Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 155
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ipswich, MA, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    But if previous scenes early in the book went at regular thinking speed, some of them pretty much stop making sense. The vampire's point was that no matter how much Durkon tried to stall, it would have no effect.

    There has to be something else to this beyond simply "turns out the vampire was wrong; Durkon could totally have stalled from the start". Perhaps the vampire was losing his ability to concentrate, perhaps he needed to spend extra time thinking about the memories the regular way or whatever, but I don't believe "thinking does take time" works as an explanation.
    I think thought usually takes a negligible amount of time - little enough that ordinary memories can be viewed in less than a second. I think the actual absorption of memories may take literally zero time, as does ordering Durkon to turn over a given memory. But reflection takes longer. Greg isn't actually able to think for infinite lengths of time in any given round, any more than a regular person could. He can't process information and come to terms with it in the blink of an eye. Hence why he's just standing there right now - he's not spending round after round passively absorbing memories, he's interacting with them, thinking them through.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 13 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    hroşila's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I think thought usually takes a negligible amount of time - little enough that ordinary memories can be viewed in less than a second. I think the actual absorption of memories may take literally zero time, as does ordering Durkon to turn over a given memory. But reflection takes longer. Greg isn't actually able to think for infinite lengths of time in any given round, any more than a regular person could. He can't process information and come to terms with it in the blink of an eye. Hence why he's just standing there right now - he's not spending round after round passively absorbing memories, he's interacting with them, thinking them through.
    I agree that's the most likely explanation, but I'm still not completely sure. I mean, the vampire was not simply lost in thought, as you'd expect, he was positively catatonic there. Although I suppose that can be explained away: by then he was pretty much broken, similar to how Haley just stood there and wouldn't react when her treasure got blown up. But then again, he was catatonic long before he actually broke down. I don't know. Perhaps the next strip will add more info.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2018-07-27 at 05:37 PM.
    ungelic is us

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I guess, in my opinion, you need to step outside of the rules now and then, and this was very masterfully done. Durkon is quite likely the most “good’ and “wise” (combined) characters in the series, and his piety exceeds his faith in Thor. You could not handle such devoutness within the mechanics of the game - “Oh look, he turned undead,” but converting an undead from the inside? That’s worthy of a chapter conclusion.

    What was kind of shocking to me was how much objection there was (within this forum) to the possibility of a resolution such as this when it was being discussed a few weeks/months ago, largely because it was outside of the boundaries of the game’s rules. But every roleplaying game I’ve ever actually enjoyed has been willing to step outside of its rules in certain circumstances.

    Some people even made comments to the effect of “no, it won’t happen that way because it would be bad writing.” It felt like some people felt very strongly that Durkon regaining control in some fashion would be bad because there’s no explanation listed in any 3.5 handbook.
    Within reason, specific plot resolutions are seldom “bad writing,” it’s how they are orchestrated that determines whether the writing is good or bad.

    Anyhow, well played. The last few comics have replaced the siege of Azure City as my favorite sequence ever.
    Last edited by Sloanzilla; 2018-07-27 at 06:22 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Delta's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Southern Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKazum View Post
    Then again, I still think the "gambit" in the comic should be common enough that you'd have lots of non-Evil vampires running around... what do you think?
    This sums up my feeling perfectly (as noted in the comic discussion thread)

    If we look about what Durkon says about "You are who you are on your worst day, but also the person who gets up on the next one..." and so on, it's an awesome and beautiful speech, but he says it himself, that applies to everyone. Durkon isn't special in that regard, so how in the world can this come as a surprise to a being like Greg? If all vampires work like that, that should be kind of like the first thing they learn about people, and it should be common knowledge about vampires that mortals can draw positive things even from their worst experiences.

    I'm not saying everyone should be able to pull off Durkon's gambit, but... I don't know, I fail to see how Durkon's situation right there is so incredibly unique that he could pull off something that no vampire could ever expect, the more I think about it, the more this should be kind of in the "Things to watch out for in your host 101" chapter of "Hel's New Vampire Primer: You're undead now, learn not to live with it!", shouldn't it?
    Last edited by Delta; 2018-07-27 at 07:00 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Titan in the Playground
     
    MesiDoomstalker's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Penthouse Suite
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    This sums up my feeling perfectly (as noted in the comic discussion thread)

    If we look about what Durkon says about "You are who you are on your worst day, but also the person who gets up on the next one..." and so on, it's an awesome and beautiful speech, but he says it himself, that applies to everyone. Durkon isn't special in that regard, so how in the world can this come as a surprise to a being like Greg? If all vampires work like that, that should be kind of like the first thing they learn about people, and it should be common knowledge about vampires that mortals can draw positive things even from their worst experiences.

    I'm not saying everyone should be able to pull off Durkon's gambit, but... I don't know, I fail to see how Durkon's situation right there is so incredibly unique that he could pull off something that no vampire could ever expect, the more I think about it, the more this should be kind of in the "Things to watch out for in your host 101" chapter of "Hel's New Vampire Primer: You're undead now, learn not to live with it!", shouldn't it?
    The difference I believe is that Durkon tricked Durkon* into accepting all his memories all at once as opposed to piecemeal over several months and thus forcing Durkon* to experience Durkon's life firsthand without any ability to interject his individuality and own personality into the process.
    Awesome Avvy by Sizlord!

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I would imagine this doesn't happen to every vampire spirit because every vampire spirit isn't rocked to their core, and then immediately bombarded with their host's entire life in one go.

    Greg himself said that the absorption process usually takes months. Stuff like this is probably at least partially why.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Skyron, Andromeda
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    My guess, as I said in the main discussion thread, is that most vampires absorb these memories over a longer period of then that which the former High Priest of Hel was given, partly because they’re not raised immediately, partly because they didn’t need them at the speed he did, and partly because most don’t ask for all the memories at once. In addition, I think looking at Malack is helpful here. He speaks of “seven brothers...in that dim other life so long past”, but also that resurrecting him “is just a complicated way of annihilating the person [he is] today”. From this, it seems likely that while Malack strongly identified with his host, he also understood that he was not quite the same as his original host.


    Peelee’s Lotsey

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    From this, it seems likely that while Malack strongly identified with his host, he also understood that he was not quite the same as his original host.
    As I keep saying, I don't think that follows. Just (un-)living for 200 years is entirely sufficient to make Malack a different being than his host was, as is supported by the "dim other life so long past" comment.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mightymosy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I don't get what happened.

    Durkula was shown to be UNABLE to connect memories - in other words, Durkon was DIFFERENT in that he WAS ABLE to connect memories, in otver words learn from them.

    So, if Durkula is now FLOODED with all of Durkon's memories, all of a sudden this makes things easier and Durkula learns to become Durkon?

    I would have expected Durkula becoming more of a mess, because UNLIKE Durkon, he is NOT able to properly process the memories.

    I am confused, but maybe that's the whole point of this vampire arc.
    Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
    What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!

    I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.

    I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
    Want to see my prison tatoo?

    *Branded for double posting*
    Sometimes, being bad feels so good.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I think the people who are quoting Malack are missing something: his wording was constructed to avoid revealing that vampire spirits are distinct from their hosts. Villains don't just spoil the plot willy-nilly, as Xykon and Tarquin point out.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    So, if Durkula is now FLOODED with all of Durkon's memories, all of a sudden this makes things easier and Durkula learns to become Durkon?
    I think the idea is that some memories are of Durkon putting other memories in order. Such moments of introspection turn a loose collection of experiences into a coherent self.

    But I am myself confused on how Durkon didn't just give Durkula exacly what the vampire wanted. After talking about making a choice each day and the next, does he consider Durkula's next action to be a foregone conclusion?

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Troll in the Playground
     
    martianmister's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Turkey
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    I don't get what happened.

    Durkula was shown to be UNABLE to connect memories - in other words, Durkon was DIFFERENT in that he WAS ABLE to connect memories, in otver words learn from them.
    I think HPoH was unable to understand the connection between these memories because he didn't have the experience to understand complex turn of events like these. In a way he was like a child, too young to understand.
    Last edited by martianmister; 2018-07-28 at 06:18 AM.
    Spoiler
    Show

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Onyavar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I remember that Undurkon told Durkon that he would eventually absorb all memories in his head and then be done with him.

    However, I don't think that this means that he would really have absorbed all memories. He would have chosen the bad ones to torment Durkon with it and would have sneered at the entire rest (as he sure did with most family memories that Durkon showed him).
    By accessing only some important memories, Undurkon could already successfully impersonate Durkon. He didn't need the rest, and as far as I interpret his intent, he would have forgotten about them entirely while the captive Durkon would have vaned and vanished in hopelessness.

    Instead, Durkon fought.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I'd just like to add... that even if "yer me", he might not... really... be...

    There's still two spirits there, no matter how alike they may become.

    Also, Malack again. Are we safe to assume he had gotten to this full absorption status? Because they passed this "yer me" phase, and if the original soul was still witness to it all... then they'd both share a starting point, and the whole path from it. The whole apart phase would have been but a small bump on the load road of their merged history. Thus, resurrection Malack would bring back the living Malack that was no different than the vampire Malack, because they were identical by then. But that's not what he was saying. And that kind of trumps what is to be expected of undead in general and what's been presented for vampires specifically.
    Attention LotR fans
    Spoiler: LotR
    Show
    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Troll in the Playground
     
    martianmister's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Turkey
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    HPoH already said that Durkon's spirit is supposed to become dormant after he absorbed all of Durkon's memories. So, their spirits merging is out of question.
    Spoiler
    Show

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mightymosy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    I think HPoH was unable to understand the connection between these memories because he didn't have the experience to understand complex turn of events like these. In a way he was like a child, too young to understand.
    And then how doed he become Durkon once he absorbs all at once?

    I don't get it.

    Durkon was special - different to Durkula - in that Durkon WAS able to connect memories and learn from them. Basically connecting and learning from his memories is what MADE him Durkon in the first place.

    So I don't understand how flooding a person who couldn't even connect two memories with millions of memories improves the learning process.

    Say someone doesn't understand how multiplication with bigger numbers work. They can do small numbers, they can do additions, but they can not see how you combine these two methods to make huge multiplications.

    So, you put them into a 3D video room and show them university mathematics courses from all sides.
    And thus they instantly became Stephen Hawking (may he rest in peace)?

    I sincerly don't get this story.
    Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
    What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!

    I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.

    I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
    Want to see my prison tatoo?

    *Branded for double posting*
    Sometimes, being bad feels so good.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    hroşila's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Durkon basically says "I know you're too immature to know how to process this, so I'm going to give you the memories of me processing this so that you can learn from me", and he also points out explicitly the point he's making, so the vampire doesn't really need to come up with the connection himself.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2018-07-28 at 07:55 AM.
    ungelic is us

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Vampires in OotS seem to operate similarly to Vampire: The Masquerade/Requiem vampires with two exceptions:

    1. The Beast is the intelligent variant instead of the default mindless version.
    2. The Beast is in control, while the Man is trapped within.

    In the default game, the Man is in control of the vampire while the Beast struggles within. When the Man grows weak, the Beast Within seizes control and goes on a rampage. However, all sins committed by the Beast count as though the Man did it, i.e. killing an innocent in Frenzy dings your Humanity meter.

    Vampiric ascension, a.k.a. Golconda, is a state where the vampire overcomes his weaknesses and transcends his cursed state.

    No, not by becoming mortal, but by accepting his condition. The Man and the Beast essentially become one, and the vampire need never fear losing control of the Beast ever again.

    Durkon basically achieved Golconda by having his Beast accept the Man Within.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    And then how doed he become Durkon once he absorbs all at once?

    I don't get it.

    Durkon was special - different to Durkula - in that Durkon WAS able to connect memories and learn from them. Basically connecting and learning from his memories is what MADE him Durkon in the first place.

    So I don't understand how flooding a person who couldn't even connect two memories with millions of memories improves the learning process.

    Say someone doesn't understand how multiplication with bigger numbers work. They can do small numbers, they can do additions, but they can not see how you combine these two methods to make huge multiplications.

    So, you put them into a 3D video room and show them university mathematics courses from all sides.
    And thus they instantly became Stephen Hawking (may he rest in peace)?

    I sincerly don't get this story.
    Philosophers have long debated the question of what makes a personality unique. Some say natural inclinations are honed by experience while others say experience defines the individual. Of course there are hundreds of variations on the theme. But experience, to some degree, is accepted as playing some role in the development of a personality.

    Durkula has a few weeks of experience of his own. Durkon just gave him 60+ years of experience in one shot, without giving him the tools to internalize them. The Giant appears to be taking the side of the argument that we are all the sum of our experiences. A few weeks as evil villain + a lifetime as Durkon = Mostly Durkon.

    However, he has not excluded the possibility that there is a core nature that also plays a role. Durkula may be staggered, but he's not down yet. Remember that it was premature gloating that got Cindy in the end.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Troll in the Playground
     
    martianmister's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Turkey
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Durkon was special - different to Durkula - in that Durkon WAS able to connect memories and learn from them. Basically connecting and learning from his memories is what MADE him Durkon in the first place.
    HPoH was unable to connect them not because he's inherently flawed, but because he's not mature and experienced enough to understand them.

    Say someone doesn't understand how multiplication with bigger numbers work. They can do small numbers, they can do additions, but they can not see how you combine these two methods to make huge multiplications.

    So, you put them into a 3D video room and show them university mathematics courses from all sides.
    And thus they instantly became Stephen Hawking (may he rest in peace)?
    Showing complex math problems to a person who don't know about basic math is exactly what happened in HPoH's case. What Durkon did is teaching him his every knowledge about the math, thus giving HPoH ability to solving complex math problems.
    Last edited by martianmister; 2018-07-28 at 08:22 AM.
    Spoiler
    Show

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I've been lurking through a lot of discussion about all this, and had an observation that might help. Apologies in advance if any of this is redundant to other discussion.

    I think a lot of confusion comes from a conclusion that a lot of fans (including, frankly, myself) drew without it necessarily being confirmed. During the frog memory comic, it became clear that Durkula didn't quite understand the link between the two memories. Fans drew the logical conclusion that vampire spirits are just, for whatever reason, unable to connect memories properly and/or unable to see the subtext of memories properly.

    But what if that wasn't an inherent trait of being a vampire spirit necessarily, but rather the result of lacking the life experience of a normal sentient being? After all, there's a reason why children often can't be trusted to understand the nuances of an argument - it takes time to understand just how broad and complicated the world is.

    There's a good reason why Durkon brings up how Sigdi "waited until he was older" to explain all this, after all.

    I also had some thoughts on Durkon's "memory surge", and why it worked for Durkon and but might not have worked for the average vampire. I think it goes beyond just the fact that he was overloaded with so much at once. Durkon couldn't just do this at any random time, and not even just because he might have needed "permission" to (I don't think it's clear exactly how much control Durkula normally has over memory flow, and I don't think it's necessary to know for the story to work). I think it's possible that if Durkon had tried onslaught-uploading his memories at any point before this, Durkula would have been surprised, certainly, but probably would've managed to maintain the presence of mind to sort through them and make sense of them from his own evil point of view, and come out still firmly as Durkula instead of Durkon.

    Instead, Durkon - wise, patient, stubborn Durkon - led him on a journey, using every requested memory as an opportunity to set up the big one. He gave his captor just enough memories and context that Sigdi's Sacrifice had emotional weight, but not any of the memories that would have helped him make sense of those emotions. Like I posited above, dealing with emotions is in part a learned skill, and not one that Durkula has prioritized picking up during his very busy and short unlife.

    As such, he was left overwhelmed, confused, raw, and - most importantly - desperate for help. Durkula wasn't just giving him permission to show memories, he was practically begging him for something he could internalize to relieve him of the emotional turmoil he'd stumbled into. His guard was down.

    To use an analogy: If you place food before your enemy, he may check to see if it is poisoned or rotten, and discard the bits that he knows will harm him. Place that same food in front of the same man when he is starving, and he will likely devour that same feast without such care.

    Now, I don't know about you, but I sincerely doubt I possess the right combination of insight, patience, and self-realization to pull off Durkon's ploy if I were in such a situation. Hel leaped at the opportunity to turn a high-level cleric into one of her pawns, but she had no way of knowing that the cleric in question had the exact set of mental traits necessary to engage in a battle of wills with his own supercharged inner darkness and win.

    ...and on a less-dramatic note, I also imagine that most vampires are not *immediately* thrust into a scenario that requires constant subterfuge and/or combat immediately upon being birthed. Fulfilling Hel's mission required Durkula to tap Durkon for memories far more frequently than, I imagine, the average vampire would need to while chilling around their lair. As such, Durkon had way more opportunities to "prime" Durkula with memories than the average captive-spirit would, methinks.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKazum View Post
    Speaking of which, if I may have a little detour, any takers on a prediction that Belkar at some point stops being hurt by the amulet of Protection Against Evil... even if only for a brief moment, before he dies to save the party vs. Durkula (maybe by destroying the vampire)?
    I'm pretty sure that back when Belkar first connected with Mr.Scruffy, the Giant said (in the books) that Belkar will never be "good". He will always be Belkar. Evil people can still care about stuff.

    He is just less "totally psychotic killing anyone that even looks at him" and more "I can actually feel why that would bother some people"

    That being said, assuming the vampire plot will end here (which it doesn't have to. I was betting on Greg joining Xykon, but the Exarch or any of the vamps in the godsmoot can do that as well), the Clasp is virtually pointless to be seen again.

    I don't think it gives any significant factor in the battle with the original team evil.

    Also, if Belkar will go "all heroic" it is likely to be right before his death which will likely be near the end of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    This sums up my feeling perfectly (as noted in the comic discussion thread)

    If we look about what Durkon says about "You are who you are on your worst day, but also the person who gets up on the next one..." and so on, it's an awesome and beautiful speech, but he says it himself, that applies to everyone. Durkon isn't special in that regard, so how in the world can this come as a surprise to a being like Greg?"
    The point was that he tricked Greg into taking it all at once. Let's try and give you 2 situations:

    1) I create a clone of myself, with my exact memories, experiences, feelings, physical state etc
    2) I create a clone of myself as an infant. He will grow up at a normal rate. He has access to my diaries so he can know everything I know - but he's likely to read it at his own pace.

    Meanwhile, the clone will mature, grow up, he will have my memories from my journals but he will also have his own life experiences from his day to day life.

    Do you think both clones will grow up to be the same? Obviously not.

    Durkon's personality is what brought Greg to the frustration and lack of understanding about human emotions that got him to jump from option 2 to option 1.

    Again, look at the similarity with Belkar's speech during the same moment. Belkar was troubled because Durkon made him think about things - just like he made Greg thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    If all vampires work like that, that should be kind of like the first thing they learn about people, and it should be common knowledge about vampires that mortals can draw positive things even from their worst experiences.

    I'm not saying everyone should be able to pull off Durkon's gambit, but... I don't know, I fail to see how Durkon's situation right there is so incredibly unique that he could pull off something that no vampire could ever expect, the more I think about it, the more this should be kind of in the "Things to watch out for in your host 101" chapter of "Hel's New Vampire Primer: You're undead now, learn not to live with it!", shouldn't it?
    And if you'll note - the first thing that Hel asks Greg in the finale of the previous book is if Durkon is under control. Why would Hel ask that unless something like this is a possibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    HPoH already said that Durkon's spirit is supposed to become dormant after he absorbed all of Durkon's memories. So, their spirits merging is out of question.
    In a sense? Yes. But I think it's possible that Durkon will be gone and Greg will turn into a perfect (or almost perfect) Durkon clone.

    Greg expected that after Durkon is gone, he will remain Greg. That's the only thing that changed.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Durkon WAS able to connect memories and learn from them.
    The problem is that you're treating "Greg can't connect memories" as something inherent which makes the person who can "special," where Durkon recognized it as indicating that Greg was missing something--was incomplete. And now I'm wondering just how meta this question is; in addition to saying it makes Durkon "special" that he can do something completely ordinary, you're saying you can't put things together to make this make sense, so...

    ...I cannot download my memories into you, and wouldn't want to if I could, so I fear if this doesn't explain it to you, you're on your own.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Delta's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Southern Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    And if you'll note - the first thing that Hel asks Greg in the finale of the previous book is if Durkon is under control. Why would Hel ask that unless something like this is a possibility?
    But then the rest makes no sense. If this isn't something that's unique, if that's something Greg has foreseen, why is he falling into Durkon's trap so easily? Durkon isn't setting a masterful trap here.

    Honestly, I just don't think there is an explanation that can make me "buy" this twist, simply for the fact I find it hard to buy the very essence of Durkon's "gambit", that his memories can somehow "warp" the vampire, because that just doesn't make sense on a very basic level to me. You create evil spirits to inhabit the bodies of their hosts, absorb their memories and control them and... absorbing their memories now suddenly makes them turn good? Just can't buy into that and believe me, I wish I could just be "Wow, that was awesome!" the same way everyone else seems to be :(

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2014

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Durkon didn't simply flood Durkula with memories. He pushed Durkula to request the full memories, and gave him ALL his memories in the way that helped Durkon contextualize that painful moment. And that would be living out Durkon's life, all his memories and feelings and thoughts in the same sequential order Durkon had lived them. The several days old vampire is nearly overwritten by this.
    Avatar: Undyne of Undertale

    Spoiler: Currently Playing
    Show
    Andi, fisherwoman/sailor Triton Fighter/Warlock(celestial) - in The Black Omen Awaits (OOC / IC )

    Noruva, necromancer/sage Human (aberrant dragonmark) Wizard (School of Invention) - in Heroes of Eberron ( OOC / IC )

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    The difference is that the memories were absorbed all at once, rather than continuing the "pick and choose relevant memories" theme of past strips.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Honestly, I just don't think there is an explanation that can make me "buy" this twist, simply for the fact I find it hard to buy the very essence of Durkon's "gambit", that his memories can somehow "warp" the vampire, because that just doesn't make sense on a very basic level to me. You create evil spirits to inhabit the bodies of their hosts, absorb their memories and control them and... absorbing their memories now suddenly makes them turn good? Just can't buy into that and believe me, I wish I could just be "Wow, that was awesome!" the same way everyone else seems to be :(
    You're giving Hel too much say in the nature of a vampire spirit. Just as Belkar can be a selfish serial killer whether the god who created his spirit wanted that or not, Greg was created from Durkon. Because he's a vampire. This is what vampires are. "But that's not what it would be ideal for Hel for them to be" is both true and completely irrelevant.
    Last edited by Kish; 2018-07-28 at 12:48 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
    The Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    I'm not reading this whole thread for details on everyone's questions/arguments, but to try to give a broad answer to the thread title that doesn't spoil anything:

    First, the main difference between Durkon's situation and other vampires is the speed at which everything happened. A standard vampire gets three days in the grave to absorb the lion's share of memories, and then takes months to slowly assimilate the rest. This vampire didn't get any of that, and so they were overwhelmed. A vampire who absorbs the memories in the "proper" way will not be overwhelmed. It could easily be argued that this would be a "balancing factor" in Malack's swift-rise spell, if I was going to stat it up for actual D&D play (which I'm not). And that's an aspect that Hel and her newly-created minion wouldn't necessarily know about, because it was Nergal's spell.

    Second, unlike the other vampires, he needed to access those memories right away because he needed to impersonate Durkon. The Exarch is not going to be in as much danger of something like this because nobody cares what spirit is in charge. He can (in theory) just put off even looking at all but the most basic of Gontor's memories until this whole thing is over, and then sip them slowly over years.

    Third, I doubt everyone has a single memory that could surprise and shock the vampire spirit like that. Because it's not the speech about "worst days" that does the real work here; that's mostly just Durkon psyching himself up by telling the spirit that they're wrong. No, the workhorse is the memory itself and how it makes the spirit feel. And I just don't think most people have a single ten-minute memory that completely changes the context of their entire life, before and after.

    And finally, this would be the sort of thing that would take a very strong will to pull off successfully. Even if you explained this entire procedure in advance, I doubt someone like Haley or Elan could make it work. They just don't have the mental strength. They could show the spirit the memories, but without the unshakable resolve to back it up, the spirit wouldn't be as affected by the emotional content. In purely game terms (which I usually don't like to discuss but this is good to use as an analogy), Durkon is a high-Wisdom, high-Will-save character who possesses an unimpeachable Lawful Good alignment. That makes him unique. He may, in fact, be literally the single strongest willpower character who has ever been vampirized, ever. It's not a thing that usually happens to Lawful Good clerics in their mid-teen levels; Malack would have been much lower level (and not LG) when it happened to him.

    The best way I can put this, overall, is that a human needs about half a gallon of water a day, or about 93 gallons over the course of 6 months. But if I poured 93 gallons of water down your throat today, you would die. That is not a significant design flaw in the human body that needs to be addressed! It's just a circumstance that doesn't come up enough for us to spend all of our time worrying about whether or not we are in imminent danger of swallowing 93 gallons. And if someone offered you a drink, you wouldn't think about, "But what if they suddenly whip out a fire hose?" before accepting.

    So, is it a thing that could have happened to other vampires? Sure, maybe, once or twice, just as I am sure people have died from drinking 93 gallons of water. Is it common enough for Hel to mention it in her five-minute orientation of the vampire spirit before stuffing it in Durkon's corpse, when she has an entire scheme to explain as well? No. At best, she would have said something like, "Keep an eye on the host spirit, don't let it get control," and the vampire would have said OK. And then still walked into Durkon's trap because it was incapable of connecting the dots on its own beforehand.

    (Also, fair warning: I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth on any of these points. If you still don't want to accept that this is a pretty rare set of circumstances, I don't know what else to tell you.)
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I'm not reading this whole thread for details on everyone's questions/arguments, but to try to give a broad answer to the thread title that doesn't spoil anything:

    First, the main difference between Durkon's situation and other vampires is the speed at which everything happened. A standard vampire gets three days in the grave to absorb the lion's share of memories, and then takes months to slowly assimilate the rest. This vampire didn't get any of that, and so they were overwhelmed. A vampire who absorbs the memories in the "proper" way will not be overwhelmed. It could easily be argued that this would be a "balancing factor" in Malack's swift-rise spell, if I was going to stat it up for actual D&D play (which I'm not). And that's an aspect that Hel and her newly-created minion wouldn't necessarily know about, because it was Nergal's spell.

    Second, unlike the other vampires, he needed to access those memories right away because he needed to impersonate Durkon. The Exarch is not going to be in as much danger of something like this because nobody cares what spirit is in charge. He can (in theory) just put off even looking at all but the most basic of Gontor's memories until this whole thing is over, and then sip them slowly over years.

    Third, I doubt everyone has a single memory that could surprise and shock the vampire spirit like that. Because it's not the speech about "worst days" that does the real work here; that's mostly just Durkon psyching himself up by telling the spirit that they're wrong. No, the workhorse is the memory itself and how it makes the spirit feel. And I just don't think most people have a single ten-minute memory that completely changes the context of their entire life, before and after.

    And finally, this would be the sort of thing that would take a very strong will to pull off successfully. Even if you explained this entire procedure in advance, I doubt someone like Haley or Elan could make it work. They just don't have the mental strength. They could show the spirit the memories, but without the unshakable resolve to back it up, the spirit wouldn't be as affected by the emotional content. In purely game terms (which I usually don't like to discuss but this is good to use as an analogy), Durkon is a high-Wisdom, high-Will-save character who possesses an unimpeachable Lawful Good alignment. That makes him unique. He may, in fact, be literally the single strongest willpower character who has ever been vampirized, ever. It's not a thing that usually happens to Lawful Good clerics in their mid-teen levels; Malack would have been much lower level (and not LG) when it happened to him.

    The best way I can put this, overall, is that a human needs about half a gallon of water a day, or about 93 gallons over the course of 6 months. But if I poured 93 gallons of water down your throat today, you would die. That is not a significant design flaw in the human body that needs to be addressed! It's just a circumstance that doesn't come up enough for us to spend all of our time worrying about whether or not we are in imminent danger of swallowing 93 gallons. And if someone offered you a drink, you wouldn't think about, "But what if they suddenly whip out a fire hose?" before accepting.

    So, is it a thing that could have happened to other vampires? Sure, maybe, once or twice, just as I am sure people have died from drinking 93 gallons of water. Is it common enough for Hel to mention it in her five-minute orientation of the vampire spirit before stuffing it in Durkon's corpse, when she has an entire scheme to explain as well? No. At best, she would have said something like, "Keep an eye on the host spirit, don't let it get control," and the vampire would have said OK. And then still walked into Durkon's trap because it was incapable of connecting the dots on its own beforehand.

    (Also, fair warning: I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth on any of these points. If you still don't want to accept that this is a pretty rare set of circumstances, I don't know what else to tell you.)
    So, to sum up, this didn't need a cleric to make it work, it needed Durkon.
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatars by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Spoiler: Avatar collection
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So, to sum up, this didn't need a cleric to make it work, it needed Durkon.
    Excellent summary

    Thanks for the info Rich. Looking forward to see what happens now.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •