OOTS #1139 - The Discussion Thread

[Anarion]

This is fascinating. It completely throws the supposedly known plans of all the villains into question. It also raises some serious questions about the meeting of the gods. Why even have the debate about destroying the planet now? Even if Hel gets a lot of souls and a leading role in her pantheon, they'll loop that around in a few more worlds if they're playing the long game. I wonder if the Gates are something new though, that Dorukan's and Lirian's creation might have been a first among all these many, many worlds.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if the Gates are something new though, that Dorukan's and Lirian's creation might have been a first among all these many, many worlds.

I think that's an intriguing possibility.

[Jaros]

So... How do people feel about "Mandelbrot Graveyard" as a name for this place?

[Nith]

Yup:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

which does make me wonder - how did he come to believe that in the first place?

My guess is that the Order of the Scribble found out enough about the gates and the snarl that when they at some point had contact with a god (they were epic level adventurers) said god gave the story of the creation of the world, death of the Eastern pantheon, and the current situation, without mentioning that this wasn't the second world. OotS the first then drew the wrong conclusions from this, thinking there could be a permanent solution though it required the deliberate destruction of the world.
I note that the fact that there is no permanent solution doesn't weaken the case made by Shojo.

[The Pilgrim]

Also note that the rifts appeared about 66 years ago. Meaning the OOTS world did made it to over a thousand years before the expiry date kicked in.

So, yep, the Gods are getting slowly better at this. Veeery slowly.

[Cleverusername7]

Does anyone remembers that Snarl is not exactly eating the worlds? The wording is devouring and more important: Blackwing saw a planet of its own inside the Rift. I guess the Snarl is carving it´s own world and using the previous worlds as prime material(or prime ideas...) for this world.

The Snarl is made from the anger of the gods but is also made from a creativity desagreement, so It is a creative being of sort.

I was rereading the Godsmoot comics to get a better sense of the god's attitudes and Odin's quote alongside his vote in #999 gets me the most: "I see worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn." Since he's all about prophecies and seeing stuff, perhaps he's seeing what the Snarl is doing? Yarn winding yarn sounds like the Snarl is indeed creating things of its own.

[The MunchKING]

Whatever they are, I'll put a million quatloos on it.

What really? Seems pretty long odds.

I'll take a piece of that action.

[KishouTheBadger]

Holy ****. Wham Page material right there.

Almost makes the whole "destroy the world for the safety of everyone" sound futile and insane if they made hundreds? thousands? millions of worlds consumed by the Snarl. But that doesn't QUITE match the story Shojo told us. At least in missing a key detail that they remade the world countless times.

[knag]

Hard disagree. Three mutually contradictory proposed reasons from the #1139 discussion thread:

- The gods improve the Snarl's prison by building it with extra layers. The internal world is why the rifts took so long to appear in this iteration of the world.
- The internal world is a part of the mechanism of the gates, and is the reason the Snarl did not notice the unsealed rift(s) until Laurin started poking around.
- The Snarl, a being formed from a mass of creative disagreements, is itself creating one or more worlds within its prison ("worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn"), using the power it gained from the souls it devoured in the past (or something to that effect), and/or from the gods it killed.

I think you're implying that the world within is a partially built replacement world, or a template for the same, which would bring the total number of theories to (at least) four. The third is my personal favorite, and I think the first is probably the weakest, but we don't really have much to go on. All four are at least somewhat plausible, and this particular comic does very little to distinguish them, other than (kind of) raising the idea of the fourth.

I'll offer a fifth. The world within the rift is world n-1, where the current world is the n^th world created by the gods. The Snarl does not destroy worlds when it consumes them, but rather they are entangled within it. All the previous worlds are contained within the Snarl, and were it to be unraveled, the multiverse would be flooded with a multitude of new Material Planes.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yup:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

which does make me wonder - how did he come to believe that in the first place?

Well we know the Gods have a collective NDA about the Snarl. When the Scribbles' were digging, they must have made assumptions on very obviously incomplete data.

[Peelee]

I agree, there should be a thread dedicated to discussing this strip. Maybe that idea will catch on.

[Jasdoif]

One claim by Lord Shojo has been refuted: the current world is not uniquely flawed and a replacement world would still allow the Snarl a chance to escape.

Yup:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

which does make me wonder - how did he come to believe that in the first place?

Well, Shojo's statement isn't false: They apparently can remake the world without rifts, but not prevent new rifts from forming.

---

So... How do people feel about "Mandelbrot Graveyard" as a name for this place?

Where do you see the Mandelbrot pattern? Anyway, assuming there is a fractal pattern, my baseless guess would be more of a general Julia set.

[Celticbear]

The second planet collapsed in a fire, and so did the third and fourth, BUT THE FIFTH PLANET

I love Monty Python XD

[Lord Torath]

You can potentially be unmade or never exist in the first place.

Yes to the first, no to the second, at least that we've seen in-comic. If the Snarl made it so you've never existed, there would be no statue of Kraagor, and no Kraagor's Gate, as his sacrifice to the Snarl is what made Kraagor's Gate possible, and no one would remember him enough to even build a statue of him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is fascinating. It completely throws the supposedly known plans of all the villains into question. It also raises some serious questions about the meeting of the gods. Why even have the debate about destroying the planet now? Even if Hel gets a lot of souls and a leading role in her pantheon, they'll loop that around in a few more worlds if they're playing the long game. I wonder if the Gates are something new though, that Dorukan's and Lirian's creation might have been a first among all these many, many worlds.

People in power can (and usually do) use that power to consolidate their grasp on power. Once she is the most powerful deity, she can arrange things so that for many future iterations, she continues to be the most powerful. Odin, I suspect has done the same - but he is not as petty as Hel, so his rule is likely not as terrifying.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

It could be, but the bottom line is that there don't seem to be leftover ascended deities from previous worlds, so something stops them from surviving (I think it is well past plausibility that this is the only world where there have been ascensions). I find my hypothesis that "they need living believers to continue to exist" a simple Occam-y explanation, but if you want to offer your own, I'm all ears.

Grey Wolf

A much simpler explanation is simply no other world lasted long enough to have some mortals ascend to godhood. Why is that past plausibility? Sheer number? We haven't been told anything to indicate that the Dark One and Elven Gods are different from the original gods, except in their origin. Until such time, you shouldn't assume something like "without any living followers they immediately die" or something like that.

Your assumption does not seem very Occam-y, to me at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree, there should be a thread dedicated to discussing this strip. Maybe that idea will catch on.

Oh, and maybe the mods could pin it to the top, so it'd be easy to find. That's be great!

Grey Wolf

[t209]

Well, Shojo's statement isn't false: They apparently can remake the world without rifts, but not prevent new rifts from forming.

---

Well, such is the futility of trying not make rifts.
Also this is getting into Pillars of Eternity, or "the truth about divine beings" plot, territories.

[RVallant]

Huh, maybe the 'world' in the rift is the last world the gods decided to abandon as oppose to destroy.

Maybe the snarl ignored it because it isn't interested in the souls of the world and mortals, so much as it is interested in chewing some gods?

Who knows?

What a fascinating comic, I can't wait to see the resolution.

[Nith]

Yes to the first, no to the second, at least that we've seen in-comic. If the Snarl made it so you've never existed, there would be no statue of Kraagor, and no Kraagor's Gate, as his sacrifice to the Snarl is what made Kraagor's Gate possible, and no one would remember him enough to even build a statue of him.

The second part of the quote is referencing good gods choosing not to create new worlds out of altruism. "Should the gods continue creating new worlds even if they will inevitably be destroyed by the Snarl sooner or later?"

[Jaros]

Where do you see the Mandelbrot pattern? Anyway, assuming there is a fractal pattern, my baseless guess would be more of a general Julia set.

Fractal Graveyard would be far more appropriate, yeah, just had the Jonathan Coulton Mandelbrot Set song in my head and so that's the first one my mind went to.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A much simpler explanation is simply no other world lasted long enough to have some mortals ascend to godhood. Why is that past plausibility? Sheer number?

Sheer number, and improvements - each world lasts more than the previous one, and the ascended gods have been around long enough that the time it took for them to ascend must have passed in previous worlds also.

We haven't been told anything to indicate that the Dark One and Elven Gods are different from the original gods, except in their origin. Until such time, you shouldn't assume something like "without any living followers they immediately die" or something like that.

Yes, we have been told the are different: in their origin. That is different enough that why this world is special enough to have ascended gods where a googleplex of previous worlds did not requires some kind of explanation beyond "this world is special", since the last page pretty much took a baseball to the kneecaps of the idea that this world is in any way special.

Grey Wolf

[Ironsmith]

Huh, maybe the 'world' in the rift is the last world the gods decided to abandon as oppose to destroy.

Maybe the snarl ignored it because it isn't interested in the souls of the world and mortals, so much as it is interested in chewing some gods?

Who knows?

What a fascinating comic, I can't wait to see the resolution.

The alternative that comes to mind is that the gods build planets around planets to minimize the risk of the Snarl breaking free entirely; they have a new barrier up before the old one is totally compromised.

[hamishspence]

Given that Sabine has been around for more than 2 millennia (Paladin Blues bonus strip - Warthog's School of Magic section) - maybe the archfiends have too, and the souls the archfiends have collected, might hail from past worlds.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html


Ganonron has "conquered world after world". Perhaps the gods don't create one world at a time - they may have created many worlds simultaneously at one time, only one of which had the prison - which were first conquered (by Ganonron) then all eaten in a Snarl breakout.

[The Pilgrim]

A much simpler explanation is simply no other world lasted long enough to have some mortals ascend to godhood. Why is that past plausibility? Sheer number? We haven't been told anything to indicate that the Dark One and Elven Gods are different from the original gods, except in their origin. Until such time, you shouldn't assume something like "without any living followers they immediately die" or something like that.

Given that the rifts appeared like 66 years ago, the current world has lasted more than a thousand years as the Gods made it. Why couldn't the lastest one held for centuries also, giving too enought time for their population to give birth to their own Gods?

[Rrmcklin]

Sheer number, and improvements - each world lasts more than the previous one, and the ascended gods have been around long enough that the time it took for them to ascend must have passed in previous worlds also.

Just because it theoretically could have happened in the other worlds doesn't mean it needed to. The possibility of something is no guarantee it will actually happen.

Yes, we have been told the are different: in their origin. That is different enough that why this world is special enough to have ascended gods where a googleplex of previous worlds did not requires some kind of explanation beyond "this world is special", since the last page pretty much took a baseball to the kneecaps of the idea that this world is in any way special.

Grey Wolf

I never said anything about this world being special. It may be but that means nothing for the point I was making. The world doesn't need to have something "special" about it for some mortals to ascend or whatever. It just has to be a flunk, and flunks happen. You shouldn't argue against things people didn't actually say.

Honestly, I'd imagine the real answer is "It doesn't matter for the story, so it won't be brought up at all."

[Mordar]

I wonder if those gravestones wouldn't represent all the campaign worlds that have been abandonned over the years once the GM and players got bored and started playing a different game.

That was my first thought.

That's really pretty darn clever, regardless of if that's the Giant's intent. Snarls of rules getting in the way...petty disagreements among the players that develop the world...even some just abandoned after character creation. I love it.

The, er... The gods aren't very good at this, are they...?

I think it is safe to say that we are not...but we don't give up!

Breathtaking in scope. I am quite impressed.

But I think I know what's going on, now. The Snarl is, indeed, 'collecting' worlds for its prison, as others have suggested... it's basically our Universe.

When the games are all done and gone, all we have is the real world?

Of course this campaign may be the longest running simply because the GM is that good.

That seems like a pretty reasonable guess.

- M

[Ruck]

It could be, but the bottom line is that there don't seem to be leftover ascended deities from previous worlds, so something stops them from surviving (I think it is well past plausibility that this is the only world where there have been ascensions). I find my hypothesis that "they need living believers to continue to exist" a simple Occam-y explanation, but if you want to offer your own, I'm all ears.

Grey Wolf

I actually don't think that's well past plausibility. Given that we've confirmed that the second world only lasted four years, it's entirely possible none of the other worlds lasted long enough to allow for the possibility of gods to be raised from mortals.

This is the first world that used the 3.5 ruleset.

Also an intriguing explanation.

I wonder if the Gates are something new though, that Dorukan's and Lirian's creation might have been a first among all these many, many worlds.

I think that's very likely.

Either Thor wants Durkon to save the world by resealing the Gates, or Thor wants Durkon to let the Snarl out so it can eat all the gods and end this cycle of destruction and recreation.

I'll put 5 GP that the latter definitely will not happen.

[Glorendil]

Damn, I didn't see that coming... what was overwhelming.
Very well done!

[happycrow]

So, what really gets me here is..... if the Gods are made of ideas. And the Snarl is basically the personification of "rip it all down and make a new one" every artist gets when the frustration level gets too high....

How does the Snarl kill Gods? And what happens when it does?