Dnd becoming hyper saturated and "lacking identity" alongside the rest o nerd culture

[Poldron56]

This is the first time I write on this forum. I specifically chose Giant in the Playground and not other online platforms because most folks around are veterans and able to present a well established argument on why things are the way it is presently. The topics I would like to discuss are the changes that are occurring in terms of dnd and nerdculture itself. I don´t mean to sound agressive and hateful towards people o started the hobbie recently, hell I´ve been only playing since 2014, however along these last years I´ve been distancing from present day Dnd and being more related to older editions (3.5, 3rd and 2nd, more precisely ). Again I don´t mean to be disrespectful, but I feel that Dnd is lacking a charm that older editions naturally have. This is mostly due to the change the ocorred to nerd and geek culture that I felt made D&d, video games, comic books and other media exciting. I feel that they oversimplified the game to appeal a new wave of people that a few years back would probably disregard D&D. This doesn´t mean it´s something bad, by the contrary, the game is getting the recognition it deserves, however, the problem comes from the fact that attracted a group of people that consider it cool because nowadays "it´s cool to like and participate in RPGs". I might sound cynical given the fact I´ve only started it recently, but all my life I was judged for being a geek due to liking old video games, comic books and strategy board games. Funny enough, I liked, especially due to a fact I dealt with a minority of people that to this day we still hangout and consider them my best friends. I didn´t mind wasting afternoons playing Talisman or Heroclix, it was fun and I was spending time with people that really did get me. Nowadays forget it. Everyone belongs to the nerd and geek crew because it´s cool. Just as cool as wearing a t-shirt from a band you don´t even listen too. The same can be said about the Super Hero genre, Star Wars and alike. I started taking this matter very seriously when I was watching a video about Joe Manganiello talking about his experiences with D&D. He stated that he stopped playing D&D because during that time it was considered nerdy by society and he didn´t want to be considered that type of person, only to later resume a few years later when it was recently considered cool. I didn´t really comprehend why one would stop playing for that specific reason, but to each his own. The question I wanted to ask you guys was simply your opinion about this matter, what do you think? What´s your opinion about the state of D&D and the nerd and geek culture of present times? Do you think I´m being overly critical and hypocritical. Thank you for reading my post and have stupendous day ;)

[Eldest]

I sincerely suggest you add in some paragraph breaks.

So, to sum it up, it's popular and now that sucks? I heartily disagree. I think it's great that the hobby is reaching so many people and letting more than your stereotypical "nerds" play. More chances to meet and play with new people, see new ideas, and have an enjoyable experience, especially if some aspects of "normal" nerd culture aren't welcoming to you.

[Razade]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Some of the most complex, difficult video games have come out in this era. Some of the best new systems, where D&D is no longer the only game in town, have proliferated with things like Kickstarter and internet forums.

D&D isn't nerd culture. It's part of it and nerd culture never had an identity.

[Honest Tiefling]

So, to sum it up, it's popular and now that sucks? I heartily disagree. I think it's great that the hobby is reaching so many people and letting more than your stereotypical "nerds" play. More chances to meet and play with new people, see new ideas, and have an enjoyable experience, especially if some aspects of "normal" nerd culture aren't welcoming to you.

And a bigger market can often mean more niche products, and their availability. I can find players more easily, and have better resources such as blogs and articles to help run a game. Sure, DnD lost a lot of the complexity that I think drew some people to it, but why not try out GURPS or another system?

That, and no one I have ever seen has ever identified as a 'nerd' because they liked some aspects. Has anyone actually encountered a fake nerd? I only know of people who 1) legitimately have earned the title or 2) normal people who occasionally play videogames or watch a super hero movie, but don't call themselves nerdy.

[Kyrell1978]

I certainly believe that they have simplified D&D specifically to appeal to a new audience. I'm also glad that you found an edition that you relate to more than the current edition. I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for 30 years or so, and have played every edition of the game from Basic up to 4th and Pathfinder. I personally have found the 3.x game to be my own personal favorite, with 2nd ed AD&D a close second so I do understand not relating to the current edition. I have seen in my life the label of geek and nerd go from a tremendous stigma to something that, while not exactly positive, has its own type of value in the social hierarchy. With all of that being said, I don't think that any of this is necessarily a bad thing. As others have pointed out, with a larger market come more opportunities for games to succeed. With less stigma come more players and thus more chances to play.

[Poldron56]

I sincerely suggest you add in some paragraph breaks.

So, to sum it up, it's popular and now that sucks? I heartily disagree. I think it's great that the hobby is reaching so many people and letting more than your stereotypical "nerds" play. More chances to meet and play with new people, see new ideas, and have an enjoyable experience, especially if some aspects of "normal" nerd culture aren't welcoming to you.

First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, it´s not so much sucking because of it´s popularity, it´s more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because it´s cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldn´t be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but that´s more personal opinion.

[Kyrell1978]

First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, it´s not so much sucking because of it´s popularity, it´s more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because it´s cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldn´t be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but that´s more personal opinion.

You're probably right about it not being as popular twenty years ago, but why does that matter? Play the version of the game that you want to play, with the people with which you want to play it. Why are you concerned with all of these "other people?" They can only effect you if you let them.

[Poldron56]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Some of the most complex, difficult video games have come out in this era. Some of the best new systems, where D&D is no longer the only game in town, have proliferated with things like Kickstarter and internet forums.

D&D isn't nerd culture. It's part of it and nerd culture never had an identity.

First of all, thank you for your opinion.
In terms of the complexity of video games of this era, I am extremely sorry but I have to admit that aren´t many video games nowadays that can challenge the design complexity of older video games. For example, the ones that I truly feel that really made a breakthrough were CD Projekt Red games, Bioshock games and some Bioware games.
I do concur that there are many new unique systems that offered many new ways to experience Roleplaying. Personally, I´m quite glad due to internet, it gave the opportunity to many unknown developers to expose and share their projects and ideas.
Yes, I know D&D doesn´t consist entirely nerd culture, but it is a quintessential part of it, and it has been since the infancy of "nerdom". Although, again I´m very sorry, I do believe what you can identify what can be considered nerd or not.

[Eldest]

First of all, thank you for the advice.
Second, it´s not so much sucking because of it´s popularity, it´s more on the line that I think that some people only appreciate it because it´s cool now. If the same issue would be presented 20 years ago, those same people wouldn´t be interested in the game.
There is also the problem of the simplification of the system, but that´s more personal opinion.

So what if people are only exposed to the game if it's popular? Why does that matter? I sincerely don't think that "it's cool, so I have to do it" happens that often outside of high school or stories. Preformative nerdery is a toxic idea to get into, that's where the idea of fake geek girls comes from.

[Honest Tiefling]

How would you even FIND people interested in it if it didn't become popular? I got into RPGs around the year 2000, when we had two flavors: D&D and Whitewolf. The groups I knew just didn't know about the others (or had people throwing things because of GURPS which were never run). And guess what? I got introduced to them by chance, as I met people interested into them. So what if people hear about them in other ways and can actively seek them out? Does it matter how they heard of it as long as they are having fun without ruining the fun of others? Does it change how they approach the game in any meaningful way? Is how you get into a hobby more important than what you do with it?

Also, I think RPGs getting more mainstream has increased hygiene standards amongst the nerd crowd, which I am supremely thankful for.

[Poldron56]

You're probably right about it not being as popular twenty years ago, but why does that matter? Play the version of the game that you want to play, with the people with which you want to play it. Why are you concerned with all of these "other people?" They can only effect you if you let them.

Thank you for the reply.
You´re right. As I stated before I didn´t want to offend anyone. If I was overly critical, I´m extremely sorry. I just wanted to hear your opinions just to make a final and personal judgement about the subject. And as I´m responding this to you, it is also my intention to redirect to all others who replied to this post. All I have to say is thank you for expressing your opinion and being honest :)
It was what it was. Now I only have to be glad that it is getting the recognition that it deserves and that it is reaching the heart of many young, old and passionate people about the genre.

[Poldron56]

How would you even FIND people interested in it if it didn't become popular? I got into RPGs around the year 2000, when we had two flavors: D&D and Whitewolf. The groups I knew just didn't know about the others (or had people throwing things because of GURPS which were never run). And guess what? I got introduced to them by chance, as I met people interested into them. So what if people hear about them in other ways and can actively seek them out? Does it matter how they heard of it as long as they are having fun without ruining the fun of others? Does it change how they approach the game in any meaningful way? Is how you get into a hobby more important than what you do with it?

Also, I think RPGs getting more mainstream has increased hygiene standards amongst the nerd crowd, which I am supremely thankful for.

Thank for your reply.
Maybe I´m just giving too much thought on the matter, that it´s leading me to become so overly critical and pessimist. You´re right, in the end, what matters is having fun and having a blast with your friends.
I hope we can speak more in the near future. I would love to hear more about your personal experiences and opinions.

[Honest Tiefling]

I hope we can speak more in the near future. I would love to hear more about your personal experiences and opinions.

Nah. One of the people introduced via a friend to roleplaying kept throwing things at the DM and 'jokingly' poking him with a blunted xacto-knife. I feel like someone else's experiences might be better.

And remember, it might be easy to get discouraged, but you won't get good players if you aren't accepting of newcomers. One might turn out to be a great roleplayer or more inventive with crazy schemes because they don't think like other roleplayers. Others might have a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw upon for better worlds. If they don't really 'get' you, maybe you should address that problem (Are you not meshing with the group, are they jerks, are there different expectations at play, etc.) instead.

[Poldron56]

So what if people are only exposed to the game if it's popular? Why does that matter? I sincerely don't think that "it's cool, so I have to do it" happens that often outside of high school or stories. Preformative nerdery is a toxic idea to get into, that's where the idea of fake geek girls comes from.

Thank you for replying again.
As I stated before, I´ve been overly judgemental about the subject. I had no intent to offend anyone with the ideas I presented. I also don´t concur that the preconceived idea of the fake geek girl is somewhat dominant in our society due to some aspects of preformative nerdery. The way I conceive what is nerdy isn´t entirely related to the traditional view. I wasn´t supporting any aspect of a group of individuals with lack of whatsoever social skills and hygiene, but just group a group of individuals that present a certain set of ideologies that´s all.
I hope we can speak more in the near future, I would like to know more about your experiences as a RPGer.

[Honest Tiefling]

...but just group a group of individuals that present a certain set of ideologies that´s all.

I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive, as I am genuinely interested in your contributions to the forums. What sort of ideologies do you think represents your definition of nerds?

[Poldron56]

Nah. One of the people introduced via a friend to roleplaying kept throwing things at the DM and 'jokingly' poking him with a blunted xacto-knife. I feel like someone else's experiences might be better.

And remember, it might be easy to get discouraged, but you won't get good players if you aren't accepting of newcomers. One might turn out to be a great roleplayer or more inventive with crazy schemes because they don't think like other roleplayers. Others might have a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw upon for better worlds. If they don't really 'get' you, maybe you should address that problem (Are you not meshing with the group, are they jerks, are there different expectations at play, etc.) instead.

I must thank you for the advice. I´ll try to be less judgemental and more accepting about the matter so that I can improve not just as DM or Roleplayer, but also as a person.
I´m sorry to hear about that. I hope you have better experiences in the near future.
Farewell and have a great day.

P.S: If you ever wish to to talk or change opinions feel free to PM

[Poldron56]

I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive, as I am genuinely interested in your contributions to the forums. What sort of ideologies do you think represents your definition of nerds?

It´s not at all aggressive.
In my opinion, in a very rudimentary definition, a nerd can be qualified as an individual who presents a great passion towards a subject that is extremely related to logical side, such as mechanics, biology, chemistry, physics, literature, etc.

[Comrade]

It´s not at all aggressive.
In my opinion, in a very rudimentary definition, a nerd can be qualified as an individual who presents a great passion towards a subject that is extremely related to logical side, such as mechanics, biology, chemistry, physics, literature, etc.

I'm not sure how literature is 'extremely related to the logical side', particularly compared to all the other STEM fields you listed, but that's a pretty expansive definition of 'nerd'. I would have thought there was a higher bar to clear than just being passionate about pretty much any art or science.

[2D8HP]

.....What´s your opinion about the state of D&D and the nerd and geek culture of present times? Do you think I´m being overly critical and hypocritical. Thank you for reading my post and have stupendous day ;)

It's a Golden Age now!

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

I started as a DM using the 48 pages of the "bluebook" in 1978, and as a player using oD&D, the TSR supplements, Arduin, All the World's Monsters, and the AD&D Monster Manual.

Those games of 1979 to '81'ish were the most fun games I've played, but they didn't last, we switched to other RPG's and war games, and in 1985 (upon the release of Unearthed Arcana) I stopped buying new D&D rules for many years, but I still bought many other games, until I left the hobby in '91 (the genres available at the tables I could find, Superheroes,"Dark Future's",and "World's of Darkness" weren't to my taste).

I bought 3e, but found the changes and complexity off putting (yes I know AD&D was also complex, but I already knew it and learned it when I had more patience and mental agility).

5e D&D has often been great fun to play, but seems too complex for me to DM without a lot of editing.

It is very cool that the Adventurer's League and the Pathfinder's Society make it much easier to find games now than any other time in my memory, there's lots of new players and they seem far more polite than my age-mates were in the 1980's.

Superheroes have long been popular (I can remember the many hours long line to see the Michael Keaton Batman), but now adults can speak freeely of being fans without being mocked.

On video games. ..
....um I played Asteroids and Missle Command back to the '80's, but I really don't know much about them now, my son was a big fan of some games based on Naruto a few years ago and asked me to play it with him, but they give me a headache so I'm no judge.

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

In other aspects of modernity, there's far less audible gunfire than in the 1980's and less murders, and beautiful young people zip to and fro on bicycles while wearing tights!

[Kyrell1978]

It's a Golden Age now!

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

I started as a DM using the 48 pages of the "bluebook" in 1978, and as a player using oD&D, the TSR supplements, Arduin, All the World's Monsters, and the AD&D Monster Manual.

Those games of 1979 to '81'ish were the most fun games I've played, but they didn't last, we switched to other RPG's and war games, and in 1985 (upon the release of Unearthed Arcana) I stopped buying new D&D rules for many years, but I still bought many other games, until I left the hobby in '91 (the genres available at the tables I could find, Superheroes,"Dark Future's",and "World's of Darkness" weren't to my taste).

I bought 3e, but found the changes and complexity off putting (yes I know AD&D was also complex, but I already knew it and learned it when I had more patience and mental agility).

5e D&D has often been great fun to play, but seems too complex for me to DM without a lot of editing.

It is very cool that the Adventurer's League and the Pathfinder's Society make it much easier to find games now than any other time in my memory, there's lots of new players and they seem far more polite than my age-mates were in the 1980's.

Superheroes have long been popular (I can remember the many hours long line to see the Michael Keaton Batman), but now adults can speak freeely of being fans without being mocked.

On video games. ..
....um I played Asteroids and Missle Command back to the '80's, but I really don't know much about them now, my son was a big fan of some games based on Naruto a few years ago and asked me to play it with him, but they give me a headache so I'm no judge.

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

In other aspects of modernity, there's far less audible gunfire than in the 1980's and less murders, and beautiful young people zip to and fro on bicycles while wearing tights!

Enjoy the golden age while it lasts. We'll all be regulated back into the basement soon enough.

[Poldron56]

It's a Golden Age now!

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

I started as a DM using the 48 pages of the "bluebook" in 1978, and as a player using oD&D, the TSR supplements, Arduin, All the World's Monsters, and the AD&D Monster Manual.

Those games of 1979 to '81'ish were the most fun games I've played, but they didn't last, we switched to other RPG's and war games, and in 1985 (upon the release of Unearthed Arcana) I stopped buying new D&D rules for many years, but I still bought many other games, until I left the hobby in '91 (the genres available at the tables I could find, Superheroes,"Dark Future's",and "World's of Darkness" weren't to my taste).

I bought 3e, but found the changes and complexity off putting (yes I know AD&D was also complex, but I already knew it and learned it when I had more patience and mental agility).

5e D&D has often been great fun to play, but seems too complex for me to DM without a lot of editing.

It is very cool that the Adventurer's League and the Pathfinder's Society make it much easier to find games now than any other time in my memory, there's lots of new players and they seem far more polite than my age-mates were in the 1980's.

Superheroes have long been popular (I can remember the many hours long line to see the Michael Keaton Batman), but now adults can speak freeely of being fans without being mocked.

On video games. ..
....um I played Asteroids and Missle Command back to the '80's, but I really don't know much about them now, my son was a big fan of some games based on Naruto a few years ago and asked me to play it with him, but they give me a headache so I'm no judge.

Unfortunately the Other Change of Hobbit Fantasy & Science Fiction bookstore closed, which is saddening, but there's still Dark Carnival in Berkeley and Borderlands in San Francisco.

In other aspects of modernity, there's far less audible gunfire than in the 1980's and less murders, and beautiful young people zip to and fro on bicycles while wearing tights!

Thanks for your reply, Sir!
I dearly appreciate your positive view on our modern society overall compared to 3 decades ago.
I hope that your still paixonate for the hobby and that it has a positive effect on your life.
I would wish to know more about your experiences, so if you´re free PM me if you like.
Salutations.

P.S: Is your son also integrated into the hobby too?

[Kyrell1978]

P.S: Is your son also integrated into the hobby too?

Well, I can't speak for 2D8HP, but I know that all six of my kids play from time to time, and about four of them love it.

[Honest Tiefling]

Well...
....except that there's no Star Trek or Buffy like shows, or even Doctor Who on broadcast television, but since I seem to be one of the few srill living who only gets TV through an antenna, that's probably not an issue for most

Consider a streaming service. It's not a golden age until you can rewatch your favorite shows before actually getting out of bed for the day and forsaking any natural light.

[Kyrell1978]

Consider a streaming service. It's not a golden age until you can rewatch your favorite shows before actually getting out of bed for the day and forsaking any natural light.

Yeah, this. Cheaper than cable or satellite and more stuff than you could watch in a life time.

[Morty]

New people coming into a hobby is the best thing that can happen to it. Conversely, there's fewer worse things that can happen to it than becoming insular, pushing away newcomers and becoming niche. New people bring with them new ideas and expectations. Most of them will, sadly, keep playing D&D 5E and never stray from it, but other systems are more easily accessible than ever and some of them will move on to them. And because there's more people, there's more incentive to keep coming up with new and better games. So, yeah, the idea that D&D, or tabletop games in general, are becoming "too casual" is silly and baseless.

[EdgeOfTheAbyss]

Yea I think I understand where your coming from. I've felt the same problem with Pathfinder 2ed, its a simplified version of the game it has none of the mechanical intensity that it used to.

[2D8HP]

Thanks for your reply, Sir!
I dearly appreciate your positive view on our modern society overall compared to 3 decades ago.
I hope that your still passionate for the hobby and that it has a positive effect on your life.
I would wish to know more about your experiences, so if you´re free PM me if you like.
Salutations.

My experiences?

What, like how bearded college aged players of Magic-Users earned my undying and continuing wrath at DunDraCon back in 1980 when I was 12 years old?

Um... just do a Username "2D8HP" search in Ascending order, I'm sure I've posted most if it these past few years, but sure I'll PM you something, probably tomorrow.

P.S: Is your son also integrated into the hobby too?

He read "Ready Player One" and asked about D&D in 2015, and I got back into it and started buying new stuff again, but alas my son decided that he liked "Magic the Gathering" better.

At least he said he enjoyed reading some of the old books I gave him.

[Devils_Advocate]

Perhaps there has been a certain "simplifying" "mainstreaming", even "dumbing down", of "nerdy" things, but that doesn't mean that there are, in absolute terms, fewer really nerdy nerd things, or fewer really nerdy nerds. The nerdiest material and the nerdiest nerds may be hard to find among the background of the more mainstream and less nerdy, but I honestly think that's less of a problem than the previous problem of locating pockets of nerdium in a background of non-nerd stuff. On the contrary, I think that the internet and social networking have made it easier to find e.g. old-school roleplaying groups. Those groups being outnumbered by other roleplaying groups doesn't make them any less common among the population at large.

I have to wonder whether you just lack much exposure to non-mainstream stuff. So far as video games are concerned, for example... are you aware of, say, Dwarf Fortress? (Still in alpha; dwarves do not yet possess full self-awareness.) And as for tabletop RPGs, the current edition of Exalted seems to be pretty widely regarded as going in the opposite direction from "simplified" and "streamlined" (but doing unconventional things with its complexity; it's very different in many ways from AD&D and its knockoffs).

Perhaps the problem is that you yourself are, by the standards of the nerdiest of old-school nerds, a "filthy casual noob", and you need dig deeper in order to learn how to nerd harder. Who knows? Maybe you'll find that all the nerdiness that you could ever want was inside you, all along.

[2D8HP]

...Maybe you'll find that all the nerdiness that you could ever want was inside you, all along.

Someomr please "Sig" that!

[Tvtyrant]

I think there is a legitimate complaint to be made about appropriation. Lots of nerd stuff was the perview of the socially maladjusted, and like other forms of appropriation people have adopted the cool thing but not the people who identified with them.

Society is no more tolerant of the long nailed, unshowered individuals who I played MTG and D&D with as a teen. It just likes their stuff.

OTOH, complaining about appropriation is pointless. Society moves on quickly enough. Look at the rise and fall of any genre of music, the popularity of this too shall pass.