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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Welcome back to the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge E6 Appetizer Edition! I think it's time we went back to basics, but that doesn't mean that we're not due for some crazy entries.

    The form of this challenge is to take a particular D&D 3.5 base class (our "secret ingredient," or SI) and turn it into a functional E6 build, which must feature the SI as heavily as possible. (The only hard rule about this is that you must take at least one level in the SI, though judges are encouraged to look favorably on builds that take all or almost all of their levels in said SI.) Your final build submission should consist of your 6 regular levels and your first 10 epic bonus feats, though providing a snapshot at earlier points through the progression is heartily encouraged. Entries are to be PM'd to the Chair (that would be me!), and they will be posted anonymously; our volunteer judges will then grade each build on a 1-5 point scale in four categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Use of the Secret Ingredient. The builds with the highest three scores will be awarded medals, with the Honorable Mention award going to the non-medaling build that the Chair likes best and/or that receives the most votes for HM in this thread. (HM may not always be awarded, particularly if the number of builds is very small.) And then we all have cake!*

    *Note: You must provide your own cake.

    This is basically like the regular Iron Chef, and let's be brutally honest with ourselves here: this isn't a gargantuan community, and we basically all know what we're talking about at this point. Make the builds, send 'em in, post some scores, and have fun. If you've got questions, lemme know. Still, let's lay out a few rules!
    • Cooking Time: Builds must be submitted via PM to the Chair by 4:59 PM GMT - 8 on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 (12:59 AM GMT on Thursday, August 16). The reveal shall be on the first evening the Chair has free following the cooking deadline, which is hoped to be that evening or the immediately subsequent one. Judging is then expected (*cough*) to take no more than two weeks, so we'll put the judging deadline at approximately two weeks after that, with adjustments as necessary. (You can do the math yourselves; I don't want to put two dates here and confuse people.) Notice that this is slightly earlier in the day than previous deadlines; the goal is to have the deadline be around the time the Chair gets off of work on that particular day, thereby allowing him to post the builds without having to stay up super late or wait until the next day.
    • Kitchen: Let's break this one down a bit.

      Spoiler: Let's talk about sources
      Show
      • ALLOWED: Almost all D&D 3.5 material published by WotC: Core, Completes, monster books, Races Of books, alternate power source books (Expanded Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, etc.), Spell Compendium, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Eberron material, Forgotten Realms material, and other WotC-published 3.5 material. (This list is NOT exhaustive and there are many other legal books that I did not mention by name!)
      • ALLOWED: Material from the 3.5 archives of the Wizards of the Coast website (including, but not limited to, the Mind's Eye articles). If you use it, link it.
      • ALLOWED: Official errata from WotC. If you're relying on this in a material fashion, it's a good idea to link it and to discuss it.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Unofficial errata, including "class fixes" (regardless of the source, including from the original author if not published in a WotC book) or fan-created content.
      • ALLOWED: Unupdated WotC-published 3.0 material (e.g., Sword and Fist, Masters of the Wild, etc.) except for 3.0 psionics. No 3.0 psionics allowed. If you are using 3.0 material, use the general-purpose skill updates (Wilderness Lore becomes Survival, Innuendo becomes Bluff, etc.) and the general-purpose rules updates (spells with a casting time of "1 action" become "1 standard action," etc.) when appropriate.
      • NOT ALLOWED: 3.0 material for which a direct 3.5 update exists. Use the updated material instead.
      • ALLOWED: Dragon Compendium and its errata.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Content from Dragon Magazine and/or Dungeon Magazine unless said content appears in an otherwise allowed source.
      • ALLOWED: Oriental Adventures, including the 3.5 update to Oriental Adventures from Dragon Magazine #318. This is a specific exception to the "no Dragon" rule!
      • NOT ALLOWED: Pathfinder content, regardless of whether it is "D&D 3.5 OGL" or not. If it didn't come from WotC, we don't want it.
      • ALLOWED: From Unearthed Arcana: racial paragon classes, alternate class features/variant classes, spelltouched feats, and variant races. (Traits and flaws are technically legal, but traits warrant a -0.5 point penalty in Elegance, and flaws warrant a -1 penalty in Elegance.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: Other Unearthed Arcana content, including (but not limited to) bloodlines, LA buyoff, fractional BAB/saves, alternate casting systems, alternate skill systems, item familiars, prestigious character classes, generic classes, gestalt, etc.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Leadership, regardless of source. Game elements functionally equivalent to Leadership (including, but not limited to, Dragon Cohort, Undead Leadership, and Thrallherd) are similarly banned. (Familiars, Improved Familiar, animal companions, Wild Cohort, psicrystals, elemental envoys, and similar game elements are allowed, and they are not considered to be "Leadership." If the difference isn't obvious, feel free to contact the Chair with specific questions.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: Third-party content, homebrew, or other non-WotC content.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook. Just because you're "epic" in E6 after 6th level doesn't mean that you're that kind of epic.
      • NOT ALLOWED: Any race or template with a level adjustment other than +0. (Or any other source of LA other than a race or template, if any such things exist.)
      • NOT ALLOWED: For our judges: penalizing solely based on legal sources used, regardless of whether those sources are plentiful, sparse, common, obscure, or something in between. If the material is legal, then it doesn't matter how many or how few books it came out of.
      • ALLOWED: Also for our judges: penalizing for using a source (other than material in Core; don't be vindictive about genuinely obvious stuff) that isn't listed in the build writeup. The chef may choose to present the sources in-line with the text, in a consolidated source list, or somewhere else, but if the source is listed (and is otherwise legal), it counts. If the source is not listed, you may choose to penalize for that.

      If you have questions about anything in this section (or hell, in this ruleset), feel free to ask the Chair.

    • Character Creation: 32 point buy is assumed. For the purposes of this contest, Level Adjustment greater than +0 is banned. (This may be revised at a later point, but I don't feel that the E6 LA rules are conducive to fun in the context of this contest.) No more than two entries per chef per contest, please; if you submit two builds and somehow are so overcome with inspiration for a third that you can't help yourself, PM me and tell me which two you care about the most.
    • Speculation: Please do not post any form of speculation before the reveal. Just don't do it, guys. It's not cool. This means NOT posting any of the following or anything substantially similar: what you think is going to be common, significant elements of your planned build or of other potential builds, or anything else that could directly influence someone else's build choices for good or for ill. (It's acceptable to ask for rules clarifications as appropriate, but try to avoid tipping your hand too much.) Speculation is bad because it can discourage people from posting builds and can also "taint the judging pool" when it comes to Originality, so please just try to be aware of how other people might react to your speculation.
    • E6: Here's how E6 works for the purposes of this contest. Build your character normally for the first six levels. After you reach level 6, you stop gaining levels and start gaining bonus feats every time you would gain 5,000 XP. Since we aren't actually tracking XP, you'll basically list your first ten epic bonus feats in the order that you take them, and we think of them as being kind of like levels. We will not use the LA-equals-reduced-point-buy rules, instead preferring to just ban races with LA, at least for now. We will not use the "capstone feats"; all feats that you take must be normal legal 3.5 feats, not homebrew E6 ones. You may not use the Epic feats from the Epic Level Handbook, though if for some reason there are non-Epic feats from the ELH that you qualify for, you may take those. (I don't think there are any, but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong.) It is up to the discretion of each judge whether this is a "hard E6" (magic above 3rd level spells is simply beyond mortal reach, items that have a listed CL above 6th are just plain not available, etc.) or a "soft E6" (if you can somehow get the magic on your character, it's yours, regardless of level), though I honestly don't expect it to come up. Don't go crazy with making assumptions about items and we probably won't have to find out.
    • Presentation: Please use the table found below in the spoiler. List your epic bonus feats (in clear order) after the table. If you find a clever way of formatting that that isn't annoying and that doesn't break anything, have fun; if it's portable, I may steal it for the next round. When sending your build or any disputes to the Chair, clearly include your build's name in the subject of the PM, and please present your build exactly as you want the Chair to copy and paste it into the thread.
      If you're using a picture, cite the source and follow any relevant citation rules. Because we have had issues with this in the past, when listing your skills, please make it very clear how many ranks you have at each level. There are multiple ways to do this and we do not wish to cramp anyone's individual style by dictating exactly how this must look, but make sure that somewhere in your entry there's an explanation of how many actual skill ranks you have. It's still fine to list total skill bonuses, if that's your style, but don't only list bonuses; make sure that there is a clear listing somewhere of your ranks alone.
      Spoiler
      Show
      Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
      1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
      Code for the table:
      Spoiler
      Show
      [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
      [tr]
      [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
      [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]1st[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]2nd[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]3rd[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]4th[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]5th[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr]
      [tr]
      [td]6th[/td]
      [td]New Class Level[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]+x[/td]
      [td]Skills[/td]
      [td]Feats[/td]
      [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
      [/tr][/table]

    • Contest houserules: Nearly the same as the main contest's rules here: all creatures are proficient with natural weapons they have or may acquire, bonus feats that are explicitly granted without meeting prereqs are usable even without those prereqs, and feats that affect which skills are class skills for you and/or how you spend your skill points (Able Learner, Martial Study, Truename Training, Apprentice, etc.) apply immediately at the level at which you take them (even though you normally spend skill points before taking a feat).
    • Judging guidelines: The minimum score in a category is 1, and the maximum is 5. Judges are expected to be fair, consistent, and open-minded, and they are expected to make a good-faith effort to engage with any reasonable disputes that arise, especially when RAW is in question. That said, contestants are asked to not dispute more than necessary; let's do everything in good faith and really only dispute when a judge is being inconsistent, being unfair, or is otherwise grossly misinterpreting a build.
      Judges may not penalize Originality solely because a build is a tribute or homage to an existing creative work (in or out of D&D canon; note that this is not the same thing as penalizing Originality for using well-known optimization tactics), nor may judges penalize based solely on sources used (whether those sources are plentiful, sparse, common, obscure, or something in between, you should judge the build elements and how they work together rather than what book or what books they came out of, as long as those books are legal for this contest and are cited in the entry).
      As with the main contest, we will follow the "One Mistake, One Penalty" guideline, and it is very important that the judges adhere to it. I'm going to directly copy and paste this from the main thread, and hopefully the original author won't mind too much:
      Spoiler
      Show
      Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

      Non-exhaustive list of examples:

      Skills
      Allowed:
      • Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
      • Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
      • Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs


      Not allowed:
      • Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation

      Prereqs
      Allowed:
      • Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
      • Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
      • Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
      • Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)


      Not Allowed:
      • "Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
      • Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes

      Other general things that are no longer allowed:
      • Penalising because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
      • Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalise if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.


      Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.

    • Other bits and bobs: If there's something major and relevant I haven't mentioned, assume that the way I handle it will probably be the same as the main contest unless stated otherwise or unless doing so would be an obviously absurd result. If you've got questions, I'll give you answers.



    This round's secret ingredient: the SOULKNIFE, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (and the SRD)! Allez Optimizer!



    The Builds:

    Name Alignment/Race Class Stub Score Place Chef
    Bzzsherrrp NG Human Soulknife 1 / Fighter 1 / Soulknife 4 15.5 2nd, Silver daremetoidareyo
    Chozin-Wan Sandhater ?? Azurin Soulknife 5 / Swordsage 1 13.5 4th Pleh
    D’dee Homaggio CE Silverbrow Human Rogue 1 / Soulknife 2 / Ranger 2 / Soulbow 1 12.5 6th jdizzlean
    Julia of the Many, Many, Many Talents CG Human Soulknife 5 / Wilder 1 Judge Honorable Mention Randuir
    Olloh, Mind-Tipper CG Human Soulknife 5 / Warblade 1 15.5 2nd, Silver RaiKirah
    Psir Perpsival Something Necropolitan Soulknife 5 / Illumine Soul 1 13 5th tricktroller
    Sorashana LG Kalashtar Soulknife 6 14.5 3rd, Bronze Falontani
    T'Fimebjeil, Paladin of the Raven Queen, Lantern of Life's Light CG Feytouched Soulknife 3 / Fighter / Crusader / Illumine Soul 14.5 3rd, Bronze Ripptor
    T'Fimebjeil, Inquisitor of the Raven Queen, Dark Maiden of Death CE Unseelie Fey Kalashtar Soulknife 6 16 1st, Gold Ripptor
    T'lasofe ?? Jermlaine Psychic Warrior 3 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 1 13 5th lysyly
    ‘Laine Bow Jermlaine Ninja 3 / Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 1 12.5 6th Maat Mons

    Last edited by Zaq; 2018-09-22 at 12:30 AM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    I want there to be more entries this time, so an OGL ingredient seemed like a good choice. Doesn't mean it's not an awful class, but it's got a strong intended flavor even though it struggles to live up to said flavor, and those ingredients tend to inspire us, wouldn't you say?

    This should be a fun round, I'm hoping. Show me what you've got, everyone!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Aaahh, the Soulknife. What an awkward class. Looking forward to trying to put a build together!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Already have Inspiration. That is a weird feeling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Oh my... I played a Soulknife, once... This is going to be interesting.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    I don't get why this thing doesn't have full bab. It's a fighter that has the bonus feats pre-selected that is locked into a single weapon choice. Rangers and paladins have way better class features and they get full BAB.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I don't get why this thing doesn't have full bab.

    Yeah, my immediate first idea was just as immediately sunk when I realized this :/

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Maat Mons's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I don't get why this thing doesn't have full bab.
    I don't get why the class is incapable of benefiting from Power Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting until 5th level.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Hmmm, might have an idea, and right now I have the time. Provisionally in to cook.
    Currently Playing:
    Our tables 1st Tome of Battle game

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I don't get why the class is incapable of benefiting from Power Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting until 5th level.
    Eh, not much lost on PA before then anyways with only 3/4 BAB, and before 4th level the mind blade might as well be a mundane stick for all the benefit it gives so you can TWF with a regular weapon no problemo. But I do have to agree, those restrictions do seem really arbitrary.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I don't get why this thing doesn't have full bab. It's a fighter that has the bonus feats pre-selected that is locked into a single weapon choice. Rangers and paladins have way better class features and they get full BAB.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I don't get why the class is incapable of benefiting from Power Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting until 5th level.
    Quote Originally Posted by RaiKirah View Post
    Eh, not much lost on PA before then anyways with only 3/4 BAB, and before 4th level the mind blade might as well be a mundane stick for all the benefit it gives so you can TWF with a regular weapon no problemo. But I do have to agree, those restrictions do seem really arbitrary.
    What? You aren’t thoroughly impressed by the thrilling primary class feature of “has a weapon”? Whyever not?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for round 24. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    Queer pride isn't limited to one month!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DeTess's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Just marking this thread, nothing to see here :P
    Last edited by DeTess; 2018-08-05 at 01:51 PM.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    I like how the soulknife can't actually make a knife...

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by tterreb View Post
    I like how the soulknife can't actually make a knife...
    Is 'knife' even a legal weapon?
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!

    Vaz approval for the best backstory. Villainous Competition 16: Burn Baby Burn
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=114

    Honorable Mention Villainous Competition 22: I Am The Night
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...e-Night!/page6 Xihu Ayame

    Click my Vulpix to feed it yummy berries!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by PrismCat21 View Post
    Is 'knife' even a legal weapon?
    A dagger is a type of knife, so yes.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by tterreb View Post
    A dagger is a type of knife, so yes.
    Do you have a source for this?
    Currently Playing:
    Our tables 1st Tome of Battle game

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    Do you have a source for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Merrium-Webster Dictionary
    a sharp pointed knife for stabbing
    There is no actual 'knife' in 3.5, but the joke wouldn't work if I replaced it with dagger. And there's no way to make daggers as a soulknife that I could find aside from a Dragon Magazine feat.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Welp, my first four ideas have all fallen apart....back to the drawing board!

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Which isn't allowed, I am out. Maybe next time.
    Currently Playing:
    Our tables 1st Tome of Battle game

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Luccan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    You know a class is in a rough spot when you can look at it even in E6 and go "I've got this idea for a Swashbuckler I want to make...". I've got some ideas, I'll submit if anything seems promising.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
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    Spoiler: Build Contests
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    I'm working on a build and I have a question about how Soulknife works. It's a question about how Mind Blade and Wild Talent are supposed to relate to each other. Since all build submissions must have at least the one level that grants both abilities, I don't think it's spoiling anything to talk about in the general thread (or else I would just PM the chairman). Might as well clarify for all competitors since there's no chance of it spoiling the game.

    In the SRD listing for Soulknife, it says that Soulknife gets Wild Talent (when they could have picked Hidden Talent), which provides the Power Points necessary to materialize their blade, even if they have no other sources of psionic power besides.

    But the rules for Mind Blade don't seem to require that you HAVE power points to spend. In fact, they rather particularly chose Wild Talent so as not to offer the Soulknife any Psionic Powers other than their Mind Blade, but the Mind Blade doesn't say anything about costing Power Points or requiring Psionic Focus. Or am I missing something tucked away in a different chapter of the XPH?

    It seems rather critical to potential builds to know whether or not I've got to remember to set aside 2 points every time I want to use the class's main feature. You know, in case I decide to take options that enable me to spend those Power Points to manifest other Powers.
    Last edited by Pleh; 2018-08-08 at 09:14 AM.
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    The mind blade is a supernatural ability completely divorced from wild talent.

    What wild talent provides, specifically to soulknife only, is the designation of "psionic class"

    What wild talent helps do for everyone is grant a character the ability to use concentration to gain a psionics focus or take psionics feats, or psionics item creation feats, assuming of course, that the other prerequisites are fulfilled

    The soulknife is nominally psionic, and although the mindblade seems related to psionics, it has a completely divorced mechanic

    I fell down a huge RAW rabbit hole on this one. What I hate is that i can't share that knowledge due to speculation issues.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2018-08-08 at 09:33 AM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    Which isn't allowed, I am out. Maybe next time.
    Come on and judge; join the Dark Side!

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Dagnabit. I committed to judging, and now I have an idea. That's a pain.

    I'm still judging.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    I'm working on a build and I have a question about how Soulknife works. It's a question about how Mind Blade and Wild Talent are supposed to relate to each other. Since all build submissions must have at least the one level that grants both abilities, I don't think it's spoiling anything to talk about in the general thread (or else I would just PM the chairman). Might as well clarify for all competitors since there's no chance of it spoiling the game.
    I am not the Chairman, but I think you're on safe ground here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    In the SRD listing for Soulknife, it says that Soulknife gets Wild Talent (when they could have picked Hidden Talent), which provides the Power Points necessary to materialize their blade, even if they have no other sources of psionic power besides.

    But the rules for Mind Blade don't seem to require that you HAVE power points to spend. In fact, they rather particularly chose Wild Talent so as not to offer the Soulknife any Psionic Powers other than their Mind Blade, but the Mind Blade doesn't say anything about costing Power Points or requiring Psionic Focus. Or am I missing something tucked away in a different chapter of the XPH?
    Here's the relevant SRD entry, for reference:
    "Wild Talent: A soulknife gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to materialize his mind blade, if he has no power points otherwise.)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    It seems rather critical to potential builds to know whether or not I've got to remember to set aside 2 points every time I want to use the class's main feature. You know, in case I decide to take options that enable me to spend those Power Points to manifest other Powers.
    I think daremetoidareyo has got it and I agree, but I will bow to the Chairman if he rules otherwise.

    My logic: Mind Blade mentions nothing about using power points. Wild Talent says "psionic power" not "power points." A character is still psionic, even if power points are expended, right?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by thorr-kan View Post
    Come on and judge; join the Dark Side!
    I really don't know enough to judge, maybe somewhere down the road.....
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    I really don't know enough to judge, maybe somewhere down the road.....
    Judging is (in my experience) not really any more difficult than participating, as long as contestants make sure to properly explain what their builds do and how they do what they do, which is on them. There isn't really any encyclopedic knowledge or superhuman understanding of optimization required.

    The one tricky thing is that you need to somehow have access to just about every bit of material ever made for 3.5, but in age of the internet, that's not that difficult.
    Jasnah avatar by Zea Mays

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    The one tricky thing is that you need to somehow have access to just about every bit of material ever made for 3.5, but in age of the internet, that's not that difficult.
    This part I have (and I mean everything). My problem is I am NOT an optimizer. I would be leery of judging power levels. And understanding the builds that are not well explained.

    I am relooking at what I wanted to try .....
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    This part I have (and I mean everything). My problem is I am NOT an optimizer. I would be leery of judging power levels. And understanding the builds that are not well explained.

    I am relooking at what I wanted to try .....
    While I firmly believe you should be joining the Dark Side (<Sith Mind Trick>You wanna judge<\Sith Mind Trick>), if inspiration strikes, go for it.

    And if *I'm* judging, system mastery *can't* be a requirement, 'cause I'm not a system master!

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge: E6 Appetizer Edition (Round XI)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    I'm working on a build and I have a question about how Soulknife works. It's a question about how Mind Blade and Wild Talent are supposed to relate to each other. Since all build submissions must have at least the one level that grants both abilities, I don't think it's spoiling anything to talk about in the general thread (or else I would just PM the chairman). Might as well clarify for all competitors since there's no chance of it spoiling the game.

    In the SRD listing for Soulknife, it says that Soulknife gets Wild Talent (when they could have picked Hidden Talent), which provides the Power Points necessary to materialize their blade, even if they have no other sources of psionic power besides.

    But the rules for Mind Blade don't seem to require that you HAVE power points to spend. In fact, they rather particularly chose Wild Talent so as not to offer the Soulknife any Psionic Powers other than their Mind Blade, but the Mind Blade doesn't say anything about costing Power Points or requiring Psionic Focus. Or am I missing something tucked away in a different chapter of the XPH?

    It seems rather critical to potential builds to know whether or not I've got to remember to set aside 2 points every time I want to use the class's main feature. You know, in case I decide to take options that enable me to spend those Power Points to manifest other Powers.
    Far as I can tell, Wild Talent: a) Makes Soulknife a Psionic Class which, b) allows it to use Psionic feats (some of which it gains as class features).
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
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    Spoiler: Build Contests
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    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


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