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Thread: Dual Magic

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    Default Dual Magic

    I'm thinking about spells, regardless of system, that require two casters working together. I see this as different from group ritual magic, though I can't firmly put a finger on why. Rituals give me a sense of a leader casting while other participants lend strength. I'm looking more for spells analogous to a musical duet, in which each player has a part and the two parts are both required to make the whole. That example makes it seem natural to look to bards, but was only meant as an analogy, and any classes could do this. Some nifty ones might require more than one class so that. For example, the whole spell has both arcane and divine bits. Just for example.

    I have to go, but I'll add more later.

    EDIT: OK, it's later.

    For another analogy, think of a blacksmith working with an assistant. The smith heats the iron, or maybe the assistant does if the smith trusts him. Then the assistant holds the metal, turning and moving it on the anvil, while the smith hits and directs. This is a case with unequal partners, different from the duet analogy.

    I'm still trying to think of an example that can be done this way that can't be done by a single caster. Making it something a single caster can't do is a reason to think of combining different magic types, such as a distinctly divine way of harnessing and directing arcane power that only a wizard can call forth (or vice versa). But I'm not saying it has to be that. It could be, for example, something so complicated that one caster can't manage all the pieces and call forth the power at the same time, so one calls the power and the other uses it.

    I just like the image, but I'm coming up dry for a spell that would work that way, which is why I'm throwing it out to the playground.
    Last edited by jqavins; 2018-07-26 at 12:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    I'm thinking about spells, regardless of system, that require two casters working together. I see this as different from group ritual magic, though I can't firmly put a finger on why. Rituals give me a sense of a leader casting while other participants lend strength. I'm looking more for spells analogous to a musical duet, in which each player has a part and the two parts are both required to make the whole. That example makes it seem natural to look to bards, but was only meant as an analogy, and any classes could do this. Some nifty ones might require more than one class so that. For example, the whole spell has both arcane and divine bits. Just for example.

    I have to go, but I'll add more later.

    EDIT: OK, it's later.

    For another analogy, think of a blacksmith working with an assistant. The smith heats the iron, or maybe the assistant does if the smith trusts him. Then the assistant holds the metal, turning and moving it on the anvil, while the smith hits and directs. This is a case with unequal partners, different from the duet analogy.

    I'm still trying to think of an example that can be done this way that can't be done by a single caster. Making it something a single caster can't do is a reason to think of combining different magic types, such as a distinctly divine way of harnessing and directing arcane power that only a wizard can call forth (or vice versa). But I'm not saying it has to be that. It could be, for example, something so complicated that one caster can't manage all the pieces and call forth the power at the same time, so one calls the power and the other uses it.

    I just like the image, but I'm coming up dry for a spell that would work that way, which is why I'm throwing it out to the playground.
    Is this something which could have evolved from twins practicing magic? Perhaos it is a casting style which is favored by twins?

    The Battery
    This caster has the ability to allow his partner the use of spell slots to power any prepared spell.

    The Focus
    This caster has the ability to sacrifice a spell slot of his highest level in order to add half his caster level to that of his partner. Although this does not reduce spells allowed per day, it does reduce the effective caster level of the Focus. Both effects apply for 24 hours or until the next rest period.

    The Lightening Rod
    This caster has the ability to sacrifice a spell slot and thereafter any spell of that level or lower which is cast at his partner affects the Lightening Rod instead.

    Simultaneous Casting
    This pair may cast the same spell from either character's available spells and each may use any one metamagic feat, (two total,) paying only the extra slots required by the caster whose spell slot was used to cast. The second caster does not use any slots for this, but it consumes his full round to perform a simultaneous casting.

    If any of these fit your idea, use them as you like.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    For spells involving other planes (e.g. astral projection), or refluffed to involve other planes (e.g. a fireball drawing power from the Elemental Plane of Fire), one caster could be "grounded" on the Material Plane to oversee the other caster as his/her spirit contacts the relevant plane.

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    I have a few thoughts:

    Perhaps one caster acts as a power supply, and provides the other acts to shape and control it. Alternatively, some other scheme in which different aspects of typical spellcasting are individually delegated (ex: each party casts half of the scry-and-die combo, one caster chooses a target and the other casts Fireball, one caster summons up the outsider and the other does the bargaining).

    My second thought is some kind of spell combining in which two spells are cast for cumulative effect- one caster summons a rainstorm and the other shoots lightning.

    My third thought is rituals, from Unearthed Arcana (Incantations? not sure of the name), where multiple skill checks are required for a single effect. Here, each caster can make different checks, and various unique costs can be applied. As a model for combined casting, this might be best, because there's a defined structure for failure- there's easy space in the rules to define one of the casters "not doing their job", as well as space for more abstract participation in the combined effort- a caster who provides the structure and direction for the effect might require a knowledge(arcana) or Spellcraft check, where normal expenditure of spell slots wouldn't be appropriate.

    Also, jqavins, rferries: How do you pronounce your usernames? I've been thinking "jay-kah-vins" and "are- ferries" up to now, but I realize this may be wrong.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
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    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    They share a spell slot pool?

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    How abot converting chain lightning to distribote healing spells, or a holly pillar of charm person?

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Why not come up with some spells that have a casting time of reaction so that when your friend casts a spell you can cast a reaction spell or vice versa. you can set the requirements on the reaction spells linked to a school of magic or maybe a specific effect. example would be when your wizard casts fireball you react with a Cold Fire reaction spell triggered by the casting a fire spell and you change the damage type of the fireball from fire to cold.
    just an idea. you could also make it so that the reaction spells dont use spell slots (they would be weaker) or you could make it so they dont count against the number of prepared spells.

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Some interesting ideas. They don't quite hit the note I'm looking for, and that doesn't detract from them for what they are.

    What I'm thinking of goes more like this:
    • Jack prepares a fourth level spell called Awesome Spell Slot A
    • Jill prepares the fourth level spell Awesome Spell Tab B
    • Later, Jack and Jill face each other (or stand back to back or join hands or whatever; maybe even far apart but coordinated by some means) and both start casting the combined Awesome Spell, a thing which, for some reason, no single caster could accomplish. The overall power level should be comparable to a fifth level spell, maybe even sixth, but the specific effect is something that simply requires two casters.

    The foregoing, obviously, is framed in D&D-like terms, but I'd be interested in ideas for any system. It also could be that the Slot A and Tab B parts are the same spell as far as spells known limits go, differing only in the role each plays.

    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    Also, jqavins, rferries: How do you pronounce your usernames? I've been thinking "jay-kah-vins" and "are- ferries" up to now, but I realize this may be wrong.
    If you check my sig, you'll see that the preferred pronunciation is Joe. My full name is Joseph Q Avins; Avins is pronounced with a long A and short i. So if you must pronounce the username it is J. Q Avins. (Note, there is no period after the Q, is this is really my full name. I have no legal middle name at all; the Q is an affectation [which predates John de Lancie's acting career]). I use the Q in my usernames because javins without it could equally well be my father, a brother, or either of two cousins. As for our mutual friend, I've been pronouncing it the same way, as in "The MV Twin Capes and The CAT are ferries." I've been assuming, for no good reason, a structure like mine: R. Ferries.
    Last edited by jqavins; 2018-07-27 at 08:02 AM.
    -- Joe
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    Some interesting ideas. They don't quite hit the note I'm looking for, and that doesn't detract from them for what they are.

    What I'm thinking of goes more like this:
    • Jack prepares a fourth level spell called Awesome Spell Slot A
    • Jill prepares the fourth level spell Awesome Spell Tab B
    • Later, Jack and Jill face each other (or stand back to back or join hands or whatever; maybe even far apart but coordinated by some means) and both start casting the combined Awesome Spell, a thing which, for some reason, no single caster could accomplish. The overall power level should be comparable to a fifth level spell, maybe even sixth, but the specific effect is something that simply requires two casters.

    The foregoing, obviously, is framed in D&D-like terms, but I'd be interested in ideas for any system. It also could be that the Slot A and Tab B parts are the same spell as far as spells known limits go, differing only in the role each plays.
    Ah I see! The action economy dictates that such spells would have to be powerful indeed to be worth casting, but I could see it. Do you have your heart set on there being two versions (A and B) of the spell, or could it just be the same spell and the casters decide who will play each role during casting? Otherwise it really penalises spontaneous casters (e.g. if two of them both end up with the A version, and therefore can't cast the spell at all)... though perhaps that's less flavourful.

    There's certainly precedent for similar effects (though obviously these are more "multi-" than the "dual-" you were looking for):

    -a hag covey using its SLAs

    -vrocks and their dance of ruin

    -imbue with spell ability

    -Pathfinder [Teamwork] feats

    -spellcasters assisting with binding

    -spellcasters assisting with epic spells

    I've been assuming, for no good reason, a structure like mine: R. Ferries.
    Precisely! Great minds haha.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    It is a requirement of the spell, rather than the spellcasting system?

    This might make the pair capable of casting a spell neither can cast alone.

    For example, assume they want to cast Summon Monster V but they have only Level 4 slots. They devise a two-part spell to achieve the effect.

    If this is the case, I'd begin with a metamagic feat: Dual Casting. I'd make the caster take it a second time if he wants a second partner he can dual cast with. Thus Bert would have Dual Caster (Ernie,) and Ernie would have Dual Caster (Bert.)

    I would then require all of their spells capable of being dual cast to be researched by the pair, (timing synch, and so on.) A spell researched by Bert and Ernie wouldn't be useful to Grover and Elmo, or rven to Ernie and Elmo, except as a place to begin researching the spell for themselves. Ernie may not be required to know two versions of the same spell if the number of known spells is limited by class restrictions.

    I might think really hard about spell-slot cost vs. effect. In the old days two slots of one level was equivalent to one slot of the next higher level. The scale isn't quite so steep now. Perhaps a 2/4 or 3/3 combo is a good place to begin if one wishes to achieve a level 5 result. I'd have to spend some time on it.

    The idea is essentially if one character takes no other action the other gains a bonus, even though mechanically both are acting together. Adjudicating that bonus by spell slots is but one potential method.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    So what about something like this?

    Rumble and Grumble
    Level X
    Casting time: 1 standard action (or see text)
    Area: See text
    Saving throw:Reflex partial or Will partial
    SR: No

    This spell has two effects, you choose one to use when you cast it.

    Rumble: You stomp on the ground and cause a wave of vibrations that cause the ground to twist and move. Anyone in a 20 foot cone is pushed 10 feet away from you in any direction and is knocked prone, taking 1d6 bludgeoning damage. A reflex save negates movement and damage but not the prone. Quadrapeds or creatures that are exceptionally sturdy like dwarves, receive a +2 to their save.

    Grumble: You cause the ground to grind together briefly, causing a low sonic wave. Anyone in a 30 foot radius centered on you takes 3d6 non lethal damage and is tuned for 1 round. A successful Will save negates the stun and halves the damage. Creatures that cannot hear are are immune to the stunning but not the damage. Creatures with tremorsense take an additional 1d6 damage.

    Special: If an ally casts this spell, while you have it prepared or known, you may immediately cast the effect they did not choose. Normal rules for spellcasting apply to you. When this happens, you use the higher of you and your ally's stats to determine saves. This is treated as one spell, not two separate spells. You must be within 15 feet of each other to combine cast this spell. You are immune to your ally's effect when combine casting this way. This uses up a spell slot or expands a prepared spell like normal. When combine casted, this spells ranges are increased by 10 feet each and the damage for both effects is increased by 1d6.




    I think this would be a pretty cool spell, though obviously just kind of thrown together. This "Combine casting" could be added to a bunch of spells, allowing you to shrink a spell list but still have a lot of flexibility. You could also have spells that take a few rounds to cast but are faster if combine casted pr ones that are way more powerful, etc.

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    It also could be that the Slot A and Tab B parts are the same spell as far as spells known limits go, differing only in the role each plays.
    Do you have your heart set on there being two versions (A and B) of the spell, or could it just be the same spell and the casters decide who will play each role during casting?
    You are usually a more careful reader than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    It is a requirement of the spell, rather than the spellcasting system?
    I was thinking the spell, though it might require some house ruling of the system to allow for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by XionUnborn01 View Post
    So what about something like this?

    Rumble and Grumble...
    Yes, that's along the sort of lines.

    Here's another quick sketch of a combination that I thought of while I was eating lunch.

    Gateway
    Level: Sor/Wiz 6
    Duration 1 hour/CL (See below)
    Casting time: 10 minutes
    Range: (Total CL)2 miles

    With two casters working remotely but in concert, an enduring teleportation gateway is created. The two casters must act together to cast this spell; each one uses a prepared spell/spell slot to do so. The two casters must be within a number of miles of each other equal to the square of their combined cater levels.

    When one caster begins, the other must also begin within one round, making some means of coordination essential. Once both casters have begun, the working of the spell itself allows them to continue with all the precision necessary. Casting takes 10 minutes, at the end of which there is a gateway created at each caster's location, which are linked together allowing teleportation in either direction between them for the duration of the spell. The duration of 1 hour/CL is dictated by the greater CL of the two.

    The gateway can be made permanent, requiring that separate Permanency spells be cast simultaneously at both ends.

    Originally I envisioned two casters standing together doing something that one alone could not, but this example makes sense because what one person can't do is be in two places.
    -- Joe
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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    What about spells that cause damage to the caster, with the ability to divide this between everyone taking part? So a single caster would have difficulty casting such a spell, but a group could work together to take the backlash.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    Some interesting ideas. They don't quite hit the note I'm looking for, and that doesn't detract from them for what they are.

    What I'm thinking of goes more like this:
    • Jack prepares a fourth level spell called Awesome Spell Slot A
    • Jill prepares the fourth level spell Awesome Spell Tab B
    • Later, Jack and Jill face each other (or stand back to back or join hands or whatever; maybe even far apart but coordinated by some means) and both start casting the combined Awesome Spell, a thing which, for some reason, no single caster could accomplish. The overall power level should be comparable to a fifth level spell, maybe even sixth, but the specific effect is something that simply requires two casters.

    The foregoing, obviously, is framed in D&D-like terms, but I'd be interested in ideas for any system. It also could be that the Slot A and Tab B parts are the same spell as far as spells known limits go, differing only in the role each plays.
    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    Here's another quick sketch of a combination that I thought of while I was eating lunch.

    Gateway
    Level: Sor/Wiz 6
    Duration 1 hour/CL (See below)
    Casting time: 10 minutes
    Range: (Total CL)2 miles

    With two casters working remotely but in concert, an enduring teleportation gateway is created. The two casters must act together to cast this spell; each one uses a prepared spell/spell slot to do so. The two casters must be within a number of miles of each other equal to the square of their combined cater levels.

    When one caster begins, the other must also begin within one round, making some means of coordination essential. Once both casters have begun, the working of the spell itself allows them to continue with all the precision necessary. Casting takes 10 minutes, at the end of which there is a gateway created at each caster's location, which are linked together allowing teleportation in either direction between them for the duration of the spell. The duration of 1 hour/CL is dictated by the greater CL of the two.

    The gateway can be made permanent, requiring that separate Permanency spells be cast simultaneously at both ends.

    Originally I envisioned two casters standing together doing something that one alone could not, but this example makes sense because what one person can't do is be in two places.

    it sounds almost like you want there to be a charge time like solar beam in pokemon so that the casters can sync up with each other. as such you could use the person who goes first essentially wait with their spell held ready while still taking the rest of their turn and then the player who goes second would cast his/her spell into the first players on their turn. that way neither player is wasting a turn just waiting. If you want another example of a charge time mechanic to look at, you could look at casting times in final fantasy tactics. anyway a long range portal thing like what you describe would also be interesting.

    an exmaple would be
    jack prepares to cast lightning bolt (a ball of electricity floats in his hand)
    jill casts lightning bolt into jack's spell (line into the electricity ball)
    jack as the original caster/focus chooses the target of the combined spell but it is cast when jill casts her part.
    the spell at this point is powered up in some way.

    as part of it maybe when jill casts hers it can deal damage to enemies between her and jack but the line of lightning bolt stops at jack. (i just had an idea of both of them preping lightning bold and then casting an additional one between them and some how do a ping pong/tennis match with a lightning bolt)

    hope my input helps
    Last edited by KittenMagician; 2018-07-27 at 03:19 PM.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    I think it might be worth developing a whole set of Dualcast spells. Then you can make Dualcast an actual in game term, with general rules for how they work and then every spell can also list specifics.

    Like maybe there's a burning hands like spell that can be dualcast if the casters are side by side. If its dual cast, it makes a full ring of fire around them instead of a cone.

    Or a dualcast meteor swarm like spell that gains the ability to knock back the target with every hit.

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    Gateway
    Level: Sor/Wiz 6
    Duration 1 hour/CL (See below)
    Casting time: 10 minutes
    Range: (Total CL)2 miles

    With two casters working remotely but in concert, an enduring teleportation gateway is created. The two casters must act together to cast this spell; each one uses a prepared spell/spell slot to do so. The two casters must be within a number of miles of each other equal to the square of their combined cater levels.

    When one caster begins, the other must also begin within one round, making some means of coordination essential. Once both casters have begun, the working of the spell itself allows them to continue with all the precision necessary. Casting takes 10 minutes, at the end of which there is a gateway created at each caster's location, which are linked together allowing teleportation in either direction between them for the duration of the spell. The duration of 1 hour/CL is dictated by the greater CL of the two.

    The gateway can be made permanent, requiring that separate Permanency spells be cast simultaneously at both ends.

    Originally I envisioned two casters standing together doing something that one alone could not, but this example makes sense because what one person can't do is be in two places.

    I happen to have something along these lines . . .


    Duel Dome
    Universal
    Level: Sorc/Wiz 8
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 round
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Area: 60' diameter dome
    Duration: 1 hour
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    This specialized spell is used for resolving conflicts between two parties. The effect of this spell may only come to be when two mages cast it simultaneously.
    The area to be affected must contain two parties of sentient beings who are willing to duel each other to the death.
    The spellcasters must genuinely believe without a shadow of a doubt that this is the case at the moment of casting or the spell fails.
    The area may contain no other living/construct/undead/conjured/called/summoned/animated creatures of any sort or the spell fails.
    Upon completion of the spell, an impregnable and opaque dome is formed. The dome contains illumination equivalent to Light spell and may not be entered, exited, penetrated, or prematurely ended by any mortal means whatsoever (including anti-magic and disjunction).
    The dome persists until one of the parties is dead or an hour has passed. In the latter case, both parties are disintegrated with no save allowed and any SR is ignored.



    Regardless of the above, it would be interesting to see spells that require two different types of magic (arcane and divine) to execute, including the possibility of a spellcaster that has access to a given SL in both arcane and divine classes and may cast both "ingredients" simultaneously (maybe with a longer casting time when acting solo).
    I'm curious to see what kind of effects could require such unorthodox means.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Lightbulb Re: Dual Magic

    Flanking Fire
    Evocation
    Sor/Wiz 3
    V,S,M
    Casting time 1 action by two casters
    Range 30feet
    Area of Effect: up to 1 target per 3 combined caster levels within 100 feet of either caster
    Save: none

    For this spell to be cast there must be a minimum of 10 feet between the two casters and a maximum of 30 feet between them.

    Each caster gains the ability to launch one flaming dart (1d6+1) per three caster levels. Each dart may be individually targeted at anything in its range, and if one strikes a flammable object it may set it on fire. These darts fly unerringly toward their targets and hit automatically. They do not bypass Damage Reduction or Fire Resistance. When both casters target the same opponent each dart that strikes a mutual target inflicts double damage.

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Take a slight deviationfrom D&D's view of undead and healing magic. As a new paradigm:
    • The use of divine magic can, among other things, manipulate life energy.
      • For the Cure spells, the caster infuses the recipient with life energy, directed it where it is most needed.
      • Their reverses, the Inflict spells, drain small amounts of life energy from their victims.
      • Thus, whether Cure or Inflict, the divine caster is using magic centered on life energy.
    • The undead are animated by necroantic energy, which is the exclusive province of the arcane.
      • Since they neither contain nor require life energy, neither Cure nor Inflict spells have any effect on them.

    (I promise, there's a point coming.)
    So, what if you want to heal, say, a vampire? You create a dual spell, wherein an arcane caster (probably a necromancer) calls forth energy and "hands it off" to a cleric. The cleric directs the energy, shaping and applying it as he would life energy to heal the living.

    The cleric's life energy can't help the vampire, and the necromancer's tool bag doesn't include any healing, so neither could heal a vampire; it's something they can only do together.
    -- Joe
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    You are completely welcome to use anything I post here, or I wouldn't post it.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    You are usually a more careful reader than that.
    Whoops, I even quoted it too. Sorry :D

    I quite liked your "caster level squared" idea - very much "a whole greater than the sum of its parts". Here's a quick generalised feat along those lines:

    Dual Magic
    By working in concert with another spellcaster, your combined magic becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

    Prerequisites
    Caster level 1st.

    Benefits
    Whenever you cast a spell, you may enlist the aid of an ally to cast it as a dual spell. The caster level of a dual spell is equal to your caster level multiplied by the caster level of the ally, to a maximum value as given below. This modified caster level is still subject to any other limits of the spell (i.e. a dual fireball is still limited to dealing a maximum of 10d6 damage).

    Spell Level Maximum Caster Level
    0th-1st 25
    2nd-3rd 100
    4th-5th 225
    6th-7th 400
    8th-9th 625

    The saving throw DC (if any) against a dual spell is increased by your ally's relevant spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma for bards and sorcerers, Intelligence for wizards, and Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers).

    The casting time of a dual spell is increased to a full-round action (or longer, if the spell already has a longer spellcasting time). Your ally must be within 10 feet of you during the spellcasting and must forfeit their own actions as well. If either of you is slain or otherwise incapacitated during the casting, the spell fails.

    Your ally must forfeit a spell slot of equal or greater level than the dual spell, but need not be of the same class or even the same spellcaster type (arcane or divine) as yourself.

    Special
    A wizard may select Dual Magic as a bonus wizard feat.
    Last edited by rferries; 2018-07-28 at 09:37 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    nonsi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Whoops, I even quoted it too. Sorry :D

    I quite liked your "caster level squared" idea - very much "a whole greater than the sum of its parts". Here's a quick generalised feat along those lines:

    Dual Magic
    By working in concert with another spellcaster, your combined magic becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

    Prerequisites
    Caster level 1st.

    Benefits
    Whenever you cast a spell, you may enlist the aid of an ally to cast it as a dual spell. The caster level of a dual spell is equal to your caster level multiplied by the caster level of the ally, to a maximum value as given below. This modified caster level is still subject to any other limits of the spell (i.e. a dual fireball is still limited to dealing a maximum of 10d6 damage).

    Spell Level Maximum Caster Level
    0th-1st 25
    2nd-3rd 100
    4th-5th 225
    6th-7th 400
    8th-9th 625

    The saving throw DC (if any) against a dual spell is increased by your ally's relevant spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma for bards and sorcerers, Intelligence for wizards, and Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers).

    The casting time of a dual spell is increased to a full-round action (or longer, if the spell already has a longer spellcasting time). Your ally must be within 10 feet of you during the spellcasting and must forfeit their own actions as well. If either of you is slain or otherwise incapacitated during the casting, the spell fails.

    Your ally must forfeit a spell slot of equal or greater level than the dual spell, but need not be of the same class or even the same spellcaster type (arcane or divine) as yourself.

    Special
    A wizard may select Dual Magic as a bonus wizard feat.
    I believe that such CL inflation would quickly prove to be problematic in terms of ranges, damage dice, duration, #affected etc.

    Since there are already countless ways of pushing numbers up, seems to me like the main goal of this thread was to produce entirely new effects - such that are simply impossible with the regular spellcasting rules.

  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by jqavins View Post
    Take a slight deviationfrom D&D's view of undead and healing magic. As a new paradigm:
    • The use of divine magic can, among other things, manipulate life energy.
      • For the Cure spells, the caster infuses the recipient with life energy, directed it where it is most needed.
      • Their reverses, the Inflict spells, drain small amounts of life energy from their victims.
      • Thus, whether Cure or Inflict, the divine caster is using magic centered on life energy.
    • The undead are animated by necroantic energy, which is the exclusive province of the arcane.
      • Since they neither contain nor require life energy, neither Cure nor Inflict spells have any effect on them.

    (I promise, there's a point coming.)
    So, what if you want to heal, say, a vampire? You create a dual spell, wherein an arcane caster (probably a necromancer) calls forth energy and "hands it off" to a cleric. The cleric directs the energy, shaping and applying it as he would life energy to heal the living.

    The cleric's life energy can't help the vampire, and the necromancer's tool bag doesn't include any healing, so neither could heal a vampire; it's something they can only do together.

    Great. Now let's see where this could go without shifting game design paradigms.

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I believe that such CL inflation would quickly prove to be problematic in terms of ranges, damage dice, duration, #affected etc.

    Since there are already countless ways of pushing numbers up, seems to me like the main goal of this thread was to produce entirely new effects - such that are simply impossible with the regular spellcasting rules.
    Fair point! I left a clause in about respecting inherent limits (damage caps etc) so I think it's balanced overall - perhaps most useful on battlefields for dual spells of walls of fire/stone etc. As for "new" effects, I'll cross-post a spell somewhat along these lines. Could be adapted to affect only 2 characters etc, in keeping with the post theme.

    Gestalt
    Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
    Level: Cleric 3, Wizard 3
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 10 minutes
    Range: See text
    Target: See text
    Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
    Save: Will negates (harmless)
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

    Your party fighter stands in the villain's den, outnumbered and outdone. Suddenly your power reaches from leagues away to imbue her; she now possesses not only her own strength, but your sorcery, the rogue's cunning, and the cleric's faith.

    This spell imbues a willing creature (hereby referred to as the "champion") with the combined powers of yourself and up to three other willing creatures of the same creature type (hereby referred to as the "allies").

    The champion may be any distance from you when you cast the spell, even on a different plane. You and all allies must be within touch range when you cast the spell and are rendered unconscious for the duration, or until the champion chooses to dismiss the spell.

    The spell grants the following benefits:

    Gestalt Statistics
    For almost all purposes, the champion uses her own statistics or those of any of her allies, whichever is better. This applies to ability scores, Hit Dice (both number and size), base attack bonus, base saves, skill ranks, and caster level. She gains the feats, languages known, class features, weapon and armour proficiencies, and racial traits of all of her allies in addition to her own.

    Aid Another
    For each ally, the champion gains a +2 untyped bonus to her attack rolls, Armour Class, ability checks (including initiative checks), and skill checks.

    Attacks
    The champion may make a full attack as a standard action. She makes all iterative attacks during a full attack at her full base attack bonus.

    Spellcasting
    The champion may cast any spell that she or any of her allies could cast, expending her own spell slot or that of the ally whose spell she is casting. The first spell she casts each round is automatically Quickened without applying a metamagic adjustment (provided it has a casting time of 1 standard action or less). She may not cast more than one spell per round drawn from the same character (herself or an ally), unless that character could already cast an additional Quickened spell.

    Whenever the champion casts a spell with an XP cost, that cost is shared evenly by herself and all allies. Whenever she casts a spell with a material component or focus, that material component or focus must be in contact with herself or any of her (unconscious) allies.

    Magic Items
    The champion retains the benefits of any magic items she is wearing, and the benefits of any magic items worn by her allies that enhance their statistics (and therefore her statistics, as mentioned under Gestalt Statistics above).

    Health
    Any damage dealt to the champion is distributed evenly between herself and all her allies. If this would reduce an ally below 1 hit point, the damage is redistributed amongst the champion and the other allies. If all allies have been reduced to 1 hit point, the champion suffers full damage.

    The champion heals hit points and ability damage every hour rather than every day.

    Death
    If any ally is slain, the spell ends immediately. If the champion is slain, the spell ends and each ally gains a negative level.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    I think you'd have more luck by mixing and matching existing spells into existing combinations

    For example, a pair of casters making a Wall of Lava by simultaneously casting Wall of Fire and Wall of Stone simultaneously.

    They do this in the Godsfall podcast, a custom 5e world with available worldbook. Each "godling" character has a divinity score that gives them spell-like abilities that they can bridge between each other to combine effects.

    For example, a character with Dimension door could bridge with a character with clairvoyance to give the teleportation a 1 mile range, or bridge with a character with scrying to teleport to their target.
    A character with Mass suggestion could bridge with a character casting Enemies abound to make everyone in an 120 ft range think they're surrounded by enemies for an entire day.
    Anything bridged with a Dream spell could potentially be terrifying or freakin' amazing.
    Last edited by Vogie; 2018-07-28 at 01:28 PM.
    Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    ... does this stuff just come naturally to you? Do you even have to try anymore xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Vogie is the sh**. I don't really have anything to contribute to the topic, just wanted to point that out.

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    I think you'd have more luck by mixing and matching existing spells into existing combinations

    For example, a pair of casters making a Wall of Lava by simultaneously casting Wall of Fire and Wall of Stone simultaneously.

    They do this in the Godsfall podcast, a custom 5e world with available worldbook. Each "godling" character has a divinity score that gives them spell-like abilities that they can bridge between each other to combine effects.

    For example, a character with Dimension door could bridge with a character with clairvoyance to give the teleportation a 1 mile range, or bridge with a character with scrying to teleport to their target.
    A character with Mass suggestion could bridge with a character casting Enemies abound to make everyone in an 120 ft range think they're surrounded by enemies for an entire day.
    Anything bridged with a Dream spell could potentially be terrifying or freakin' amazing.
    Now this I like! Would require quite a bit of work but would be great fun.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: Dual Magic

    For one of my homebrews, I had an idea for a spell that creates a construct from a list. One caster creates the body, the other (which might belong to a different class) binds an elemental spirit to the body. A character who is alone can still create a construct, but would need to multiclass to create rarer construct types. Feel free to borrow that idea.

    Alternatively, some exotic races might have created spells that require three or more hands to perform the somatic component (this works best if your setting treats somatic components as hand seals). Humanoid casters would thus need to pair up to cast these spells, unless they have Still Spell. The third hand might not be important to the spell's effect; the spells has an harder somatic component. and that's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    "I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!")
    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    So the real question is, what is a Ling?

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