OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[Darkhands]

I can tell that you've been waiting almost 15 years to post this strip, Rich. Thanks. :)

[rasborry]

That was amazing...

I've been reading this comic for years, and now I felt like making an account to comment on it. What a twist. Things beautifully culminated to this point. I have no idea where this is going next.

[wRAR]

Just because we don't see the vampires who get staked misting doesn't mean they didn't.

They shouldn't per the rules as I understand them.

[Hunter Noventa]

Wow. Just wow. I don't normally post in the comic threads but wow.

Of course all I can think of now is...

"Take this! My happiness! My peace! My contentment! Erupting Memory Finger!"

[LasVegasLawyer]

This is magnificent. Just wonderful storytelling.

Also, Belmar has taken several actions but doesn't seem to be taking any damage from his Protection from Evil item that Mr. Scruffy activates.

I could be wrong. I nearly always am.

[wRAR]

This is magnificent. Just wonderful storytelling.

Also, Belmar has taken several actions but doesn't seem to be taking any damage from his Protection from Evil item that Mr. Scruffy activates.

I could be wrong. I nearly always am.

I think it just hurts but doesn't do damage.

[Calmen1]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

We don´t know how vamping happens with other races. But Malack specifically told Durkon that ressurrecting him would be the same as killing the person he was as undead. He said that the lizard-shaman he was before being vamped was not who he is.

[IceFox30]

As some other people have already done, after reading the comic for I don't know how many years, I made an account today, at 1130, just to post a comment.

Well done, sir. This moment has brought a tear to my eye, an incredible piece of storytelling so long in the making. There's no way for me to properly explain how I feel. Truly well done.

[Unoriginal]

Well, that was an exceptionally great few pages.

Up until the last panel.

I'm sorry to say but... it kinda ruins the whole thing for me.

I can't buy the vampire spirit and Durkon are the same person. Maybe the vampire was Durkon at his worse day at the start, but they've "lived" different experiences. Durkon has spent the last weeks/days imprisoned in his own body, and the vampire has spent that time going around, serving as jailer for Durkon, manipulating people, killing them, worshiping Hel, and the like.

Different perspectives, different experiences.

An evil spirit who's unable to grow being paralyzed by not understanding an act of pure selflessness which was fundamental in shaping who the person they're based on is? That's great. Pretty nice take on the concept, and done magnificent well.

The evil spirit becoming the person because they've absorbed the memories of said person? I can't get behind that. Especially because we were told before that the mental space in which the host and the parasite spirit discuss moves much faster than the outside time (if the vampire was unable to get the epiphany, it'd justify why its paralyzed in real time, while here the vampire do get the epiphany), and because Malack was pretty clear he was a different being for his original host even after absorbing all the memories (granted, it could have been only his perception of the issue, but all the other vampires who talked of the issue before seemed to agree).


Also, it kind of runs into the same problems that Harry Potter did with how it portrayed Lily's sacrifice. To explain myself: how come so few people know that a wiazrd/witch sacrificing themselves for someone else due to love grants protection? Sure, Lily Potter did a selfless sacrifice, but *a lot* of people in the world and in history have done that kind of things for the sake of their children or other beloved. Yet it's portrayed as if Harry is the only one in Magic England (or even the Magic World) who had someone sacrifice themselves like that, up until the last book where Harry's sacrifice protects one whole side of a battle, to the point most people don't know it's even possible and even the scholars regularly forget it's possible.

Here, it's kinda the same problem. Did no good person who had their identity shaped by a great tragedy which nevertheless pushed them to do good thing get turned into a vampire before? Is "getting talked into an existential crisis by the host" not among the main things a vampire should fear, hubris or not? Is the goddess of Death and Undead unaware that if a vampire absorb both the positive and the negative memories they become the person they're parasiting?

Again, this is only my opinion. Everything was incredible until that last panel. And I'm left puzzled.

[Arrghus]

It's like Durkula said. They're the same person. They always were. One of them was just... selectively the same person. And now he isn't.

I wonder what Hilgya has to say about all this.

[factotum]

We don´t know how vamping happens with other races. But Malack specifically told Durkon that ressurrecting him would be the same as killing the person he was as undead. He said that the lizard-shaman he was before being vamped was not who he is.

Again, though, we're talking about a 200 year difference here. If I die aged 80, and then someone resurrects the 20-year-old me, they're not really resurrecting *me*, they're resurrecting the person I was 60 years before I died. Same with Malack--if you resurrect the original shaman he was before being vamped, you're erasing 200 years of experience and effectively bringing back a different person, even if the two were at one point identical.

(Note I'm not saying that Malack ever *was* identical to his living self--I think that rather unlikely, to be honest--just that we can't say whether he was or not from that statement).

[Talion]

This also certainly puts into perspective what happened to Malack. Did he go through the same epiphany as Greg and actually was the same person in undeath as he was in life? Or is it getting all the memories at once after an overload of feelings that breaks the vampire spirit?

It really comes down to a combination of things. How long he took to review the memories. If actually reviewed all of them, or let a few slide here and there. The original Malack's alignment. How old Malack was when he became a vampire. If that transformation was willing in any way, or accidental. How much Malack the vampire grew as a person through his own experiences over the two centuries that he preserved himself for (which, at this time at least, makes him more successful than Xykon himself in the preservation department). Whatever his circumstances, Malack had ample time to become his own person, epiphany or no.

In many respects, Malack was an exceptional, and successful, vampire. If there were anyone who could be counted as an absolute authority on them in the world of the OotS, it would be him. Unfortunately, unless he took the time to complete a lengthy memoir of his experiences and thoughts on the subject, all that expertise on vampire philosophy and psychology is lost amidst the sands of the great barren desert of the western continent. While the original Malack may have had his own insights to bring to the table (assuming that after all that time there was still a meaningful distinction of any kind), there isn't even a means to Speak with Dead to him about it. Which is in its own way rather unfortunate, as the data from such an experience would be very beneficial to the world as a whole.

With that in mind, it would certainly have been interesting to see what Durkula would have become under Malack's tutelage/thralldom, rather than being set loose mere hours after being instant-vamped instead of naturally vamped and forced to scramble and think on his feet while enacting an apocalypse scenario of his own. Interesting, but certainly not Good (tm).

[Anarion]

Wow. I’ve been following this comic a long time and this is just, wow. I’m very excited for this comic and for where this is going. Though I put my money on this being temporary, at best.

[Toper]

This is so good, I love everything about it.

[Resileaf]

In many respects, Malack was an exceptional, and successful, vampire. If there were anyone who could be counted as an absolute authority on them in the world of the OotS, it would be him. Unfortunately, unless he took the time to complete a lengthy memoir of his experiences and thoughts on the subject, all that expertise on vampire philosophy and psychology is lost amidst the sands of the great barren desert of the western continent. While the original Malack may have had his own insights to bring to the table (assuming that after all that time there was still a meaningful distinction of any kind), there isn't even a means to Speak with Dead to him about it. Which is in its own way rather unfortunate, as the data from such an experience would be very beneficial to the world as a whole.

Y'know, a memoir from Malack would be fascinating. I didn't know I wanted it until just now.

[PlaguetheRoamer]

Dear Rich,
At the risk of sounding too hyperbolic, never in my life did I think I would get the chance to relive the moment I read the finale of Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett. Thank you so very much. These last two pages have been storytelling masterpieces. I'll basically be recommending your comic to anyone I cross that wants to get into a fantasy saga from now on. You just ticked a crucial box.

[kivzirrum]

This comic hit me hard, for a variety of reasons.

I've been reading OotS for 12 years, but this is the first strip to make me feel like this (which I guess is appropriate, given the events of it).

[BaronOfHell]

But doesn't Greg have a separate consciousness of his own? And does that consciousness continue to exist independently or does it merge with Durkon's mind? And what happens to Greg's personality as High Priest of Hel - certainly, it was short-lived, but it existed. Does it simply get erased or does it combine with Durkon's own somehow?

Interesting point, but if it doesn't get touched upon, then I wouldn't mind either way.

[Peelee]

They shouldn't per the rules as I understand them.

Wheeeeeee!

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

[littlebum2002]

I guess he succeeded on his "Turn Undead" roll?

[Kish]

I don't really think the Granny Weatherwax comparison holds anyway. She uses magic to turn vampire mind control back on them; it's related to her ability to "borrow" animals' bodies. If she wasn't a powerful witch the vampires wouldn't be interacting with her memories, any more than the OotS vampires are currently being influenced by Elan, Haley, and Hilgya's memories. This is about Greg, as a newborn dark spirit, incorrectly thinking that what he had seen automatically--Durkon's worst day--was the only thing that had moral weight, and thus that it was logical and viable to exist as what Durkon would have been if the despair and rage he had felt then was all he had ever felt, and he could absorb the rest of Durkon's memories and not arrive at where Durkon arrived with them. The Exarch, right now, feels what Gontor felt when he was going along with his arranged marriage; he doesn't realize that, as he absorbs more memories, he'll inevitably come to understand why Gontor left to join the Creed of the Stone.

Going by the example of Malack, I would guess that if an OotS-verse-vampire doesn't demand the memories in any particular order (perhaps automatically during the normal three-day resting period before rising), the vampire gets all the memories in such an order that the negative emotions are highlighted and the positive ones presented largely disconnected from support. The vampire ultimately is the original person--in a sense--and has complete moral choice, but is still substantially more likely to be evil than they were as a living being who experienced all their experiences in chronological order. But they'll never feel the total disconnect and contempt for the host that Greg's been showing up to now. This was entirely predictable with information that someone who had thousands of years to closely observe vampires should have had, but Hel, just like real-world narcissists, is incapable of more than the more superficial understanding of how anyone else's mind works.

[Pampukin]

This is the way to start a friday! Awesome work!!
I would also think Belkar is going to kill the vampire, but in front of his child? Im doubtfull, plus Hylga is still there, there is more to this climax coming, I think.I wonder if she will be contempt with Durkon being vampire slayed. I just hope she prepared raise dead for the blonde priestess (I forgot her name).

[Throknor]

In regards to Malack, recall that Ponchella said her original personality was in agreement with her new one. The original Malack may have been different from the vampire but he wasn't necessarily the embodiment of Lawful Good that Durkon is. Hel used Durkon's worst day to make a vampire and it was that day that made Durkon the dwarf he is.

I don't know how he'll talk Belkar down but this is Durkon's book. One of him will somehow deal with stopping the Exarch, with or without the Order's help. Heck, besides Belkar he still needs to deal with Hilgya. There's a chance an apology will work with Belkar, since Durkon can understand why he's mad and possibly relate and he has time to discuss it with the shield up. Hilgya is going to be trickier to talk down, between her past feelings and the new humiliation of the Domination.

Unless he is just bumped to Lawful-Neutral, in which case he can just vamp them both. But I'm not putting money on that.

[Rrmcklin]

To everyone saying Ponchella got staked: she turned to mist when she died. All the vampires who got staked got X's in their eyes, and didn't turn to mist. So my thought is that she wasn't staked.

Whenever any of the vampires have been slain they've always gotten the Xs in their eyes, then turned to mist. It says nothing about how they died.

[Kashem]

I'm assuming that what Belkar did to Ponchula was more or less a Coup De Grace, because she paying no attention at all.

Also, I was wondering if we might get a recurrence of "Hit the negative energy spirits with positivity" like Elan did. Beautifully done Giant.
This comic also shows an interesting stance on nature vs. nurture. This is fundamentally an argument that there basically is no inherent nature to Greg that is different from Durkon.
Also, I'm pretty sure we are about to see the culmination of Belkar and Durkon and the potentially impending alignment change from Belkar.

These last 10 pages or so have been amazing. Great work Giant.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation fame says ironically, I say with conviction.

ALL MY CHRISTMASES HAVE COME AT ONCE!!!


And, coincidentally, all of Durkon's holy days have come for the unholy version of him.

That's gotta sting!

Best comic of all time!!!!

[masonwheeler]

Can't wait for Hel's reaction. She can't even do vampires right
Though I guess the point here is that trying to corrupt a soul as pure as Durkon's was a losing proposition to begin with.

Rich's time-honoreed tradition of "fantasy is a tool for teaching us about our own humanity" continues. "Ye are who ye are on the NEXT day" indeed

Pendell may have looked at this and been reminded of Terry Pratchett, but what I thought of when I saw this line here was a very different fantasy author: this is quite similar to one of the strongest events that occurs at the climax of Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer. One of the main characters has a very important epiphany along these same lines during a confrontation with a major bad guy. There's more to the similarities than that, but I wouldn't want to spoil it for those who haven't read it. (And if you haven't, you totally should! The Stormlight Archive series is an absolute masterpiece.)

[fishhead202]

Well, that was pretty cool!

Really hoping that they don't straight up kill Durkon. I know it'll be practically impossible to convince them that he's got control back, but I hope we can get the order back together on the same side.

[Leirus]

So now what? Will the vampire resurrect himself? And is this why they needed unassuming, pasive Durkon in the order? I doubt many other clerics would have managed this feat.

[Yana]

I am thou... Thou art I.