OOTS #315 - The Discussion Thread

[Piedmon_Sama]

I am having a hard time remembering when there's been a comic thread which didn't have some people saying, "This strip sucks and clearly shows how OotS is losing everything that makes it worth reading. If Burlew wants to save it he must [do whatever he's not doing in the strip in question--less jokes, more jokes, less plot, more plot]."

And I gotta say, since it seems that's coming under scrutiny ATM----that is definitely a good thing. If you get negative feedback again and again, then I'm thinking at some point someone's actually going to make a worthwhile suggestion to improve it. Law of averages.

[molonel]

I think several of the detractors have made some good points and posted valid opinions, but their choice to use aggressive language has left an easy out for those who disagree. They can point at things like 'handjob' and summarily dismiss their entire content.

Some people are going to dismiss any and all criticism out-of-hand because there is absolutely nothing wrong with the BEST. COMIC. EVAR!!!!!11111 and shame on you for suggesting otherwise.

Do I fill my posts to the brim with vulgarity, swearing, or harsh language? Of course not. I never have. I have points, I can back them up, I read the comic. Ergo, I should be able to participate in this discussion. There are several folks, however, who would like to foist me out of the discussion for any excuse whatsoever.

"He's a troll!"
"He used the word 'handjob' in a post! That offends me so much I'm going to repeat the word as many times as I can!"
(Never mind the accuracy of that description.)
"That dirty blank-blankety blank son of a blank insulted me!"

As Carmachu said, "If its not your tone, its your language. If its not your language, its your mannerisms, if its not that, its something else. Some will look for any excuse."

Why do you, and several others, continue to assume that I want violence and action? I normally love the romantic parts of books and movies(I really like you've got mail). My problem is not with the subject matter, it is how this is being written out: slow and predictable. There really isn't much there despite page after page of drawings.

Because, obviously, that's easier than confronting the plain truth that you are RIGHT, or have a valid point.

[Holy_Knight]

Rich, I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of people are going to criticize me for saying this.

Yep, I am going to criticize you. Not for your opinion, but for the way you said it. Some people have said things like "I thught the bug zapper joke detracted from the strip" or "The comic seems to be dragging lately, it needs more action". Those are constructive. Saying "The comic sucks", calling it "crap", and saying people who disagree with you are basically giving Rich "handjobs" isn't. If you really aren't trolling, you're doing a good imitation. On the other hand, if you really are "A reader who cares", take some points from people who manage to express criticism without being inflammatory and offensive.

Some will anyway, since it clashes with their view on the comic.

I've seen that line of thinking before. "Its not what you said, its HOW you said it" Line of logic.

If its not your tone, its your language. If its not your language, its your mannerisms, if its not that, its something else.

Some will look for any excuse.

That is not an excuse, carmachu; it does matter how you say things. If you'd like an example, try this: The next time someone invites you to dinner and offers you a dish you don't like, don't say "Oh, no thanks, that's not my favorite". Say: "Aw, sick! That crap is disgusting!" If they react poorly to that, just explain to them that it doesn't matter how you say things.

[Felinoid]

Question away. I question whether or not you are simply a mindless fanboy - does that make you one?

The obvious answer is no, and applies in reverse.

(And before anyone comes back with, "Hey! More insults!" being called a troll is both insulting, and namecalling. I don't like being called a troll, either, and nobody seems to mind when several people have slapped that label on me.)

A fair comparison, and as I said, I am only questioning. I have not yet made up my mind, and in all likelyhood I will have forgotten this in a week or two (unless you keep it up).

You cannot honestly read some of the drivel in this thread without imagining that it could, quite easily, be [censored].

Perhaps you cannot, but I assure you that I can with great ease. ;) And I could still do without the vulgarity, TYVM.

And yes, I stand by my statement that _-*** IF ***-_ you are a mindless fanboy (is that "if" set off carefully enough so everyone can see it, or do I need to put a few pink post-it notes around it, too?) then you do not belong in any legitimate discussion of a web comic's worth or lack of it. That applies equally in discussions about TV shows, movies, books or whatever.

The same could be said of people who mindlessly hate the comic for no reason. Fortunately, I have seen neither type in this thread. :)

If you cannot ever under any circumstances admit fault with something, then join a cult. And saying, "Well, I can admit a fault if it's delivered to me slathered in sugar, pretty pretty please, and on a silver tray" then that is no different.

Implication correction: "If you cannot ever under any circumstances admit fault with something, even when it is at fault, ..." The question is whether or not the comic really is at fault, and differing opinions does not mean someone is wrong. One person finding fault with something does not make it a fault, nor does one person not finding fault with it mean there is no fault. Personally, I'd say it's a little too close to tell. Some people even like the slow pace.

If insults bother you, then they should ALWAYS bother you in a discussion, and not simply because they appear in the posts of someone you disagree with.

I guess I did not make it explicitly clear, but yes, I was bothered by Moonlover's implication as well. On the other hand, there is a question of degree. And your constant vulgarity bothers me more.

No-conflict zones are NOT an admirable goal. I once enjoyed reading the forums of Monte Cook, who was (and is still) my favorite D&D game designer. His forums used to be a place where people came together and argued about rules, politics, whatever. Mods slapped down the obvious trolls, but as long as you had a valid point, you were pretty much allowed to say what you wanted.

Enter the "No conflict" policy. The forums dried up, for the most part. It can now take a month for a thread to move down to the bottom of the page in the rules forum. Fanboys prevail. Most of the better writers moved over to Enworld.org where they don't have people looking over their shoulder all the time.

Message forums thrive on conflict. They die when the only people allowed to say anything are yes-men.

I agree with you in principle. But I consider disagreement (the thing that discussions thrive on) to be far different from conflict (the thing that destroys otherwise good discussions). Disagreement has a much better connotation than conflict, in my mind, and a much better result. Conflict is unneccessary and unwanted; disagreement is welcomed. :)


EDIT:

Some people are going to dismiss any and all criticism out-of-hand because there is absolutely nothing wrong with the BEST. COMIC. EVAR!!!!!11111 and shame on you for suggesting otherwise.

Actually, I do see a problem with that. I hate leet. >_<

And people who would discount an opinion simply because it is different are not people to worry about. :) They're welcome to their closed-mindedness.

Do I fill my posts to the brim with vulgarity, swearing, or harsh language? Of course not. I never have. I have points, I can back them up, I read the comic. Ergo, I should be able to participate in this discussion. There are several folks, however, who would like to foist me out of the discussion for any excuse whatsoever.

To the brim? No. But I do think that ANY is too much. Call me a prude if you will, but it simply isn't neccessary, especially when the same thing can be derived from starred swear words. And (though again I cannot speak for others) I don't wish you to leave, only to choose your words more carefully when forming your criticsm (as in lose the vulgarity). :) But you likely don't care what I think. ;)

Because, obviously, that's easier than confronting the plain truth that you are RIGHT, or have a valid point.

Far easier, and more understandable. It's more understandable that someone would disagree because they simply do not know as much, a bit harder to understand that someone may be just as smart and simply have a different opinion. Hence why people go to "stupid", "troll", or "fanboy" as their first thought instead of "everyone's entitled to their own opinion". Quite lamentable. :'(

[saraswati]

on Today at 3:40pm, saraswati wrote:
I do have a problem with people posting universal statements with assumptions that their opinions are truth and who back those assumptions up by insulting anyone who disagrees with their "universal truth". In my honest opinion, this happens more often with people who are posting criticism ("the complete lack of plot since strip #number whatever is proof that the Giant is coasting and has nothing to say, and people who are afraid to say that are suckup fanboys") . But it also does happen from the other side too ("This was great and whoever didn't like it doesn't understand humor/rich's goals/storytelling").

So - long story short - people who write negative comments need to separate their opinions from universal truth at each and every opportunity, but fanboys can ra-ra all day long.

Please check what you are quoting a little more closely Molonel. I made it very clear that people who are praising the comic also make claims as universal truth, and that I also disapprove of that. Granted, I also said that I thought that critics did that more often than praisers, but I stated that was my own opinion on the subject.

My post does not say what you claim it says. That's a clarification.

edit# added a word, feel free to guess

[JoseB]

Why was the post with the link to the thread in the RPGHost community forums taken away?

http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?t=43788

[stevec]

One person has already said that if I didn't like the comics, I could ... you know ... do something else.

Doesn't that particular bit of wit apply equally well to those who don't like reading criticism about their favorite web comic on a forum which is evidently designed strictly for praising the creator?

I guess I am the person who you are referring to, so I will do you the courtesy of responding to you directly. I was suggesting that continuing to spend time on something that is annoying you when it is supposed to be a harmless diversion (at worst) or a thing that makes your day better (at best) is not a good or a healthy thing.

I don't come to the message boards to either mindlessly praise Rich or to read comments from people who do so. I come to these boards to effectively spend some time with people who share a common interest with me. Sometimes it's to discuss where the strip is going, or what happened in an episode, and sometimes its to discuss something completely unrelated on one of the other forums. Essentially, it's to hang out in a relaxed atmosphere with people with whom I share at least one common interest.

I think criticism of the strip can be a good and useful thing. There have been some plot lines that I haven't really thought were that interesting, and that's largely because Rich is writing to a larger audience than just me. Which is a good thing. However criticism that doesn't have a point to it is ultimately not going to get you anywhere, and frankly all it does is annoy the other people who don't agree with you.

I don't come here to see someone say over and over, that the strip sucks, use borderline profanity and be insulting to everyone who has been enjoying the strips recently. Calling someone a fanboy and using the terms you have been using is an insult: make no mistake!

When I suggested that you take a step away from here for a few weeks, it was not to say you should not read the message boards, but rather that it might be a good idea to get away from the whole comic for a while, because you (and some of the other posters as well) seem not to be enjoying reading it. When I really don't like something that I spend my free time with, I tend to not keep doing it.

That's what I'm saying.

We get the fact that you don't like the strip. We get the fact that you think anyone who does is a fanboy. I'm not here to insult you as a person, but I really suggest that you take a step back from what you're doing and consider if you would do the same thing in person that you're writing here.

It is a comic strip at the end of the day. A funny one on most days, but no one should get as ticked off about as you have been.

--Steve

[Ted_Stryker]

Why was the post with the link to the thread in the RPGHost community forums taken away?

http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?t=43788

Good question, did a mod take it down or the original poster?

A careful reading of that thread will reveal that I made the "ask for a refund" point over at WebRPG, and that I advised replacing the word "suck" with "deteriorate" when molonel asked for opinions on his opening post here. But he is being true to himself with how he's carried himself here, I'll give him that. :)

[rosebud]

Why do you, and several others, continue to assume that I want violence and action?

Because I didn't? :) I only put my own preferences up so as to be fair to you when asking the question. My interest in asking was to see if there was any genre preference playing out.

I normally [i]love[i] the romantic parts of books and movies(I really like you've got mail). My problem is not with the subject matter, it is how this is being written out: slow and predictable. There really isn't much there despite page after page of drawings.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I love some of the recent drawings and strips. :) (Not 100%, but I do enjoy them.)

[Kanashimi]

Okay, so I have to admit that sequentially reading posts on the comic anywhere after about page 7 or 8 is really an interesting study in human psychology. Before about 7, everyone is talking about what they like about the comic, what was funny, or just saying "woot first page"

Then as people get a little more bored with re-re-re-re-reading the comic, they find little things to pick on about it, or compain that there isn't a new one, or compain about any number of things regarding this free comic.

This is absolutely not to insult or offend anyone, but everyone who has been complaining about OOTS, go back and look at this and any other long topics about the comics, especially when Rich has been "late"

It's really quite a fascinating look into the degeneration of politeness as a society.

So, this is a very serious sociological question that I'm thinking of writing a paper on...

To anyone who has been griping lately, or has posted something negative about the strip AFTER posting something positive, would you please IM me and tell me if similar things happen in your real-life relationships?

I'm talking friends, family, SOs. how things start off great, and they're the best person in the world, and then familiarity breeds contempt. I want to know if this really is just a phenomenom that happens when people feel more free and secure when behind a computer screen rather than face to face.

Thanks

[hidufel]

Eh I'll throw my hat in...

I'll have to start checking the boards her more often. this thread seems to have taken on a life of its own almost.

I have to say that my interest in this story is starting to lax, though. Id been an eager fan of the strip , but fell off reaing it sometime around issue 200. I just couldnt stand the posting rates, but the story was funny and great. Coming back, i spent quite a bit of time rereading from issue 1, and now that im caught up... im grinding my teeth again!

Hopefully we can get into some action soon. All this character development is killing me! (not to mention the slow 2 a week posting!)

[Piedmon_Sama]

Just because it's happened before, you shouldn't assume this is going to blow over as soon as Rich updates again and mollifies "the complainers" (there people go polarizing again.)

Individually, there hasn't been anything wrong with any one particular strip. Sure, this one was a little saccharine, but the ending gag got a "heh" from me. That isn't the problem. The problem is that as a whole, they're BORING. Haley can't confess her love to Elan. No, no wait--she tries! She can't do it. No, no, wait...

This is a basic rule of Improv Theater, see. You never vacillate. You never let the dialogue descend to banal back and forth, or that will just KILL your act. "Yes I did," "no you didn't!" "will she? Won't she?" That gets real old, real fast. The rate at which these comics come, like water dripping from a faucet, compounds it further. Now it's like banal back and forth, but with big, James T. Kirkesque pregnant pauses between each "yes I did!" "No you didn't!"

I have read more than a few of the topics in my time and I've never seen as large a number of people putting forward their dissatisfaction of the strip. I think this has been building for a few weeks now, as a significant number of readers who post on the forums feel like their time is being wasted.

[theKOT]

I would like to add to my previous posts that I have been dissatisfied with sequences before, but never for this long. Still, if the strips at the end of this arc are very good, then I will probably end up satisfied with it as a whole.

[WarriorTribble]

Kanashimi, it seems to me that the page 7+ people are a different type of OOTS fan then the pg 1-6.

Imo, Rich has a large enough fan base that I think there's enough people who'd constantly refresh their comic page so they can see the latest issue asap, and comment first and fill 6 pages. These fans will almost always say positive things about the comic.

Page 7+ group is everyone else. They may or may not like the comic, and may or may not be very tactful about it.

[Dirigible]

tags. They are there for as much the beneft of Rich being influenced/ticked off by stuff as other readers who didn't want the story "spoiled" for them. With the tag, they can easily see that a thread may contain information (even speculative) that may reduce their enjoyment of future strips.

Aw c'mon, you gotta admit it's a little silly that if I say 'I bet Haley's attempt to kiss Elan will be interrupted by a lich attack', I gotta attach spoiler tags to it?

That one's about the author, not about the fans.

[Kanashimi]

Kanashimi, it seems to me that the page 7+ people are a different type of OOTS fan then the pg 1-6.

Imo, Rich has a large enough fan base that I think there's enough people who'd constantly refresh their comic page so they can see the latest issue asap, and comment first and fill 6 pages. These fans will almost always say positive things about the comic.

Page 7+ group is everyone else. They may or may not like the comic, and may or may not be very tactful about it.

Wow. I didn't think anyone was going to get my point so quickly. Congratulations and thank you.

I look forward to the first 6 pages of the next comic's dialogue!

[Brother_Hood]

Rich is far from done with this, I'm sure. In my opinion he's far from out of ideas, when you recall his original point was to poke holes in common RPG ideas and silly rules.

I've already given up a strip where the author jumped the shark badly. Rich is nowhere close.

[molonel]

I have not yet made up my mind, and in all likelyhood I will have forgotten this in a week or two (unless you keep it up).

Cool. I agree to forget about this in a week or two, as well.

... unless YOU keep it up.

:D

Troublemaker.

Perhaps you cannot, but I assure you that I can with great ease. ;)

Oh, I'm sure you can. But with great ease? Sorry. I don't believe you.

Some people even like the slow pace.

Some people enjoy watching curling during the Olympics, and drink pilsners. There is simply no accounting for bad taste.

I guess I did not make it explicitly clear, but yes, I was bothered by Moonlover's implication as well. On the other hand, there is a question of degree. And your constant vulgarity bothers me more.

Again, I observe an utter paucity of criticism directed at Moonlover, and a strange correlation between those who disagree with me, and those who take great offense at my "vulgarity."

When your actions match your words, I'll think about believing you. But the lack of consistency is telling.

I agree with you in principle. But I consider disagreement (the thing that discussions thrive on) to be far different from conflict (the thing that destroys otherwise good discussions). Disagreement has a much better connotation than conflict, in my mind, and a much better result. Conflict is unneccessary and unwanted; disagreement is welcomed. :)

To the brim? No. But I do think that ANY is too much.

If you think ANY is too much, doesn't that say more about you than it does me? Especially when you focus on that?

Call me a prude if you will ...

Okay.

Prude.

... but it simply isn't neccessary, especially when the same thing can be derived from starred swear words.

So if I hypothetically called someone a f*cking lame*ss moron who would rather wh*ck off in a fanboy c*rclejerk, you'd be okay with that, but because I use the word "handjob," that offends you?

Yours is a curious morality, my friend.

But you likely don't care what I think. ;)

That's a safe bet.

Please check what you are quoting a little more closely Molonel. I made it very clear that people who are praising the comic also make claims as universal truth, and that I also disapprove of that.

Oh, I assure you, I read what you SAID. But what you DO is ultimately more important than what you SAY. And there is a gap between the two. You've posted 73 times on this forum, saraswati. Have you ever gotten on somebody's case for stating a positive opinion without qualifying it as ONLY their opinion?

I'm willing to bet you haven't.

Granted, I also said that I thought that critics did that more often than praisers, but I stated that was my own opinion on the subject. My post does not say what you claim it says. That's a clarification.

Let me be blunt. What you're doing is trying to shut down criticism by asking critics to pepper their posts with statements like "Now, this is ONLY my opinion!" or "I'm not speaking for anyone else!" or somesuch. You SAY you don't think people with positive comments should do that, either. But you didn't jump into this discussion to chastise someone for posting a positive opinion without that sort of ridiculous and unnecessary qualification.

Don't TELL me that you're consistent. Instead, ACT consistent. Because words are cheap.

[Lilly]

The Fairy Modmother: First, watch your language. Second, insulting each other and overly rampant insulting will not be acctable on these boards ever. So stop it. Now.

[HypnoticMonk]

Cool. I agree to forget about this in a week or two, as well.

... unless YOU keep it up.

:D

Troublemaker.


Oh, I'm sure you can. But with great ease? Sorry. I don't believe you.


Some people enjoy watching curling during the Olympics, and drink pilsners. There is simply no accounting for bad taste.


Again, I observe an utter paucity of criticism directed at Moonlover, and a strange correlation between those who disagree with me, and those who take great offense at my "vulgarity."

When your actions match your words, I'll think about believing you. But the lack of consistency is telling.



If you think ANY is too much, doesn't that say more about you than it does me? Especially when you focus on that?


Okay.

Prude.


So if I hypothetically called someone a f*cking lame*ss moron who would rather wh*ck off in a fanboy c*rclejerk, you'd be okay with that, but because I use the word "handjob," that offends you?

Yours is a curious morality, my friend.


That's a safe bet.


Oh, I assure you, I read what you SAID. But what you DO is ultimately more important than what you SAY. And there is a gap between the two. You've posted 73 times on this forum, saraswati. Have you ever gotten on somebody's case for stating a positive opinion without qualifying it as ONLY their opinion?

I'm willing to bet you haven't.


Let me be blunt. What you're doing is trying to shut down criticism by asking critics to pepper their posts with statements like "Now, this is ONLY my opinion!" or "I'm not speaking for anyone else!" or somesuch. You SAY you don't think people with positive comments should do that, either. But you didn't jump into this discussion to chastise someone for posting a positive opinion without that sort of ridiculous and unnecessary qualification.

Don't TELL me that you're consistent. Instead, ACT consistent. Because words are cheap.

I like pudding, how about you? :D

[6079smithw]

It seems as though there are a few major logical flaws with arguments being presented here.

1.) It's not right that nobody complains about the innummerable "Wow that's great!" posts and people get mad about "Grr you suck!" posts.
Well, obviously there's going to be an overall positive on these threads, because anyone who never liked the Giant's sense of humor isn't going to be here in the first place. Therefore, there is something of an assumption that each strip will be good.
Thus, you don't really need any evidence to back up "Wow that's great!", whereas dissenting opinions need a bit more; if you were going to assume they'd be bad, you wouldn't be reading them.

Of course, most of the dissenters do have specific complaints, but the burden of proof is on them, so they require more evidence.

2.) All of the readers used to like every strip, but now only some of them do!
Well, that's possible, but the overall readership has grown. It's easy to please 99 out of 100 people with a very specifically niche oriented strip. Now, the comic has changed tone somewhat, and this seems to have brought a significantly different fanbase- in other words, he may only be pleasing 20,000 out of 30,000 with a given strip, but the tastes of the fanbase have diversified, such that pleasing the vast majority of them has become more difficult.

[ZacK88]

I like pudding, how about you? :D

Aye.. Its like my mum says, "Pass the bean dip" ;)

[HypnoticMonk]

Aye.. Its like my mum says, "Pass the bean dip" ;)

Well it was either that or "Soooo.. how about those Mets?"

[Shadow_of_Light]

Do you feel that comments on the strip should be limited only to praise?

I am not averse to constructive criticism.

[Felinoid]

Cool. I agree to forget about this in a week or two, as well.

... unless YOU keep it up.

:D

Troublemaker.

Okay.

Prude.

That's a safe bet.

LOL. ;D Though I doubt it was your intention, I begin to like you more.

Oh, I'm sure you can. But with great ease? Sorry. I don't believe you.

Well, there is the whole "don't think about a pink elephant" thing, but to be honest I don't think I even could imagine what you describe. Which is a rare lapse in my imagination.

Again, I observe an utter paucity of criticism directed at Moonlover, and a strange correlation between those who disagree with me, and those who take great offense at my "vulgarity."

When your actions match your words, I'll think about believing you. But the lack of consistency is telling.

Ah, of course. Well, you see, I only believe in constructive criticism (at least on the internet where I can choose my words with more care. And TBH, there's really nothing for me to say to Moonlover. There's no way to make the concept "better", because it is flawed at the very core. I am also hoping beyond hope that it was meant tongue-in-cheek, as I would not like to think that someone would actually mean something that *ahem* ...silly. ;) You, OTOH, have the problem of vulgarity, which is easily fixable if you try. :)

If you think ANY is too much, doesn't that say more about you than it does me? Especially when you focus on that?

As I said in the paragraph above, I focus on it because that is your only problem. Your arguments were well-argued, your points valid, etc. Still wondering about the attitude with which you made them, but that's likely more a function of your strong personality than an intent to troll.

So if I hypothetically called someone a [hmm hmm hmm], you'd be okay with that, but because I use the word [word], that offends you?

Yours is a curious morality, my friend.

Mine is a curious insanity... :P For the record, you lost me at around "who would rather..." with the vulgarity. Before that is fine for vulgarity, but the directing of it makes it an insult, which would be a different reason to object. :) And yes, I do divide these things up a bit unneccessarily. :P

[Kanashimi]

Well it was either that or "Soooo.. how about those Mets?"

Pudding is good, but I prefer minor league baseball.

Boy, I bet the next comic is going to be great!

;)

[Django]

Pudding is good, but I prefer minor league baseball.

Boy, I bet the next comic is going to be great!

;)

I second that notion!

Mayhap our bosom chum Belkar will delight us with more of his delightfully misanthropic hijinx.
Is some wanton stabbing too much to hope, nay, to dream for?

[chigger]

*sniff sniff*

I smell a massive quantity of slinging sausages.
::)
Typical.

[rtaylor]

I am not averse to constructive criticism.

Remember, constructive criticism includes positive as well as negative comments - you may be making the error of assuming criticism is negative (that is the common use, but by attaching "constructive" to it you are invoking the more proper use). So if you want only constructive critcism, that actually would put an end to the stream of "wow, great strip" posts that we see here, and require more substance in the good as well as the bad (though honestly the bad usually does have more substance than just the plain "this stinks").

Put me in the camp that thinks the strip has declined, largely due to pacing. The strip hasn't had a solid plot arc since issue #120, but rather a drawn out segue into the next arc that will happen if the action ever leaves the Azure City. I'm afraid I've lost patience with the drawn-out nature of what, in a novel, I'd consider a pause between major stories.

Not all is bad - the strip does still make me laugh on occasion, and when the action has gotten back to Zykon, I've usually liked it. But I feel like the strip is suffer an extended creative dry spell.

I admit the late updating getting to me as well - I have to view it as unprofessional, free or not. There are webcartoonist who produce a buffer to avoid late updates, and it's my opinion that that is the better way to go.

Russ

[General_Ghoul]

Felinoid, I am surprised to see you here. This is a 3.5 comic, how can you stand it?