Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!

[Morty]

In the first book, casters felt like force multipliers. Immensely valuable, but you still needed armies and warlords to do the actual legwork. Then it was established that casters can't be popped on purpose - when Jetstone lost its Dollamancer, they thought they couldn't get another one before Ace actually did pop. The apparent revelation that there's desperate casters in MK who'd do anything just for stable upkeep feels... weird, but I didn't read that story.

[deuterio12]

I think it's Erfworld falling into the same trap a lot of fantasy media falls into: you either play a caster or suck.

Yeah, Ansom and Stanley and Trems all with less and less screentime. Caesar offed himself. Even Hamster's just kinda been there for his ass to be rescued by the casters recently.

It's an inconsistent conversion rate; a Level 1 caster would probably have a lower upkeep than a Level 10, if measured in shmuckers. But if measured in rands, then everyone's got the same upkeep of one rand.

Even assuming it's always one rand per caster per turn, eventually there's some breakpoint where it will be worth it to deal "I'll trade you X rands for Y smuckers".

Frankly, though, for my money, what I want to know is where rands come from. Shmuckers are made by cities. Rands? No clue.

An excellent question. In Erfworld zero always comes calling and upkeep's always a big deal, with Hamster himself unable to find a solution for self-sustainable existence.

Right, casters were powerful, but at the same time, we saw... what, five casters working for Gobwin Knob? One of whom died before getting to do anything on her own. They were strategically important, but it was also completely possible to overwhelm casters with infantry. The armies still mattered. Parson had more casters than Ansom, and yet Parson still had to do war crimes and do inventively awful things in order to not die, because Ansom really did outnumber him ten to one(Some rough estimates based on the more precise unit headcounts given in-story put GK's forces at 1,000 and the Coalition at 10,000), and that really did matter.

Wanda comments that they were outnumbered 25 to 1 when Hamster arrives, and she did have access to the maphack table.

And yeah it's been some time since we had a proper big infantry battle, and that's something Erfworld did pretty well in book 1.

In the first book, casters felt like force multipliers. Immensely valuable, but you still needed armies and warlords to do the actual legwork. Then it was established that casters can't be popped on purpose - when Jetstone lost its Dollamancer, they thought they couldn't get another one before Ace actually did pop. The apparent revelation that there's desperate casters in MK who'd do anything just for stable upkeep feels... weird, but I didn't read that story.

Not only holding "will work for upkeep" signs, there's hobo caster communities surviving off scraps and begging rands from others with some literally starving to death in the Mee Kay every turn.

Which also raises the question of why there's seemingly no killing in the Mee Kay, as a bunch of starving people with magic powers while there's a rich elite like the dirtmancers swimming in smuckers sounds like a recipe for disaster no matter how one looks at it.

[Anteros]

Unfortunately, the answer to almost all of these excellent questions being raised is "Rob either didn't think about it, or didn't have the writing chops to pull it off."

[HorizonWalker]

Wanda comments that they were outnumbered 25 to 1 when Hamster arrives, and she did have access to the maphack table.

Eh, I'm calling shenanigans on that one. Parson may have decimated the Coalition's siege with the dwagons, but he only got 40% of them. Even if the siege is literally 100% of the coalition's forces, a 40% reduction would only bring 25 down to 15, not 10.

Like it or not, Stanley was, in fact, more correct than Wanda when it came to that specific detail of the war. Which makes sense to me- Wanda isn't a Warlord. Her duties don't involve the map room very much. Besides, Stanley can still be right about a detail when Wanda isn't and still be an idiot.

Yeah, Ansom and Stanley and Trems all with less and less screentime. Caesar offed himself. Even Hamster's just kinda been there for his ass to be rescued by the casters recently.

It truly is a bizarre turn of events when people are complaining that the main character isekai'd into the story to be The Best isn't getting enough time in the spotlight to be The Best.

Not that I don't agree with you, I just think it's funny as hell.

Even assuming it's always one rand per caster per turn, eventually there's some breakpoint where it will be worth it to deal "I'll trade you X rands for Y smuckers".
---
An excellent question. In Erfworld zero always comes calling and upkeep's always a big deal, with Hamster himself unable to find a solution for self-sustainable existence.

The ideal revelation would've been that sustainability and such was already discovered and in use by the Magic Kingdom(which also fixes the issue of starving casters who'll work for cheap, and also where rands come from), but the limiting factor that stops it from being implemented everywhere is partly "the people of Erfworld, by and large, don't want peace," and partly "casters don't exactly grow on trees."

[-D-]

It truly is a bizarre turn of events when people are complaining that the main character isekai'd into the story to be The Best isn't getting enough time in the spotlight to be The Best.

Not that I don't agree with you, I just think it's funny as hell.

I'd argue that's because Isekai writer knows both what & who their protagonist is, and what their audience is.

On the other hand, Erfworld is doing something right, since it has a profitable following. ATM I think Erfworld is basically, Game of Strings (an amalgamation of Game of Thrones and Wacky Everymancy + references). Or Erfworld could just be a fad, that relies on references like Scary Movie and its ilk.

[Douglas]

If sustaining a side requires waging war, then Erfworld must have some particularly weird mechanic that supports that.

In the real world, war is a net destructive process - the winner may end up with more resources, but only via transferring resources from the loser; the total resources of both sides combined is decreased by the war. If Erfworld matched reality in that regard, then every war would decrease the resources available in the world, and something would need to counterbalance that or the world would inevitably slide to total resource starvation. But if such a counterbalancing resource creation mechanism existed, then a side would be able to support itself using that with no need for war.

One possible explanation I thought of is forced overpopulation - cities are always working on popping something and "nothing" isn't an available option for a ruler to choose, so a non-warring side will eventually accumulate more units than it's able to support. This could be handled by croaking, disbanding, or harvesting for provisions any units above a certain amount, though, and if the solution were that simple Parson would have already found it. He definitely thought of it, he goes into significant detail on it in this Klog, and if overpopulation were the problem then this would be the entire solution, not just "one more piece of the puzzle".

So, somehow war in Erfworld apparently creates more resources than it destroys.

[-D-]

If sustaining a side requires waging war, then Erfworld must have some particularly weird mechanic that supports that.

In the real world, war is a net destructive process - the winner may end up with more resources, but only via transferring resources from the loser; the total resources of both sides combined is decreased by the war. If Erfworld matched reality in that regard, then every war would decrease the resources available in the world, and something would need to counterbalance that or the world would inevitably slide to total resource starvation. But if such a counterbalancing resource creation mechanism existed, then a side would be able to support itself using that with no need for war.

I don't think comparing the real world to Erf is wise. I mean in Stupid World, people don't pop out of existence fully formed.

The system is set up to mimic the real world, but it's basic mechanics are different.
For example, things are continually popping into existence (birds, bees, warlords), while other mechanics conspire to balance these things. So for every warlord, you get a tiger or an ant that wants to kill him, thereby "balancing" the equation. War might just be Erfworld's way of keeping things in check.

Another such example is getting old. In Erfworld it's impossible to die of old age. However, it's possible to die of irrelevancy. While your life isn't capped per se, the longer you are alive, the less relevant to Fate and the World you become and your Signamancy deteriorates, (and this is conjecture on my part) including your mental state. Sides that don't remove a Signamancy deteriorating King are at risk to end. Probably the same goes for Signamancy deteriorating units. Also, most units die in droves, so it's not hard to always have fresh looking units.

[tomaO2]

It truly is a bizarre turn of events when people are complaining that the main character isekai'd into the story to be The Best isn't getting enough time in the spotlight to be The Best.

Not that I don't agree with you, I just think it's funny as hell.

The ideal revelation would've been that sustainability and such was already discovered and in use by the Magic Kingdom(which also fixes the issue of starving casters who'll work for cheap, and also where rands come from), but the limiting factor that stops it from being implemented everywhere is partly "the people of Erfworld, by and large, don't want peace," and partly "casters don't exactly grow on trees."

Most isekais get random power ups and brute force their way to victory. Ones that think their way through a problem, are far rarer. Parson was sold to us as a thinking man protagonist, but it's turned into a power wank that doesn't even give a power wank to the actual protagonist of the story. It's a double slap to the face.

Also +1 on casters should have solved the upkeep issue. I think the entire upkeep thing is another aspect where Rob is brute forcing a problem that shouldn't even exist in the way it does. I mean, look at FAQ. I simply refuse to believe that they can't reduce upkeep enough to be sustainable. Far more likely is that they never had an army until the prophecy was made, so they had to keep sending Jillian out on missions to make sure she wasn't around when FAQ was wiped out. That's just me inventing a solution to the problem though, which I shouldn't have to do.

That said, it was stated in a backer update that a "half" army is sustainable. So there is clearly just this need to keep popping units until you go into negative upkeep. So, if keeping an army small works, you can keep a big army of decrypted because they have 0 upkeep, it seems that solving upkeep is not a big deal for GK, or it wouldn't be, if they were not at war all the time.

Actually, maybe the main problem is that everybody is just a bunch of warmongers. Hell, even the infantry would rather go fight and die in a pointless battle then spend a long life guarding a city.

[deuterio12]

It truly is a bizarre turn of events when people are complaining that the main character isekai'd into the story to be The Best isn't getting enough time in the spotlight to be The Best.

Not that I don't agree with you, I just think it's funny as hell.

But Hamster wasn't "The Best" in book 1. As pointed out by the end he's reduced to commiting war crimes to try to slow down the coalition's human waves and GK only wins because it turns out Wanda was the catalyst behind everything to get the arkenpliers that turn her into one of the most OP units in Erfworld. And even then it's a bitter victory because Hamster's left in a pile of ruins and ashes thinking about all the sacrifices he made including sending his good friend Bogroll to die in a suicide attack.

Also +1 on casters should have solved the upkeep issue. I think the entire upkeep thing is another aspect where Rob is brute forcing a problem that shouldn't even exist in the way it does. I mean, look at FAQ. I simply refuse to believe that they can't reduce upkeep enough to be sustainable. Far more likely is that they never had an army until the prophecy was made, so they had to keep sending Jillian out on missions to make sure she wasn't around when FAQ was wiped out. That's just me inventing a solution to the problem though, which I shouldn't have to do.

That said, it was stated in a backer update that a "half" army is sustainable. So there is clearly just this need to keep popping units until you go into negative upkeep. So, if keeping an army small works, you can keep a big army of decrypted because they have 0 upkeep, it seems that solving upkeep is not a big deal for GK, or it wouldn't be, if they were not at war all the time.

Actually, maybe the main problem is that everybody is just a bunch of warmongers. Hell, even the infantry would rather go fight and die in a pointless battle then spend a long life guarding a city.

Well the top casters at the Mee Kay would just be jerks that are happy to relax at their ivory towers while their less fortunate fellows starve to death whitin view.

But yeah another backer story had an alliance actually reach self-sustainability just by keeping small armies, but somehow Hamster couldn't do the math with his genius and super bracer.

Wonder what's up with authors just loving to make "expanded universe" stories where they make the main story characters look like idiots.

[HorizonWalker]

But Hamster wasn't "The Best" in book 1. As pointed out by the end he's reduced to commiting war crimes to try to slow down the coalition's human waves and GK only wins because it turns out Wanda was the catalyst behind everything to get the arkenpliers that turn her into one of the most OP units in Erfworld. And even then it's a bitter victory because Hamster's left in a pile of ruins and ashes thinking about all the sacrifices he made including sending his good friend Bogroll to die in a suicide attack.

I went back and checked. He's called "The Perfect Warlord" before he's called "Parson." I agree that he isn't a straight-up power fantasy, of course- Erfworld Book 1 is about how the isekai thing can go horribly, disastrously wrong.

Well the top casters at the Mee Kay would just be jerks that are happy to relax at their ivory towers while their less fortunate fellows starve to death whitin view.

But yeah another backer story had an alliance actually reach self-sustainability just by keeping small armies, but somehow Hamster couldn't do the math with his genius and super bracer.

Wonder what's up with authors just loving to make "expanded universe" stories where they make the main story characters look like idiots.

I have a theory that when Book 1 ended, in addition to the artist leaving, Rob suffered a head injury and forgot that Erfworld's setting is deliberately a childlike pastiche of tabletop wargames meant to service the story of Parson being made to commit war crimes and wondering if it's really him doing it or if Erfworld is forcing his hand. When he then tried to turn his deliberately stupid paper-thin cardboard cutout backdrop into a coherent fantasy world... well, that's how we got everything after Book 1.

[Doran]

Book 5 - Prologue 12

Fate comes into play.

I wonder if it's possible to determine via Predictamancy and Luckamancy when a unit is no longer, and hedge in their actions using Predictions and Carnymancy to become essentially unstoppable machines.

Spoiler

Show

Interesting twist that Mathamancers get Astrology

[Rockphed]

Spoiler

Show

Interesting twist that Mathamancers get Astrology

Which means that 3 disciplines have a method of predicting the future.

[HandofShadows]

Even managed to bring some quantum physics into this one.

[deuterio12]

Which means that 3 disciplines have a method of predicting the future.

It's called lies statistics.

I wonder if it's possible to determine via Predictamancy and Luckamancy when a unit is no longer, and hedge in their actions using Predictions and Carnymancy to become essentially unstoppable machines.

Carnymancy alone enough to do it, Scarlet was explicitly made to be unstoppable until she wanted to stop herself.

[Aquillion]

In the first book, casters felt like force multipliers. Immensely valuable, but you still needed armies and warlords to do the actual legwork. Then it was established that casters can't be popped on purpose - when Jetstone lost its Dollamancer, they thought they couldn't get another one before Ace actually did pop. The apparent revelation that there's desperate casters in MK who'd do anything just for stable upkeep feels... weird, but I didn't read that story.

Most of those casters are Carnymancers, and my guess is that overlords generally don't know much about how to use them (and often don't trust them.)

Carnymancy seems powerful to us because we associate it with Charlie and Jojo, who are both masters of the discipline, incredibly powerful and well-placed, with the Arkendish backing it up. But in the real world, that touch limitation is absolutely brutal, and without access to links the stuff your carnymancers can do is probably fairly narrow - mostly just limited to buffs, which they have to actually be in the field to apply. On top of this, Carnymancy clearly has a significant risk of going horribly wrong and causing a backlash, and that's probably one of the few things people know about it - every so often you get a smart overlord with a strong carnymancer who drops powerful buffs on key troops, and it works well until suddenly it doesn't.

On top of that, the risk of a backlash means that weak carnymancers are really bad. A strong, clever one like Jojo can accomplish a lot, yes, but a weak one (or one with a poor understanding of their discipline) is likely to cause more problems than they solve. This is part of why they're not trusted.

Compared to, like, a Thinkamancer, or a Predictamancer, or a Moneymancer or a Turnamancer, all of whom can generate steady value, Carnymancers aren't that great. It's entirely reasonable to assume that low-level Carnymancers often just aren't worth their upkeep - or that, even when they are, most sides would fail to see it.

On top of this, hires from the MK probably have low loyalty. It's not hard to see why overlords would be reluctant to spend money on a caster of dubious loyalty, who was probably not very good in the first place if they're desperate, of a discipline infamous for being more trouble than it's worth.

Also remember that casters can't just choose to reduce their upkeep. No matter how desperate they are, you gotta pay full price. Even if a caster has lower-than-average value, most things are not reflected in their upkeep - terrible personality, unusually poor understanding of the discipline, low loyalty, doesn't matter, you still have to pay full price. That's plenty of reason to avoid the "dregs" casters who die from lack of upkeep in the Magic Kingdom. Spending your money on a bunch of troops may often be a better choice. (Remember, many natural allies have spell-like abilities that also act as force multipliers. Hiring the right kind of elves is more reliable than hiring a dubious caster.)

But Parson is smarter, right? Well, here's the thing. Sizemore clearly hates Carnymancers - he specifically forbade hiring one as Chief Caster. We can guess what Wanda thinks about them given that their discipline is all about bending Fate. Maggie had no incentive to put Parson in contact with casters that might sway him away from the Thinkamancers and towards Charlie. Honestly, back before Parson offended the MK, every caster surrounding Parson except Jack probably hated Carnymancers. And Jack wouldn't have brought it up except in an emergency, since he knew that every single voice in the room except him would have been against it. On top of that, prior to the battle of Jetstone, GK was stomping everyone - there was no indication that they needed Carnymancers, so Jack had no reason to rock the boat. And the risk that some of them could have been co-opted by Charlie was real.

Which means that 3 disciplines have a method of predicting the future.

We've always known that Mathemancy can predict the future - Parson frequently asks questions about the future to his bracer.

(Not as often as he should - it was a bit painful seeing how much better Benjamin was at using it than he is - but he's learning. Though I would assume that Moneymancy and Mathemancy are related fields, since they're both Numbers, so that's probably why Benjamin knew a lot about what the bracer could do.)

[Anteros]

We've always known that Mathemancy can predict the future - Parson frequently asks questions about the future to his bracer.

(Not as often as he should - it was a bit painful seeing how much better Benjamin was at using it than he is - but he's learning. Though I would assume that Moneymancy and Mathemancy are related fields, since they're both Numbers, so that's probably why Benjamin knew a lot about what the bracer could do.)

Who is this Parson character people keep talking about? Must be some minor character we haven't seen in so long I've forgotten them because it's certainly not anyone who has done anything in the story.

[Willie the Duck]

Who is this Parson character people keep talking about? Must be some minor character we haven't seen in so long I've forgotten them because it's certainly not anyone who has done anything in the story.

Wait, there's a story? I thought this was just a narrative world-building exercise.

[Welf]

Most of those casters are Carnymancers, and my guess is that overlords generally don't know much about how to use them (and often don't trust them.)

Carnymancy seems powerful to us because we associate it with Charlie and Jojo, who are both masters of the discipline, incredibly powerful and well-placed, with the Arkendish backing it up. But in the real world, that touch limitation is absolutely brutal, and without access to links the stuff your carnymancers can do is probably fairly narrow - mostly just limited to buffs, which they have to actually be in the field to apply. On top of this, Carnymancy clearly has a significant risk of going horribly wrong and causing a backlash, and that's probably one of the few things people know about it - every so often you get a smart overlord with a strong carnymancer who drops powerful buffs on key troops, and it works well until suddenly it doesn't.

I think the Carnymancers are an unbalanced class, probably for story reasons. A core concept of them is the "con". They manipulate others and can screw with contracts, all by touch. Which is completely useless since no sane ruler would allow another sides caster in their court. Only in combination with a link carnymancy becomes extremely powerful, but links are (supposedly) inherently dangerous, and all links are powerful.
Their other core competence is the ability to cheat or delay fate. Interesting in a philosophical way, but useless in practical terms as we have seen from the backer story with Digdoug.
They are not useless, they can help at the front with buffs and a variety of tricks. They also can help making other disciplines more powerful.
Their most useful aspect is probably their ability to think out of the box and inherent affinity for rule breaking. They could be good advisers to rulers and chief warlords and provide an unique point of view. In a way they are Erfworld's resident Parsons.
But as a caster class they are all over the place. They offer a number of abilities for the battlefield, but nothing really powerful until combined with a very smart warlord and other casters. In the capital they are basically overpriced courtiers.
In a way their uselessness is their biggest use. You can send them out for battle and give them the items and scrolls the more valuable casters produce. There they can either use them as intended or do something creative with them. And if the caster croaks you can cheaply hire a new one from the MK.

[Aquillion]

And if the caster croaks you can cheaply hire a new one from the MK.

Just a reminder (since I think this is another thing people forget about when discussing doomed casters in the MK) - you can't hire them cheaply. No matter how desperate they are, they can't reduce their upkeep. And casters have high upkeeps.

[deuterio12]

Most of those casters are Carnymancers, and my guess is that overlords generally don't know much about how to use them (and often don't trust them.)

Carnymancy seems powerful to us because we associate it with Charlie and Jojo, who are both masters of the discipline, incredibly powerful and well-placed, with the Arkendish backing it up. But in the real world, that touch limitation is absolutely brutal, and without access to links the stuff your carnymancers can do is probably fairly narrow - mostly just limited to buffs, which they have to actually be in the field to apply. On top of this, Carnymancy clearly has a significant risk of going horribly wrong and causing a backlash, and that's probably one of the few things people know about it - every so often you get a smart overlord with a strong carnymancer who drops powerful buffs on key troops, and it works well until suddenly it doesn't.

It's been working pretty well for Charlie.

On top of that, the risk of a backlash means that weak carnymancers are really bad. A strong, clever one like Jojo can accomplish a lot, yes, but a weak one (or one with a poor understanding of their discipline) is likely to cause more problems than they solve. This is part of why they're not trusted.

Compared to, like, a Thinkamancer, or a Predictamancer, or a Moneymancer or a Turnamancer, all of whom can generate steady value, Carnymancers aren't that great. It's entirely reasonable to assume that low-level Carnymancers often just aren't worth their upkeep - or that, even when they are, most sides would fail to see it.

Predictmancers aren't any easier to use, not only you have to think of ways to work with whatever they predict, chances also are they'll automatically join the big predictmancer conspiracy and sacrifice you and your side in the name of fate.

Thinkmancers seem to spend half their time frying/exploding their own brains and they also have their own super conspiracy.

Fair enough on turnmancers and moneymancers, but you won't be pulling any game-changing moves with just those at low level. You got a bit more of production, that's it.

On top of this, hires from the MK probably have low loyalty. It's not hard to see why overlords would be reluctant to spend money on a caster of dubious loyalty, who was probably not very good in the first place if they're desperate, of a discipline infamous for being more trouble than it's worth.

Hiring from the Mee Kay can't possibly result in lower loyalty than predictmancers/thinkmancers that technically popped in your side but will betray it for their greater conspiracy first chance they get.

Then there was good old Olive, loyal old chap she was.

Also remember that casters can't just choose to reduce their upkeep. No matter how desperate they are, you gotta pay full price. Even if a caster has lower-than-average value, most things are not reflected in their upkeep - terrible personality, unusually poor understanding of the discipline, low loyalty, doesn't matter, you still have to pay full price. That's plenty of reason to avoid the "dregs" casters who die from lack of upkeep in the Magic Kingdom. Spending your money on a bunch of troops may often be a better choice. (Remember, many natural allies have spell-like abilities that also act as force multipliers. Hiring the right kind of elves is more reliable than hiring a dubious caster.)

Natural allies are a lot harder to come by than casters, Stanley had to go all the way to the middle of nowhere to get his new elf knights and only found them thanks to the advice of Erfworld's oldest awakened tower.

And that's only one tribe they managed to ally with. Meanwhile there's hundreds of hobo casters in the Mee Kay desperate for work.

We've always known that Mathemancy can predict the future - Parson frequently asks questions about the future to his bracer.

(Not as often as he should - it was a bit painful seeing how much better Benjamin was at using it than he is - but he's learning. Though I would assume that Moneymancy and Mathemancy are related fields, since they're both Numbers, so that's probably why Benjamin knew a lot about what the bracer could do.)

If I had Hamster's super bracelet, I probably wouldn't do anything whitout checking it first. "Should I get up from bed today?"

I think the Carnymancers are an unbalanced class, probably for story reasons. A core concept of them is the "con". They manipulate others and can screw with contracts, all by touch. Which is completely useless since no sane ruler would allow another sides caster in their court. Only in combination with a link carnymancy becomes extremely powerful, but links are (supposedly) inherently dangerous, and all links are powerful.
Their other core competence is the ability to cheat or delay fate. Interesting in a philosophical way, but useless in practical terms as we have seen from the backer story with Digdoug.
They are not useless, they can help at the front with buffs and a variety of tricks. They also can help making other disciplines more powerful.
Their most useful aspect is probably their ability to think out of the box and inherent affinity for rule breaking. They could be good advisers to rulers and chief warlords and provide an unique point of view. In a way they are Erfworld's resident Parsons.
But as a caster class they are all over the place. They offer a number of abilities for the battlefield, but nothing really powerful until combined with a very smart warlord and other casters. In the capital they are basically overpriced courtiers.
In a way their uselessness is their biggest use. You can send them out for battle and give them the items and scrolls the more valuable casters produce. There they can either use them as intended or do something creative with them. And if the caster croaks you can cheaply hire a new one from the MK.

-You don't need to touch the enemy ruler, touching their warlords or one of their casters will be enough for plenty of mayhem. And diplomatic meetings are things that have happened multiple times.
-The best comboing with any other magic. Whatever rules are limiting your other casters, carnymancers can bend/ignore those. Charlescom is one if not the mightiest side in Erfworld for a reason, rules are for others, not for Charlie.
-As seen with Scarlet, their buffs can last a long time at long range so they can just stay in the capital buffing key warlords.
-We've seen Jojo get away with touching/casting on fellow casters at the Mee Kay at all the time, so if they can find your enemy/rival's casters there, a casual pat in the back will give you an huge edge.

[Welf]

Just a reminder (since I think this is another thing people forget about when discussing doomed casters in the MK) - you can't hire them cheaply. No matter how desperate they are, they can't reduce their upkeep. And casters have high upkeeps.

I should have specified I meant "cheap" in relative terms. A sought after class like Lookamancer or Thinkamancer will demand upkeep plus a hefty profit; they can ask for favourable terms like guarantee of staying away from battle or terminating th contract if it gets to dangerous. A Carnymancer might get a bad contract of actual upkeep + a bit, with no exit-clause and minimum length. Although then the ability of Carnys to weasel out of contracts might be very valuable.

-You don't need to touch the enemy ruler, touching their warlords or one of their casters will be enough for plenty of mayhem. And diplomatic meetings are things that have happened multiple times.

This might not be a good thing. Any Chief caster worth their salt should prevent any unit going near an enemy carny in a diplomativ meeting. At worst other sides might refuse to have any diplomacy.

-The best comboing with any other magic. Whatever rules are limiting your other casters, carnymancers can bend/ignore those. Charlescom is one if not the mightiest side in Erfworld for a reason, rules are for others, not for Charlie.
-As seen with Scarlet, their buffs can last a long time at long range so they can just stay in the capital buffing key warlords.

Combining with other caster is certainly where they the most useful. But not sure if they would be more useful than a thinkamacer that can perform a two-way link.
I did forget about Scarlett, that makes the much more useful.

-We've seen Jojo get away with touching/casting on fellow casters at the Mee Kay at all the time, so if they can find your enemy/rival's casters there, a casual pat in the back will give you an huge edge.

Suddenly I understand why they are so disliked. You can't heven shake hands with them without fear of being manipulated.

[Aquillion]

It's been working pretty well for Charlie.

Like I said, Charlie is perhaps the strongest Carnymancer in the entire world... and, much more importantly, he has the Arkendish. Most of his most impressive Carnymancer feats have been done by using the Arkendish to link up safely (often at range.)

Anyone who doesn't have the Arkendish can't link up remotely at all, and it seems like you need multiple master-class Thinkamancers to be able to be certain you can undo a link safely. And, of course, since you need all that, most people haven't experimented with links and don't know what they can accomplish - Wanda specifically noted that Stanley using a link was unusual and was one of the few smart decisions he made (of course, it's also possible / probable that it was actually her idea, but either way her grasp of other disciplines is unusual.) And the fact that Carnymancer is percieved as weak or dangerous or weird means that few overlords or casters will know what you can accomplish with it even in a link.

Predictmancers aren't any easier to use, not only you have to think of ways to work with whatever they predict, chances also are they'll automatically join the big predictmancer conspiracy and sacrifice you and your side in the name of fate.

Thinkmancers seem to spend half their time frying/exploding their own brains and they also have their own super conspiracy.

Fair enough on turnmancers and moneymancers, but you won't be pulling any game-changing moves with just those at low level. You got a bit more of production, that's it.


Hiring from the Mee Kay can't possibly result in lower loyalty than predictmancers/thinkmancers that technically popped in your side but will betray it for their greater conspiracy first chance they get.

Then there was good old Olive, loyal old chap she was.

Overlords don't know about the conspiracies (that's the point of them being secret!) I also don't think they cause as many problems for typical sides as they have for Stanley, whose Chief Warlord just so happened to be at the crux of fate.

And predictamancers can do amazing stuff while staying home, is what I mean. Marie was a major part of the reason Faq survived, since she was able to predict in coming attacks so Jack could veil the cities.

Natural allies are a lot harder to come by than casters, Stanley had to go all the way to the middle of nowhere to get his new elf knights and only found them thanks to the advice of Erfworld's oldest awakened tower.

And that's only one tribe they managed to ally with. Meanwhile there's hundreds of hobo casters in the Mee Kay desperate for work.

That's because of trickery by Charlie. They had lots of natural allies before that, and the Royal Crown Coalition had no trouble hiring a bunch of elves with varied abilities.

-You don't need to touch the enemy ruler, touching their warlords or one of their casters will be enough for plenty of mayhem. And diplomatic meetings are things that have happened multiple times.
-The best comboing with any other magic. Whatever rules are limiting your other casters, carnymancers can bend/ignore those. Charlescom is one if not the mightiest side in Erfworld for a reason, rules are for others, not for Charlie.
-As seen with Scarlet, their buffs can last a long time at long range so they can just stay in the capital buffing key warlords.
-We've seen Jojo get away with touching/casting on fellow casters at the Mee Kay at all the time, so if they can find your enemy/rival's casters there, a casual pat in the back will give you an huge edge.

Sure, it's not utterly useless. But those are pretty harsh constraints - and Carnymancy is distrusted, so if you hire a Carnymancer, people will be less likely to have diplomatic meetings with you.

Charlescom is one if not the mightiest side in Erfworld for a reason, rules are for others, not for Charlie.

Again, that's mostly because of the Arkendish, not Carnymancy. And even beyond that, he knows far more about the discipline than anyone else - most overlords wouldn't know that that stuff is possible. (And Charlie prefers to keep it that way.)

[JavaScribe]

And the fact that Carnymancer is percieved as weak or dangerous or weird means that few overlords or casters will know what you can accomplish with it even in a link.

Not to mention the fact that the Carnymancers and Thinkamancers have both declared it illegal for their members to cooperate in a caster link.

[deuterio12]

This might not be a good thing. Any Chief caster worth their salt should prevent any unit going near an enemy carny in a diplomativ meeting. At worst other sides might refuse to have any diplomacy.

Thinkmancers have outright mind control, yet we never see anybody refuse diplomatic meetings for sides with thinkmancers.

Then there was Don sleeping with a barbarian turnmancer.

Wanda got her big bro poisoned by a hippiemancer he slept with.

Dollmancers can curse your items if they get close enough.

Foolmancers will fool.

Basically every caster have their own dirty tricks if they can get close up and personal (except dirtmancers ironically) , yet diplomatic meetings still happen.

Combining with other caster is certainly where they the most useful. But not sure if they would be more useful than a thinkamacer that can perform a two-way link.

It's a pretty competitive option, just saying.

Suddenly I understand why they are so disliked. You can't heven shake hands with them without fear of being manipulated.

Yet again, Jojo gets away with it all the time.

Even Benjamin didn't notice when a carnymancer casted on him. A good conman knows how to gain people's trust to get close enough to work his magic. Carnymancy is all about working up the crowd.

And again, not really any worst than a thinkmancer giving you "suggestions" or a hippiemancer's sweet poisons or dollmancer curses.

Actually that may be why dirtmancers are so well trusted, they're the only casters that can't just screw you in subtle ways.

Like I said, Charlie is perhaps the strongest Carnymancer in the entire world... and, much more importantly, he has the Arkendish. Most of his most impressive Carnymancer feats have been done by using the Arkendish to link up safely (often at range.)

The Arkendish helps sure, but if Charlie was any other kind of caster he wouldn't have got so far.

Anyone who doesn't have the Arkendish can't link up remotely at all, and it seems like you need multiple master-class Thinkamancers to be able to be certain you can undo a link safely. And, of course, since you need all that, most people haven't experimented with links and don't know what they can accomplish - Wanda specifically noted that Stanley using a link was unusual and was one of the few smart decisions he made (of course, it's also possible / probable that it was actually her idea, but either way her grasp of other disciplines is unusual.)

Links help but aren't a requirement. A carnymancer can still twist the rules for others whitout one.

And the fact that Carnymancer is percieved as weak or dangerous or weird means that few overlords or casters will know what you can accomplish with it even in a link.

You can't have it both ways, either people consider Carnymancy weak or dangerous. If it's weak, then it's not dangerous.

And playing dangerous is the name of the game in Erfworld. If you're playing to win, you want the best tricks, and carnymancer has you quite well served on that.

Overlords don't know about the conspiracies (that's the point of them being secret!) I also don't think they cause as many problems for typical sides as they have for Stanley, whose Chief Warlord just so happened to be at the crux of fate.

So clearly the real problem of the carnymancers is not having their own conspiracy while the predictmancers and thinkmancers watch each other's backs while throwing "suggestions" at anybody that starts getting too suspicious.

This is, the thinkmancers are even rigged with self-destruct automatic spells should they even be considered too much of a liability.

And predictamancers can do amazing stuff while staying home, is what I mean. Marie was a major part of the reason Faq survived, since she was able to predict in coming attacks so Jack could veil the cities.

See, now that's a "worked until it didn't work".

Carnymancy based Charlescom is still working, predictmancy FAQ isn't.

That's because of trickery by Charlie. They had lots of natural allies before that, and the Royal Crown Coalition had no trouble hiring a bunch of elves with varied abilities.

Precisely because it was a coalition of multiple sides covering a massive area.

And hiring all those natural allies bankrupted them pretty fast and had to let them go. Notice how the decrypted armies in book 2 actually have no elves in sight despite having been counter-attacking through the royal lands.

Meanwhile hobo casters are still much easier to get directly from anybody's capital, no need to organize a multi-side coalition.

Sure, it's not utterly useless. But those are pretty harsh constraints - and Carnymancy is distrusted, so if you hire a Carnymancer, people will be less likely to have diplomatic meetings with you.

Again, why is carnymancy so distruted exactly when thinkmancers are mind-controling their own rulers and hippiemancers poison anybody they don't like and predictmancer sides keep being destroyed in bizarre conditions?

Again, that's mostly because of the Arkendish, not Carnymancy.

It's both, if either was missing he would've already fallen to fate. Plus otherwise Charlie wouldn't go through such great lengths to hide he's a carnymancer. Gotta keep the real source of his shenigans secret.

And even beyond that, he knows far more about the discipline than anyone else - most overlords wouldn't know that that stuff is possible. (And Charlie prefers to keep it that way.)

Again, you can't have it both ways. Either others know how carnymancy works and realize its potential, or they don't know how it works and then have no reason to hold prejudice against it.

Although just maybe it's Charlie himself subtly spreading ill propaganda against his own kind. The last thing he would want would be for others to start using carnymancy to start understanding and countering his rules bending/breaking. While others are in the dark about how carnymancy works, they'll have a much harder time prediting what Charlie can do, allowing him to stay at the top.

[DataNinja]

You can't have it both ways, either people consider Carnymancy weak or dangerous. If it's weak, then it's not dangerous.

Carnymancers can be considered dangerous while Carnymancy is still considered weak. If people see their magic as basically just being able to con people, that's not considered a useful talent, side-wise - but the fact that they could manipulate your own side, sell things to you that would be bad for you and make it sound reasonable, that's what people would probably consider to be dangerous.

[deuterio12]

Carnymancers can be considered dangerous while Carnymancy is still considered weak. If people see their magic as basically just being able to con people, that's not considered a useful talent, side-wise - but the fact that they could manipulate your own side, sell things to you that would be bad for you and make it sound reasonable, that's what people would probably consider to be dangerous.

If carnymancers can con your own side, they can also con other sides.

Just like thinkmancers can brainwash your own units or people from other sides.

Just like hippiemancers can poison your own units or people from other sides.

Etc, etc. It works both ways.

This is, Jojo was considered a valuable member from one of the "higher-than-thou" royal sides from the colition in book 1.

EDIT: now something that this talk made me consider is a new theory:

Charlie used carnymancy to become attuned to the arkendish.

That's why Fate is out to get him. He cheated in the highest leagues. Somebody else was/is meant to get the arkendish, but Charlie put himself as its owner with carnymancy shenigans and now Fate's out to "fix" that by any means necessary.

[DataNinja]

If carnymancers can con your own side, they can also con other sides.

Sure, if they can meet with them. But that means sending away your caster. When you could have any other caster, that doesn't just suck up your resources when you have nobody else you want to try and con. That's why I imagine they'd be considered weak, if that's what they're seen as.

[Aquillion]

You can't have it both ways, either people consider Carnymancy weak or dangerous. If it's weak, then it's not dangerous.

And playing dangerous is the name of the game in Erfworld. If you're playing to win, you want the best tricks, and carnymancer has you quite well served on that.

The point is, it is dangerous to the person employing a Carnymancer. Backlashes are dangerous to anyone who uses Carnymancers. Likewise, the touch range means Carnymancers are going to be distrusted by the people who are regularly around them, while being far less useful than disciplines with longer ranges.

The perception among most overlords is that Carnymancer is incredibly risky to use, and offers no benefits worth the substantial risks involved in employing it. We've been shown this repeatedly - look at how much the more "traditional" faction in GK wanted to avoid employing a Carnymancer, say. We're explicitly told over and over again that nobody trusts Carnymancers and, therefore, they don't want to employ them.

The Arkendish helps sure, but if Charlie was any other kind of caster he wouldn't have got so far.

That's both speculative and irrelevant. Most people don't have the Arkendish. He got so far because he has the Arkendish; he would be at best a localized threat without it, and most of that threat would come from his intelligence rather than his casting ability.

On top of this, we're arguing over how most people see Carnymancy, not about how strong it actually is (or could be, if everyone optimized it the way Charlie does.) Most people do not even know Charlie is a Carnymancer.

Most non-casters likely see Carnymancer as risky to employ and too weak to be worth the risk. That's all.

[Zalabim]

It's a petty thing, but I just can't entertain any arguments from someone that spells the letter "M" "Mee".

More broadly, the conning ability of carnymancers combined with the low loyalty of freshly turned units means that any carnymancer you hire is probably conning you/your side, first and foremost. If there was a regular business in hiring independent carnymancers, then there'd be little incentive to protect your side as an investment. All they want from you is your schmuckers and then they can move on to the next gig when their help proves too little to save your desperate side. Or however else they'll spin it to put all the blame on their previous employer.

[Aquillion]

More broadly, the conning ability of carnymancers combined with the low loyalty of freshly turned units means that any carnymancer you hire is probably conning you/your side, first and foremost. If there was a regular business in hiring independent carnymancers, then there'd be little incentive to protect your side as an investment. All they want from you is your schmuckers and then they can move on to the next gig when their help proves too little to save your desperate side. Or however else they'll spin it to put all the blame on their previous employer.

It's also worth pointing out that the unreliable nature of Carnymancy will sometimes cause catastrophic backlash even when the Carnymancer intended to use their abilities loyally; and I would imagine this frequently gets blamed on the Carnymancers themselves.

While Predictamancy is also sometimes unreliable, and I'm sure some people distrust it or don't want to bother with it, it has several advantages:

1. When Predictamancy goes wrong, it usually goes wrong in more clear, obvious ways. Overlords will hear stories of people who misinterpreted prophecies and will know to be cautious; but the blame will fall on the people who (mis-)interpreted the prophecy rather than the discipline of Predicamancy.

2. From a religious perspective, Predictamancy has a much more privileged position than Carnymancy. One is interpreting the will of the Titans, one is trying to defy it. (Yes, we have reasons to be skeptical about that. But most people don't.)

3. Predictamancy, despite its limits, is much easier to use than Carnymancy. One predictamancer, sitting safely in the capital, can give predictions for the entire side. You can even pay a Predictamancer to make a prediction for you from the Magic Kingdom without ever having them set foot in your side! The touch range for Carnymancy means you often have to take more risks to use a Carnymancer, making the cost-benefit analysis worse.