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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    WIP - Ability Scores, Races, Feats, Backgrounds and Spells coming soon (tm)

    We all know by RAW the Coffeelock is broken. If you're not familiar with what the Coffeelock is, this person explains it



    So I postulate: What is it exactly about the Coffeelock that makes it so unbelievably broken? I think it's the resource accumulation, which makes even a single day of downtime turn into more resources than the 5e system can account for and means that - unless you force the Coffeelock to use up exactly what he can make each day - he will have an ever growing pool of resources.

    So, here is my proposition to transform the Coffeelock from broken into less broken (and what this guide will be covering): No more resource accumulation. The resources you have available to you each adventuring day are the resources you can make every time the party takes a long rest. The resources you had left over from the last time the party took a long rest are wiped away. This brings us more in line.

    Colouring


    Gold: Mandatory option. Well, not mandatory but you'd be shooting yourself in the back of the head twice with a double barrel shotgun if you didn't take this.
    Sky Blue: Great option. You should probably always take this unless it doesn't fit with your build.
    Blue: Good option. There are reasons you might not take this, but it's a solid fallback.
    Black: Default option. These are just ok. There's a few situations where you'd want them, but I generally wouldn't take them.
    Red: This option sucks. It's too narrow, outclassed or just plain useless.
    Green: Campaign or DM specific option. I will generally list in what situations these are good.
    Pink: Red option as of the time i'm writing this, but could become useful in the future.

    Rest Variants


    There are three rest variants given by the DMG, which affect the number of short rests you can take per long rest, thus effecting how er... effective your coffeelocking is.

    1) Normal rest rules (1 Hour Short rest, 8 Hour Long rest): The default and worst for the coffeelock (as it gives the least number of short rests per long rest). This is what I will be covering, as it seems to be the most used option (as the default option).
    2) Gritty Realism (8 hour Short rest, 1 Week Long rest): 21 Short Rests per long rest. This is probably the second most used variant as it stops DMs from having to shove 6-8 encounters in 1 day for system balance. It makes you have 2.5x as many spell slots though, so maybe tone it done a bit if your DM is playing GR variant.
    3) Epic Heroism (5 minute Short rest, 1 Hour Long rest): 12 Short rests per long rest. I don't even know who uses this variant. It gives you 1.5x as many spell slots, but Warlocks are already pretty busted with this variant.

    Proficiencies/Stats


    As a multiclass, you have two sets of class features:

    Hit Dice: d6/d8. There's no spinning this - your Hit points are usually going to be bad. You're a spellcaster - don't get hit.
    Armor Proficiency: Hexblade/Not Hexblade. Just take Hexblade. Light armor is pretty much worthless to you once you have your first Sorcerer level (because it's outclassed by Mage Armor). Medium Armor + Shield are going to remain relevant because you aren't pumping DEX until later and again - you don't want to get hit.
    Weapon Proficiency: Hexblade/Not Hexblade. You're going to be using Agonising Blast in place of weapons anyway. I suppose a Crossbow could be useful before that though.
    Saving Throws: Primary Save: Constitution/Wisdom. Constitution is the best of the three Primary saves (CON/DEX/WIS) for a Spellcaster (maintaining concentration), Wisdom stops you getting dominated, but I'd rather have Constitution. A good reason to start sorcerer. Secondary Save (STR/INT/CHA) is always Charisma which is actually the best of the three to have - Strength saves are often just prone/grappled/restrained conditions, which don't stop you doing your job, and Intelligence saves are super rare (bad when they show up though). While both CHA and INT will disable you, CHA is more frequent, which is why it's the best one to have.
    Tools: None. Anything is an upgrade from nothing, so nothing is the worst. Couldn't they have at least given me Cultist's tools as a Warlock?
    Skills: You get Two which is the worst. Another good reason to start Sorcerer is that you get Insight, which generally a called-for skill. Neither class gets Perception, so just take it from your Background. Other than that, skills are mostly to taste, but remember you're a main Charisma class, so you'll probably want Charisma skills such as Intimidation, Deception

    The Build

    There's basically two options, with a variant for each

    1) Warlock 3/Sorcerer 2/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +1/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +1/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +1/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +2/Whatever 2 (Probably just Sorcerer+2). This build gets Coffeelocking online at level 5, but won't have a powerspike (3rd level spells) until level 7. The variant is to start with Sorcerer (For CON saves), then go into Warlock 3/Sorcerer+1.
    2) Warlock 5/Sorcerer 3/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +1/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +1/Warlock +2/Sorcerer +2/Whatever 2. This build waits until level 7 to get Coffeelocking online, but it has Warlock 5 to fall back on. The variant is to start with Sorcerer 1 (again for CON saves), then go into Warlock 5/Sorcerer+2.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-01 at 02:31 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Minimus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Ability scores

    I will assume you're playing with Elite Array - 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

    Strength: The only thing you need this for is carrying the ludicrous amounts of cheese you're holding. It doesn't really matter for anything else. You're never going to attack with it, STR saves aren't that threatening and you don't care about Strength skills. Suggested starting value: 8.
    Dexterity: Good for: AC, Initiative. Spellcasters like going first because you can lay down the debuffs before they can do anything. Spellcasters don't like getting hit because they're about as durable as a twig. If you took Hexblade, you want this at a 14, which means put it at whatever gives you a 14 after racial adjustments. If you didn't take Hexblade (why though?) put this at a 14 or 15 (depending on whether you took a +2, +1 or +0 DEX race - you always want to end on an even number).
    Constiution: Good for: Concentration, not dying. Occasionally you will get hit and you can't do anything about it. For those times, Hit points are good and bonus to CON saves is good. Occasionally, you might find that situation happening a bit too much (it's because the DM has rigged the game against me I swear!) in that case, bonus to hit points and CON saves is extra good. Can't cast if you're dead. Suggested starting value: 13-15 (If you didn't start sorcerer, put this at an odd number so you can fix it up with Resilient Constitution).
    Intelligence: Only good for INT saves. Suggested starting value is 10 only because strength is worse.
    Wisdom: Good for: Wisdom saving throws. Yep, that's it. Suggested Starting Value: 12.
    Charisma: Contrary to popular belief, high ability score in your main ability isn't that important. That being said, you still want this at a 16 after racial adjustment, you just don't need to rush to get it to 20. Suggested starting value: Whatever gives you a 16 after racials.

    Races

    Ho boy, this is where I can tell everyone what races are garbage. Basically everything that is a suboptimal choice is Red. In general, if it's main draw is long rest recovery, it's also Red

    AL Compliant Races:


    Aasimir (Volo's Guide to Monsters)
    Protector Aasimir You might be wondering - why is this red? Don't they give a CHA bonus? The answer is (in case you put your 8 in INT: you can't long rest which negates the entire reason these guys are even good. You still get some things out of it, but there's much better options.
    Scourge Aasimir As above
    Fallen Aasimir As above

    Bugbear (Volo's Guide to Monsters): You are not a melee character. The only good stat bonus is +1 DEX.

    Dragonborn These guys are slightly better for you than Aasimir but they still suck. All you're really getting is fire resistance (play a tiefling). The breath weapon does so little damage that it might as well not exist.

    Dwarf
    Duergar (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes): No really good bonuses for you (aside from CON +2 and poison resilience), Sunlight sensitivity. I'll pass.
    Hill Dwarf: Over a Variant Human (with Tough) you have Poison Resilience and Darkvision, in return for -1 HP a level, -1 skill proficiency and -5ft of speed. It just isn't a great option overall, with no boost to Charisma and no real write-home benefits. That being said, it isn't complete trash.
    Mountain Dwaf: How tired are you of me saying "Just play a Hexblade" by now?

    Elf
    Drow: Sunlight Sensitivity is DM dependent (as in, what do they consider "Direct Sunlight"?). Their abilities say "Once per day" instead of "once per long rest" so technically it works. That being said, the only real bonuses are Darkvision, Fey Ancestry & Keen Senses which all elves get. Yes, you have Superior Darkvision, which might be worth some salt sometimes, but their other bonuses (aside from their good ability scores for you) are basically worthless
    Eladrin (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes): Short rest refresh Misty Step isn't terrible (Considering you won't be Coffeelocking some 2nd level spells until 8th level). Ability scores are also good. There's better options though.
    High Elf: Only reason Drow and Eladrin are black is they give 2 good bonuses (DEX and CHA). You're better off taking something else once that drops.
    Sea (MToF) Elf (Mordenkainen's tome of foes): How relevant is a swim speed, considering their other bonuses aren't good?
    Shadar-Kai (MToF): Eladrin are Short rest refresh (meaning not bad for you), these are long rest refresh (meaning very bad for you).
    Wood Elf: I have a feeling their bonuses are wasted on you (The +1 WIS certainly is), but if you want to hide a lot... i don't even know.

    Firbolg (Volo's) Bonuses are wasted on you. Hidden step can be good, as can Firbolg Magic, but they're not good enough to make this black.

    Genasi (Elemental Evil): There's no point going through them, they're all bad for you. Long rest refresh abilities and the passive bonuses aren't good enough.

    Gith (MToF) Can you say "Long rest refresh abilities, bad stats and pointless other bonuses?"

    Goblin: No CHA bonus hurts, but these aren't actually that bad. Disengage as a bonus action, DEX bonus, Darkvision & Fury of the Small are all good for you. That being said, I still wouldn't pick one.

    Hobgoblin Saving Face & Darkvision, but nothing else is good so skip.

    Half-Elf Took this long to find a blue race? I don't see the appeal to these over Variant Humans (maybe DM banned variant humans) aside from the DM dependent Darkvision. Worth considering. SCAG Variants are mostly worthless for you though, so base Half-Elf will have to do.

    Halfling
    Lightfoot: Good bonuses. Lucky might be wasted if your DM plays with Inspiration (mine doesn't). Naturally stealthy depends on what your DM lets you get away with. I wouldn't pick it, but it's not trash.
    Stout: You mean to tell me this Halfling isn't filled with dark beer-like substance? Pass.
    Ghostwise: Telepathy is the only defining feature here - how much do the PCs have to talk to each other without being heard? What are the odds the DM will throw a telepathy-interceptor at you?

    Half-Orc I'll tell you what the other Half is. Not a spellcaster.

    Human: +1 to all the ability scores. That's like 3 ASIs. Except half of them are wasted.
    Variant Human: +1 to 2 relevant stats and free feat (War Caster is generally a good option). Bonus skill is a tiny amount of gravy, the feat is why you pick this.

    Kenku No thanks

    Kobold: Pack tactics + Eldritch Blast + Agonising Blast for some at-will pain. Sunlight Sensitivity still sucks. Why didn't you just play a straight Warlock or Sorlock? These are alright, but not meant for you.

    Lizardfolk For when you want to become part of the Reptilian Illuminati and take over Greyhawk.

    SMOrc Only good if your DM gives you latent psionics.

    Tabaxi: I'll give this a black just because Darkvision, good stats, 2 relevant skills and the ability isn't actually bad (for when you want to get really far away). As usual with black races, I still wouldn't pick it.

    Tiefling: You are here for darkvision and fire resistance. Pick one that gets +1 DEX. It's not great with the long rest recovery spellcasting. If your DM is insane (read, he allows Winged Tiefling, which is not AL legal) then this becomes a Gold option.

    Tortle Nah

    Triton No standout features, long rest recovery spellcasting.

    Yuan-Ti Pureblood Cha bonus, Poison immunity AND Magic resistance. This is great. Just gotta be able to avoid being lynched for being a snake person (maybe stealthily take over the government?)

    AL Non-compliant Races


    To save me the trouble, I'll just go through the good ones

    Aarakocra See Winged Tiefling. Prerequisite for picking this race: DM is insane.

    Changeling (Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron): How good the at-will disguise self is depends a lot on your DM, but these have good stat bonuses, free skills, free tool expertise (Thieves' tools all the time) and a feature that could potentially save you from making a concentration check.

    Kalashtar (WGtE) Good defensive bonus in Dual Mind, stats are fine, Telepathy (see ghostwise halfling), advantage on a skill check. They're worth considering.

    Shifter (WGtE) Swiftstride is the only good option here. Shifting can save you spell slots that you otherwise would need to spend healing yourself. The Shifting feature gets you free disengages and the bonus speed doesn't hurt.

    Warforged Envoy is the only one worth considering. Poison resilience & Racial AC are the standouts. Stats are good (if you take Envoy). Worth considering.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-07-31 at 09:21 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Minimus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Subclasses, Skills & Background

    Warlock Subclasses

    Honestly there's only one choice here - and that's Hexblade, but lets go through them all the same. The 14th level features are unrated because you'll never get them, I'm also not rating expanded spell list unless there's something particularly noteworthy:

    Hexblade (Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
    Hex Warrior: Yep. It's this. Gives you proficiency with Medium Armor + Shields. Leave DEX at 14 to get 19 AC. You don't even need the other benefit (which is what people often dip this for). Without it, your AC is going to be 15 (Mage Armor + 14 DEX) or 16 (Mage Armor + 16 DEX), so this is a massive improvement.
    Hexblade's Curse Scales with proficiency? Was this even thoroughly playtested? What's that? It doesn't even need Melee Weapon Attacks? You can just use Eldritch Blast? I'm starting to doubt this got the popular vote because people wanted bladelocks, hmm. Anyway, Hex + This + Eldritch Blast = Pain. It's also a source of healing.
    Accursed Spectre O boy, this is a bad feature. Specific (humanoids only), gives you a bad minion (Spectre) AND long rest refresh for icing on the terrible cake? I should have invented a brown rating for this.
    Armor of Hexes This will come very late into your progression, but it's still good even then. 50% miss chance on anything and you get to use it AFTER they hit you, which means no gambling on whether it would have even hit in the first place. That being said it does consume your reaction, meaning it is only once per turn and probably won't give as much benefit as Shield.

    Archfey
    Fey Presence Have to be close, they get a saving throw, doesn't inflict good conditions anyway AND short rest refresh?
    Misty Escape This feature is great. Shame the rest of this subclass is pretty garbage.
    Beguiling Defenses: I think there's better creatures to charm than the Spellcaster (who usually has a strong WIS save anyway), such as the Raging Barbarian who is cleaving your face. Also contingent on DM throwing monsters that Charm at you.

    Celestial
    Bonus Cantrips: They're free, but you always use Eldritch Blast over Sacred Flame and Light isn't great.
    Healing Light Long rest refresh
    Radiant Soul They overnerfed this from the UA. So it's pretty garbage.
    Celestial Resilience Comes too late to be of any help (also just take Inspiring Leader), but it isn't actually bad. It saves you taking the feat at least.

    Fiend This would be the option if Hexblade didn't exist
    Dark One's Blessing: Every spell slot not spent on healing is a spell slot you can use for something else. This will become less good later, but it can still save you a fair bit of HP over the course of the day.
    Dark One's Own Luck Maintain concentration on that spell. Don't get incapacitated due to failing that save.
    Fiendish Resilience IIRC most monsters don't have magic or silvered attacks, so choosing Piercing & Bludgeoning can help you survive if you get hit.

    Ghost in the Machine I can't even accurately rate this, and it probably still isn't better than Hexblade
    Bonus Spells These are all really good in a modern setting.
    Bonus Proficiency You could probably get this off a background and I think it's an INT check anyway, so you're not going to be good at it. That being said, 2 hackers are better than one.
    Information Surge Short rest and it only shuts the thing down for one round? AND they get a save? Seems pretty lousy to me.
    Wire Walk Maybe if you found a way to extend your line of sight?
    Personal Encryption What kind of DM actually allows their players a "Saving throw" against scrying?

    Great Old One
    Awakened Mind See Ghostwise Halfling
    Entropic Ward Seems pretty awful to me. Short rest to impose disadvantage on ONE attack roll, then ONE attack roll gets advantage.
    Thought Shield How often are you running into Psychic damage?

    Raven Queen I rate this Rogue Dip/10
    Sentinel Raven Familiar that comes back on Short rest, can spam help on your Rogue and if they kill it you get advantage on ALL attack rolls against them? Maybe not so great for you, but this is a great feature.
    Soul of the Raven: Maybe if you need to make a quick getaway? I don't see this being that useful.
    Raven's Shield No thanks. Resistance to uncommon damage type, immunity to condition that's fairly relevant but this is really late and advantage on saves you shouldn't be making.

    Seeker
    Shielding Aurora Should just read: Once per short rest, a creature within 10ft of you provokes an AoO.
    Pact of the Star Chain Leave divining to the Wizards, Clerics and Druids.
    Astral Refuge Right now, I don't see it, but this could be very good.
    Far Wanderer: Resistance to fire and cold is good, but this is very late.

    Undying
    Among the Dead Are you in an undead heavy campaign? Then chances are you can't pick this subclass because it's banned.
    Defy Death Not only should you not need to use this, it's long rest refresh.
    Undying Nature Ribbon

    Sorcerer Subclasses

    Kind of like Warlock, you have a Russian choice here - Divine Soul is absolutely necessary to give you healing, otherwise you can't top up your hit points unless you have a kindly party member to do so. Again, 14+ features won't be rated.

    Divine Soul
    Divine Magic Most of the Cleric list might suck for you. There's only one spell you're after - Cure Wounds. Always cast it at 1st level to maximise Sorcery Point to Healing efficiency. Affinity should always be Law or Good.
    Favoured By the Gods You might ask "Why is this sky blue while Dark One's Own Luck is only blue?". Consistency. This hits a 4-6 a large amount of the time, Dark One's Own Luck is a flatline distribution - that 1, 2 or 3 shows up to screw you 30% of the time every time you use it.
    Empowered Healing You're not going to use this.

    Draconic
    Dragon Ancester Ribbon
    Draconic Resilience Little bit of HP, but the AC is worse than Medium Armor (most of the time for you) and the extra HP is basically worthless.
    Elemental Affinity Can't pick Force so this sucks for you

    Giant Soul
    Jotun Resilience The extra HP is pretty much worthless.
    Mark of the Ordening: The only spell you really want here is Spike Growth. While it's a good spell, it's not worth losing your ability to regain hitpoints at all for.
    Soul of Lost Ostoria Not only are you not investing much in CON, the benefits aren't even that great.

    Phoenix The colour is red, like a phoenix. How thematic.
    Ignite Ribbon
    Mantle of Flame Long rest
    Phoenix Spark Long rest

    Pyromancer
    Heart of Fire You're casting spells of 1st level and higher a lot, but you shouldn't be within 10ft of things and even if you are, the damage won't be very high.
    Fire in the Veins Resistance to fire damage is good. The other part - you use Force damage.

    Sea Sorcery
    Soul of the Sea If your DM is an aquaphobe this won't do anything.
    Curse of the Sea: Stacks with Repelling Blast for when you really want people to go away.
    Watery Defense Plus your Charisma SCORE? Excuse me? This is really good.

    Shadow Magic
    Eyes of the Dark: Darkvision is good if you didn't already have it. Darkness for SP is good, but you can take Devil's Sight from Warlock which negates the main draw of this.
    Strength of the Grave Long rest
    Hound of Ill Omen Makes your spells a lot better, means they're focused on hitting something other than you. Means you don't have to take Heighten spell. You get it really late though.

    Stone Sorcery - Feels bad to rate this so low, but a lot of the 1st level features you already get, and the 6th comes online too late.
    Metal Magic You have this from Hexblade.
    Stone's Durability Medium Armor will be better. The HP bonus is worthless.
    Bonus Proficiencies You have this from Hexblade
    Stone Aegis Reducing damage is good, but this comes very late and you can't really make good use of this ability.

    Storm Sorcery
    Wind Speaker Ribbon. How often are you talking to elementals?
    Tempestuous Magic Repelling Blast will get you out of Melee, but this also works.
    Storm Guide If your DM gives you hurricanes to work with
    Heart of the Storm: Resistance to a couple of uncommon damage types. Deal some piddly damage when you're closer than you should be. The resistances are what make this black.

    Wild Magic - Variegated, like the subclass itself.
    Wild Magic Surge - This ability on its own isn't bad. The DM could never let you roll it, which negates the use of even having it, but if the DM is reasonable and lets you roll the d20 every time you cast a spell of 1st or higher, this ability is on average better than worse (IIRC 8 bad outcomes, 20 neutral outcomes and 22 good outcomes).
    Tides Of Chaos - Alright, this is where we get to the fun (or not so fun) part of Wild Sorcerer. This subclass ranges from worse-than-red to better-than-sky-blue (Not gold though, it's probably never beating out Divine Soul for this build specifically, though it would beat out every other sorcerer subclass normally) depending on how often your DM lets you roll WMS to refresh this. If your DM never lets you roll to refresh Tides of Chaos (I.e. it's a 1/long rest ability) this subclass is awful, if your DM lets you roll to refresh Tides of Chaos any time if you've used it (which you should be doing as much as possible if that's the case) this subclass is amazing. It's basically a pure green because it can't be rated without knowing the DM.
    Bend Luck This ability isn't bad, but it's expensive to use. You kind of need meta knowledge to make this ability worth the cost, an average 2.5 swing can make the difference between a pass and a fail - a hit or a miss, but you need to be sure that it's a good chance of working. My advice: Only use it when you know a difference of at most 2 will be the difference between a pass and a fail, and only use it if you absolutely need to hit/pass (or absolutely need them to miss/fail). Use this too often and you're going to be burning SP (And thereby slots) like crazy.

    Skills
    Athletics Leave this to the Strength characters.
    Acrobatics Stops you getting grappled.
    Stealth If you're in a Stealth heavy party, you want this. If not, you don't.
    Sleight of Hand If your DM lets you use this for concealed casting, it's probably worth it. Otherwise, generally best left to the rogues.
    Intelligence Skills (Arcana, History, Nature, Religion, Investigation) Best left to someone with points in INT.
    Perception Most called for skill roll goes to...
    Insight Probably the second most called for skill roll. Not necessary, though. Use your brains to figure out if they're telling you a porky.
    Medicine Leave this one to the doctors
    Survival In a survival heavy campaign, you want this. Outside of that, you don't.
    Animal Handling Why?
    Good Charisma skills (Deception, Persuasion, Intimidation) As a high charisma character (in game, maybe not in real life) you probably want at least 2 of these.
    Performance Leave this for the gentleman's club.
    Background

    Look, I don't really care that much for Backgrounds, so just pick whichever one gives you good skills (read: Perception), good tools (read: Thieves' Tools), both or is good for your character concept (Read: Cheesemaker background). That being said, here is some standout backgrounds:

    Haunted One (Curse of Strahd) If your DM lets you take this, just take it. The background feature is the most broken thing ever. Seriously? Random commoners who don't even know you are willing to fight to the death for you?
    Pirate Yarr matey. Go around and wreck stuff, then use your Bad Reputation feature to evade the law. Have a pegleg, a cutlass and six pistols. Become the first Rumlock. The possibilities are endless.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-02 at 12:10 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Minimus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Gameplan and Spell selection (WIP)

    The Gameplan


    The basic gameplan of any Coffeelock is to convert Warlock spell slots (Short rest refresh) into Sorcerer spell slots (which don't get removed until you finish a long rest). You should only ever use 7 short rests' (assuming standard rest rules) worth of Warlock slots to create Sorcerer spells - keep the last set for the day ahead. By level, here are the spell slots you can create.

    • 5th (If you did Warlock 3/Sorcerer 2) - Your 7 short rests' worth of spell slots becomes 14 1st level slots for the next day, then you have your 6 2nd level slots (assuming 2 short rests per day) from Warlock.
    • 7th - If you did Warlock 5/Sorcerer 2, this is the same as the above. If you did the above, there's nothing new until the next level. Your Warlock slots become 6 3rd levels per day.
    • 8th - With your third Sorcerer level, you can now create second level spell slots. You can create 14 2nd level slots, 14 1st level slots or a mix of the two.
    • 10th -Warlock slots become 6 4th level spells per day.
    • 11th - With your 4th Sorcerer level, you can create twice the amount of 1st level slots (1 4th level Warlock spell = 4 SP = 2 1st level slots or 1 2nd level slot). So you have 28 1st level slots, 14 2nd level slots or a mix.
    • 13th -Warlock slots become 6 5th level spells per day.
    • 14th - At this point, you can create third level spells, or you can create 1 2nd level spell + 1 1st level spell, or you can create 2 1st level spells. This means 14 3rd level slots, 28 1st level slots, 14 2nd level slots AND 14 1st level slots, or a mix.
    • 16th - Warlock slots improve to 9 5th level spells per day. The 3 per short rest spells means your spell creation improves. 21 3rd level spells, 42 1st level spells, 21 1st level spells AND 21 2nd level spells, or a mix.
    • 17th - At this point you can create 4th level spells. However, your Warlock slots only generate 5 SP, so burning 2 slots to create a 4th is inefficient. You will generally need to burn a slot (0->5SP), create 2 1sts (5->1SP), burn another slot (1->6SP) and then create a 4th (6->0SP). In this way, you can create 10 4th level spells, 20 1st level spells and have 5 SP left over.
    • 18th - At this point you can create 5th level spells. You have the same problem as 4th level spells, so you can burn a slot (0->5), create a 2nd (5->2), burn another slot (2->7) and create a 5th (7->0), netting you 10 5ths, 10 2nds and 5 leftover SP.


    Coffeelocking without resource accumulation is actually quite difficult - you need to ration out your spells among the spell levels so that you have everything you need. Any time you have to reconvert, you're losing resources.

    1st level slots for healing (Cure Wounds), damage (Hex) and protection (Shield/Absorb Elements)
    2nd level slots for control (Web, Darkness) or utility (Invisibility, Misty Step, Suggestion)
    3rd level spells for when you need a lot of punch (Fireball, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern) or you need to stop something (Counterspell, Dispel Magic)
    4th and 5th level spells pack a bit more punch than 3rds, but they are inefficient to create. Create them wisely.
    SP for metamagic.
    Warlock Spell Slots can be used on Warlock-y things like Armor of Agathys.

    Spells


    We only go up to 6th level spells (7th if those last 2 levels were Warlock) on the Warlock side and 4th level spells (5th if the last 2 were Sorcerer) on the Sorcerer side.

    You have 4 Warlock Cantrips & 11 Spells Known in total.
    Spoiler: Warlock Cantrips
    Show

    Blade Ward This is slightly better than awful because you can quicken it. That being said, it's still awful.
    Booming Blade Would usually be good, but you're not melee. That being said, you still have the Hexblade feature which lets you use CHA to attack and damage rolls so you could if you wanted to.
    Chill Touch Decent attack cantrip with not much utility. Dependent on how often DM throws healing monsters at you.
    Create Bonfire While this cantrip does require concentration, it can also force creatures to move (triggering Attacks of Opportunity) unless they want to take more damage.
    Eldritch Blast What are you doing if you're not taking this?
    Friends Would be good if it didn't make them hostile immediately afterwards. You're better off burning a slot on Suggestion if you need to charm a dude that badly.
    Frostbite Decent for early levels, but becomes a lot worse once creatures get Multiattack.
    Green-Flame Blade See Booming Blade. Booming Blade is definitely better than this though.
    Infestation Low range, low damage, commonly resisted damage type & doesn't even provoke an AoO. Bad.
    Lightning Lure You don't want enemies to be close
    Mage Hand Good. Perhaps not in the first 3 cantrips, but considerable as a 4th. Open doors/locks/chests from afar so you don't get hit by the inevitable trap.
    Magic Stone This is only good to shoot with a Sling in the level 1-4 range. A Heavy Crossbow or Eldritch Blast is still probably going to be better. It's not worth the slot.
    Minor Illusion There's plenty to do with this if you think creatively. Create a 5ft*5ft*5ft box over yourself. Create a corpse (people will inspect it). Sound of footsteps or knocking. Etc.
    Poison Spray While the damage is good, it's a commonly resisted damage type with bad range and against a common save (CON).
    Prestidigitation Like Minor Illusion - plenty to do if you think creatively.
    Sword Burst Awful range, low damage (unless you hit multiple targets). If you're surrounded by more than 1 dude, your best bet is to get out.
    Thunderclap It's like Sword Burst, but against a more Common save with a worse damage type. So awful.
    Toll the Dead Actually a decent attack cantrip, but outclassed by Eldritch Blast.
    True Strike Spend your action this turn to get advantage on ONE attack next turn. The only use for this is if you're doing it while hidden (It's somatic only) so they might not notice you. Even then, the benefits aren't great.



    Spoiler: Warlock Level 1
    Show

    Armor of Agathys Not really worth it at 1st level, but definitely by 5th level. This is a great spell that scales well with Warlock slots. Monsters usually have to do their damage over 2-3 attacks, so this deters them from ever attacking you - because if they do they're going to eat a ton of unavoidable cold damage straight to the face.
    Arms of Hadar The low range makes this kind of bad. You're supposed to use it, then walk away without getting AoO'd, but you're better off just disengaging usually.
    Cause Fear: A lot of this is dependent on how your DM plays fear. Are the monsters just going to turn 90 degrees and attack the next party member while suffering no ill effects? If so, this spell is worthless.
    Charm Person: Not an awful spell at 1st level, but suggestion is at 3rd level so definitely swap it out by then.
    Comprehend Languages (Ritual): The only reason to take this is so you can scribe it in your Book of Ancient Secrets and swap it out later. In fact, the same can be said of all rituals.
    Expeditious Retreat The good ol' Iron Golem-at-level 1 killer. Unfortunately, there's the rest of your party that are probably getting hacked to bits.
    Hellish Rebuke Gives you a use for your Reaction, but you don't want to get hit in the first place so questionable.
    Hex Great spell. +1d6 damage on all attacks and give them disadvantage on an ability check (usually Athletics or Acrobatics so the hunk of meat can grapple/prone them).
    Illusory Script See: Comprehend Languages
    Protection from Evil and Good Decent if you come up against those creature types often.
    Shield (Hexblade) Spell is good. Stops you getting hit. You don't want to be casting this too often though.
    Unseen Servant See: Comprehend Languages
    Witch Bolt Low damage, eats concentration, low range etc. etc. All the normal reasons this spell sucks. It takes 3 rounds before its any better than chromatic orb - the fight's over by then.
    Wrathful Smite (Hexblade) So amusingly they have to make a Wisdom check against your spell save DC to end the effect. Which they have disadvantage on because they're frightened.


    I'm only rating the good spells from now on
    Spoiler: Warlock Level 2
    Show

    Darkness When/if you take Devil's Sight, this is a great spell for its level
    Hold Person If you come up against a lot of humanoids and have martial characters (who will benefit from paralyzation) in your party, this is great.
    Invisibility Becomes better the less Invisibility countermeasures there are. Good for sneaking around and/or disengaging in combat.
    Mirror Image Costs you an action, but usually good to stop you getting hit.
    Misty Step Teleport out of threatened areas, out of grapples and out of difficult terrain. All of this can be yours for the low price of a second level slot.
    Suggestion Depends on what your DM interprets as a "Reasonable" suggestion. "Don't you hate that pretentious wizard? You could put an end to him..." might not be reasonable. What about "Fight lying down so you don't get tired"?


    Spoiler: Warlock Level 3
    Show

    Counterspell Fireball-B-Gone. Fighter-Disabler-B-Gone.
    Fly If the enemies can't fly, this is a free win button. If the enemies can fly, this gives martial characters a way to reach them.
    Hypnotic Pattern Disable a 30-ft cube for a minute, take them out one-by-one. I usually rate this better than Fireball.


    Spoiler: Warlock Level 4
    Show

    Banishment Good charisma saves are rare (on monsters) and there's no end of turn save. This upcasts well and even if you can't permanently banish them, you can walk by them or ready actions for when they return.
    Dimension Door For when you absolutely need to be somewhere else.


    Spoiler: Warlock Level 5
    Show

    Banishing Smite (Hexblade) This is kind of like Banishment, except if you miss the attack you can just attack again on your next turn.
    Danse Macarbe Actually not bad if you can lug around 5 corpses constantly.
    Dream Want to add more cheese to your build? Try the Dreamlock! The way this works is - 1) Find someone who irked you slightly (Shouldn't be that hard), 2) Cast dream on them until they fail their save, 3) Prevent them from getting a long rest and deal 3d6 psychic damage to them, 4) Repeat until they die of damage (can't heal because they can't take long rests, which means whatever hit dice they have left is all they have to go on with short rests) or exhaustion penalties from not sleeping.
    Hold Monster The monsters just want someone to hold them. This follows the same stipulations as Hold Person, but it's a higher level which means it's not as good as it was.


    Remember you can only cast this spell once per adventure, as you can only long rest in between adventures.

    Spoiler: Warlock Level 6
    Show

    Eyebite Eats concentration, but the effects are pretty good and its fairly efficient.
    Mass Suggestion Suggestion, but scaled up and NO CONCENTRATION.
    Mental Prison Depends on how your DM plays this. If they immediately go to break the cage, its just 15d10 Psychic damage for the rarest saving throw (Intelligence). If the DM makes it so they don't immediately go to break the cage, this is 15d10 Psychic damage and a disable, which is great.
    Soul Cage While the effects are fairly useful, this has a lot of restrictions - Humanoids only, and if your DM is playing a combat-focused game, chances are the two non-healing effects aren't going to be useful.


    Spoiler: Warlock Level 7
    Show

    Forcecage Saveless Win button against anything that can't teleport


    For simplicity's sake, I'm not rating anything that appeared on the Warlock list.

    Spoiler: Sorcerer Cantrips
    Show

    Acid Splash Look, the general standards for these is going to be "Does it do something Eldritch Blast can't do". While you can use acid splash to melt things (with acid), you could probably just break them with force.
    Control Flames There is some use for this, but it's generally outclassed by Prestidigitation
    Dancing Lights Requires some creativity and is generally still outclassed by Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation
    Fire Bolt This does do something that E.B. doesn't do - Light things on fire. How often that's relevant depends on your DM.
    Gust I don't consider this spell great normally, but user No brains has something to say about it which has made me reconsider. If your DM uses a lot of environmental hazards and you have the requisite 9 levels of Warlock for Ascendant step, this could be worth taking.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Further, Gust combos with (a spammable) Levitate super-well in any area where creatures don't want to fall. White room dungeons aren't everywhere, and this combo can make sure the players can hijack every trap, lava pool, rushing river, eel-infested water, pen of angry animals, or even mud puddle to their advantage.
    Light Buy a torch
    Mending When d20 Modern becomes a thing I'm sure this will be a lot better.
    Message While this is technically 120ft telepathy, it depends a lot on your DM to say how effective this telepathy is. It could easily be spotted due to the V&S components.
    Mold Earth This becomes better with a lot of time, a Tenser's Floating Disk and a lot of casters who know this cantrip. You can dig out pitfalls, trenches, etc. with it. Maybe something to do when you're not Coffeelocking.
    Ray of Frost Use repelling blast
    Shape Water See: Control Flames
    Shocking Grasp Just Disengage

    Cleric Stuff that is good
    Guidance Give this to people before they make an ability check. It's that simple
    Thaumaturgy Divine prestidigitation is less flexible, but still good


    Spoiler: Sorcerer Level 1
    Show

    Absorb Elements Helps you not die to dragon breath, fireballs and other such unavoidable damage nonsense.
    Sleep Great from levels 1-4, loses its lustre around level 5. Swap it out then.

    Cleric
    Bless A good, low level, buff spell.
    Cure Wounds You need this to heal yourself before/after a long rest. Always cast at 1st level.
    Healing Word Great for getting your companions off the floor and back into the fight.
    Sanctuary As poster Rsp29a says:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    I think youíre undervaluing the Cleric spell list. Having so many 1st level slots is broken, in part, due to Sanctuary. Itís a bonus action which prevents being attacked, and isnít just for you. As a SAD character, the DC to beat it will be high enough you donít really need to worry too much, or you can selectively throw it on the partyís rank when theyíre mobbed to save a whole lot of healing resources later.


    Spoiler: Sorcerer Level 2
    Show

    Blindness/Deafness No concentration is a major selling point of this spell.
    Levitate Competes with Blindness/Deafness for a CON saving throw spell. This is a bigger suck for them because no end of turn save, but it fails on flying monsters, enemies with ranged options and requires concentration.
    Phantasmal Force Like with most illusions, depends on how your DM plays them. Will he cause the enemies to waste resources on the Illusions? If so, this is a great spell, as it targets INT and is a pseudo-disable. If not, it kinda sucks.
    Web Restrain them, then start smashing them with Eldritch Blasts.

    Cleric Stuff
    Spiritual Weapon Decent use of concentration for when you just want damage Whoops I thought this required concentration. This is pretty good for when you need damage. If the enemy is already locked down, this is a low investment for a consistent (but low) amount of damage every round. It adds up. Consider, though, for every Spiritual Weapon you cast, you can also Quicken an Eldritch Blast, so make sure that you're going to get more use out of Spiritual Weapon than Quickened E.B. (I.e. you need to attack with it for at least 2 rounds).
    Prayer of Healing Ok to cast during/after a short rest to give people a bit more HP.


    Spoiler: Sorcerer Level 3
    Show

    Fireball I consider it worse than Hypnotic Pattern, especially at the level you get it (14), but this is better against hordes of very weak enemies than the Pattern is. Because it kills them.
    Haste Your Rogue will love you. Your fighter will love you a bit less. You'll love yourself (Free disengage + double speed + 2 AC + adv. on DEX saves). Good reason to take twinned spell.

    Cleric Stuff
    Animate Dead The EEEEEEEVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLL spell. Well, you could spend all of those 14-21 3rd level slots casting this in order to reassert control over 56-84 Skeletons. Just don't be surprised if rocks fall on them.


    Spoiler: Sorcerer Level 4
    Show

    Polymorph Turn people into a T-Rex. Still relevant even at this level. Probably not worth casting on yourself though (you gotta make concentration checks).
    Watery Sphere Amazing utility spell. Restrain people, move them around, even if they pass the save you can just spend an action to ram them with it again.

    Cleric Stuff
    Death Ward Worth making some 4th level slots just so you can suit everyone up with a stack of this.


    Spoiler: Sorcerer Level 5
    Show

    You're a level 20 character - its time you made your own decisions.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-20 at 10:26 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Minimus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Invocations, Feats & Class Features

    This assumes you're going Warlock 11 and Sorcerer 7, with the other 2 levels being unknown

    Warlock Features


    Pact Magic Without this the build doesn't work. Short rest recharge spell slots is one part of this combo.
    Eldritch Invocations Second part of this combo involves one particular invocation: Aspect of the Moon, without it you're suffering exhaustion penalties (even with it you're still questionably suffering Exhaustion). Invocations are great because they give you a solid at-will damage option (Eldritch Blast) as well as some other solid at-will options.
    Pact Boon Well, Pact of the Tome is necessary to pick up Aspect of the Moon.
    Mystic Arcanum (6th level) You get this quite late and it's not really that much better than a 5th level spell. Also, long rest recovery.

    Sorcerer Features


    Spellcasting: You actually don't care about Sorcerer Casting at all. You're never taking a long rest so you can't recover your Sorcerer slots. Flexible Casting can be used to create slots, but you can cast Warlock spells out of those slots. I suppose this does give you some options Warlock doesn't have.
    Font of Magic Third part of your combo. Need this to convert Warlock spells into Sorcery Points into Sorcerer Spells. You can also use this to convert your Sorcerer Spells back into Sorcery Points later if you want the ability to use metamagic.
    Metamagic This is a good feature, but it's going to be inefficient for you. Lets assess our options:

    Spoiler: Metamagic
    Show

    Careful Spell The best way to stop your friends from getting hit by your spells is to not have them in the AoE of the spell in the first place. Better positioning or better spell placement. This doesn't even work well with blasting options because it only lets them succeed on the saving throw - they still take half damage.
    Distant Spell There's not much use for this - it's extremely narrow in application and definitely not worth chewing up an option that you can't swap out.
    Empowered Spell This makes your spellcasting more efficient if you're blasting. You need high dice of damage to make it work though, which means using Warlock slots until 14th level.
    Extended Spell As distant spell - too narrow, not worth picking.
    Heightened Spell Good, but expensive. Helps you land that spell when you really need to, but you shouldn't be using this too often.
    Quickened Spell Quickened Eldritch Blasts are great.
    Subtle Spell There's only one consistency with this: As per sage advice, subtle spells can't be counterspelled. The rest of this is DM/Campaign dependent. Are spellcasters feared? Does your DM enforce V/S Components? Are they likely to put you in situations where you can't V/S (such as gagged or bound)?
    Twinned Spell No longer works with Eldritch Blast, but there's still good applications for this. Twinned Haste is a big one. Again, it's one of those things that you shouldn't be using often.


    Invocations
    Keep in mind because you're shoehorned into Tome, you can't take invocations that require Chain or Blade pact.
    Spoiler: Invocations
    Show

    Agonising Blast What self respecting Warlock doesn't take this?
    Arcane Gunslinger Can't take it.
    Armor of Shadows You should have Medium Armor from Hexblade. If you don't, just burn a slot on Mage Armor.
    Ascendant Step It's bad flight, but it saves you burning a 3rd level slot when you want to fly (I guess?)
    Aspect of the Moon Mandatory part of your combo.
    Beast Speech How often are you speaking with animals? How often did you wish you could speak with animals?
    Beguiling Influence Blue only because it gives you a couple of skills that you can actually use. I might be tempted to take this if the other options seemed bad.
    Bewitching Whispers And so begins the start of the terrible Long rest invocations that still consume Warlock slots. Bad because long rest, there are other reasons this is bad, but you can't use it anyway.
    Book of Ancient Secrets A mandatory option if you don't have any other ritual casters. Good option if you do. Leomund's Tiny Hut means you won't get ambushed while you're spamming out short rests.
    Burning Hex I can think of better uses for my bonus action.
    Caiphon's Beacon Can't take it anyway
    Chains of Carcerai Not only in the wrong pact, also too high a level.
    Chilling Hex See Burning Hex.
    Chronicle of the Raven Queen Book of Ancient Secrets can give you Augury and Divination, which do this anyway. Also wrong patron.
    Claw of Acamar Can't take it
    Cloak of Flies Do some tiny amount of commonly resisted damage if you're way too close? The only use for this is advantage on Cha (Intimidation) checks.
    Curse Bringer Can't take it
    Devil's Sight This turns a second level spell (Darkness) into an amazing spell and negates a downside of Variant Human.
    Dreadful Word Long rest
    Eldritch Sight There are some DMs who won't let you use ritual Detect Magic from Book of Ancient Secrets constantly. In those situations, this might be good.
    Eldritch Smite Can't take it
    Eldritch Spear This usually isn't great - you don't generally engage at a distance past 120ft. However, some DMs will start combat 300ft away, for those times this is actually good.
    Eyes of the Rune Keeper Is there any use for this? I don't know
    Fiendish Vigor Not bad early, but loses its charm fairly quickly. 8 THP going into every combat can save you a Cure Wounds early, but it isn't doing much later.
    Gaze of Two Minds The one round thing makes this useless for intrigue. Maybe if you have different senses to a companion?
    Ghostly Gaze Maybe if there's a lot of campaigns where things are hiding in buildings or behind doors. The once per short rest restriction makes this a lot worse.
    Gift of the Depths If underwater breathing and swimming speed is relevant, you might take this. Otherwise, you don't.
    Gift of the Everliving Ones Can't take it
    Grasp of Hadar You want to push them AWAY not drag them closer. Maybe if you're standing on two sides of a cliff or chasm?
    Green Lord's Gift You can't regain hit points by using hit dice after a short rest anyway, because you never regain hit dice.
    Improved Pact Weapon Wrong pact
    Kiss of Mephistopheles So good, a reason to go Fiend. Unfortunately, I don't think it's reason enough to skip out on that +3/+4 AC from Hexblade.
    Lance of Lethargy Wouldn't be my first pick, but if I was running out of stuff..
    Lifedrinker Can't take it.
    Mace of Dispater Can't take it
    Maddening Hex Better uses for bonus action
    Mask of Many Faces Good ability to at-will, but it is DM dependent on how much they'll let you get away with by disguising.
    Master of Myriad Forms Too high level
    Minions of Chaos Long rest
    Mire the Mind Long rest
    Misty Visions DM dependent on how good illusions are.
    Moon Bow Can't take it
    One with Shadows How often are you sneaking through dark and dim places?
    Otherwordly Leap Ascendant Step is better
    Path of the Seeker Bad Patron
    Raven Queen's Blessing Wrong patron, and still ridiculously specific anyway.
    Relentless Hex Don't want to be close
    Repelling Blast Enemies away from you = you not getting hit (most of the time) = good. This is probably my 3rd invocation after Agonising Blast and Aspect of the Moon.
    Sea Twin's Gift Wrong patron
    Sculptor of Flesh Long rest
    Seeker's Speech Wouldn't it be better just to have them write it down and use Eyes of the Rune Keeper instead?
    Shroud of Shadow Good, but too high level
    Sign of Ill Omen Long rest
    Superior Pact Weapon Wrong pact
    Thief of Five Fates Long rest and bad anyway
    Thirsting Blade Wrong pact
    Tomb of Levistus Might be good if you need to buy one more turn. Possibly worth taking at a very high level.
    Trickster's Escape Long rest
    Ultimate Pact Weapon Too high level, wrong pact
    Visions of Distant Realms Great, but too high level
    Voice of the Chain Master Wrong pact
    Whispers of the Grave Depends how much your DM lets you glean from corpses.
    Witch Sight Too high level


    Feats


    As a full spellcaster, concentration checks are where its at, as is going first. Here's some options

    Spoiler: Feats
    Show

    Actor The benefits usually aren't worth the 1 lost Charisma point, that being said if you're in an intrigue campaign you might be able to use it.
    Athlete What part of "Coffeelock" screamed "Athlete" to you?
    Alert Great. +5 to initiative AND can't be surprised (ok this probably doesn't show up but nice to have). Sign me up.
    Charger The only place you're charging is away
    Defensive Duelist See the problem is that you have a shield in one hand, which means you can't have a weapon in the other and still cast spells unless you have War Caster. This is probably worth considering if you do and your DM throws a lot of attacks at you.
    Dual Wielder No thanks
    Dungeon Delver Maybe if you were playing World's Longest Dungeon.
    Durable For reasons I don't need to explain by now
    Elemental Adept Force damage is only resisted by one monster (Helmed Horror, who is immune). If in doubt, throw Eldritch Blast.
    Grappler Something you're not doing
    Great Weapon Master Ditto
    Healer Maybe if you didn't want to take Divine Soul you could spend GP and use Healer's kits instead. I don't know why you would, but you could.
    Inspiring Leader Solid option. Maybe not my first choice though.
    Keen Mind Nah
    Linguist Just take Eyes of the Rune Keeper
    Lucky Ouch. Feels bad to rate this red, but it is a long rest refresh.
    Mage Slayer If you're an emo Warlock (aren't all Warlocks emo? ) you can take this because you want to slay yourself.
    Magic Initiate Can't see anything you'd want that you don't already have.
    Martial Adept You're a martial inadept
    Mobile You're not making melee attacks if you're that close - you're using Repelling Blast probably.
    Mounted Combatant The main feature is useless because you don't make melee attack rolls
    Observant If your DM bans Alert, this can help you not get surprised. Though it's probably better just to have a Rogue with Perception expertise.
    Resilient: If you didn't take Sorcerer first, you want this on Constitution. If you did take Sorcerer first, this is still ok on Wisdom.
    Ritual Caster Take Book of Ancient Secrets
    Savage Attacker Melee attacks
    Sentinel No thanks
    Sharpshooter Weapon attacks only
    Skilled If you REALLY have nothing else you want.
    Skulker Leave this to the rogues
    Spell Sniper If your DM uses cover for enemies and engages at super far away this is good. Otherwise not so good.
    Tough How much are you getting hit? If you're finding your current HP pool isn't good enough, you can consider this.
    War Caster Advantage on CON saves is the main pull. You can combine with with Polearm Master to hit people getting close to you with a Repelling Blast.

    Weapon Feats
    The only ones worth taking are
    Polearm Master You need War Caster first and you lose your Shield (unless you want to use a Quarterstaff), but this allows you to hit people entering your threatened area with a Repelling Blast.
    Shield Master Gives pseudo evasion and a +2 to DEX saves. Not great, but if there's a ton of DEX saves going around, might be worth it.

    Skill, Tool & Racial proficiency feats
    None of these are good for you.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-01 at 01:54 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Reserved Post just in case.

    Alright, guide is finished. Let me know if I missed anything and I'll edit it in.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    What makes the Coffeelock broken is that it doesn't work in any way unless you have a DM who go "uh, sure, you win." Trying to pretend you can do it less cheesily doesn't help.

    Seriously, can we let that PunPunic abuse of the rules die and just start considering the Sorlock good again?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    What makes the Coffeelock broken is that it doesn't work in any way unless you have a DM who go "uh, sure, you win." Trying to pretend you can do it less cheesily doesn't help.

    Seriously, can we let that PunPunic abuse of the rules die and just start considering the Sorlock good again?
    Is a bunch of (comparatively) low level spells per day (without the ability to stack them into the next day) really that bad compared to what other optimised characters can do at that level?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
    Is a bunch of (comparatively) low level spells per day (without the ability to stack them into the next day) really that bad compared to what other optimised characters can do at that level?
    One, yes, Coffeelock is really that bad. There is a reason why an actual functional Sorlock get in general 2-3 short rests a day, and there is a reason why even this thread's title (that you wrote) admit it's cheese.

    By calling this "a bunch of (comparatively) low level spells per day", you're just transparently trying to downplay how much it is.

    Two, it doesn't matter how powerful the abuse of the rules make you, it's still abusnig the rules. 5e is not a game where anyone should try to get advantages by seeking pseudo-loopholes and then arguing ad infinitum the books' wording as if it was legalese just to get a power boost. It was designed to not be based on that kind of rigid "the rules don't say it's impossible" stuff.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2018-08-01 at 05:15 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    One, yes, Coffeelock is really that bad. There is a reason why an actual functional Sorlock get in general 2-3 short rests a day, and there is a reason why even this thread's title (that you wrote) admit it's cheese.

    By calling this "a bunch of (comparatively) low level spells per day", you're just transparently trying to downplay how much it is.
    Sure, but I consider basically any high powered build cheese. It's just varying flavours of cheese from a standard Monetary Jack to a creamy Brie to a stinky Gorgonzola.

    Consider this: A standard Sorlock might be something like Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 11, our Coffeelock at the same level would be Hexblade 9/Sorcerer 5.

    Our Hexblade 3/Sorcerer 11 has the following Long Rest resources
    • 7 Hit Dice (from Long Rest)
    • Full Hitpoints (AVG = 62+14*CON)
    • 4 1st level spells
    • 9 2nd level spells
    • 3 3rd level spells
    • 3 4th level spells
    • 2 5th level spells
    • 1 6th level spell
    • 11 Sorcery Points


    Our Coffeelock has instead the following resources
    • 6 5th level spells
    • 14 3rd level spells OR 14 2nds and 14 1sts OR 28 1sts, or a mixture of the three
    • 0 Hit Dice
    • Questionable hitpoints
    • 0 Sorcery Points


    To be on the same level as our standard Sorlock, the Coffeelock must give up 3 3rds (the 2nd and 3rd one can only be converted into 3 SP) and at least 7 1sts (lets call that at least 8, to make up for the 7 lost hit dice + whatever hit points are missing). Which means his resources are at most:
    • 6 5th level spells
    • 7 3rd level spells OR 7 2nds and 7 1sts OR 14 1sts or a mixture of the three

    Any damage he has taken further detracts from his resource pool. Once it gets down to a certain amount, it becomes questionable if he is even much better than a Warlock or Sorlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Two, it doesn't matter how powerful the abuse of the rules make you, it's still abusnig the rules. 5e is not a game where anyone should try to get advantages by seeking pseudo-loopholes and then arguing ad infinitum the books' wording as if it was legalese just to get a power boost. It was designed to not be based on that kind of rigid "the rules don't say it's impossible" stuff.
    I can agree with this and I agree that normal Coffeelock is abuse of the rules because it seeks to gain something that the base system is designed around not giving you (Resource accumulation). Hence the whole point of this post - without resource accumulation, is the Coffeelock still a broken mess or is it only on par with other Tier 1 multiclasses?

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    I think youíre undervaluing the Cleric spell list. Having so many 1st level slots is broken, in part, due to Sanctuary. Itís a bonus action which prevents being attacked, and isnít just for you. As a SAD character, the DC to beat it will be high enough you donít really need to worry too much, or you can selectively throw it on the partyís rank when theyíre mobbed to save a whole lot of healing resources later.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    I think youíre undervaluing the Cleric spell list. Having so many 1st level slots is broken, in part, due to Sanctuary. Itís a bonus action which prevents being attacked, and isnít just for you. As a SAD character, the DC to beat it will be high enough you donít really need to worry too much, or you can selectively throw it on the partyís rank when theyíre mobbed to save a whole lot of healing resources later.
    Sanctuary could be good if you're throwing out buffs mostly. I suppose you could E.B. -> BA Sanctuary (BA casting rules prevent you using any other spell but a Cantrip in the same turn). Thanks, I'll add it in.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    What makes the Coffeelock broken is that it doesn't work in any way unless you have a DM who go "uh, sure, you win." Trying to pretend you can do it less cheesily doesn't help.

    Seriously, can we let that PunPunic abuse of the rules die and just start considering the Sorlock good again?
    I thought the "decaf coffeelock" was still viable without any kind of DM fiat or handwaiving?

    You know, be some form of elf (New errata says that elves' 4-hour trance IS a long rest). They still do their long rest, but they follow that with 4 Short Rests while the rest of the party sleeps, using that time to do the coffeelock thing where they convert warlock spell slots to sorcery points.

    Doesn't get as many ridiculous spell slots as the original "cofeelock", but a lot more than other sorlocks. Pretty sure it's technically RAW, too.

    It's exploiting the RAW, but it works.
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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Unless I'm mistaken, you didn't rate Wild Magic Sorcerer.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I thought the "decaf coffeelock" was still viable without any kind of DM fiat or handwaiving?

    You know, be some form of elf (New errata says that elves' 4-hour trance IS a long rest). They still do their long rest, but they follow that with 4 Short Rests while the rest of the party sleeps, using that time to do the coffeelock thing where they convert warlock spell slots to sorcery points.

    Doesn't get as many ridiculous spell slots as the original "cofeelock", but a lot more than other sorlocks. Pretty sure it's technically RAW, too.

    It's exploiting the RAW, but it works.
    There is no short rests unless the DM alllows it.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    The coffeelock is beyond saving.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    There is no short rests unless the DM alllows it.
    As there isnít specific language in the Rest rules for this, isnít this as effective as saying ďyou canít play a fighter unless your DM allows itĒ?

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, you didn't rate Wild Magic Sorcerer.
    Whoops, Iíll add it in when I get home

    Quick and Dirty - itís still not going to be better than Divine Soul but it ranges from red to sky blue depending on how often DM lets you refresh tides of chaos.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Great guide! Thank you for your efforts.

    It might be useful to suggest an optimal level progression. ie, Do you rush for metamagic first, or get your Agonizing EB online? (You want to be Sor3/Loc2 at level 5, right?)

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Nice job Exocist!

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix_Walker View Post
    Great guide! Thank you for your efforts.

    It might be useful to suggest an optimal level progression. ie, Do you rush for metamagic first, or get your Agonizing EB online? (You want to be Sor3/Loc2 at level 5, right?)
    Optimal level progression is entirely based on how long you expect the campaign to go and personal preference. Loc 2/Sor 3 might be better if you like Elditch Blasting things, but if you want to get coffeelocking online earlier, then loc 3/sor 2 is what you want. I prefer sor 1/loc 5/sor +2.

    Metamagic isnít super useful for a coffelock early until level 8 or so - their resources are tied up in 1st level slots which donít convert well to SP.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    This is a great guide


    Good job toning a horrendous mess into a decent way to play.

    I feel like this type of playstyle could even be its own class one day.
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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawful Good View Post
    This is a great guide


    Good job toning a horrendous mess into a decent way to play.

    I feel like this type of playstyle could even be its own class one day.
    Thanks man, but this type of resource-shifting is, I feel, way above what the complexity level of 5e would allow. They would probably make it a spell point class (a la the Mystic).

    As Grod the Giant is quoted as saying

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod's Law
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.
    Having this sort of thing goes back to 2nd/3rd edition prepared casting. It's incredibly tedious for anyone but an invested player to use. Although the reward for system mastery is there over alternatives (Spontaneous casting), it's just so tedious that it will turn all but munchkins away.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Do cheese and coffee even go together? Is anyone's palate soothed by this bouquet?

    And another thing: what are the coffee blends associated with various coffeelock builds? I've heard of decaf, but do we have any other silly flavor or serving names? Latte-lock? McDonalds-scald-lock? Mocha-lock? Premium roast? I guess Aspect of the Moon coffee locks should be called Kopi Luwak because they turned out to be a load of crap.

    If warforged turn out to really be able to bring true tirelessness to the coffeelock, I propose we name them Mr. Coffee.

    On a serious note, I think it's worth it to reiterate sorcerer spells that appear on the warlock list because they will be cast differently. Isn't the gimmick of the coffeelock to sacrifice their warlock slots for more lower-level sorcerer spells? It's also worth investigating what spells could be good if they were hoarded en-mass. A pile of chromatic orbs could be used to brute-force attack an enemy's weaknesses. Bottomless castings of charm person and disguise self make you a one-man crime racket.

    Further, Gust combos with (a spammable) Levitate super-well in any area where creatures don't want to fall. White room dungeons aren't everywhere, and this combo can make sure the players can hijack every trap, lava pool, rushing river, eel-infested water, pen of angry animals, or even mud puddle to their advantage.
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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Do cheese and coffee even go together? Is anyone's palate soothed by this bouquet?

    And another thing: what are the coffee blends associated with various coffeelock builds? I've heard of decaf, but do we have any other silly flavor or serving names? Latte-lock? McDonalds-scald-lock? Mocha-lock? Premium roast? I guess Aspect of the Moon coffee locks should be called Kopi Luwak because they turned out to be a load of crap.

    If warforged turn out to really be able to bring true tirelessness to the coffeelock, I propose we name them Mr. Coffee.
    You might joke about cheese and coffee, but I've actually had coffee-rind cheese (The rind/wax had ground coffee in it). It wasn't bad - definitely an interesting flavour.

    Decaf = Elf Long Rest/Short Rest hybrid, he can't stay up as long but he's getting some sleep
    Latte-Lock = Probably this, it's a severely watered (milked?) down version of the coffee lock
    McDonalds Scald Lock = Normal Sorlock throwing fireballs out of Warlock slots, it's not real coffee but it burns like hell anyway
    Mocha-Lock = Same as the above build, but its Warlock 9/Sorcerer 5/Paladin 6, you get most of the good stuff of Coffeelock (not all the coffee goodness though) as well as the chocolatey flavour of Paladin, for a build sensation.
    Premium Roast = Coffeelock, but you use Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes to sell your wallet soul to a severely marked up brand that's not even that much better demon in exchange for even more power.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    On a serious note, I think it's worth it to reiterate sorcerer spells that appear on the warlock list because they will be cast differently. Isn't the gimmick of the coffeelock to sacrifice their warlock slots for more lower-level sorcerer spells? It's also worth investigating what spells could be good if they were hoarded en-mass. A pile of chromatic orbs could be used to brute-force attack an enemy's weaknesses. Bottomless castings of charm person and disguise self make you a one-man crime racket.
    You can cast any spell you know, regardless of what class you know it from (exceptions apply, such as Magic Initiate). Which means any spell you picked with Warlock you can cast out of your Sorcerer spell slots, and vice versa. Hence why I didn't reiterate them - it's redundant to do so - the same spell is good no matter which list you picked it off.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Further, Gust combos with (a spammable) Levitate super-well in any area where creatures don't want to fall. White room dungeons aren't everywhere, and this combo can make sure the players can hijack every trap, lava pool, rushing river, eel-infested water, pen of angry animals, or even mud puddle to their advantage.
    Considered, I'll put it in as a Green.
    Last edited by Exocist; 2018-08-02 at 05:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    So, just two things to mention. First off, Spiritual Weapon is a non-concentration spell, which is what makes it so good.
    Second, just because I'm obsessed with it, Shadow Blade is pretty good, especially upcast, or if you combined it with Quickened SCAG cantrips. 2d8+dex/str is the default, but it gains an additional d8 per level, so you can soon have a 5d8 weapon, and hit with it twice a turn if you quicken Booming Blade. So at level 5 that's:
    5d8+4 (default) +1d8 (Booming Blade) x2 = (22.5+4+4.5) x2 = 31 x 2 = 62
    I know it's as cheesy as it is gouda, but hey, that's what the Coffeelock is all about.
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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Look at 3rd level Cleric spells again

    Especially Spiritual Guardians which I would rate gold. Itís can be upcast, does damage, lasts rounds and has some control.

    I have singlehanded defeated encounters with this spell.

    Use sanctuary next round and dodge action to make loosing this spell hard. Also make sure you have warcaster or resilience (con) to help

    Also if not sanctuary the twin cast spiritual weapon and blast with EB.

    Also look at twinning some of the Cleric buff spells. They can be awesome.

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    He doesn't need to sleep, but doesn't he need to rest?
    Anyways, no DM would allow that. Right?

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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarohk View Post
    So, just two things to mention. First off, Spiritual Weapon is a non-concentration spell, which is what makes it so good.
    Second, just because I'm obsessed with it, Shadow Blade is pretty good, especially upcast, or if you combined it with Quickened SCAG cantrips. 2d8+dex/str is the default, but it gains an additional d8 per level, so you can soon have a 5d8 weapon, and hit with it twice a turn if you quicken Booming Blade. So at level 5 that's:
    5d8+4 (default) +1d8 (Booming Blade) x2 = (22.5+4+4.5) x2 = 31 x 2 = 62
    I know it's as cheesy as it is gouda, but hey, that's what the Coffeelock is all about.
    Whoops, misread Spiritual Weapon, thought it was Concentration. That certainly makes it a lot better. Added.

    Shadow Blade, eh...

    Ok so the problem with this build is that HP = Spell Slots (every hit requires you to expend a spell slot to recover the lost HP). Being in melee is a quick way to lose HP, which means Shadow Blade - although good at dealing damage - is also going to be a costly resource expenditure on that front. Secondly, your combo requires one of your Warlock slots to start and then requires you to invest a second level slot (2 SP) to keep the damage numbers up. Factor in your % chance to hit and those damage numbers are less than stellar - consider this (at appropriate level breakdowns assuming 60% chance to hit).

    5th level - Shadow Blade + Booming Blades = 2x(2d8+1d8) + 2x(2d8 if they move) = 27 + (9) = 27 (36) damage per round or 16.2 (21.6) after accounting for to-hit. This cannot be done on the round Shadow Blade is cast
    Same Level - Eldritch Blast + Quicken Eldritch Blast = 4x(1d10+3) + 40ft knockback = 34 + 40ft knockback = 20.4 damage per round + (24 feet of knockback).

    11th level - Shadow Blade + Booming Blades (we have 4th level Warlock slots) = 2x(4d8+2d8) + 2x(3d8) = 54 + (27) = 32.4 (48.6) after accounting for to-hit.
    Same Level - Blasting = 6x(1d10+5) = 63 + 60ft knockback = 37.8 + 36ft knockback.

    The highest level Shadow Blade at 13th level (when we have 5th level Warlock slots) will only add another 9 damage, boosting it to 37.8 (54) damage per round.

    At the end of the day, I think the limitations on Shadow Blade (can't Quicken if you use it on the first round of combat, have to be in melee range, eats a 5th level slot and concentration) just make it not an appealing option compared to Eldritch Blast (+ Repelling and Agonising), especially considering that you probably don't have a reliable way to trigger the Booming Blade's movement effect (you could use Repelling Blast I guess?). With this build, it's probably better to use that 5th level slot on a control effect - while reducing the enemy's HP to 0 the fastest limits the damage they deal to you, if the enemy can't hit you at all then you take no damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    Look at 3rd level Cleric spells again

    Especially Spiritual Guardians which I would rate gold. Itís can be upcast, does damage, lasts rounds and has some control.

    I have singlehanded defeated encounters with this spell.

    Use sanctuary next round and dodge action to make loosing this spell hard. Also make sure you have warcaster or resilience (con) to help

    Also if not sanctuary the twin cast spiritual weapon and blast with EB.

    Also look at twinning some of the Cleric buff spells. They can be awesome.
    Spirit Guardians is more a dissuader than anything. You don't want to go into melee with this build (because healing = spell slots), so you can't really aim to abuse the damage of spirit guardians. For a dissuader, you're likely just better off throwing out a control option (such as Web).

    I've put a note in for Sanctuary, assuming you're just throwing out control and buffs.

    What cleric buff spells would you recommend to twin? Bless and Twinned Haste seem to already cover most of the buffing you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louro View Post
    He doesn't need to sleep, but doesn't he need to rest?
    Anyways, no DM would allow that. Right?
    Debate is ongoing on the first point - technically the Elf version of this (much stronger) works perfectly by RAW. The Elf gains the benefits of a Long Rest in 4 hours, which means you can LR + 4 SRs per LR the party has. Less slots per day, but you don't need to worry about a whole bunch of things that make this build difficult to handle (Worrying about health constantly, exhaustion is murder for this build, etc.)

    No DM will allow the regular Coffeelock, true. Without resource stacking, I think it becomes a much more balanced & interesting build. Your spell slots effectively become your only resource and you must choose how to divide that resource for your maximum benefit.
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    Default Re: Maximus Cheesius: A guide to a less cheesy Coffeelock

    I don't know if twin-casting spiritual weapon would really help that much as you will still only have one bonus action to make one of them attack on subsequent turns.
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