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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default How Mundane is enough?

    The original thread was locked for inflammatory language, but I have asked permission from the moderators and the original poster to restart this thread in a more civil manner, and both have agreed.

    In discussions online forums, we surely have come across people who criticize the Tome of Battle as "too supernatural", and say that they wish to play a Human Fighter as a mundane fighter, not a supernatural blade-adept.

    This begs the question of: "What would constitute a Mundane fighter? Obviously videogame style blasts of fire from my sword ala Desert Wind might be a bit too much,. But what's an acceptable measure of mundane? Is it okay to cleave a stone in half with your sword? What about to fall a large distance like a Dragoon from FF? Hitting multiple enemies with a thrown weapon?
    Avoiding an explosion like a fireball in a bland area with no cover, and not moving to do so? Spell resistance?

    So.. let's start the ball rolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Einstrass
    I prefer to limit "mundane" characters to NPC's, myself, unless everyone's going to be that way. I mean, they're just going to be unimpressive next to the guy that can think you dead, the guy that can raise the dead with a prayer, and the guy who turns into giant magical beasts. Being able to use a sword sort of nifty just doesn't match that, neither according to mechanics nor sensibly.

    I'm fine with ToB. If the wizard is thinking people dead, the option to create fire with your sword makes you sound at least a little formidable in his presense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Indon
    Well, the way I see it:

    If you do something anyone can do, but just so much _amazingly_ better that the _consequences_ of your action is ridiculous, that's mundane.

    If you can do something other people _can't_ do, even a less impressive version of, making it an entire different kind of action, that's not mundane.

    Thus, making an attack for 100 damage is mundane; the damage comes from the same sources as a normal attack, there's just more of it. Using a maneuver to deal 100 damage is not mundane; you're using secret-squirrel-magic-jutsu to do something a commoner can not do on any scale, not even for 1 point of damage. They have to use their mundane option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dullyana
    Considering that, eventually, PCs will be going up against gigantic regenerating turtles and "Those damn crabs", it helps alot when you can do more than poke them with a sharp stick. But that's not the case in a low magic setting, of course.

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    I think mundane can be pretty much described as "whatever a low-to-midlevel" bruiser Monster or any high-lvl NPC-Class (with the exception of Adept) can do. Things Id call "HD-based". These things? Normal people or beings can do them without a hint of magic or Magic heritage. Also, there are some possible exceptions, like Sneak Attack or Evasion(which is oversimplified, but at least I think mundane).
    But mostly anything else isnt. That isnt saying characters should all be mundane, just that there should be a mundane Option of at least approximately the same power.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Get this: Mundane fighters with no super-awesome movie action hero style abilities? There's a way to make that. You play a level 1 Warrior.

    Done and done. Problem solved. Now you can play a totally mundane warrior! No action hero stunts. No magic swords. No epic prowess.

    If you want to slay things with incredible magic powers and toenails bigger than YOU, then you'd better have something a bit more extraordinary on hand than an average human swinging a sword in a completely ordinary manner. Because a thousand average humans with swords actually totally couldn't kill that.

    I mean, seriously, look at any video game, movie, or book where the heroes actually take down the equivelent of, say, level 10 or higher encounters. Now look how bloody ridiculously awesome and NOT mundane they are. We're talking Kratos and Beowulf and so forth here, people. Tales of high level heroes tell you that you're totally supposed to be able to do totally extraordinary things like punch a giant's head clear off. Heck, even fairly low level heroes are totally awesome. Take, for example, Sin City's Marv being able to take being run over by a speeding car repeatedly, or making his save vs a coup de grace (an electric chair, as it were), and saying "Is that all ya got, you pansies?" And yes, low-mid level fighters can save against a coup de grace, and that's totally okay, because heroes are supposed to do crazy stuff like that. That's why your level 5 Fighter or Barbarian or Warblade or whatever can actually get stabbed repeatedly and still totally kick people's asses as if nothing had happened.

    If you don't want to play a high level hero, the problem is easily, easily solved by... not playing a high level hero. Shocking, I know. Play NPC classes and have a grunts game or something. I'm completely serious. There's totally nothing wrong with that.

    As for ToB...
    The flavor in no way requires you to be supernatural (though a few maneuver choices available give you the OPTION to be), just to be extraordinary (which even a Fighter is, really). And really, a warblade has pretty much the same bloody flavor as a Fighter. You can totally make your old Fighter character as a Warblade, and he'll be totally the same flavorwise. Just more mechanically competent. If you're one of those people that has a LOT of trouble with flavor concepts for some reason (You know, the kind of people who think that a Disintegrate ray MUST be green in color, because the description says so, and you're not allowed to change the flavor!), though, I offer this helpful link to help remedy that problem:

    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=849692

    Enjoy.
    Last edited by OneWinged4ngel; 2007-09-15 at 04:30 AM.

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Mundane enough for me: heroes don't require gadgets or kewl powerz to do awesome things. This is my objection to magic items, which detract from the abilities of the protagonist. People often assume (largely because of the way they're hardcoded into D&D 3.x) that if you don't like magic items you want a gritty game where characters die easy.

    I don't. I want a game where they matter more than their gear, and a warrior can pick up any weapon he's trained in and kick much ass. We never saw Conan fretting over whether he'd packed the right combination of magitech to ensure maximum optimal damage output. He just used whatever weapon was to hand, and that changed from story to story.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    To One Winged4ngel:

    Please tell me how in the world Beowulf was supernatural in any way other than a huge strength score.

    Please.

    What the most people are talking about are "magical" type abilities. All the examples you listed don't require "magic".

    Anyways, My biggest problem with ToB is the clunky-ass mechanic it uses, that while not calling it magic, ends up feeling like it anyways.
    Last edited by Crow; 2007-09-15 at 04:45 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    I honestly see a severe believability problem with a universe where a mundane (which I take to mean as: existing or capable of existing in the real world) character of any sort could hope to last three seconds with a fire breathing reptile bigger than a house. Can you play it that way? Sure. But I'm going to have to bite my tongue a lot in a game like that.

    On the other hand, a mystic warrior who harnesses the power of meditation and internal chi to go beyond human possibility seems perfectly fitting in a world where magic exists. It's far more reasonable in my eyes, because if you can gain world-bending power either through simple piety and belief or the rigorous study of textbooks, why would you throw that away?

    I don't believe that a character's power should be based on magical items or spells known, but I just don't see any attraction whatsoever in playing a character who is nothing more than a real world human in a world of things that are so much more interesting.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    I honestly see a severe believability problem with a universe where a mundane (which I take to mean as: existing or capable of existing in the real world) character of any sort could hope to last three seconds with a fire breathing reptile bigger than a house. Can you play it that way? Sure. But I'm going to have to bite my tongue a lot in a game like that.

    On the other hand, a mystic warrior who harnesses the power of meditation and internal chi to go beyond human possibility seems perfectly fitting in a world where magic exists. It's far more reasonable in my eyes, because if you can gain world-bending power either through simple piety and belief or the rigorous study of textbooks, why would you throw that away?

    I don't believe that a character's power should be based on magical items or spells known, but I just don't see any attraction whatsoever in playing a character who is nothing more than a real world human in a world of things that are so much more interesting.

    There are human beings that can take down an attack helicopter or armored vehicle (with the right tactics and equipment). That doesn't require magic. Who's to say a mundane couldn't win through tactics and determination, plus a fair bit of exceptional skill?
    Last edited by Crow; 2007-09-15 at 04:59 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    I don't believe that a character's power should be based on magical items or spells known, but I just don't see any attraction whatsoever in playing a character who is nothing more than a real world human in a world of things that are so much more interesting.
    Obviously the sword and sorcery genre is not for you.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    This fix for the fighter right here is what I think people want when the want a mundane fighter.

    I think people just want to see a fighter who does not use magic but uses lots of training and tactics. You don't need magic to do these things just, a class that is a master of the basics of combat.
    [url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53501]



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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    It's a fine line and very relative thing.
    Basically, for me "mundane enough" is when fighter isn't doing something human just plainly couldn't do, like flying or teleporting. Extraordinary feats like jumping great distances or bashing through rock are fine, as long as they're done by high-level characters. I don't find ToB too supernatural myself, with exceptions of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind disciplines. I don't like ToB, but it has nothing to do with it being too "supernatural", because it's not.
    Last edited by Morty; 2007-09-15 at 06:07 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Mundanity is for low levels and NPCs. Although I would love to see a soap opera with level 15+ D&D characters.

    I agree that less 'stuff' based power would be nice. By level 20 have, say, a magic weapon and any two of armour, shield, ring, amulet, cloak, etc, and nothing more except disposables. They should scale with level, too, to get rid of the need for mirabicaries to trade in the old stuff. And change effect depending on class
    For example: Sorra the level 8 warblade finds Char, a magical longsword, which for her acts as a +1 flaming longsword. Preferring greatswords, she gives it to Drusas, the level 10 warmage. Char gives Drusas +2 caster level on all his fire spells. Later, Drusas offers Char as tribute to Mishka, a great warlord (and level 17 swordsage). Mishka can wield the sword as a +2 fiery burst speed longsword and he gains inferno blade as a bonus readied maneuver.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    I think if you want mundane, you should play d20 modern or something. 3.5 e D&D is severely magic-dominated, and low-magic is hard to pull off.

    d20 modern is easily adapted to be in a 'medieval' setting (d20 past, anyone?)

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    It's all relative. Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Thorin Oakenshield, Conan, Tanis, Sturm, Caramon; that sort of thing. They're all a cut above your average professional warrior, but they don't rely on internal supernatural power.

    Odyssesus, Hector, Siegfried, Hector, Paris, Arthur, Gawain, Roland, Beowulf, Oliver, Beues of Hamtoun, Guy of Warwick, Tristan and a host of other Middle English heroes would probably also qualify. Many of these have external supernatural aid, usually expressed as divine favour. I'm okay with that, as it's not usually dominant, even if not always passive.

    I'm okay with heroes occasionally doing amazing things, it's when they do them as a matter of course that I start to get bored.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    For the sake of those who seem to think that 'mundane' means 'boring,' I'd like to note that 'magic/mundane' is probably one of the more common dichotomies in fantasy fiction. Mundane is 'anything which isn't magic.'

    I like the idea of a mundane character in a world filled with magic and giant dragons and such. I like, basically, boss battles in the Zelda games. You don't usually win through anything more than skill with a sword, and being maneuverable. You win through primarily mundane means. I like that. Quickness, strength, skill. While your average person could not do things like this, they are not manifesting fireballs or anything like that--they're just better, stronger, faster.

    A good place to look for mundane abilities is rogue and swashbuckler, two of my favorite classes, precisely because they are a mundane person in a world of magic and giant monsters. Where the wizard and sorcerer gain more arcane power as time wears on, the rogue and sorcerer just learn how to stab people better, or learn a little flourish that makes a hit in vital locations crippling as well as painful.

    So how mundane is mundane enough? When I use a class ability, I want to feel like it's not just some spell/maneuver/stance that I know and have a finite number of that won the day. I want to feel like my character's skill, strength, training, panache, or whatever did it.

    It's one of the reasons I don't like playing blaster mages, either. I never really feel like it's my character doing it. With illusions, enchantments, and so on, there's a definite aspect of my character involved (and if you make the flavor right, summoners, but otherwise summoning spells are among my least favorite). (Sometimes I don't mind blaster mages, though, but I am fickle on this subject and that's neither here nor there.)

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    To One Winged4ngel:

    Please tell me how in the world Beowulf was supernatural in any way other than a huge strength score.

    Please.

    What the most people are talking about are "magical" type abilities. All the examples you listed don't require "magic".

    Yes, they do.

    Or well, as ToB, you don't necessarily call it magicbut it ends up feeling the same none the less. ;)



    If a fighter is capable of enduring dragon's breath that corrodes the stone around him by just being so "tough" it is supernatural. Nobody in real life can do even a smaller version of it. If there is acid that corrodes large areas of stone, people in there die unless they are supernatural.

    If a fighter is able to punch a dagger through dragons' scales, though the scales are much harder than the dagger - and possibly even so thick that the dagger would hardly go through it all - by just being strong enough, it is supernatural.




    Fighters are just as supernatural as any other character or creature in DnD. He isn't just a lot stronger and more skillfull version of a normal human when he stands nearly unharmed against the acid that corroded stone around him, he is already supernatural..


    The diffrence is, that fighters are less varying in their supernaturality. While others gain all new cool abilities, the mundane fighter become flavor wise supernatural too but game mechanically the thing they do in combat stays the same. "Soak damage, hit, damage, soa...".


    This is why I like ToB. It doesn't make fighters any more supernatural than they were. Just adds something new to the ways they are.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    The things your talking about have nothing to do with "supernatural" or not. The issues you cite are issues with the Hitpoint system and how you interprit it.

    Taking a bunch of damage from a dragon's breath and still living to you means standing there and bathing in it while it melts the rocks around you.

    Taking a bunch of damage from a dragon's breath and still living to me means using your skill and athletiscism to get out of the way of most of it (Evasion would be a greater version of this, but you still get a reflex save whether you have evasion or not. Ever wonder why?).
    Last edited by Crow; 2007-09-15 at 08:58 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    The things your talking about have nothing to do with "supernatural" or not. The issues you cite are issues with the Hitpoint system and how you interprit it.

    Taking a bunch of damage from a dragon's breath and still living to you means standing there and bathing in it while it melts the rocks around you.

    Taking a bunch of damage from a dragon's breath and still living to me means using your skill and athletiscism to either get out of the way of most of it (Evasion would be a greater version of this, but you still get a reflex save whether you have evasion or not. Ever wonder why?).
    Well, that isn't how the game is built, really.

    Reason: you can be unconcious when the dragon breathes directly at you and you still survive due to the sheet amount of hitpoints. How do you explain that by being athletic? With paladins it is easy, the god protects you. However that is already the supernatural explanation that doesn't work for the "mundane" fighters. (EDIT: Imagine that bruce lee - high level mundane fighter or monk - was unconcious and suddenly a dragon appeared and breathed in a way that corroded stone floor around him. He has skills, he has training, he is tough but as a mundane person, how do you explain that?)

    Also, non-supernatural explanation of falling 700 feet and being close to unharmed (easy for high level barbarian or fighter) by just being so tough? You can't just say "well, athletism" as I don't think (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that there is any kind of movement that would negate the falling damage from high heights. Sure, I have seen martial artist jump off 2 or three story buildings' roofs because they are still going forward too and can change the energy to that by proper rolls but 700 feet of direct falling? No way bruce lee (a high level mundane fighter type, I would say) would have done that.




    On the other hand, if you can explain all that kind of things with mundane flavor, doing so on martial adepts should be really easy too.
    Last edited by Pegasos989; 2007-09-15 at 09:05 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    The difference isn't really between supernatural/mundane. As has been pointed out, the ability to take a fall from 7 stories and keep on going is supernatural.

    The difference is Western vs Eastern myth. Sure, baby Hercules could crawl out of his crib and strangle big snakes. But he'd attribute it to divine might, not to his "Grip of the Unrelenting Tiger"

    Now, I like the Eastern flavor. I think D&D long ago stepped away from "this borrows from the two great mythologies: Greek and Norse". But that flavor permeates the rules, not just the flavor text. The basic premise of "special moves that work once or twice per fight" is just not a European thing.

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    The difference isn't really between supernatural/mundane. As has been pointed out, the ability to take a fall from 7 stories and keep on going is supernatural.

    The difference is Western vs Eastern myth. Sure, baby Hercules could crawl out of his crib and strangle big snakes. But he'd attribute it to divine might, not to his "Grip of the Unrelenting Tiger"

    Now, I like the Eastern flavor. I think D&D long ago stepped away from "this borrows from the two great mythologies: Greek and Norse". But that flavor permeates the rules, not just the flavor text. The basic premise of "special moves that work once or twice per fight" is just not a European thing.
    Sweet Jesus, not this again.
    If the only thing that bothers you is the names of manuevers, change them. I agree that manuever mechanics is bad, but it's not really "un-european".
    And falling from 700 feet and living through it is just badly designed rules where people that are supposed to be mundane are doing superawesome things without even being particulary high-level.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    The difference isn't really between supernatural/mundane. As has been pointed out, the ability to take a fall from 7 stories and keep on going is supernatural.

    The difference is Western vs Eastern myth. Sure, baby Hercules could crawl out of his crib and strangle big snakes. But he'd attribute it to divine might, not to his "Grip of the Unrelenting Tiger"7
    Good point, I completely agree.

    Now, I like the Eastern flavor. I think D&D long ago stepped away from "this borrows from the two great mythologies: Greek and Norse". But that flavor permeates the rules, not just the flavor text. The basic premise of "special moves that work once or twice per fight" is just not a European thing.
    But a lot of classes already have such. Most have used /day mechanic instead of /encounter but same thing, really.

    Druids use wild shape and after some levels, the amount is around once per encounter.
    Going towards more mundane, paladins have similar smite.
    And even more mundane, barbarians have similar rage.

    Also, a lot of half-mundaneish classes and prestigeclasses have such. Ravagers with their daily con damaging strikes, stonelords which can, if I recall, heal themselves with mud once per day...
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    On the other hand, if you can explain all that kind of things with mundane flavor, doing so on martial adepts should be really easy too.
    Nobody said it is easy to explain away every inconsistancy in the rule set. Honestly, if a fighter falls off a 1,000' Cliff, I rule he's dead. Same if a Dragon breathes flames on his unconscious body. I treat them the same as the Drowning Rules, if it seems like they should be dead, they are. When the rules contradict the reality of the game world, it's the rules that are wrong. More inconsistancies to have to explain away as mundane is undesirable, in my opinion.

    On the other hand, if I want to play a more supernatural style game of D&D, I won't bother to explain these inconsistancies and I will use Tome of Battle.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-09-15 at 09:24 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    Sweet Jesus, not this again.
    If the only thing that bothers you is the names of manuevers, change them. I agree that manuever mechanics is bad, but it's not really "un-european".
    And falling from 700 feet and living through it is just badly designed rules where people that are supposed to be mundane are doing superawesome things without even being particulary high-level.
    How come you say they are supposed to be mundane and it is a rules flaw? I really think that it was intended that high or even mid level fighters aren't mundane.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Nobody said it is easy to explain away every inconsistancy in the rule set. Honestly, if a fighter falls off a 1,000' Cliff, I rule he's dead. Same if a Dragon breathes flames on his unconscious body. I treat them the same as the Drowning Rules, if it seems like they should be dead, they are. When the rules contradict the reality of the game world, it's the rules that are wrong. More inconsistancies to have to explain away as mundane is undesirable, in my opinion.[/I].

    Okay, you are naturally free to play your version of DnD with the version of "Fighter types are mundane because I remove all the rules allowing them to be not mundane" if you enjoy it (though I likely wouldn't).

    However, just remember that that is just houseruling that fighters aren't what they are by following the mechanics - supernatural.

    To tell the truth, I don't see what's the point of ruling that fighters become non-supernatural again unless you also rule that wizards won't gain spells... :/
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post

    But a lot of classes already have such. Most have used /day mechanic instead of /encounter but same thing, really.
    I think it's not quite the same thing. The /day mechanic is a ham-handed attempt at balance. It works fine, but there's really no good explanation for some of them, just "this sounds fair". If it introduces any flavor, it's a "this thing is very tiring", or "your magic is limited".

    The maneuver recovery mechanisms introduce a different flavor there: the character is setting himself up for a special move. Obviously, there's going to be more evolution in these kind of rules, but it's moving towards a place where you can see your enemy setting up a move or combo and try to stop it. Or at least "attack now before he recovers".

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    Okay, you are naturally free to play your version of DnD with the version of "Fighter types are mundane because I remove all the rules allowing them to be not mundane" if you enjoy it (though I likely wouldn't).
    So do you allow Characters who are drowning to reset to 0 Hit Points? Come on, it's not 'my version', it's just not RAW. I'm just following the lead of previous editions which said exactly what I'm saying. If it seems like they're dead, they are. It applies equally to all classes, not just Fighters.
    However, just remember that that is just houseruling that fighters aren't what they are by following the mechanics - supernatural.
    Of course it's a House Rule, but so is fixing the Drowning Mechanic. Examine the way Feats interact with Mounted Charges. D&D is full of holes, it doesn't make it 'supernatural', it just makes it a game.
    To tell the truth, I don't see what's the point of ruling that fighters become non-supernatural again unless you also rule that wizards won't gain spells... :/
    Erm, what? The point is just the same as it is in Swords and Sorcery type fiction, to distinguish between those who can and those who cannot use magic. A Character surviving a long fall or a Fireball whilst unconscious isn't evidence of supernatural ability, it's just an artefact of the system. It can be explained by divine intervention or dumb luck by the RAW or the game rules can be ignored in favour of more mundane consequences.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-09-15 at 10:34 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    How come you say they are supposed to be mundane and it is a rules flaw? I really think that it was intended that high or even mid level fighters aren't mundane.
    Living through falling great distances isn't particulary hard even or not-so-high levels. And in my personal opinion, fighters should be blatantly non-mundane on fairly high levels.
    That, and falling from great heights ought to be deadly for everyone. But that's just me.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    The difference isn't really between supernatural/mundane. As has been pointed out, the ability to take a fall from 7 stories and keep on going is supernatural.

    The difference is Western vs Eastern myth. Sure, baby Hercules could crawl out of his crib and strangle big snakes. But he'd attribute it to divine might, not to his "Grip of the Unrelenting Tiger"

    Now, I like the Eastern flavor. I think D&D long ago stepped away from "this borrows from the two great mythologies: Greek and Norse". But that flavor permeates the rules, not just the flavor text. The basic premise of "special moves that work once or twice per fight" is just not a European thing.
    Hrm... If you study the Spanish sword fighting style known as the Mysterious Circle, or perhaps Manciolino's Opra nova (a Venetian fight manual) you will see maneuvers with names like 'iron gate of the wild boar', and 'closed long tail', and so on.

    Stupid names for fighting stances and maneuvers are not Eastern. Westerners did it too. It's just that Eastern Martial Arts has better PR and because of the Western attitude of 'It's exotic/foreign, so it must be *better*.'

    Just like everyone thinks martial arts is purely Oriental. There are many European martial arts from the Medieval and Ancient periods. Greek wrestling, Pankration, Khridoli, Glima, Savate, Jogo do Pau are all historical martial arts from Europe. And they all have silly names for their maneuvers.
    Last edited by Fhaolan; 2007-09-15 at 11:04 AM.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    Okay, you are naturally free to play your version of DnD with the version of "Fighter types are mundane because I remove all the rules allowing them to be not mundane" if you enjoy it (though I likely wouldn't).

    However, just remember that that is just houseruling that fighters aren't what they are by following the mechanics - supernatural.

    To tell the truth, I don't see what's the point of ruling that fighters become non-supernatural again unless you also rule that wizards won't gain spells... :/
    Dude, you are not playing fair here. You keep bringing up issues which are almost the sole responsibility of the Hitpoint system. It has nothing to do with fighters being supernatural or not, as it applies to every class in D&D. Commoners are supernatural by your standards.
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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Dude, you are not playing fair here. You keep bringing up issues which are almost the sole responsibility of the Hitpoint system. It has nothing to do with fighters being supernatural or not, as it applies to every class in D&D. Commoners are supernatural by your standards.
    In a world where gods walk the earth, dragons make regular lunch of large standing armies, the dude with the pointy hat can kill half the town without even thinking about it, and the neighbor's housecat is a credible threat to anyone of first or second level, damn straight commoners'd better be supernatural.

    D&D's world--at least, any of the worlds that are supported by book releases by WotC--are very fantastic: there are inhabitants in these worlds that are more powerful as infants than standard humans are when they're thirty. As such, one can safely assume that humans in the D&D universe aren't exactly humans as they are in our universe.

    Mundaneness, in a high-fantasy setting like D&D, is frequently lethal. If it so happens that you're lucky enough that it's not lethal and you're still mundane, you're not a hero. And D&D is about heroes, last I checked.

    Ever notice how there are almost no heroes in fantasy stories that are about 'some guy'? They're almost always about some sort of exceptional person--whether that be heritage, magical prowess, extraordinary martial prowess, or something else entirely. They're all supernatural, because that's what's interesting.
    Last edited by Fax Celestis; 2007-09-15 at 12:15 PM.

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    Default Re: How Mundane is enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasos989 View Post
    If a fighter is capable of enduring dragon's breath that corrodes the stone around him by just being so "tough" it is supernatural. Nobody in real life can do even a smaller version of it. If there is acid that corrodes large areas of stone, people in there die unless they are supernatural.

    If a fighter is able to punch a dagger through dragons' scales, though the scales are much harder than the dagger - and possibly even so thick that the dagger would hardly go through it all - by just being strong enough, it is supernatural.
    A level 1 commoner has a 5% chance of doing either of those. The Fighter isn't any more 'supernatural' than the commoner; he's just more consistent.

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