / ethereal with enough stuff to force them to appear outside the arena?

    Using Diplomacy?

    Or do I have to resort to spells / minions?

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Right, I've had a rethink.

    The Setup
    1. The wizard fills almost all of the arena with stone (most likely by summoning creatures that can use wall of stone as a spell-like ability - four conjured dao could do it within a week of constant casting).

    2. The wizard leaves a small pocket in the stone for herself, sealed away from the rest of the arena and only large enough for herself (so that no fighters can appear there). She has a few magic items for air, food, water, etc as necessary, or becomes undead, or casts temporal stasis on herself. She'll be spending the rest of eternity here, ho hum.

    3. There are also 4-5 vertical channels in the stone near the centre of the arena, just large enough so that 200 fighters can fill them without any fighter becoming incorporeal. At the base of each channel is a permanent teleportation circle, set to teleport the fighters into the vacuum outside or into the nearest sun. The wizard has used feats, items, etc to make her caster level high enough to beat any possible spell resistance.

    The Process
    As each fighter appears, he immediately drops down into a teleportation circle (before he can activate an item of flight) and is immediately teleported away to his doom (no save). In this way the channels are perpetually full of falling fighters, and the wizard is safely ensconced in her pocket.

    If it's ruled that the fighters can start with their flight activated, the wizard will have to use summoned creature shenanigans (due to the otherwise overwhelming XP costs) to create 200 individual pockets instead of the channels, each with their own teleportation circle (so that the fighters have to start in contact with them).

    Bonus
    If the fighters' magic items are problematic, the wizard can fill the channels (except the bases) with walls of greater dispel magic, made permanent with the help of limited wish or wish spells. Requires a bit of DM permission but I think it's fair, given that prismatic wall and more powerful spells can be made permanent.
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-07-30 at 05:43 AM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Right, I've had a rethink.

    The Setup
    1. The wizard fills almost all of the arena with stone (most likely by summoning creatures that can use wall of stone as a spell-like ability - four conjured dao could do it within a week of constant casting).

    2. The wizard leaves a small pocket in the stone for herself, sealed away from the rest of the arena and only large enough for herself (so that no fighters can appear there). She has a few magic items for air, food, water, etc as necessary, or becomes undead, or casts temporal stasis on herself. She'll be spending the rest of eternity here, ho hum.

    3. There are also 4-5 vertical channels in the stone near the centre of the arena, just large enough so that 200 fighters can fill them without any fighter becoming incorporeal. At the base of each channel is a permanent teleportation circle, set to teleport the fighters into the vacuum outside or into the nearest sun. The wizard has used feats, items, etc to make her caster level high enough to beat any possible spell resistance.

    The Process
    As each fighter appears, he immediately drops down into a teleportation circle (before he can activate an item of flight) and is immediately teleported away to his doom (no save). In this way the channels are perpetually full of falling fighters, and the wizard is safely ensconced in her pocket.

    If it's ruled that the fighters can start with their flight activated, the wizard will have to use summoned creature shenanigans (due to the otherwise overwhelming XP costs) to create 200 individual pockets instead of the channels, each with their own teleportation circle (so that the fighters have to start in contact with them).

    Bonus
    If the fighters' magic items are problematic, the wizard can fill the channels (except the bases) with walls of greater dispel magic, made permanent with the help of limited wish or wish spells. Requires a bit of DM permission but I think it's fair, given that prismatic wall and more powerful spells can be made permanent.
    Not bad, until a fighter comes along with a dimensional anchor effect on him who destroys a circle. Then they take adamantine swords, axes, shovels etc, chop their way to the other circles and then chop them up and eventually get their way to you.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Items of feather fall would necessitate the non-falling version of the teleportation circle traps.

    Alternatively, fighters bearing items of anti-magic field still screw with this approach. Double up, if necessary; one would suppress the other, but if a dispel hits one, the other activates. Quintupling up would make the 1d4+1 round reset timer irrelevant, in case you're hitting them with a dispel per round. (More than that and it gets silly on both sides, but might be doable with dispelling walls.)

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    What happens if you fill up the entire field with walls of iron, with a few absolutely minuscule empty spaces filled with a single grain of sand (made of riverine) that is the focus of a permanent, burrowing antimagic field? The only space big enough for a creature is an area just large enough for the "wizard" to fit into, with no additional space whatsoever? Fighters would materialize inside solid iron, instantly killing them. And if they tried the incorporeality thing, they would be locked into a state of nothingness due to the presence of the AMFs. If there's something that could walk through the iron like an earth elemental walks through earth, how about mithral? Adamantine? Obdurium? Riverine? Prismatic walls? Perhaps an evenly marbled mix of all of the above?

    Of course, the above would suck for the wizard, too, but nobody ever said the solution had to be comfortable.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-07-30 at 12:41 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    I may have missed a stipulation somewhere to the contrary, but wouldn't an AMF or dimension lock prevent the fighters from materializing within their areas at all?

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    The challenge assumes the caster plays the numbers game rather than changing the rules of engagement drastically. Filling up the arena so every square is occupied and the Fighters can't teleport in is just a way of rejecting the premise. Besides, it results in you defeating zero Fighters, which is not exactly an impressive score.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    The challenge assumes the caster plays the numbers game rather than changing the rules of engagement drastically. Filling up the arena so every square is occupied and the Fighters can't teleport in is just a way of rejecting the premise. Besides, it results in you defeating zero Fighters, which is not exactly an impressive score.
    Note that I didn't use dimensional anchor, dimension lock, or some derivative or similar effect. If they're teleported in via nonmagical means (a device from Ravenloft, mayhap), then they will find their mass sharing the same space as already extant matter, and they will die -- or at least bounced back with quite a lot of damage. If they are teleported in and bounced back multiple times, they will eventually die.

    But yes, one of numerous reasons wizards et al are considered so powerful is they can simply reject the rules of whatever reality they're subjected to and substitute their own.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    This thread has led me to wonder if there's any way to construct a character who, upon teleporting into an occupied space, simply "wins" the contest by teleporting in just fine, and leaving him-shaped holes in anything that was there before he got there. Not quite telefragging (no explosions), but tele-disintegrating.

    Pop into a solid wall, and sure, he's embedded in the wall, but the intervening stone or other materials are just gone and he's there in their place.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    This thread has led me to wonder if there's any way to construct a character who, upon teleporting into an occupied space, simply "wins" the contest by teleporting in just fine, and leaving him-shaped holes in anything that was there before he got there. Not quite telefragging (no explosions), but tele-disintegrating.

    Pop into a solid wall, and sure, he's embedded in the wall, but the intervening stone or other materials are just gone and he's there in their place.
    Fusion with an umbral blot? Only really works if you can manage to polymorph any object it into a living corporeal creature, first, though. Then dismiss the polymorph.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-07-30 at 02:04 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Note that I didn't use dimensional anchor, dimension lock, or some derivative or similar effect. If they're teleported in via nonmagical means (a device from Ravenloft, mayhap), then they will find their mass sharing the same space as already extant matter, and they will die -- or at least bounced back with quite a lot of damage. If they are teleported in and bounced back multiple times, they will eventually die.
    Telefrags deal 3d6 damage. That's not enough to kill a 4th level character, let alone a 20th level character. You'll kick a few dorks out of the arena and then get ganked by the first pixie. I predict zero kills.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2018-07-30 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Telefrags deal 3d6 damage. That's not enough to kill a 4th level character, let alone a 20th level character. You'll kick a few dorks out of the arena and then get ganked by the first pixie.
    How does a pixie survive being teleported into a solid mass repeatedly?

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    How does a pixie survive being teleported into a solid mass repeatedly?
    Tiny creatures can share other creatures' space. So it appears in the only available space: your space, conveniently in position for a full attack against your sensitive bits.

    Ghosts can also get you, as can anyone with Ethereal Armor.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2018-07-30 at 03:09 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Tiny creatures can share other creatures' space. So it appears in the only available space: your space, conveniently in position for a full attack against your sensitive bits.
    When I said only enough space for the 'wizard,' I meant it. As in, skin-tight. Ain't no way that's going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Ghosts can also get you, as can anyone with Ethereal Armor.
    And how can ghosts or anyone else who is incorporeal remain functional inside an AMF without disappearing entirely? And you can't attack the Material Plane from the Ethereal without somehow attacking across interplanar boundaries, which would be blocked by the above prismatic walls, I believe. (They're abjurations, which affect ethereal things.)
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-07-30 at 03:17 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    When I said only enough space for the 'wizard,' I meant it. As in, skin-tight. Ain't no way that's going to happen.
    In that case you kill zero Fighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    And how can ghosts remain functional inside an AMF?
    Patience domain ability via Catalogues of Enlightenment makes them immune to it for 1 minute. Gives them 10 full rounds where they get to beat you up while you're encased in iron and unable to move.

    Or just wait for the AMFs to run out, since the spell can't be made permanent.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2018-07-30 at 03:28 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    And how can ghosts or anyone else who is incorporeal remain functional inside an AMF without disappearing entirely?
    An antimagic field only causes incorporeal undead to wink out, so if the incorporeal fighter isn't an undead he'll be just fine.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    In that case you kill zero Fighters.


    Patience domain ability via Catalogues of Enlightenment makes them immune to it for 1 minute. Gives them 10 full rounds where they get to beat you up while you're encased in iron and unable to move.

    Or just wait for the AMFs to run out, since the spell can't be made permanent.
    Immune to the AMF (for 10 rounds), but not to the prismatic walls. And yes, the AMFs can be made permanent, easily. I detailed, I think, three ways on how to do so, earlier in the thread, after all. Acorn of far travel on a timeless-with-respect-to-magic demiplane, as well as planar bubble (the spell) and planar bubble (from planar shepherd).

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    An antimagic field only causes incorporeal undead to wink out, so if the incorporeal fighter isn't an undead he'll be just fine.
    Huh. I might have to set up a device of (un)hallow combined with veil of undeath. Toss it on the Ethereal Plane, and all the ethereal fighters wink out. Permanently.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-07-30 at 03:53 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    I'm looking at the rules, and I'm not seeing anything that says a tiny creature can share a space with an enemy large creature. So even if the fighter is diminutive he can't end his turn while in the same space as a hecatoncheires or a phane.

    So... unless someone shows me the rule that says tiny creatures can stand under/on top of a large creature and attack, Gating in and Necrotic Tumoring epic creatures with a few phanes letting all your creatures save-scum for critical hits seems to be a sure-fire way to wipe out infinite fighters.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Immune to the AMF (for 10 rounds), but not to the prismatic walls. And yes, the AMFs can be made permanent, easily. I detailed, I think, three ways on how to do so, earlier in the thread, after all. Acorn of far travel on a timeless-with-respect-to-magic demiplane, as well as planar bubble (the spell) and planar bubble (from planar shepherd).
    You don't need to be immune to Prismatic Wall. You can walk right through them as long as your saves are good enough.

    Which plane is timeless with respect to magic? I realize it's theoretically possible for such a plane to exist, but I don't know of any such planes, and a demiplane wouldn't work for Planar Bubble without being native to it.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    You don't need to be immune to Prismatic Wall. You can walk right through them as long as your saves are good enough.
    True enough, I suppose, though you'd better have lots of rerolls due to having to push through potentially dozens of them.

    Also, it doesn't help with the riverine, which also extends into the Ethereal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Which plane is timeless with respect to magic? I realize it's theoretically possible for such a plane to exist, but I don't know of any such planes, and a demiplane wouldn't work for Planar Bubble without being native to it.
    Easy enough to make one with certain versions of genesis, and even if you're not naturally native, it's easy enough to create a body there and swap into it. With a pebble + polymorph any object + mind-swapping shenanigans, you have no problem with it at all.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2018-07-30 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: "Wizard 20" vs "Fighters 20"

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    I'm looking at the rules, and I'm not seeing anything that says a tiny creature can share a space with an enemy large creature. So even if the fighter is diminutive he can't end his turn while in the same space as a hecatoncheires or a phane.

    So... unless someone shows me the rule that says tiny creatures can stand under/on top of a large creature and attack, Gating in and Necrotic Tumoring epic creatures with a few phanes letting all your creatures save-scum for critical hits seems to be a sure-fire way to wipe out infinite fighters.
    DMG 29

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    True enough, I suppose, though you'd better have lots of rerolls due to having to push through potentially dozens of them.
    On the other hand, if the Fighter spawns near the Wizard, there might not be any Prismatic Walls to pass through at all. A ghost could spawn right on top of the Wizard and bypass all the defenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Also, it doesn't help with the riverine, which also extends into the Ethereal.
    Where are you getting this riverine, how are you shaping it into walls, and how are you keeping it around in an antimagic field?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Easy enough to make one with certain versions of genesis, and even if you're not naturally native, it's easy enough to create a body there and swap into it. With a pebble + polymorph any object + mind-swapping shenanigans, you have no problem with it at all.
    How do you do this without any interplanar travel? If you leave the arena to go to your demiplane (or even to the ethereal plane to create your demiplane) during your seven days of prep time, you forfeit the contest.

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