Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

[PhantomFox]

Yeah, it seems to be a giant doom spiral.

[Otomodachi]

I feel like I opened some flood gates when I really just wanted to vent, although I still stand strong on my stance of "yeah, done with this comic" but we can all agree that it's good Rob's got hope for his partner surviving, right?

Like we're all being respectful IMO but I still feel bad for being negative in the first place, I'm kinda hippy dippy like that sometimes.

[Divayth Fyr]

Aside from everything else, I'm not sure what to think of a team which

learned the hard way that trying to do two updates a week indefinitely is unsustainable.

When there are many webcomics doing two/three full-page updates weekly...

[Anteros]

3 grand per update, going to how many people? I think the team is 6 people now, right?

(checks news post)

OK, 7 people. And for all we know, they do have insurance, so the out of pocket is small. That doesn't mean non-existent.

The thing is, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever Erfworld needs 7 people to operate when other webcomics of much higher quality and content volume manage with 1 or 2. It doesn't take 7 people to release 2 giant blocks of meandering text and one actual comic every month.

[Morgaln]

The thing is, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever Erfworld needs 7 people to operate when other webcomics of much higher quality and content volume manage with 1 or 2. It doesn't take 7 people to release 2 giant blocks of meandering text and one actual comic every month.

What bothers me is that they still get paid about 1k each time they don't put out a comic. Technically they could not release a comic for a whole month and each team member would still earn more than 1k during that time. There are people who don't earn that much working a full-time job.

[Aquillion]

Sort of? A few things to keep in mind:

1. No health insurance through their job. They have to pay that themselves. That's a really big expense.

2. If they actually did that, the rain-or-shine pledges would rapidly decline. They know this.

[tomaO2]

I don't like this idea of bringing the rest of the world into the story. It's not always a good thing to keep explaining everything. The original Jedi Trilogy was a very tight story, while the prequels just went all over the place. Including all that wasn't bad, per say, but you don't need them either.

As someone who did offer money though the first time, I feel like one time should be enough.

As another person that donated the first time around, and saw the project fail, with assets, like the Hamstard comic, be rolled into other fundraising goals, there is simply no way I would ever donate again. I mean, the subsequent kickstarters have managed to mostly come through on their promises, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I read that if the... third kickstarter, I believe it was, hadn't over performed so massively, Erfworld would be dead by now. I can't help but feel that maybe it should have been.

What bothers me is that they still get paid about 1k each time they don't put out a comic. Technically they could not release a comic for a whole month and each team member would still earn more than 1k during that time. There are people who don't earn that much working a full-time job.

Um, are you guessing there or do you have some reliable information for that estimate? Rain or Shine donations are not listed anywhere I can see.

[Morgaln]

I don't like this idea of bringing the rest of the world into the story. It's not always a good thing to keep explaining everything. The original Jedi Trilogy was a very tight story, while the prequels just went all over the place. Including all that wasn't bad, per say, but you don't need them either.



As another person that donated the first time around, and saw the project fail, with assets, like the Hamstard comic, be rolled into other fundraising goals, there is simply no way I would ever donate again. I mean, the subsequent kickstarters have managed to mostly come through on their promises, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I read that if the... third kickstarter, I believe it was, hadn't over performed so massively, Erfworld would be dead by now. I can't help but feel that maybe it should have been.



Um, are you guessing there or do you have some reliable information for that estimate? Rain or Shine donations are not listed anywhere I can see.

In the state of the erf - part 2 announcement, Rob said this:

We introduced the rain or shine option for your pledge, and more than 1/3 of all Tools opted in.

Admittedly, 1/3 of the tools is not the same as 1/3 of the pledged amount, but I'd still estimate that it does roughly average out.

[factotum]

Aside from everything else, I'm not sure what to think of a team which

When there are many webcomics doing two/three full-page updates weekly...

There are ones doing better than that--Schlock Mercenary has been going daily for nearly two decades and has missed an update *once* (when the servers hosting the web site blew up, basically). One may criticise some of Howard Tayler's recent storytelling, but you certainly can't criticise him for consistency of updates!

[Divayth Fyr]

There are ones doing better than that--Schlock Mercenary has been going daily for nearly two decades and has missed an update *once* (when the servers hosting the web site blew up, basically). One may criticise some of Howard Tayler's recent storytelling, but you certainly can't criticise him for consistency of updates!

Well, I was thinking of ones which had larger individual pages - like Girl Genius, Dr McNinja or OorS.

Regardless, if two pages per week for a team is unsustainable, the team should probably go look for a different job. Though I'm not sure where would they get one less taxing...

[Narkis]

There are ones doing better than that--Schlock Mercenary has been going daily for nearly two decades and has missed an update *once* (when the servers hosting the web site blew up, basically). One may criticise some of Howard Tayler's recent storytelling, but you certainly can't criticise him for consistency of updates!

He didn't actually miss that update. It was delayed by the servers catching fire, but he posted it on a backup site later that same day.

[deuterio12]

Cryptocurrency is widely unstable and Rob's gambling on it is failing, who could've possibly predicted that?

Well, I was thinking of ones which had larger individual pages - like Girl Genius, Dr McNinja or OorS.

Regardless, if two pages per week for a team is unsustainable, the team should probably go look for a different job.

Yeah, and now they want to add even more people for just a few extra fancy effects. Great managing right there.

Maybe they should add a proper accountant instead.

[tomaO2]

On another note, I was also annoyed by his description of his ads. Those things weren't just annoying. They slowed the pages to a crawl when I tried reading the archive, and gave me viruses. I think Rob said that newer ads stopped doing viruses, but I didn't care anymore.

Honest to god, how is it considered okay for so many websites to host ads that give computers viruses? Erfworld was far from the worst offender. I get that websites need revenue, but there should be some minimum quality control.

Admittedly, 1/3 of the tools is not the same as 1/3 of the pledged amount, but I'd still estimate that it does roughly average out.

Let's be real, it's probably more. The ones that are more likely to do a rain or shine are the ones that are the more hardcore fans, who are probably also donating a higher amount. Saying 1000$ is a conservative estimate. I really hope he doesn't bring this up again any time soon. I'm really leery if the idea of the "normal" donors being guilted into checking that box.

Thanks for pointing that out.

There are ones doing better than that--Schlock Mercenary has been going daily for nearly two decades and has missed an update *once* (when the servers hosting the web site blew up, basically). One may criticise some of Howard Tayler's recent storytelling, but you certainly can't criticise him for consistency of updates!

Hell, his WORLD building is better. There are massive galaxy spanning wars going on. Tons of characters coming in and out of focus, and yet he does a better job of keeping the main cast, and it's main character, in focus than Rob ever has.

I was a continual reader of that comic for quite some time. I lost interest around the time of... That Honeycomb... thing. It was during the arc where Schlock was around planet Earth.. I think. It was before the Captain died at least. Killing the Captain off again kinda annoyed me.

[-D-]

I feel like I opened some flood gates when I really just wanted to vent, although I still stand strong on my stance of "yeah, done with this comic" but we can all agree that it's good Rob's got hope for his partner surviving, right?

Like we're all being respectful IMO but I still feel bad for being negative in the first place, I'm kinda hippy dippy like that sometimes.

I believe everyone here voiced the similar sentiment. I don't want Rob to suffer.

Likewise, my mother has some friends that always have a sob story, will always have some opportunity to get money, and will pay us back the money they owe us... I'm not saying that they are lying about their predicament, just that you can hear a sad story so many times before it starts wearing thin.

[tomaO2]

Yea, like the situation with Megatokyo Visual Novel. Raised 300k and nothing after 5 years. Constant stream of health problems and such. It doesn't generate much sympathy anymore. Honestly, My gut said that this was the inevitable result when I heard the project. I hoped for the best, but there was really no reason for me to think he could do it.

I, honest to god, feel that there needs to be a maximum cap on how much money can be raised in a kickstarter. When you get 10-20 times above the amount required these panhandlers just go crazy with the embarrassment of riches they recieve. Sure, there are times like with the OOTS kickstarter where is mostly works out, but what he wanted was also simple compared to most. All he needed to do was to publish the books that he had already written. It's a thing Rich has done before, so the risk was almost nil.

For MOST projects, especially ones with new accounts, this stuff happens WAYYY too often. People can't handle getting a massive excess of the money need, so it would be a lot better if you immediately ended after the funding got over 2-3 times the asked amount, and then, IF that is successful, then the next kickstarter you would be allowed to raise the funding cap.

Kickstarter will never do this, of course, because they don't actually care if the project is successful, and the more money raised, the bigger their cut.

Also, can we just stop and acknowledge that Rob has one of the most successful Patreons around? For doing NOTHING a month, he gets around (assuming 1,000$ from the Rain or Shiners) 8,000$ minimum a month. Let's look at some other big names in webcomics that use patreon.

-Schlock Mercenary
$3,180 per month

-Girl Genius
$1,706 per month

-Megatokyo
$1,916 per month

-Gunnerkrigg Court
Oh. You can hide the amount of money you make. Did not know that.

Here is a full list.
https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-creators/comics

The highest listed amount goes to...

SMBC Comics
$6,832 per month

Not per comic, PER MONTH. Rob can make more doing literally nothing than the most successful webcomic author can do on Patreon, and he doesn't have to pay fees due to the company. That's amazing. How the heck does he do so much better than MUCH more popular webcomics? Maybe due to those useless smuckers that he pretends will someday be able to purchase something new in his store? People would have so many smuckers by this point that putting out a new product would probably bankrupt him.

Hmm, in terms of per comic update, the highest seems to be...

-Subnormality
$3,394 Per comic page

Hmm, that's a lot. How often does it update though? Started 2007, so around 11 years old, 226 comics total. Um, looks like it updates every 2 weeks or so. So it the revenue is still far less than Erfworld.

This is followed by

- Goblins
$1,141 Per comic page

And then there is OOTS, who gets a grand total of 0$ a month, plus no ad revenue, and yet he still manages to make a living out of this. From selling books, I think?

Rob has hit Patreon gold. He's been incredibly lucky, and he's funded a number of kickstarters as well. Plus he had a head start by getting his start on OOTS to begin with. The only webcomic that Rich has allowed to join his website. Pity he didn't continue that.

[Aquillion]

Well, I was thinking of ones which had larger individual pages - like Girl Genius, Dr McNinja or OorS.

Those are all slightly different, though.

OotS uses a much simpler art style, Dr McNinja uses a slightly simpler art style and is B&W, and Girl Genius is done by a team with *extensive* industry experience, including a husband / wife team who have been working together decades. Also, all three have writers who are also artists, simplifying their pipeline immensely and reducing the likelihood of disruptions of the sort Erfworld has encountered.

Plus, naturally your reference points are going to be successful webcomics, since those are the ones you've heard of. Plenty of them just peter out or fall apart or update so irregularly that they never go anywhere.

[Razade]

Dr McNinja wasn't black and white for its entire run. Less than half of the comic is black and white.

[Divayth Fyr]

Those are all slightly different, though.

Of course they are. Still, if they can manage 3 comics per week, then a larger team should be able to do 2.

Plus, naturally your reference points are going to be successful webcomics, since those are the ones you've heard of. Plenty of them just peter out or fall apart or update so irregularly that they never go anywhere.

To be fair, comparing Erfworld to some failed projects would be strangely fitting ;)

But on a more serious note, if they want to make their living out of Erfworld, the natural point of comparison is a succesful project.

[deuterio12]

Plus, naturally your reference points are going to be successful webcomics, since those are the ones you've heard of. Plenty of them just peter out or fall apart or update so irregularly that they never go anywhere.

That's the point, Erfworld's making the biggest bucks while updating so irregularly isn't going anywhere.

Just imagine if instead of writing those multi-page complains or setting up cryptocurrency gambling or shopping for new homes or trying to start their own currency, Rob's team was actually outputing 2 pages a week? They would be able to buy Microsoft, Google and Apple by the end the of the year!

Ok, I kid.

By the end of 2019 since 2018's almost over.

[Anteros]

Those are all slightly different, though.

OotS uses a much simpler art style, Dr McNinja uses a slightly simpler art style and is B&W, and Girl Genius is done by a team with *extensive* industry experience, including a husband / wife team who have been working together decades. Also, all three have writers who are also artists, simplifying their pipeline immensely and reducing the likelihood of disruptions of the sort Erfworld has encountered.

Plus, naturally your reference points are going to be successful webcomics, since those are the ones you've heard of. Plenty of them just peter out or fall apart or update so irregularly that they never go anywhere.

I'm guessing you're only familiar with very early McNinja because the majority of it looks like this http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/21p57/ or http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/33p117/

Some spoilers for Mcninja there I guess.

While style is obviously subjective, and I do enjoy Xin's art...I wouldn't call it more complex than Dr Mcninja by any stretch.

[Welf]

Also, can we just stop and acknowledge that Rob has one of the most successful Patreons around? For doing NOTHING a month, he gets around (assuming 1,000$ from the Rain or Shiners) 8,000$ minimum a month. Let's look at some other big names in webcomics that use patreon.

Maybe that is a good thing? He helps separating stupid people from their money. Imagine these people would use that money to buy essential oils to poison their family, friends and pets. Or join some political movement.

Rob has hit Patreon gold. He's been incredibly lucky, and he's funded a number of kickstarters as well. Plus he had a head start by getting his start on OOTS to begin with. The only webcomic that Rich has allowed to join his website. Pity he didn't continue that.

I think starting on this webpage was a massive advantage. Not necessarily the large audience, but the very active forum. (Early) Erfworld was a comic that only benefited if it was discussed intensely. And that led to a very dedicated and large fan base. And as we see with Patreon, a few fantic fans are worth more than thousands of casual readers. I wonder how many of the core supporters are still from the early days, but I guess it's 80-90%.

[Jasdoif]

And then there is OOTS, who gets a grand total of 0$ a month, plus no ad revenue, and yet he still manages to make a living out of this. From selling books, I think?

Books and merchandise, yes.

Spoiler: I Rarely Have Cause to Multi-Quote The Giant Outside the OOTS Forum

Show

Yes, I don't have a tip jar or a donation button. I prefer for my income to come through the sale of items when possible, due to the fact that I cannot promise a given schedule and there will always be someone who says that I should feel obligated to do so because they spent money on me. Yes, I know that doesn't hold logical water and yes, I understand that you, personally, don't feel that way. But there are always people who do when push comes to shove. There are people who have told that the only reason they gave money to the Kickstarter was because they thought it would increase the number of comics per week, even though I never said or implied that such was even possible much less promised.

The best way to support me financially is buying books through Ookoodook. I recommend the prequels On the Origin of PCs and Start of Darkness, plus the bonus book Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales. These books are filled with all-new material, so you're also getting over 300 pages of new OOTS by buying all three. Or you could buy the OOTS Adventure Game, manufactured by Ookoodook owners APE Games. There's also a coloring book, stickers, posters, etc.

The second best way to support me is to buy the books (or board game) from your local comic book store. I don't get quite as big of a cut of the price that way, but it's still decent and it also encourages the game store to buy more when the next title comes out. Plus, you save on shipping. The only downside is that Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales is not available through your local store, it's an Ookoodook exclusive.

The third best way to support me is to buy something from the CafePress store. I only get a few dollars for each item there, since their base prices are pretty high, but it costs me nothing because I don't have to make the shirts myself. Likewise, buying one of the new OOTS miniatures from Morland Miniatures only nets me a modest license fee per standard mini, but it's free money for me since Morland is doing all the work.

At this time, I have asked anyone who wants to financially support OOTS to buy products. While the exact percentages I earn on a book sale are nobody's business but my own, I promise you I have literally never sold a book where I earned as little as 20% of the cover price. Your assumptions are based on what authors usually earn, but you're forgetting that I am also the publisher. I earn a substantially greater percentage on the books than a creator who is published by an outside company.

Maybe at some future point, when all of my Kickstarter obligations are completed, I will consider Patreon. Maybe at some point I will put out digital products that won't take up space in your life. But maybe I won't. I appreciate any and all support fans are willing to give, but it's ultimately my decision what avenues of support I am comfortable accepting. As I've said before, life is about what priorities you set for yourself, and I've placed "less stress" above "earn more" for some time now. And I'm pretty comfortable with that.

The day may also come when that no longer works, when my financial needs are no longer being met by product sales. And I would rather, on that day, have the freedom to come to the fans and tell them what's going on—and be comfortable that they would know that I wouldn't be asking if it wasn't an emergency. That peace of mind is worth more to me than a donation now.

Here's the bottom line: This is a business. It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business. Some people give me money for the work I do; most don't. I did the math once, only 4% of the people who read the comic have ever purchased a single thing from me. The business stays afloat because 1.) some portion of that 4% will buy close to everything I put out, and 2.) every product has the chance of converting some of the 96% into some of the 4%, either because this is the product they've been waiting for or because their life circumstances have changed and now they have money that they didn't have before. But it is only because of that 4% that this whole thing is viable.

Now, if you want to make the argument that I am not doing as much as I could to maximize the health of the business, that's a different story. Would it be better for the long term revenue potential if I was updating more? Of course it would. More updates keeps the comic in people's minds, which keeps them more positive toward it, which influences their purchasing decisions. There is a strong business case for me updating more. You're not making that case, but it's there to be made.

But the thing is, I can't update more. Because see, these PDFs that you're railing about? I did the work for them back in 2013. It took me like 2 days to clean them up and convert them. The reason I haven't been updating the comic is because I've been working on the stories I owe the Kickstarter backers—stories I've owed them for 5 years as of tomorrow.

It's not the products that are keeping me from working on the strip, it's the work that other people have already paid for. And whatever vague unspoken commitment I might have to the readers of the free comic, I have a concrete binding commitment to the Kickstarter backers. I already took their money, and it's long gone. I need to prioritize the work I owe them above everything else. So if I was going to change something about how I manage my time, it wouldn't be to work on the free comic. If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work. I can't, not without both infuriating my entire readership and tanking my income...which, again, doesn't exist unless I also put out products during that time. Which slows down the rate of the Kickstarter work even more.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time. Sorry if that's not good enough, but it's the best I'm capable of. You are free to take it or leave it, but it's probably not changing.

[JavaScribe]

Finally updated. I found it a little difficult to read.

[Welf]

I had difficulties reading it, too. I am afraid all those string-string updates ruined his writing style. These updates tried to sound important and mystical without saying anything.

[hajo]

I had difficulties reading it

Noah, the Grand Abbie (Datamancer+Signamancer), from a 1-city-side
(on a small island?) gets intel from a returning scout-bird,
and also controls some beasts, using a sort-of telepathic link
that works with datamancy (instead of thinkamancy).

So, not much happening, yet...

[tyckspoon]

I had difficulties reading it, too. I am afraid all those string-string updates ruined his writing style. These updates tried to sound important and mystical without saying anything.

A high-class caster is stuck on an abandoned island somewhere. He's filling his time experiencing the lives of the island's animals. One of those animals is a weirdass kind of bird that will do scouting missions for people; it came back and told him it saw another unit. Also there are bad puns.

[deuterio12]

Gotta love how the update keeps repeating how awesome those coastal scouting birds are and how seafaring sides will go through great pains to use them yet we saw zero mentions of them in the previous seafaring story with heavy enphasis on animal use.

[Yana]

I actually consider Lord Forecastle to be the pinnacle of Rob's writing. It was different enough from the main narrative while being self-contained and had an engaging main cast who worked to solve problems using info they had on hand instead of getting victories handed to them.

Whatever happened to those days?

[deuterio12]

Rob figured out he could just spam the words strings and signs and people would throw money at him as well work to fuel his gambling hobby. Or not even need to post anything half the time and the money would flow in anyway so why bother with good storytelling? That takes work.

[Anteros]

I scrolled to the bottom and looked at the picture. It was fine. I don't expect anything that's happening now to be relevant to the actual story any time soon, so I'm not bothering to read it. Heck, even the updates that contained characters we know and care about are barely ever relevant to the plot anymore...much less this stuff. If I'm wrong I can always go back and read it later, but I doubt I'm wrong.

Honestly, I've just been skimming the text updates and looking at the art for quite some time now and I don't really feel like I've missed anything at all. Which should tell you how pointless the vast majority of them are.