[Settings] What would a D&D-esque world with no magic, only psionics be like?

[Kiero]

In a kind of partner to this thread, here's another musing of mine.

Let's take your regular D&D world, but there's no magic (that doesn't mean all magic still exists, but is merely called "psionics" either, further that means neither arcane nor divine exist). None at all. It never existed, there's no tales of how it "died out" and it's never "coming back" or emerging. There is psionics, maybe even lots of it, but either way that's the source of weirdness and powers. What happens?

What would the typical party balance look like? Who would be nerfed by it (aside from the straight caster classes who no longer exist) and who would benefit?

I guess ultimately the question is, how interchangeable are the two?

I know there's Dark Sun, but that's from an old edition with very different assumptions built into the rules.

[Fax Celestis]

Probably like this.

[DreadSpoon]

I guess it depends on what you mean by having psionics - do you mean the Psionics rules, or a setting in which all magic is explained as being psionic manifestations? If the latter, the game would not change at all, because you'd just replace the word "magic" with "psionics" and the words "wizard" and "sorcerer" and "cleric" with "psionicist."

Just like your setting could say that arcane magic is fueled by a Weave, demonic pacts, natural ley lines, or anything else without having any need at all to change even a single mechanic. You can replace the gods with ideals, schools, or styles to allow clerics to have all the exact same rules without being "divine" in nature.

[Stormcrow]

Like X-men?

[Kiero]

I guess it depends on what you mean by having psionics - do you mean the Psionics rules, or a setting in which all magic is explained as being psionic manifestations? If the latter, the game would not change at all, because you'd just replace the word "magic" with "psionics" and the words "wizard" and "sorcerer" and "cleric" with "psionicist."

Just like your setting could say that arcane magic is fueled by a Weave, demonic pacts, natural ley lines, or anything else without having any need at all to change even a single mechanic. You can replace the gods with ideals, schools, or styles to allow clerics to have all the exact same rules without being "divine" in nature.

Whole point is no arcane or divine magic, just psionic powers as defined in the rules as psionic powers. This isn't just a "fluff" change where all magic becomes psionics, but one where there isn't any magic.

Probably like this.

Except that's sci-fi, not fantasy.

[jjpickar]

The entire world would be suffused with an overwrought crystal motif.

(unemotional voice)Psionic Overlords Finally Rule The World!
The Mages are dead!

[Fax Celestis]

Except that's sci-fi, not fantasy.

Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

[Roderick_BR]

A world without arcane power will have it's wizards and sorcerers replaced by the next thing, the psyonic classes. The focus will be about "expanding the mind" and what not, instead of "searching for ancient knowledge." Things won't really change much for the average person, merely a shift on who has powers.
Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

[Mewtarthio]

Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

In most cases, that's true. However, I would consider certain forms of sci-fi to not be fantasy. Namely, the really hard, honestly speculative sci-fi.

More importantly, however, the OP was asking what a DnD-esque world would be like without psionics. Basically, there's Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos, all sorts of planes, dragons, etc.

Ooh, scratch the dragons. They've got Sorcerer spellcasting, which likely disqualifies them automatically (I'm guessing creatures with SLAs could be kept, though).

First off, crystals are popular. Psionic people love crystals. Next, we've got the interesting question of interplanar travel. The Astral Caravan power allows a fifth-level nomad to transport anyone capable of manifesting the first-level power Astral Traveller. You'll note that, to travel between planes magically, you need a ninth-level cleric or a thirteenth-level Wizard to cast Plane Shift. Consequentially, interplanar travel is much more accessible, though it's still dangerous enough that most people will stay home (then again, adventurers aren't most people).

Don't forget about tone. Psionic characters get their powers by looking within themselves, rather than by pledging allegiance to a higher power or by studying tomes all day. Also note that psionic characters don't wave their hands around spouting gibberish to use their powers: They just concentrate really hard. I'd imagine that, in such a world, meditation would be quite popular. There would still be gods, even if only as the beliefs of the people, but worship would mostly be done through introspection.

[MrNexx]

Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

Or, alternatively, they won't change at all.

[Citizen Joe]

Psionics would replace magic. Some people would use intensive study, books and objects as foci; these would be wizards. Some people would use their faith to explain their powers, these would be priests. Supernatural creatures would have to go (or become psionic manifestations).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

For the most part, everything would be exactly the same.

Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

Or, alternatively, they won't change at all.

Indeed. Especially since the role of Cleric as mystically-powered defender of the faith can be filled by Ardents and Divine Minds. (OMG! It is teh Complete Psionic! Runuuunnnnz!!!1)

[knightsaline]

Imagine the Forgotten Realms during the time of troubles. Divine magic does not work unless you are in close proximity to the Avatar of the god, Arcane magic works erratically (summoning a dragon instead of firing a magic missile), Psionics work as normal.

If the world you play in had a godswar, everyone would say "so?"

A D&D world without magic (as westerners know it) would have more of an oriental flavor (those cultures preferring to harness the power within, rather than the power around them). If you really wanted to have some divine flavor, use Nature rather than Dieties. Psionic characters PP don't just restore by themselves, the power of Nature replenishes PP.

[Jerthanis]

Awesome.

(Stupid character limit)

To elaborate: It'd be really awesome. I'm not even a huge fan of psionics, but I think a setting with only psionics could be really cool and flavorful.

[Mewtarthio]

Hang on, I just had a thought. Is there any sort of psionic power that can resurrect the dead (besides psionic revivify, which only works within a few rounds of death)? The implications could be quite significant.

[Weezer]

there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

[Citizen Joe]

Hang on, I just had a thought. Is there any sort of psionic power that can resurrect the dead (besides psionic revivify, which only works within a few rounds of death)? The implications could be quite significant.

I think there is a way to 'yank' the consciousness out of someone and put it into something else. A ressurection may involve travelling to the afterlife plane, trapping the soul in something/creature, then taking it back and transferring it back into a suitable host.

It may also be done as classic Greek Mythology where you have to go to Hades and take person back forcibly.

[MrNexx]

there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

No, clerical magic was just odd (elemental based, some of it granted by sorcerer-kings, some by spirits of the land, some by the elements themselves). It was wizard magic that was potentially corrupting.

[Lemur]

I'd play it. Egoists would probably be a bit more popular, since they have the best access to damage control and restoration effects. Rangers and Paladins would presumably get one of those non-spellcasting variants floating around.

Ooh, scratch the dragons. They've got Sorcerer spellcasting, which likely disqualifies them automatically (I'm guessing creatures with SLAs could be kept, though).

Except for crystal dragons, of course. Dang crystals :P

Hang on, I just had a thought. Is there any sort of psionic power that can resurrect the dead (besides psionic revivify, which only works within a few rounds of death)? The implications could be quite significant.

Reality Revision can do it. However, it's a 9th level power with a 5000 XP cost, and it's only about as effective as a standard Ressurect spell. That is, you need the body, and he still loses a level. If there's no body available, you can remake it with one Reality Revision, and bring it back to life with a second. So it's technically possible, but much more painful to go through. Yet another reason to like egoists, for prompt revivification.

[serow]

My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

[EvilElitest]

Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

Close, but not quite correct. Science Fiction needs to be set in the future, and 99 percent of the time with greater technology. The original planets of the Apes is Science Fiction, as Darker than Black, because both are set in the future. Star Wars is debatable because of the "Long time ago" line, but i really is just Science Fiction. Science Fiction mostly relies on advanced technology. A world that is in the past but with advanced technology is Science Fiction Fantasy.
from,
EE

[MrNexx]

My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Jack Vance's The Dying Earth?

Of course, then there's the ones that were designed around it, like the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Eberron...

Oh, hey, Final Fantasy I used a variation on it.

[Dervag]

Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

Actually, there is a fairly well established difference.

Science fiction creates hypothetical worlds by projecting current trends and technologies forward.

Fantasy creates hypothetical worlds by projecting sideways into places that are not, were not, and can never be.

There is, of course, a large area of overlap between the two, such as Star Wars and John Ringo's Council Wars series (which uses science fictional trappings to justify the construction of what is in essence a fantasy setting).

My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Except for Vance, right?

Star Wars is debatable because of the "Long time ago" line, but i really is just Science Fiction.

Given that the setting is permeated by "the Force," which allows people to perform quasipsionic acts of power, I'd say it's a mix of science fiction and fantasy.

[EvilElitest]

My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Ummmmmm?

Greyhawk?
FR?
Ebberon?
Midnight?
Dragonlance (R.I.P.)
Ravenloft
Even Dark Sun just right off the bat

Also i like the Vancitain system, it is the standard one
from,
EE

[Zincorium]

Ummmmmm?

Greyhawk?
FR?
Ebberon?
Midnight?
Dragonlance (R.I.P.)
Ravenloft
Even Dark Sun just right off the bat

Also i like the Vancitain system, it is the standard one
from,
EE

Those settings were forced to use vancian magic, it wouldn't have made any sense otherwise, because those settings appeared after D&D had already decided that it would use vancian and none other (psionics only became something of the same category as magic in 2nd ed, from what I recall).

To put it another way, if D&D had not used the vancian system, not a single one of those you mention would have had it.

And I'm puzzled by that last sentence of yours. Do you mean that you like Vancian magic only because you're used to it, without any other reasons?

[Mewtarthio]

Ummmmmm?

Greyhawk?
FR?
Ebberon?
Midnight?
Dragonlance (R.I.P.)
Ravenloft
Even Dark Sun just right off the bat

Also i like the Vancitain system, it is the standard one
from,
EE

Okay, outside of DnD settings and Jack Vance's A Dying Earth, are there any fantasy settings that use Vancian casting? To be honest, I think the most common magic is ritual magic, "spellcasters cast as much as they want, but it drains them physically/spiritually." I've heard that Vancian casting was selected for DnD explicitly because it bore no similarities to real-world religions, so it's natural that it wouldn't appear in many fantasy settings.

Also, Star Wars is pure fantasy. Okay, maybe the droids and prosthetics are sci-fi, but everything else is just pretty blinking lights and big black boxes that look all spacey. Fantasy set in space is still fantasy.

[MrNexx]

To put it another way, if D&D had not used the vancian system, not a single one of those you mention would have had it.

Wellllll.... yes and no. The Forgotten Realms, likely not; Ed was writing for that long before there was a D&D. However, Dragonlance was designed specifically around D&D's magic system. Eberron (possibly), Ravenloft, Dark Sun, etc., are all in the same boat... they might not have had Vancian magic if D&D didn't use it, but that's because they would've used whatever magic system D&D used.

Mind you, I'm not a die-hard defender of Vancian magic. However, you do need to make alterations to many spells (such as were made in the psionics system) if you switch to a spell point system.

[Kiero]

I'm not even going to bother with the pointless debate over whether fantasy and sci-fi are the same thing. As far as I'm concerned there are fairly stark differences in the genres (Star Wars is pulp/space fantasy and doesn't prove the two are the same), and I'm really not interested in discussing it. If you must go round the usual loops, please take it to another thread.

A world without arcane power will have it's wizards and sorcerers replaced by the next thing, the psyonic classes. The focus will be about "expanding the mind" and what not, instead of "searching for ancient knowledge." Things won't really change much for the average person, merely a shift on who has powers.
Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

I'm not sure why people assume when I said "no magic" I only mean "no arcane magic". I mean none of any stripe, arcane or divine. There is only psionics.

Is there healing with psionics?

there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

And as I said in the OP, I'm well aware of Dark Sun, it's not what I'm looking for.

My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Many other settings do feature all magic as one. One that immediately comes to mind is Wheel of Time, of all things. Channeling bears many hallmarks of psychic activity.


Someone said elsewhere that a party would consist of a Psionic Warrior, a Psionic Rouge, a Psion, and a Society Mind.

Why would that be the case? Why wouldn't anyone play non-psions?

[MrNexx]

Someone said elsewhere that a party would consist of a Psionic Warrior, a Psionic Rouge, a Psion, and a Society Mind.

Why would that be the case? Why wouldn't anyone play non-psions?

For much the same reasons few people play non-spellcasters in normal D&D... they're behind the power curve.

[Kiero]

For much the same reasons few people play non-spellcasters in normal D&D... they're behind the power curve.

Are you telling me it's truly the case that the only thing people who play D&D are interested in is the power curve?