OOTS #1139 - The Discussion Thread

[Nith]

On the topic of why it matters that Hel gets all currently living dwarves if there are millions of previous worlds. Maybe the "soul power" of dead souls diminish over time. This would make the sudden influx of dead dwarven souls constitute a large portion of total "soul power" even though they are only a small part of all souls ever (not killed by the Snarl). Hel could use that to elevate herself to the top position of the Northern pantheon and thereafter use her new powers over the pantheon (whatever they are) to maintain that position.

[Fyraltari]

Are those gravestones kinda similar to booty plugs or is my mind somewhat polluted?

I thought they looked like markers on a map, and that it pointed to "where" in space the first world was. Draw your own conclusions.

If Redcloak ever learns of this he is going to be pissed.

His whole plan is for the Dark One to force concessions for the goblin people. Using it as a threat only.

If only he, and the Dark One, knew about all the worlds created before. None of the goblin sacrifices are necessary.

How so? The plan is to threaten to release the Snarl on the gods' own planes. We have no indication that has ever happened.

[Crisis21]

Ho...ly... *bleep*...

[Derian]

Ayup.


Theory
This storyline suggests that the current world might be exceptional. Possibly this world has lasted the longest, or else the existence of goblinoids, etc may have caused the overall success rate of adventuring to skyrocket. If no other world ever had epic casters aware of the rifts, the gates anchoring the rifts may be a new thing, and they want to see where it leads. Arcane magic may be able to do what the gods cannot, simply because the Snarl is a god-birthed abomination.

:

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Which is the reason why the gods created the goblins! So that enough casters could level up high enough to be able to contain the Snarl in the rifts!

[RMS Oceanic]

On the topic of why it matters that Hel gets all currently living dwarves if there are millions of previous worlds. Maybe the "soul power" of dead souls diminish over time. This would make the sudden influx of dead dwarven souls constitute a large portion of total "soul power" even though they are only a small part of all souls ever (not killed by the Snarl). Hel could use that to elevate herself to the top position of the Northern pantheon and thereafter use her new powers over the pantheon (whatever they are) to maintain that position.

The snarl destroys the souls of those it slays, so the gods don't benefit.

Also:

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[Flying Turtle]

well I‘m lost for worlds

Nice pun and even better use of strike through.

[EmperorSarda]

I thought they looked like markers on a map, and that it pointed to "where" in space the first world was. Draw your own conclusions.

How so? The plan is to threaten to release the Snarl on the gods' own planes. We have no indication that has ever happened.

Because now that the Dark One is a god, when this world is destroyed and a new one created he is going to be involved in the creation process. No gate ritual needed to get the gods on board to improve goblin people when that will be hammered out at the next planet's iteration.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh my dear gods.

The Snarl always gets out. It's inevitable. The gods have done this so many times before even Odin has probably lost count. One assumes that sometimes the Snarl eats all the souls, and sometimes it doesn't, but ...

Wow.

On the one hand, this means that when Loki says there will be time between when the last Gate falls and the Snarl breaks free, he speaks from experience. We now need explanation, though, as to why Hel is not head of the Northern Pantheon. Did the bet not exist before this? Or did prior worlds ends with the destruction of all dwarven souls so she didn't gain the power?

[LibraryOgre]

Burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp.

[LasVegasLawyer]

I feel as if this belongs here:

"When I first came here, this was all Snarl. Everyone said I was daft to build a world on a Snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show them. It was eaten by the Snarl. So I built a second one. And that one was eaten by the Snarl. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, and then got eaten by the Snarl. But the 500th one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to save, Durkon, the strongest world in all of the planes."

[Nith]

The snarl destroys the souls of those it slays, so the gods don't benefit.

Also:

Spoiler

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Yes, that's why I wrote "(not killed by the Snarl)". Assuming there has been a large number of worlds that have reached close to this world's age, most people born will have died in a different way before the Snarl destroyed their respective worlds.

Edit: I could not see whatever was in your spoiler tag.

[CoffeeIncluded]

This puts into perspective how small some of the conflicts in this comic are.

Hel wanting to create a world where she rules all the dwarves? Will last maybe a few centuries, of the billions of years of existance she has.

Redcloak wanting to create a world where goblins can live free? Who cares, they might as well let this world get destroyed and hope the Dark One's negotiating skills are good when they make the next one. And all the ones after it.

Xykon wanting to rule the world? Dude, three panteons of gods have tried and failed to keep a planet from being destroyed by the Snarl thousands of times, what makes you think you can control the beast itself?

The Order of the Scribble protecting the rifts? Useless. Nobody can protect the rifts. Your petty disagreements are nothing compared to the history of existance.

But here and now, they are alive.

[AutomatedTeller]

I did not see that coming.

Whenever I see a comic like this, Roy's words "what if what we needed was Durkon?" pop into my head...

Well, there are no comics like this, but you know what I mean.

[Sky_Schemer]

It's turtles monuments all the way down.

[JoseB]

Oh my sflarging gods..........

This... This is overwhelming.

Good grief.......

[hroþila]

Not everybody's souls. Only the latest generation's. Horace's, Eugene's, Sarah's, Eric's and even Nale's is safe from the Snarl and the first three lived long lives.

You can potentially be unmade or never exist in the first place.

I'd take the first, especially since (judging from this most recent world compared to the 2nd) we've got an actual bit of progress each time, and several of the souls from each world make it to the planar domains.

Yeah, good points.

[Delta]

I... did not see that one coming. Wow.

Are those gravestones kinda similar to booty plugs or is my mind somewhat polluted?

Well I guess my mind is kind of dirty, but rest assured you weren't the only one to think of that...

[braveheart]

Oh!

[Calmen1]

Does anyone remembers that Snarl is not exactly eating the worlds? The wording is devouring and more important: Blackwing saw a planet of its own inside the Rift. I guess the Snarl is carving it´s own world and using the previous worlds as prime material(or prime ideas...) for this world.

The Snarl is made from the anger of the gods but is also made from a creativity desagreement, so It is a creative being of sort.

I mean... that is the only way I can see this amount of worlds matters to the OOTS story, right?

P.S.: This also answer the Hel question. Hel doesn´t get the souls that the Snarls devours. They are not exactly dead.

[colanderman]

I am reminded of Nicholas Gurewitch's fantastic Mushroom Kingdom of Heaven.

[Fyraltari]

Because now that the Dark One is a god, when this world is destroyed and a new one created he is going to be involved in the creation process. No gate ritual needed to get the gods on board to improve goblin people when that will be hammered out at the next planet's iteration.

That's plan B. That there was numerous worlds before does not change that. Redcloak and the Dark One prefers plan A because
1) All goblins don't die in it.
2) TDO becomes king of all cosmos instaed of one god among around forties.

Oh my dear gods.

The Snarl always gets out. It's inevitable.

Nah, there's a first for everything.

Did the bet not exist before this?

Hel expects the Bet to end with this world so that's probably the only world it ever applied to.

But here and now, they are alive.

WarCraft III's Acolyte: "Where's the harm? In 100 years they'd all be dead anyway."
Discworld's St Brutha: "Maybe so. But, right here, right now, we are alive."*

Every conflict is insignificant at the scale of the universe. That doesn't make them unimportant.

High five?

[runeghost]

I...ah...wow. Yeah, consider my jaw dropped. Did not see that coming.

What that tells me is that this isn't something they can fix by putting up a new world again. At best, that'd be a temporary solution. What they need is a way to untangle the Snarl once and for all. Someth...

How long are the odds on "The Dark One is actually the Snarl"?

Don't their color pallets match?

[umrguy42]

My God! It's full of (dead) stars!

Well, now that Durkon's there, yeah it is. ;p

[Talion]

Don't their color pallets match?

As far as I know, but I'm not versed in art programs to confirm that for a fact, and I wouldn't trust my color vision for it at all.

On the other hand, those are still probably obscenely long odds, and not in the "One in a million is a guarantee" sense. On the other hand, an emissary, servant, or creation of the Snarl could still be on the table. Heck, I'm not particularly convinced that the Dark One's "Plan A" stops at "Threaten".

EDIT:

I think that the world within the rifts is Girard’s contribution to the magical gates Lirian and Dorukan created to hold the snarl in. The snarl is trapped in an illusion in which it is successfully destroying world after world as it has done thousands of times before, content that it is continuing to destroy souls and not looking for a way to escape.

While I like the feel of theory, I would have to discredit it because of the following:

It's not Epic, it's simply a 9th-level illusion—since there aren't many 9th-level illusions in core, there's conceptual room for one that is pretty heavy-hitting that would still be way above anything Eugene ever tried. My closest rules-based analogy was Microcosm, which is a 9th level psionic power. This spell doesn't seem to have a hit point limit, but it does offer a possible means of escape through internal realization. Because, you know, story.

I don't see Girard as having taken the Epic Spellcasting feat, simply because that was more Dorukan's shtick. And as a multi-class ranger/sorcerer, he would have gotten access to it later and he's not really the type to spend all his time studying (when he could be out "recruiting" his defensive team). But I don't think it's necessary for it to be explicitly Epic to be "really powerful." We're getting to the point where the difference between the high-level OOTS and the low-epic Order of the Scribble is mostly one of degrees anyway.

In short, at this point we don't have reason to believe that Girard had the actual (Epic) spellcasting power to pull that kind of illusion off. Could he have? Sure. Is it possible that even a 9th level spell could do it? In theory. Do I like the odds of either? Not at all.

[Barmoz]

Oh... wow...

Uh... I can just imagine the guilt that the good deities must be feeling if Thor's words about Marduk weeping and his own comments about 'we couldn't play nice' were true.

My guess is very little, D&D gods are representations of ideals, and are really only capable of acting according to them. So the good gods are mad and frustrated with the evil gods for not acting according to "good" principles, and the evil deities can't believe the good gods have such sticks up their backsides. I know Thor is showing some remorse, but I doubt that it's what we as humans would feel is guilt. The gods aren't supposed to get along, they might at times be capable of some degree of compromise, but they aren't capable of seeing things from the other side, because they only exist as the personification of their own side.

[georgie_leech]

Re: Ascended Deities...

How do we know the current crop aren't ascended mortals from previous worlds?

[Windscion]

Heck, I'm not particularly convinced that the Dark One's "Plan A" stops at "Threaten".

Well, that's one genie never going back in the bottle if he tries it. And ... we can hope not, but who knows? He's kinda pissed off, but if he pushes too far, he must know his people will pay the price before he does. He seems more "lead from the front" than that.

[Ninja Dragon]

But here and now, they are alive.

I know but, some of those things don't even make sense when you have all the information.

Just how long does Hel expect to hold power, and why does it even matter compared to all the time she has lived?

And the others... Redcloak would probably give up and switch to a plan that involved negotiating future worlds if he knew what was coming. Xykon would go back to mudering random people.

Maybe the Order of the Scribble could actually accomplish something with the gates, I don't know. But if they can't, what was the point?

If you know you'll be dead in a few years, you'll spend that time enjoying life, not trying to secure a lifetime of power.

I guess the Order of the Stick are the first ones who can break this pattern, and for that reason they should fight. But the others... why bother?

[Worldsong]

My guess is very little, D&D gods are representations of ideals, and are really only capable of acting according to them. So the good gods are mad and frustrated with the evil gods for not acting according to "good" principles, and the evil deities can't believe the good gods have such sticks up their backsides. I know Thor is showing some remorse, but I doubt that it's what we as humans would feel is guilt. The gods aren't supposed to get along, they might at times be capable of some degree of compromise, but they aren't capable of seeing things from the other side, because they only exist as the personification of their own side.

This sounds like you've exchanged "Good vs Evil" with "Order vs Chaos"

Compassion is an extremely important part of being Good. Even if you're a representation of the concept of Good I highly doubt you'd stop caring because you're too busy being mad at the Evil gods.

[Ninja Dragon]

Heck, the dwarves probably have the most practical approach for how to live life, because they spend all of it trying to find a way to die with honor so they can go to the plane where they get to live Snarl-free.