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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Just for reference, this is a simple list and a flowchart that shows when you can and cannot dual wield, and can or cannot add your ability score to a roll. The confusing rules for Dual-Weapon Fighting boil down to six simple rules and two exceptions. Feel free to also use this thread to compare and debate the merits of different types of dual-wielding.

    Spoiler: Rules for Dual-Wielding
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    1. Anyone may dual wield
    2. The only weapons that may be dual wielded are those with the Light property; both weapons must have this property
    ◊ EXCEPTION: Ignore #2 if you take the feat Dual Wielder.
    3. You may only attack with a second weapon if you used the Attack action.
    4. Attacking with the second weapon uses your bonus action.
    5. You DO add your proficiency modifier and ability modifier to the attack roll.
    6. You do NOT add your ability modifier to your damage roll.
    ◊ EXCEPTION: Ignore #6 if you take the fighting style Two-weapon Fighting

    Spoiler: Flowchart for Dual-Wielding
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    College of Swords Bards can also get the Two-Weapon fighting Style.

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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Disappointed to not see "Step 1; Don't".

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Disappointed to not see "Step 1; Don't".


    I tend to until level 4 or 5 unless Great Weapons or Shields are core to my character concept.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Disappointed to not see "Step 1; Don't".
    Unless Rogue or Paladin who get extra damage based on a hit.

    Two daggers are the best option for many rogues as you can twf with thrown weapons.

    Plenty of good to great Paladin builds that take advantage of TWF. Paladin's "Divine Smite" doesn't have the 1/turn or 1/round limitation that some features have. Sure you run out of spells, but the enemy runs out of life so it's a good trade off.

    The twf rules could use a fixing, but as is, they work fine for some builds.
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Thanks for putting this together. It should be helpful to folks not familiar with the details of dual wielding.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Since this works with daggers, can you do this with darts? Darts are technically lighter than daggers, but they are categorized as ranged weapons...

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderguy24 View Post
    Since this works with daggers, can you do this with darts? Darts are technically lighter than daggers, but they are categorized as ranged weapons...
    No. The OP is missing that dual wielding must be made with melee weapons.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpaligtr View Post
    Unless Rogue or Paladin who get extra damage based on a hit.

    Two daggers are the best option for many rogues as you can twf with thrown weapons.

    Plenty of good to great Paladin builds that take advantage of TWF. Paladin's "Divine Smite" doesn't have the 1/turn or 1/round limitation that some features have. Sure you run out of spells, but the enemy runs out of life so it's a good trade off.

    The twf rules could use a fixing, but as is, they work fine for some builds.
    Disagree with this. Rogues do better getting booming blade and advantage whenever possible. Similar chance to land the hit but more damage due to B.B. damage plus you can lock down the enemy.

    Paladins do better with great weapon mastery, and/or pam

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Disagree with this. Rogues do better getting booming blade and advantage whenever possible. Similar chance to land the hit but more damage due to B.B. damage plus you can lock down the enemy.

    Paladins do better with great weapon mastery, and/or pam
    More attacks means more chances to land sneak attack. If you miss with BB, you'll lose both that and the BB damage, if you miss with your first non-BB attack, you'll get another chance. Though rogues have other uses for their bonus action.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpaligtr View Post
    Plenty of good to great Paladin builds that take advantage of TWF. Paladin's "Divine Smite" doesn't have the 1/turn or 1/round limitation that some features have. Sure you run out of spells, but the enemy runs out of life so it's a good trade off.
    The thing is, dual-wielding requires both a feat and a fighting style that paladin don't get access to. You either have to multiclass or settle for suboptimal dual-wielding. To make dual-wielding even more unappealing, you can get Polearm Master instead. PAM gives you that bonus action attack (the whole reason to dual-wield) while also giving you a choice of using a two-handed polearm with reach with Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Master, or using a quarterstaff and shield with the Dueling fighting style. So, PAM basically allows you to combine all the benefits of dual-wield with either using a two-handed weapon or using a one-handed weapon and shield.

    Basically, when given the option between dual-wielding and PAM, the only reasons that dual-wielding would be a more optimal choice would be, "I'm a DEX build," or, "I don't have proficiency with polearms/shields." Better for rogues, but paladins would generally benefit more from PAM.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    The thing is, dual-wielding requires both a feat and a fighting style that paladin don't get access to. You either have to multiclass or settle for suboptimal dual-wielding. To make dual-wielding even more unappealing, you can get Polearm Master instead. PAM gives you that bonus action attack (the whole reason to dual-wield) while also giving you a choice of using a two-handed polearm with reach with Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Master, or using a quarterstaff and shield with the Dueling fighting style. So, PAM basically allows you to combine all the benefits of dual-wield with either using a two-handed weapon or using a one-handed weapon and shield.

    Basically, when given the option between dual-wielding and PAM, the only reasons that dual-wielding would be a more optimal choice would be, "I'm a DEX build," or, "I don't have proficiency with polearms/shields." Better for rogues, but paladins would generally benefit more from PAM.
    The fighting style adds a little bit of damage, that damage pales in comparison with what you get from sneak attack or smite.

    So no, you don't need the fighting style.

    Even the feat you don't need with Rogue or Paladin. It's helpful with the Paladin for getting +1 AC (they aren't as mobile) amd slightly more damage on the weapon die...

    However you can do just fine without the fear and the fighting style can be ignored completely.

    Again, a majority of your damage comes from extra damage like sneak attack or smite. Two weapon fighting is about giving you more oportunities to get that extra damage off.
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpaligtr View Post
    The fighting style adds a little bit of damage,
    The bonus action attack from PAM already adds your STR mod to damage. Dual-wielding requires a fighting style to do this.

    that damage pales in comparison with what you get from sneak attack or smite.

    So no, you don't need the fighting style.
    You don't need the fighting style with a rogue, because you're much more concerned about landing that Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack is infinite, Smite is not, so every bit of sustainable damage for a paladin helps.

    Even the feat you don't need with Rogue or Paladin. It's helpful with the Paladin for getting +1 AC (they aren't as mobile) amd slightly more damage on the weapon die...

    However you can do just fine without the fear and the fighting style can be ignored completely.
    The feat does more than +1 AC. It also lets you use any one-handed melee weapon for dual-wielding, and lets you draw/sheathe two weapons at once. You can argue how important this is, but it's a nice quality-of-life feature for dual wielders.

    Sure, you don't need either of them. And if you wanted a bonus action attack on a paladin without any feats, dual-wielding would be pretty much the only way to do so. But if you were considering getting the Dual Wielder feat on a paladin, you might as well get PAM instead.

    Again, a majority of your damage comes from extra damage like sneak attack or smite. Two weapon fighting is about giving you more oportunities to get that extra damage off.
    And again, if you're going featless, dual-wielding is the only way to go if you want that bonus action attack. The point I'm trying to make is that if you were going to get the Dual-Wielder feat (and possibly the fighting style), PAM does everything it does better, and gives you a choice of great weapon fighting or sword-n-board.

    I suppose I'll add an addendum to my previous post. The third reason you would opt for dual-wielding over PAM is, "I can't spare a feat."

    But the point I was originally making was that even a build that was optimized for two-weapon fighting would be inferior to one that was optimized for PAM, unless it met one of the previously mention criteria (DEX build or no polearm/shield prof.).

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    More attacks means more chances to land sneak attack. If you miss with BB, you'll lose both that and the BB damage, if you miss with your first non-BB attack, you'll get another chance. Though rogues have other uses for their bonus action.
    As you say, rogues have other uses for their bonus action. And that's why I said generate advantage. Rolling two attacks is the same mathematically as rolling twice for advantage (though of course you get more chances to hit with advantage on two attacks, yes).

    Personally, I'd rather roll an advantage attack with BB than two separate attacks, which also leave my bonus action free.
    Plus, it opens up War Magic OA Sneak Attacks to have BB.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    As you say, rogues have other uses for their bonus action. And that's why I said generate advantage. Rolling two attacks is the same mathematically as rolling twice for advantage (though of course you get more chances to hit with advantage on two attacks, yes).

    Personally, I'd rather roll an advantage attack with BB than two separate attacks, which also leave my bonus action free.
    Plus, it opens up War Magic OA Sneak Attacks to have BB.
    While there are several ways to generate advantage, using the Hide action is one of the main ones at the rogue's disposal. In which case you're still using your bonus action to roll twice, just you can't hit more than once now.

    That said, hitting with two attacks probably isn't as good as hitting once with Booming Blade, at least, after 11th and maybe 5th level.

    Of course, if you can generate advantage without using your bonus action, wouldn't two-weapon fighting be even better? You could roll three or four times to hit, depending on if you can get advantage with your bonus action attack, too. An AT using a Shadow Blade in dim light can do this, for example. Or a multiclassed rogue/warlock using Darkness/Devil's Sight.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    The bonus action attack from PAM already adds your STR mod to damage. Dual-wielding requires a fighting style to do this.


    You don't need the fighting style with a rogue, because you're much more concerned about landing that Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack is infinite, Smite is not, so every bit of sustainable damage for a paladin helps.


    The feat does more than +1 AC. It also lets you use any one-handed melee weapon for dual-wielding, and lets you draw/sheathe two weapons at once. You can argue how important this is, but it's a nice quality-of-life feature for dual wielders.

    Sure, you don't need either of them. And if you wanted a bonus action attack on a paladin without any feats, dual-wielding would be pretty much the only way to do so. But if you were considering getting the Dual Wielder feat on a paladin, you might as well get PAM instead.


    And again, if you're going featless, dual-wielding is the only way to go if you want that bonus action attack. The point I'm trying to make is that if you were going to get the Dual-Wielder feat (and possibly the fighting style), PAM does everything it does better, and gives you a choice of great weapon fighting or sword-n-board.

    I suppose I'll add an addendum to my previous post. The third reason you would opt for dual-wielding over PAM is, "I can't spare a feat."

    But the point I was originally making was that even a build that was optimized for two-weapon fighting would be inferior to one that was optimized for PAM, unless it met one of the previously mention criteria (DEX build or no polearm/shield prof.).
    You don't have to pick a feat to go twf with the Paladin. The feat is completely optional and you will still do damage. Also, you don't have to go dex paladin to dual wield.

    To use PAM, you must take a feat.

    But I never was saying TWF was better or worse than PAM. I said that TWF as a Rogue ir Paladin was a good to great choice on its own.

    You can keep trying to shift the goal posts and I almost fell for it... But two weapon fighting stands on its own merits.

    PAM stands on its own merits but TWF is still a great option for a str/dex paladin even without a fighting style because extra damage is still being applied.




    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    While there are several ways to generate advantage, using the Hide action is one of the main ones at the rogue's disposal. In which case you're still using your bonus action to roll twice, just you can't hit more than once now.

    That said, hitting with two attacks probably isn't as good as hitting once with Booming Blade, at least, after 11th and maybe 5th level.

    Of course, if you can generate advantage without using your bonus action, wouldn't two-weapon fighting be even better? You could roll three or four times to hit, depending on if you can get advantage with your bonus action attack, too. An AT using a Shadow Blade in dim light can do this, for example. Or a multiclassed rogue/warlock using Darkness/Devil's Sight.
    The easiest way to get off sneak attack is to have an ally next to the enemy (well, a creature that isn't friendly with the target). You don't have to have advantage for sneak attack.

    This is why TWF with daggers is optimal for the rogue. If you miss with the first attack, you get a second attack and you don't have to be within melee range.

    The point of the rogue twf is the option of attacking twice. At melee or range. If you hit the first time you should be targeting a creature you can sneak attack, if you miss, you can then attack again. If you hit, you still have all the options availible to you to run away or whatever.

    Miss with BB and you don't get another chance on this turn to deal sneak attack.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Hexblades or Padlocks make the best case for two weapon fighting in my opinion. With a dip somewhere (I like Sword Bard) for two weapon fighting style, you can pact one sword and hex warrior the other for +Cha to damage on both, then you get +Proficiency with both on a cursed target.

    Straight up PAM Vs. TWF on this with the feat at level 5 is 1d10+Cha+Prof + 1d10+Cha+Prof +1d4+Cha+Prof. Median dice damage of 12 with PAM, and 1d8+Cha+Prof + 1d8+Cha+Prof +1d8+Cha+Prof, median 12 dice damage with TWF.

    Unless you have GWM or Lifedrinker the two should put out the exact same damage with the exact same crit chance for the exact same cost of one feat. TWF needs a dip, PAM fights at -1 AC.

    So... best case scenario TWF gets to be equal if you want to spend a feat. If you don't want to spend a feat TWF is just better hands down with the Hexblade or any other crit fisher class. If the point is to look for crits to apply smites to it doesn't really matter if the raw damage on the offhand is bigger or not.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    The swashbuckler subclass is built astound the idea of dual wielding.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    I played recently a strength based ranger (up to level 12). Dual wield who could hit swords, spears, scimitars, hand axes, javelins and dagger because he the dual wielder feat.

    It wasn't bad, I often did not always get to BA action to strike because I may have used it for hail of thorns or moving hunter's mark.

    I also sometimes used my first melee attack to trip/shove and then hit with advantage with my main hand and then off hand with my bonus action.

    The good thing about the dual wielder feat is it allows you to use multiple weapon set ups.

    Now anybody can theoretically hold in one a halberd, throw a spear with the other, and then run in with a halberd... right.

    The biggest drawback of PAM is really the availability of magical polearms (aside from magical staffs) versus magical spears, swords, hammers, and axes.

    But the hate against TWF is silly, TWF did not design itself, and you can easily make acceptable table changes to accommodate player wishes.

    A ranger even with just daggers or hand axes using TWF can be quite versatile. You just have to decide is it more appropriate to attack with off-hand or use that BA for a spell casting.

    And for rogue, sometimes, you want to use that BA to swing again because you or the next guy coming round can drop this foe. Or perhaps the initiative order sucks, and your pals are last and you better use that BA for disengage even though you missed because you have 2 HP left.

    I look for options when I play, multiple uses for my reaction and bonus actions and attacks, just because the game can be so vast and changing and challenging at times

    TWF can be very fun, I personally think the dual wielder feat is best for strength based types, they get the most out of it.

    And hex/hunter's mark/divine favor from a dip or MI are nice to have, and ranger's can use lightning arrow/conjure/hail of thorns even with a hand axe... but you are not blending machine of death

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    And again, if you're going featless, dual-wielding is the only way to go if you want that bonus action attack. The point I'm trying to make is that if you were going to get the Dual-Wielder feat (and possibly the fighting style), PAM does everything it does better, and gives you a choice of great weapon fighting or sword-n-board.
    And that point is sadly extremely wrong, as has been explained countless times in other threads.
    PAM may be better for some builds, sure, but not all builds.
    PAM does not do anything about getting better when 5 or 10 feet reach won't cut it.
    PAM with shield also means, except for Paladin using only smite spells (or managing to engrave a focus on shield), Warcaster becomes mandatory just to be able to cast.
    PAM needs a category of weapons that is, sadly or not, slightly to significantly, depending on campaign, under-represented in magic weapons.

    TWF is a free-feat technic that allows you to use whatever combination of melee/ranged/Shove/Grapple set you need, at the price of "dealing a bit less more" damage than you'd like.
    Unless you pick the FS which makes all weapon attacks strictly equivalent.
    The only limitation of requiring light weapon is a big deal only at low levels.
    Later, having 1d6 instead of 1d8 or even 1d10 won't matter much unless you go for crit-fishing: yeah, on paper it will make a very impressive difference especially if you chain encounters. But rarely will it mean you could have dropped an enemy one round earlier.

    Two-weapon fighting style is just here for those who like enough the versatility (= use bonus action often enough) to feel a bit annoyed that on some turns they feel they deal a bit less damage than on some others (ex, turn with opening Shove then "Extra Attack" astride action and bonus action VS three weapon attacks).
    Dual-Wielder is just here for those who like it / need it so much that they really get use for extra versatility of choice. Or plain damage-optimizers maybe.

    Neither is required for two-weapon fighting to be fun and efficient. :)
    You have the impression you don't deal enough damage, when you actually still deal more damage than without it. ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    TWF can be very fun, I personally think the dual wielder feat is best for strength based types, they get the most out of it.
    Agreed on that, especially considering the existence of the Crossbow Expert feat which has been clarified as allowing the use of the same hand crossbow (after all, it *is* a one-handed weapon ^^) for all attacks, action and bonus action alike. And it pairs with Sharpshooter. And it also allows you to use a melee weapon altogether, even if it those create ammunition management problem. ^^
    So when you go DEX, that has natural access to finesse melee weapons but more importantly mid-range weapons (crossbows) and long-range weapons, unless you really need to make melee weapon attacks (= mostly, you're a Paladin) it's hard to justify Dual Wielder feat over CX usually. ^^
    However, it's obviously a good idea to use dual-wielding over hand crossbow until you can grab the feat whenever the shorter range is enough for your needs. :)

    Another argument supporting the idea is that one of the great interests of dual-wielding is pulling off a Shove/Grapple whenever you want, and those are always STR-based. Unless you pick Expertise one way or another (or have someone help you get a good chance of succeeding, such as a Hex/Bless/Bardic Inspiration), for a DEX build, it's usually too long a shot to be worth over just one more weapon attack.
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-08-21 at 06:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpaligtr View Post
    You don't have to pick a feat to go twf with the Paladin. The feat is completely optional and you will still do damage. Also, you don't have to go dex paladin to dual wield.

    To use PAM, you must take a feat.
    Yes, and I acknowledged this.

    But I never was saying TWF was better or worse than PAM. I said that TWF as a Rogue ir Paladin was a good to great choice on its own.

    You can keep trying to shift the goal posts and I almost fell for it... But two weapon fighting stands on its own merits.
    I think you misunderstood. I acknowledged that TWF was better in some situations than PAM. You're the one who brought up TWF and paladins, I was just pointing out that in many cases PAM was better for paladins than TWF. The primary reason to go TWF over PAM on a paladin are either because you're a DEX paladin, or because you simply can't spare a feat for PAM.

    The easiest way to get off sneak attack is to have an ally next to the enemy (well, a creature that isn't friendly with the target). You don't have to have advantage for sneak attack.
    The person I was responding to was specifically contrasting using TWF without advantage (presumably with an ally next to their target) against making one attack with advantage. What I was pointing out was that generating advantage would in most cases still use your bonus action, so you're actually better off with TWF where you have the possibility of hitting twice. A single attack with advantage using BB might be better, but that requires you to get the cantrip, and you might not always be able to generate advantage, and yes, it requires you to be in melee. Plus, in the cases where you can generate advantage without using your bonus action, TWF is still better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    And that point is sadly extremely wrong, as has been explained countless times in other threads.
    We'll see.
    PAM may be better for some builds, sure, but not all builds.
    DEX builds, characters without polearm or shield proficiency, and those who don't have a feat to spare. I covered all that.
    Rogues are also a special case, since they can't make Sneak Attacks with any of the weapons that qualify for Polearm Mastery.

    PAM does not do anything about getting better when 5 or 10 feet reach won't cut it.
    I assume you're talking about range here. This is a fair point, I usually think of TWF as melee, but thrown weapons can give you some extra range.
    As far as I know, though, paladins can't smite with thrown weapons. (I'd be in favor of houseruling that they could.)

    PAM with shield also means, except for Paladin using only smite spells (or managing to engrave a focus on shield), Warcaster becomes mandatory just to be able to cast.
    This is true for any sword-n-board paladin build. This isn't an issue specific to PAM.
    Also, paladins can start with a holy symbol engraved on their shield at 1st level. The real problem is that you can't cast spells with somatic but not material components. Warcaster, as far as I'm aware, is the only way around this limitation.

    PAM needs a category of weapons that is, sadly or not, slightly to significantly, depending on campaign, under-represented in magic weapons.
    There are some decent staves in the DMG, and any weapon can be a +3 weapon (which, by the way, won't require attunement, letting you attune an additional magic item). If this is really a problem, talk to your DM about homebrewing a magic polearm for your character. Heck, take a magic weapon that already exists and apply it to a polearm instead.

    I'm not knocking TWF, it's a nice, featless way to get a bonus action attack. The only point I was wanting to make was that, for paladins specifically, PAM was a better option, if you could spare the feat for it. If you can't, TWF is great. And for rogues, TWF is great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    I'm not knocking TWF, it's a nice, featless way to get a bonus action attack. The only point I was wanting to make was that, for paladins specifically, PAM was a better option, if you could spare the feat for it. If you can't, TWF is great. And for rogues, TWF is great.
    This I perfectly understand, but still don't *really* agree, for Paladins at least.
    Sure, PAM brings nice value.
    But in practice...

    1/ Getting a bonus action weapon attack is important mainly when...
    a) You already have advantage, or otherwise are not concerned with to-hit.
    b) Or want to apply some kind of rider/nova damage and want as many chances to hit as possible.
    First case covers attacks against low-AC or low-threat enemies, which you want to kill as fast as possible.
    Second covers the case where you have a smite spell (which means you already used a bonus action previous turn) or divine smite (which means you still have a slot for it, and no better use for it).

    2/ PAM can be used with a shield (although some DM frown upon this though, I don't care personally) so it's effectively a +2 compared to plain two-weapon fighting, or +1 compared to Dual Wielder.

    So...
    PAM gets you a permanent bonus action attack for 1d4+STR.
    Compared to two-weapon fighting (TWF), 1d6.
    Compared to optimal two-weapon fighting (OTWF), 1d8+STR (style + Dual Wielder).
    You use it with a polearm, 1d10, with 10 feet reach.
    And stack a shield in other hand.
    Perfect.

    But now, what happens when you fight creatures with 10 feet reach or more?
    PAM: you'll have to risk an OA at the very least, and possibly counterattack (although you can also land an OA when he comes in, which is a significant boon ;)).
    TWF: just advance enough to throw both light weapons you had in hand (20 feet), draw one to have a ready off-turn.
    OTWF: either the previous, or alternative:whip/lance in one hand, throwable weapon in another: make weapon attack, Shove, make thrown weapon attack.

    What happens when you fight creatures that, although only 5 feet reach, can land hits heavy enough to put you down?
    PAM: you can attack without risking OA, but you probably won't have enough distance to pull back outside of reach+move, so you'll have to count on hitting with your "entering reach OA" to deal enough damage to fend it off.
    TWF: light weapons: attack, Shove (push), throw weapon (strictly equal or worse than PAM depending on your class) OR throw both weapons and draw one (so you can use all speed to pull back beyond move+reach).


    What happens when you expected to finish off a creature by landing all attacks but you missed the first one?

    You now have only one weapon attack from Attack left.
    If you want to Shove it prone for next melee ally to come, then only damage will be the bonus action attack.
    PAM here is only a few points better than pure dual-wielding, similar level to Dual Wielder, strictly inferior to FS and FS+feat.


    What happens when you need to cast a spell without Warcaster, that is not a "shield focus compatible" spell (thinking about the many Paladin multiclasses around here)?
    PAM: you're f*****.
    TWF: just throw or sheathe one of your weapons.

    -----
    Of course when your main goal is to nova smite, you have no other choice than making melee weapon attacks.
    But this is actually not the thing you usually do. Simply because the Paladin has few slots, and has big competition between smite and spells on top of that.
    So when you are not out for a smite, Paladin is basically a capped Fighter.
    Of course too, Paladins tend to want and aggro heat, so they don't care that much about preserving themselves, so having an option to stay at large is not as important for them as for others. Usually at least. It's sometimes necessary though. ^^

    Then comes the fact that the smite spells are great, and use bonus action.
    Or the fact that several Oaths have bonus action triggering features (especially Vengeance).
    Then comes the fact that Paladins are craved for ASI and feats, as they want both attack stat (to-hit) and Charisma (everything else) and may want good concentration (build-dependent that one though, no argue on that ;)).

    For all these reasons, PAM is *worse* imo than Dual Wielder in a few specific cases, and overall a *bad* feat for Paladins, except very specific use-cases (like a multiclass using slots mainly on pre-fight buff then smite, trying to aggro and get OA on reach entering, or a GWM build, or a campaign when you know you'll usually get one encounter at most per long rest for whatever reason, so you can blow nova hard).
    In all other cases, it's not PAM, nor Dual Wielder I'd pick as a Paladin for that matter, it's Spell Sniper (at least you don't suck anymore when fight is done at ranged) or Resilient (for all those great spells) or, most probably at least in the frame of current discussion, Sentinel...
    Which doesn't care about your weapon setup or playstyle (mostly) and is always very useful, and possibly enhances chances to OA more often than PAM, since it triggers depending on how you move towards enemies (once enemies realize you hit hard, they tend to avoid you in the first place unless they can sustain your hits^^).
    Obviously paired with basic dual-wielder for whenever I don't have better use for bonus action or when I want to crank a Shove/Grapple in my turn without losing too much, or another Paladin-specific use-case said above. :)

    In other words, to sump up, unless you have a specific playstyle in mind that completely ditches all Paladin's bonus action features, investing in a feat that brings bonus action attack is not worth it, whatever the feat.

    Now, if you came and invited me to a campaign game with multiclass, and I decided to make a perma-smiter build, i'd be indeed tempted by PAM as a priority. ;)
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-08-21 at 07:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Disappointed to not see "Step 1; Don't".
    I said it best. My god you are all so boring to read.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Disappointed to not see "Step 1; Don't".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    I said it best. My god you are all so boring to read.
    I feel tempted to complain. I also felt tempted to use strong language, but I'll refrain from it.

    Fine, I get it. You don't like two-weapon fighting rules in 5th edition. Others (myself included) don't have to agree with you.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2018-08-22 at 12:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I feel tempted to complain. I also felt tempted to use strong language, but I'll refrain from it.
    Have a medal.

    Fine, I get it. You don't like two-weapon fighting rules in 5th edition. Others (myself included) don't have to agree with you. Now, please, go dig yourself a hole, and take your opinions with you.
    I'm not the one silencing others for having a difference of opinion, though. Feel free to use the spade on your own hole afterwards, thanks.

    Please also feel fee to get involved with the thread itself.
    Last edited by Kadesh; 2018-08-22 at 12:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    I said it best. My god you are all so boring to read.
    Your second contribution to the thread was not nearly as funny as the first.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    Your second contribution to the thread was not nearly as funny as the first.
    I'll survive. Have fun with whatever it is you all want out of it :)

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    I'll survive. Have fun with whatever it is you all want out of it :)
    I'll survive too. Have fun with quoting your old posts. :)

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarohk View Post
    4. Attacking with the second weapon uses your bonus action.
    If you have an experienced and educated DM, many of them disregard this stupid rule and make TWF like GWF, by keeping it all in the Attack Action. Now these two choices are just that, choices as they do similar damage, it becomes more of a style choice with a different feat tree.

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    Default Re: Dual Wielding Made Easy - List & Flowchart

    Quote Originally Posted by Grondsmash View Post
    If you have an experienced and educated DM, many of them disregard this stupid rule and make TWF like GWF, by keeping it all in the Attack Action. Now these two choices are just that, choices as they do similar damage, it becomes more of a style choice with a different feat tree.
    Looks like you're new here, try to avoid thread necromancy* mate

    *Time limit on when you can reply to a thread since last post.

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