OOTS #1130 - The Discussion Thread

[theMycon]

Really, Ponchella? What good would Harm have done there?

"I'm going to make you have 1 HP for real real, not just 1 HP for play play". GREAT use of what could've been your only action.

[AchtungNight]

My own two points to put in-

- Scruffy did wake Belkar by activating the clasp. It put Belkar in sudden pain and effectively slapped him awake. I cheered when I saw it, and when he raged.

- Regarding Durkon’s epiphany- let’s not forget that Durkon’s a stubborn a-hole, perhaps the most stubborn a-hole a negative energy spirit has ever dealt with. If you look back through the strips since he was vamped and his inner soul struggling was revealed, you can see Durkon continue to be this stubborn a-hole through every one of Greg’s defense mechanisms. Denial, bargaining, being evil, Durkon has stood up to all that and more from Greg over and over again. And he also has the arguably very unique experience of benefitting his entire life from a very unselfish act. It’s easy for a bad person to reject a good deed as ultimately beneficial on a lasting basis when the helper just helps you and then walks away. But when a person sticks around and pays it forward to the degree Durkon’s family did? When his mother presumably did the same? It’s easy to be evil and just kill, dominate, bribe, mock, etc the people who wrong you or who make your world not make sense or who make your life harder. Easy to reject them too. But Durkon does the opposite- and stubbornly too. And Greg can’t get rid of the troublesome person in his own soul when Durkon refuses to die.

That said, we can’t forget that we haven’t seen the effects of this epiphany in the world outside Durkon’s mind yet. His mind may be his, but his body’s still a vampire. And his inner evil soul may be snapping under the pressure of so many good memories from an unselfish act it still can’t comprehend, but it may be about to reassert itself too. I am eagerly waiting for the next comic however long it takes.

[Mike Havran]

Wonderful.

[Darth Paul]

Hilgya is going to be trickier to talk down, between her past feelings and the new humiliation of the Domination.

Not that kind of Domination. I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself....

[Kish]

"How could you not think about how your selflessness would affect me?!?" (again, as if Belkar is seeing Durkon's thoughts).

Your parentheticals are your choices; if you're choosing to be confused it's your business.

If you want to be not-confused, I suggest you drop the assumption encoded in the parentheticals and read what Belkar's saying as being about what Belkar thinks and feels.

[Ironsmith]

I thought that these memories and dialogues between Durkon and Durkon* happened at the speed of thought, in such a way that no delay could be noticeable.

Also, I thought that the absorption of the host's memories meant eternal dormancy for the host.

Color me confused (I mean, "death and destruction for us all hasn't even happened yet).

The way I understand it, what's going on still takes place at the speed of thought... but just like an exceptionally complicated task can slow down your computer, an exceptionally powerful cocktail of emotions and experiences still takes some time to process through... Durkon's whole life, in fact. Even condensed down to a hundredth of a percent of that time (and assuming around 50 years), that'd take Greg a few hours to sift through. (It looks like it's been condensed down even further to a few minutes, which is still a Hel of a lot faster than it initially happened.) If that doesn't quite do it for you, then it could be that Greg is "conscious" the whole time and fully aware of what's happening, but the epiphany preoccupies him to such a degree that he's choosing not to respond to anything going on outside of his head.

As for eternal dormancy of the host... maybe that's what would have happened, but the only person we've seen say that kind of thing is Greg, who was kinda-sorta just proven wrong (and was only a few days old when he said it). It could just be that becoming the host is the inevitable conclusion; but since the host now has about an extra month or so of blood-fueled debauchery under their belt, they remain evil anyway.

(Also, still plenty of time for death and destruction... Gontor's still in their base, dominating their doods.)

[SunnyFox]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Because Durkon was holding back memories until a chance was offered to use them to revert Greg.

[Perficio]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Quippy answer: It made for a more emotionally tense story, which Elan or Tarquin could remind us is part of how the OOTS universe operates.

[pendell]

And, no doubt, a hundred other authors did something similar before Terry did.




Cite? As far as I know, he has just stated that he hasn't read Terry Pratchett, not that he deliberately avoids him. Nobody could possibly read every book going.

It's been awhile. I remember reading that Rich said on this forum that he had started to read Sir Terry's work, then put it aside for fear it would interfere with what he was trying to do as well. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to research it at the moment. Possibly my memory is incorrect.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Panel 14 shows us both of Belkar's hands, one empty and one holding his dagger. No stake. Cutting off a vampire's head is the same as staking them.... they ded.

From the way the SRD words it, you have to behead it after staking it to "kill it permanently" - a staking doesn't permanently kill the vampire since just removing the stake will bring it back to life.

And in Panel 11, Belkar uses only his dagger (the stake is in his other hand, but is clearly not being used to stab Ponchella.

I assumed he'd stuck the stake most of the way into her back, immediately after panel 11, then removed his hand from the stake (hence it not being visible tucked into his belt, or on the floor, in panel 14) and he shoved it the rest of the way in while finishing the beheading.

Belkar's chest would be acting as "the hammer" in this analog.

[zinycor]

My biggest question is...why now? Why not 30 minutes ago? Or an hour ago? Or yesterday? Or last week?

I don't see any specific reason why waiting until now offered some advantage.

Because now Greg asked for those memories. If Durkon just tried to overload Greg's brain with his memories without Greg's consent, then Greg would be suspicious and wouldn't accept them and wouldn't change.

Greg wanted to understand and change, therefore, He could.

[1130]

I'm speechless.

[hroþila]

This was entirely predictable with information that someone who had thousands of years to closely observe vampires should have had, but Hel, just like real-world narcissists, is incapable of more than the more superficial understanding of how anyone else's mind works.

I don't think this is necessarily fair on Hel. Regardless of how well or how poorly she understood the minds of vampires and the process of vampirization, she had no candidates to be her high priest other than Durkon, and she had no say in how exactly he was vamped (whether he'd be given those three days or not). Hel did make the vampire spirit, but she had to do so in accordance with a pre-existing blueprint that she didn't necessarily design herself or have absolute power over, and that wasn't created specifically to serve her unconditionally and unerringly, but simply to be yet another element in this world.

[chy03001]

Thank you Giant,

You just convinced me to buy the entire series when you've finished it.

Today's page was truly breathtaking.

[SunnyFox]

It's been awhile. I remember reading that Rich said on this forum that he had started to read Sir Terry's work, then put it aside for fear it would interfere with what he was trying to do as well. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to research it at the moment. Possibly my memory is incorrect.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You do realize that signing your posts as "Respecfully, <return> Brian P is entirely redundant, since your username is shown every time you post?

[Sky_Schemer]

Because now Greg asked for those memories. If Durkon just tried to overload Greg's brain with his memories without Greg's consent, then Greg would be suspicious and wouldn't accept them and wouldn't change.

Greg wanted to understand and change, therefore, He could.

Hmm. OK. I buy that Durkon can't just flood memories: Durkula has to ask for them. So the argument here is that Durkula wasn't going to ask about this memory on his own, so he needed a moment when Durkula would let him offer up an arbitrary memory.

This makes sense and I can accept it. It's...maybe a little thin narratively. But it feels consistent.

[Aahz]

Can someone explain the in-game mechanics here? Why did the protection from evil clasp rejuvenate Belkar -- I would have assumed that it would have just protected him from further damage. It looks like it also gave him some kind of extra magical ability, too, based on the green glow.

And what exactly is the anti-life shield/dome thing? Does that protect the vampires from injury, damage living creatures...?

[hamishspence]

The antilife shell prevents living creatures from passing through - but nothing more.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm



The protection from evil spell suppresses the vampire's domination ability over Belkar when activated:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm

[Finagle]

How's Hilgaya standing in the middle of the anti-life field? Is she considered undead while under domination?

[Kish]

The clasp glows because it's causing Belkar pain, just like every previous time he's used it.

Affected by Protection from Evil, he is no longer mind-controlled, for as long as he keeps the Protection from Evil up. As for why he's able to go back to fighting, either he wasn't in negative hit points before, or he's using barbarian rage now (and will quite possibly die when it wears out and he loses the bonus hit points from it).

Anti-Life Shell creates a shell, centered on the caster, which the living cannot pass through in either direction.

[Calmen1]

Again, though, we're talking about a 200 year difference here. If I die aged 80, and then someone resurrects the 20-year-old me, they're not really resurrecting *me*, they're resurrecting the person I was 60 years before I died. Same with Malack--if you resurrect the original shaman he was before being vamped, you're erasing 200 years of experience and effectively bringing back a different person, even if the two were at one point identical.

Well, except Durkon IS experiencing what Durkula is living, right? He sees and feels it, he learns it. He is just not in charge. You are not a 20 years old if you lives for 20 years old than "experiences" another 60 years.

But this is a "Let´s play "Roy" Rick and Morty" discussion.

[Resileaf]

Can someone explain the in-game mechanics here? Why did the protection from evil clasp rejuvenate Belkar -- I would have assumed that it would have just protected him from further damage. It looks like it also gave him some kind of extra magical ability, too, based on the green glow.

And what exactly is the anti-life shield/dome thing? Does that protect the vampires from injury, damage living creatures...?

Protection from evil does not rejuvenate, but Belkar was never hurt in the first place, he was just KOed by Roy in what I assume was a feat because he dealt little damage. But the Giant has decided that an evil creature using a protection spell against their own alignment would be hurt somewhat by it, enough for it to be bothersome, and this is probably what woke Belkar up.
The glow is a visual representation of the spell being active.

The anti-life shell is a wall that only blocks living things from entering it. It deals no damage to the living, it just prevents them from entering it.

[Darth Paul]

A beautiful touch halfway through, as Greg starts talking more like Durkon... foreshadowing the final moment of change.

[SunnyFox]

How's Hilgaya standing in the middle of the anti-life field? Is she considered undead while under domination?

Nope. She was inside the radius when the spell was cast: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html The shield prevents life from entering, it doesn't expel life already within the spell radius.

[pendell]

You do realize that signing your posts as "Respecfully, <return> Brian P is entirely redundant, since your username is shown every time you post?

I am aware. This is how I sign my name on these forums since my join date in 2006. I review every post I make to ensure I can sign that signature truthfully. If I can't, I usually use another adjective.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[georgie_leech]

No doubt everyone is already yelling about what an awesome scene this is for both Belkar and Durkon. So I'm instead going to say, hot DAYUM can Mr. Burlew pull off a splash page.

[ProfLucario]

Oh man.

Oh man, oh man, oh man. I never thought Durkon would be able to retake control, but dang if this wasn't the last thing I expected.

So... first question, do we keep calling the spirit Greg? Or should we call it Durkon? For the purposes of this post I'll stick with Greg, but... wow. The main thing is, though, what happens to Durkon Classic? Does he now pass to oblivion, having effectively been replaced by the not-so-negative-anymore energy spirit? Does he still have miscellaneous memories left over to hold onto?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkula (Greg? Durkon now? Whatever) frees everyone from domination, drops the antilife shell, and then willingly asks to be destroyed and resurrected.

[AlurenDarkfire]

"I don't unnerstand"
That's when I knew what was up. Greg started using Durkon's accent.

[Keltest]

Oh man.

Oh man, oh man, oh man. I never thought Durkon would be able to retake control, but dang if this wasn't the last thing I expected.

So... first question, do we keep calling the spirit Greg? Or should we call it Durkon? For the purposes of this post I'll stick with Greg, but... wow. The main thing is, though, what happens to Durkon Classic? Does he now pass to oblivion, having effectively been replaced by the not-so-negative-anymore energy spirit? Does he still have miscellaneous memories left over to hold onto?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkula (Greg? Durkon now? Whatever) frees everyone from domination, drops the antilife shell, and then willingly asks to be destroyed and resurrected.

That seems likely. Im going to be surprised and more than a little disappointed if he just goes "no, I really am Durkon this time" and the Order just accepts it and lets him stay a vampire.

[Calmen1]

It is not like Durkon is free of his domination. It is just that Durkula feels the same as him, thinks the same as him, knows the same. And that person logically acts the same. This mean he will do his best to acomplishes Durkon goals, which is saving the world and... dying and being ressurrected.

Durkon has a family now. He needs to be alive for Kudzu. I hope Belkar doesn´t believe in Durkula being Durkon and kills him. In this case, Durkula will probably just let Belkar kills him.