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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering

    Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground


    This OP is currently full of placeholder answers. Check back in a week.

    I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
    It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy a Start Collecting! box and your favourite Index.
    Or, if you're specifically into Primaris Marines or Death Guard, GW has conveniently set up a number of 'beginner boxes' to get you started.


    What's Dark Imperium?
    Dark Imperium contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

    Comments on Dark Imperium forces.

    How much does it cost?
    Placeholder Answer.

    Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

    Okay, I've got everything. What next?
    Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army. Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

    However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

    How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
    The recommended minimum is 750.
    However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

    As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1000 Points with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

    Comments on Power Rating.

    What's the difference between Power Rating and Points Cost?
    ...A lot.


    I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
    First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

    Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

    Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

    And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

    Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
    Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

    If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

    Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

    How much terrain do I need?
    Anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want at least anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. Don't forget that not all Terrain is 'equal', and you will definitely want a few pieces of terrain that block Line of Sight.

    I don't like using Unique Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
    Your opponents probably don't. Unique Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Unique Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Unique Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

    However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Especially if you play Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

    So which Allies should I pick?
    Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

    I can't paint.
    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

    Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
    Not exactly. There are certainly bad, individual units. But, on the whole, every Faction is playable. However, you must remember that Allies are an intended part of the game - even if you, personally don't like them. If your Faction's entire army list is lacking in a certain area, you may have to consider whether or not it was intended to be that way, and you will have to consider whether or not to bring Allies into your army.

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    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-12-05 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Last Time in the Eternal Darkness...

    • Kill Team has been out for a while, with one Major Tournament under its belt. Time to start breaking it.
    • Rumour says that the next major change to the game is that each Faction in your army can only use its own Command Points. This will severely impact armies that don't use 2+ Battalions of the same Faction, and/or severely impact those Factions that can't or don't regularly or easily make Brigade Detachments.


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    I'm looking forward to seeing the FAQ. I reckon Guard brigades stay in, Slamguinius (and Blood Angels) will suck. Eldar continue to be broken.

    It won't affect me much - I currently switch between solo Deathwatch, solo Tallarn (mostly tanks), and Tallarn with a Deathwatch Patrol. No Brigades for me.

    I managed to smash a Guard brigade last game I played, but it wasn't the broken Straken + Knight + Slamguinius vomit that often comes up in tournaments.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Bookmarked.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Unless the errata has some Tau buffs, it won't really affect me.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    Unless the errata has some Tau buffs, it won't really affect me.
    Same here. Ad Mech are just gonna keep doing their thing and my other armies don't have Codexes
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    Unless the errata has some Tau buffs, it won't really affect me.
    I'm done with Tau. Love the models, will never play them again in 8e until they get a new codex.

    Admech fills that shooty army itch without the bad rules.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Imperium
    Space Marines: *shrug* They got Guilliman and Adept of the Codex...And also all of their Stratagems are basically terrible. So it doesn't really matter. Ultimately there isn't really any change.

    Blood Angels: ...Are in significant trouble.

    Dark Angels: Of the Astartes armies, they have the best Troops anyway. Making 2+ Battalions, plus Azrael, shouldn't be a problem.

    Deathwatch: Their Troops are good. It's a shame they don't have good HQs. Certainly not 4 of them.

    Grey Knights: Anyone who is taking 2+ Battalions of Grey Knights is in for a bad time, even before Command Points are factored in.

    Space Wolves: Nobody cares. Move along.

    Astra Militarum: Can make Brigades and thus will never not be strong until there's some sort of rule that nerfs hordes. Basically the real winner, here. Because Guard were strong before the nerf, and the nerf that could happen...Doesn't affect them. Way to fail, GW.

    Ministorum/Sororitas: Their Troops are good. Their HQs are good. They don't have a Codex, so they don't have any Stratagems worth doing. So who cares?

    Adeptus Custodes: Outrider Detachments and Supreme Commands of Jetbikes are dead. However, we have seen a number of lists feature in major tournaments because seriously, Custodes Troops are really, really good. Nothing wrong with making a Custodes Battalion. Two, however, is a serious problem.

    AdMech: Keep making dual Battalions. Nothing has changed.

    Imperial Knights: Solitary Knights basically just died. As did pretty much any ability to use Exalted Court and/or Heirlooms of the Household.

    Chaos
    Chaos Space Marines: Like Space Marines, it's one of the original four Codecies, which means all the Stratagems are basically garbage so who cares? As long as you have points for Veterans of the Long War once a turn, and then maybe Tide of Traitors, and then Infiltrate a few units...Yeah. You'll be fine.

    Death Guard: Run Poxwalkers. Who cares? Keep doing that.

    Thousand Sons: Thousand Sons don't really rely on Stratagems, so Supreme Commands will still be a thing.

    Daemons: Sad face.

    Aeldari Filth
    Craftworlds: My guess is Ynnari will still count as Craftworlds for all intents and purposes. So no changes. However not spamming Agents of Vect anymore is kind of a kick in the junk. So...Anything that makes Craftworld players sad is alright by me!

    Drukhari: Triple Drukari Detachments are already topping Tournaments and destroying the casual meta as we type.

    Harlequins: Harlequins don't rely on Stratagems to win games. So Outriders of a bajillion Jetbikes will still remain a thing that exists next to double Battalions of Drukhari.

    Tyranids
    Tyranids: Running double Battalions is easy, and good.

    Genestealer Cults: No Codex yet. Only one Stratagem worth having. So just run a Supreme Command, roll a '6' and win the game.

    Xenos Nobody Cares About
    Orks / Necrons / T'au: Nothing happens.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-09-13 at 08:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Imperium
    Space Marines: *shrug* They got Guilliman and Adept of the Codex...And also all of their Stratagems are basically terrible. So it doesn't really matter. Ultimately there isn't really any change.

    Blood Angels: ...Are in significant trouble.

    Dark Angels: Of the Astartes armies, they have the best Troops anyway. Making 2+ Battalions, plus Azrael, shouldn't be a problem.

    Deathwatch: Their Troops are good. It's a shame they don't have good HQs. Certainly not 4 of them.

    Grey Knights: Anyone who is taking 2+ Battalions of Grey Knights is in for a bad time, even before Command Points are factored in.

    Space Wolves: Nobody cares. Move along.

    Astra Militarum: Can make Brigades and thus will never not be strong until there's some sort of rule that nerfs hordes. Basically the real winner, here. Because Guard were strong before the nerf, and the nerf that could happen...Doesn't affect them. Way to fail, GW.

    Ministorum/Sororitas: Their Troops are good. Their HQs are good. They don't have a Codex, so they don't have any Stratagems worth doing. So who cares?

    Adeptus Custodes: Outrider Detachments and Supreme Commands of Jetbikes are dead. However, we have seen a number of lists feature in major tournaments because seriously, Custodes Troops are really, really good. Nothing wrong with making a Custodes Battalion. Two, however, is a serious problem.

    AdMech: Keep making dual Battalions. Nothing has changed.

    Imperial Knights: Solitary Knights basically just died. As did pretty much any ability to use Exalted Court and/or Heirlooms of the Household.

    Chaos
    Chaos Space Marines: Like Space Marines, it's one of the original four Codecies, which means all the Stratagems are basically garbage so who cares? As long as you have points for Veterans of the Long War once a turn, and then maybe Tide of Traitors, and then Infiltrate a few units...Yeah. You'll be fine.

    Death Guard: Run Poxwalkers. Who cares? Keep doing that.

    Thousand Sons: Thousand Sons don't really rely on Stratagems, so Supreme Commands will still be a thing.

    Daemons: Sad face.

    Aeldari Filth
    Craftworlds: My guess is Ynnari will still count as Craftworlds for all intents and purposes. So no changes. However not spamming Agents of Vect anymore is kind of a kick in the junk. So...Anything that makes Craftworld players sad is alright by me!

    Drukhari: Triple Drukari Detachments are already topping Tournaments and destroying the casual meta as we type.

    Harlequins: Harlequins don't rely on Stratagems to win games. So Outriders of a bajillion Jetbikes will still remain a thing that exists next to double Battalions of Drukhari.

    Tyranids
    Tyranids: Running double Battalions is easy, and good.

    Genestealer Cults: No Codex yet. Only one Stratagem worth having. So just run a Supreme Command, roll a '6' and win the game.

    Xenos Nobody Cares About
    Orks / Necrons / T'au: Nothing happens.
    Is this based on the rumors, or has the FAQ dropped and pages aren't updated yet?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    Is this based on the rumors
    Affirmative.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    I feel like we've missed an opportunity here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/...KMonopolySep13


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    It always disappoints me when the corner spaces are left regular Monopoly. Could've had "The Black Ship" for Jail, "Terran Pilgrimage" for Free Parking, "The Inquisition" for Go To Jail and "Standard Issue Rations" for Start. Or something. I've seen them changed before, I know it's allowed!

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    My main army is a 2 battalions of BA only.

    I'm undecided on how much nerf I am going to be stuck with.

    For sure, I will not get any buffs.

    On the plus side, I am waiting for the ork Codex to get mine ot of storage. Thoses should be interesting.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    My army is, always has been, and always will be primary Imperial Guard. It's good to be back on top.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    so question; with the following kill team:

    Spoiler: Kill Team Kraken
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    ++ Kill Team List (Adeptus Astartes) [98pts] ++

    + Configuration +

    List Configuration: Matched Play: Kill Team

    + Leader +

    Intercessor Sergeant [18pts]: Bolt rifle, Leader, Power sword

    + Specialists +

    Intercessor [15pts]: Bolt rifle, Comms

    Reiver [17pts]: Combat knife, Grapnel Launcher, Veteran

    Reiver Sergeant [18pts]: Combat, Combat knife, Grapnel Launcher, Heavy bolt pistol

    + Non-specialists +

    Intercessor [15pts]: Bolt rifle

    Intercessor [15pts]: Bolt rifle

    ++ Total: [98pts] ++


    Would you prefer a Veteran or Scout?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Maybe we will finally see an end to endless Deathcompanies and over and over repeats of Net list Slamguinius mixed in with every other army.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Maybe we will finally see an end to endless Deathcompanies and over and over repeats of Net list Slamguinius mixed in with every other army.
    Netlisting. Will. Happen. When. There. Are. Only. A handful. Of. Good. Tactics.

    How many times can that be repeated?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Maybe we will finally see an end to endless Deathcompanies
    No we wont. Death Company will replace Blood Angel Captains because they don't need Death Visions to work and do exactly the same thing for at least 2 CPs less.
    You don't need to Honour the Chapter if you have five times as many Thunder Hammers.

    We will see more Death Companies. Not less.

    and over and over repeats of Net list Slamguinius mixed in with every other army.
    Remove top choice, go to second choice.

    Blood Angel Captains will be fair useless. They will be replaced with The Sanguinor and/or Sang Priests with Jump Packs and/or Lemartes and life will go on.
    No more Knight Castellans means that 500 Points in the Guard Brigade will be freed up for Death Company and Sanguinary Ancients. Exactly the same archetype. Using different models.

    That, or everyone starts running at least three Knights. Or <Imperium> gets dropped entirely and everyone starts running Drukhari armies.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-09-13 at 08:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Doesnt make it less of a plague or less a reason to scorn the unoriginal sheep who keep doing it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Doesnt make it less of a plague or less a reason to scorn the unoriginal sheep who keep doing it.
    It's a game of numbers. The numbers are the same for everyone. Nerds will bust out the Excel spreadsheet and start MathHammering out Damage-per-Point (the 'to wound' table is garbage, and AP works the same against everyone). Once the best unit in the game is figured out (hint; It's Death Company), why go for anything less?

    Or would you prefer tournaments to be...

    "That guy over there is running Death Company. Oh well. I guess only one of us gets to use the best unit in the game. Looks like the winner is already decided because no-one is allowed to use any of the same things."

    "That guy is running the same army as me. Oh poot. Take me home so I can change."

    The idea that two (intelliegent) people will read a Codex and came to the same conclusion (independently) on which units are good and which units are trash is pretty universal. Nobody wants to spend hundreds of [currency] on an army that loses. So, if a player feels that way, it behooves them to figure out what the best unit/s in the book is/are, and why. Now, Codex day-of-release, you have a bunch of smart people who work it out...Then, thanks to the incredible internet, they tell everyone. Space Wolves is DoA. Almost every reviewer said so, without actually saying so. How come every Reviewer was able to say almost the same thing, if they were the ones doing the reviews, and their reviews weren't out yet?
    That's right. It's a game of numbers. And numbers are the same for everyone.

    The only other conclusion, is that tournaments are cancer killing the hobby. Which I fundamentally disagree with. As tournaments drive innovation in the hobby, sales for GW, and provide data for the next buff and nerf cycle. So, if you're looking at a bunch of lists, and you see the Top 3 running almost incidental lists with similar lists peppering the rest of the Top 100, you can guarantee that GW has seen the results (especially from a sponsored Major like NOVA). So...Like I've already told you; Just chill out.

    If you have a problem with copy-paste lists. The real blame lies with GW for not making everything in the entire game worth taking.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Ornithologist View Post
    My main army is a 2 battalions of BA only.

    I'm undecided on how much nerf I am going to be stuck with.

    For sure, I will not get any buffs.

    On the plus side, I am waiting for the ork Codex to get mine ot of storage. Thoses should be interesting.
    If you are running a pure faction army, then you won't be affected by the rumoured nerf. You might have a different nerf, but we've got no information on that right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Netlisting. Will. Happen. When. There. Are. Only. A handful. Of. Good. Tactics.

    How many times can that be repeated?
    More like netlisting will happen period. I mean what are chess guides but a different kind of netlisting?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.
    I can't tell if you want cheese to go with your whine, or if you want me off your lawn. seriously play what you want, nobody cares until you try to tell them what they can play. Also what kind of fluff player doesn't want Blood Angels to take Death Company? That's kinda their thing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Admiral View Post
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    The orange/brown looks a bit patchy, but it also sorta fits, so YMMV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.
    So, things were much better when every store had it's one or two top players who ran the top lists and there was very little innovation? You do you friend, but if you think that "before the internet" (whatever that timeline is meant to be) meant that each 'dex didn't have no-brainer units like SW termies, Pulsa Rokkit Orks, Banshee's in Falcons or any other blatantly broken older edition garbage that anyone with a grasp of the game could see were much better than anything else, you're only fooling yourself.

    If you're facing off against "cheesy netlist crap", that's an issue with the people you're playing, not netlisting as it's perfectly normal for people to simply runwhat they like rather than copy-pasting the latest GT winners list. I'm not saying people don't do that, 'cause they totally do, but if they're doing that in a casual meta, then they're ****ters and generally not worth playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    I can't tell if you want cheese to go with your whine, or if you want me off your lawn. seriously play what you want, nobody cares until you try to tell them what they can play. Also what kind of fluff player doesn't want Blood Angels to take Death Company? That's kinda their thing.
    It's one of their things. I'd actually expect lots of players not to take DC since the BA have a wide range of gimmicks specialty units - librarian dreads, sang guard, ASM/VV focus, baal preds, stormravens, alongside the usual marine stuff available to everyone.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    Whatever floats your boat. I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell. 40k before the internet was such a cool place. Every store had its own meta and visitors either did really good by having something no one expected or really bad not being geared up to take on that meta. Its a flaw in the system that one army type can win over and over. Guess that one reason I stay away from hyper competitive nerds, I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.
    Oh, I'll agree to that seeing the same list over and over again is boring. It's why I love my current meta because pretty much anything goes since it's not that competitive. Which I suppose brings up my point. Every store/region/area still does have it's own meta. Sometimes that's ultra competitive, but often times it's not. In fact I'd say that more often then not, people will play a less competitive game, because of budget restraints, a spoken/unspoken agreement, or simply because they want to put down the minis they find cool rather then what's good.

    But the high level tournament scene is different. Once prizes, prestige, and the simple knowledge that other people are bringing their best then people will play as hard as they can. And that's always been the case. And the thing is? The results would end up looking very similar to what we get now. Because that's something we don't see. We don't see the large number of lists of people who simply made the strongest list out of what they owned. But the top players were still running the same top lists as each other, because Warhammer has always had a 'best strategy' and despite what Cheesegear says, people were always able to calculate out what that was.

    So there's no point in hammering down on 'netlisting'. It's always existed and it's basically impossible to stop. Because Warhammer, even in it's most complex of editions, is still a pretty simple game. Though there is one way to fight it. And that, hilariously enough, is having a nerf/buff cycle like GW has right now. Staying on the top of a changing meta is expensive, and I'm hearing about people who just don't think it's worth it anymore. But therer will always be those with the money, time, and desire to win to just bite that bullet. (Alternatively, people whose collection is so big they just always have the top army)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    So there's no point in hammering down on 'netlisting'. It's always existed and it's basically impossible to stop. Because Warhammer, even in it's most complex of editions, is still a pretty simple game. Though there is one way to fight it. And that, hilariously enough, is having a nerf/buff cycle like GW has right now. Staying on the top of a changing meta is expensive, and I'm hearing about people who just don't think it's worth it anymore. But therer will always be those with the money, time, and desire to win to just bite that bullet. (Alternatively, people whose collection is so big they just always have the top army)
    Except its all nerfs, all the time and thats really depressing. Particularly because i can compare it to Kings of War who also has a yearly book that they make for Tournament play, and every Clash of Kings has radically shifted the meta and usually not by nerfing stuff, but by buffing poor options to make them viable. Don't get me wrong, they nerf stuff, but only if its opressive and not just because people use it a lot (looking at the Stormravens here) whereas buffs are generally because a unit isn't being touched. Mantic is also good about asking the player base about why noone uses the units in question, so that helps.

    Basically, if GW wants to make a truly balanced game they have to step up their communication skills, because the constant nerf hammer is getting old really fast and they've barely hit any army i play.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Except its all nerfs, all the time and thats really depressing. Particularly because i can compare it to Kings of War who also has a yearly book that they make for Tournament play, and every Clash of Kings has radically shifted the meta and usually not by nerfing stuff, but by buffing poor options to make them viable. Don't get me wrong, they nerf stuff, but only if its opressive and not just because people use it a lot (looking at the Stormravens here) whereas buffs are generally because a unit isn't being touched. Mantic is also good about asking the player base about why noone uses the units in question, so that helps.

    Basically, if GW wants to make a truly balanced game they have to step up their communication skills, because the constant nerf hammer is getting old really fast and they've barely hit any army i play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Except its all nerfs, all the time and thats really depressing. Particularly because i can compare it to Kings of War who also has a yearly book that they make for Tournament play, and every Clash of Kings has radically shifted the meta and usually not by nerfing stuff, but by buffing poor options to make them viable. Don't get me wrong, they nerf stuff, but only if its opressive and not just because people use it a lot (looking at the Stormravens here) whereas buffs are generally because a unit isn't being touched. Mantic is also good about asking the player base about why noone uses the units in question, so that helps.

    Basically, if GW wants to make a truly balanced game they have to step up their communication skills, because the constant nerf hammer is getting old really fast and they've barely hit any army i play.
    There have been buffs, if you consider each Codex to be buffs. And I do. Barring Tau, Codexes have always improved or at worst left a unit the same. And the armies that need buffs the most are Index armies without Codexes. And they have brought armies from the bottom of the heap to kings of the circuit. Namely, Imperial Knights and Drukhari.

    It'll be very interesting to see what will happen when all the Codexes have been released. I hope that at that time they'll start to look at what Codexes are doing the worst and why.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bicke

    Quote Originally Posted by Corsair14 View Post
    I for one find the exact same thing over and over boring as hell.
    Which is a problem...But I don't think it's the problem you're thinking of.

    40k before the internet was such a cool place.
    What are you talking about?

    I remember vividly, when the 3.5 Chaos Marine Codex came out, and the three Chaos players sitting over their Codex and deciding within an hour or two that Khorne Berzerker Rhino Rush was clearly the best thing in the book. Then they started discussing how to best use Daemonic Stature and Daemonic Chains and how to Summon Bloodthirsters. I quite clearly remember wanting to quit the game because there was nothing I could do against Khorne Berzerkers. 4th Ed. was pretty much the same thing, except now with Eldar Falcons and Banshees. These days, when I remember 3.5 and 4th on the internet, I find that other people remember the same thing; Super strong Melee units jumping out of Transports were ruining the game.

    No-one had the internet pre-5th. But, shock. Many metas still ran the same thing because numbers are numbers and maths isn't really subjective. But you're right, right? "40K before the internet was better." No it wasn't. The only way that 40K would have been better is if the people you played it with, weren't treating it as a competitive game, rather, they were treating it as a way to hang out with their mates. I guess, before the internet and the advent of online gaming, sure. You'd play 40K to hang out. But now? You can hang out with your mates even though you live in different countries. I don't need 40K to have 'fun' anymore. I play 40K because it's a game.

    Then in 5th Ed., Imperial Fists' Devastators with Tank Hunters actually had a chance against the Razor-spam and Guard Leafblowers. I remember very clearly thinking, why don't I have a 2nd unit of Tank Hunting Devastators? ...Better yet, why don't I have a third? Then spam happened. Spam wins games. Because why would anyone ever put a bad unit on the board, when they can put good units on the board? No-one told me that. I worked it out for myself. Bad units are bad. Good units are good. The end result is the same, that I put less bad units on the board. But, what if someone had told me from the start? What if there had been a Guide to Space Marines, that told me which units were worth having, and which units weren't? I could've saved a lot of time and money by simply just asking someone on the internet a question. I could've got my Mum to buy me nothing but Thunder Hammer Terminators. But I didn't...'Cause I was like...13? Very stupid. And didn't know the answers.

    Hell, my Iron Warriors friend had a calculator at the table so that he could Pythagoras the 'guesses' on his Basilisks... Oh, yeah. My friend played Iron Warriors and ran three Basilisks. Because what was stopping him?

    There may not have been net-listing. But as far as I remember, there has always been power-gaming.

    Every store had its own meta
    I know that's not true. Because my memories of competitive 3.5 and 4 match other peoples' memories of 3.5 and 4 and they don't even live in the same state, let alone same country as me.

    I actually want to paint and play minis I like that are cool rather than cheesy netlist crap.
    And I ask you, who are you to judge how or why someone put their army together?

    7th Ed. Everyone remembers 7th Ed.
    Eldar had Jetbikes as Troops. A new kid comes along and says he like Saim-Hann, and as such, buys a bunch of Jetbikes and maybe a Wraithknight 'cause it's huge and looks cool. Oh ****. That's a net-list. You're not allowed to play that. People in my meta were refusing a new kid games, and he didn't even know what he'd done wrong, except that apparently he liked the wrong models.
    Space Marines literally had a Formation designed to represent most of a Battle Company, with supporting elements. Cool. GW wants you to run a Battle Company. Oh, by the way, did you know that if you do that, you can have free Transports? WRONG. That's a Gladius and people on the internet run that and how dare you collect a fluffy army that just so happens to be really good that is also similar to what people on the internet run.

    ...You could say the same for any Formation in 7th Ed. that GW 'accidentally' made really good. Formations were designed around fluff. That's what they were literally designed for. Oh wait. The Formation is a little bit good. So you're not allowed to play it. **** you, and your hobby is bad. You're not allowed to play the Formation if it's actually good. If you like giant robots, and you think the triple Riptide Formation is cool? **** you. You're not allowed to have games because I saw it on the internet once.

    Then come to 8th Ed.
    Guardsmen spamming Infantry. That's literally what they do. Uh oh. It's what people on the internet run. So you're bad and you should feel bad, if you like Infantry Guard. Also if you like Leman Russes, you should feel bad. Also, you'll notice that your models are really cheap. So if you notice that you can form a Brigade, you should also feel bad. Because I saw it on the internet once.
    Say the same thing for any Thousand Sons' player who runs Ahriman and/or Magnus. How dare they use the coolest and most fluffy models at their disposal?
    How dare anyone run Typhus and Poxwalkers, despite that being the exact fluff. It was on the internet, you know. And despite it being clearly written into Typhus' rules that he is very clearly designed to run alongside Poxwalkers...If you actually do it though (even though GW designed it that way), then you're a jerk.
    Also, if you have a centrepiece Imperial Knight model in your Imperium army, turns out you're also a piece of ****.

    At the end of the day, I write Guides, myself.
    If I've saved anyone either time and/or money on models that don't work, then I am glad I wrote it. If my Guides have helped anyone make better choices about the game and the models they buy, then I don't care. Because very, very, very few people...
    a) Want to spend money on models that don't work, or
    b) Are happy when Models They Like turn out to be total garbage against someone else's models that They Like. Ask Drasius about Chaos Marines - and specifically Thousand Sons - and how they were before 8th Ed.

    Deciding that everyone and anyone who builds a good list, is automatically a power gamer and/or net-lister, is extremely poor form. Especially if, y'know, all's they really want is to not put total trash on the table.

    I can play a totally fluffy Deathwatch army. It's gonna be great. If it comes up against my friend's T'au army, I've already won the game. Both of us are using Models We Like. But it doesn't matter. Because what my friend likes, is ****. Anyone can build anything they want. But GW has written the game so that there are certain choices that are Just Terrible. Deathwatch isn't a net-list. But I've still already won the game and there's nothing my opponent can do about it. Because I'm Deathwatch and I can cancel Markerlight tokens anytime I want, whilst also shooting Special Ammo, and I get to re-roll to wound against anything he has on the board that's actually any good... And he's T'au and can't do anything.

    Building armies around 'What You Like' can be really awesome (e.g; Typhus and Poxwalkers), or it can be totally terrible (e.g; All Primaris Marines, all the time). But it's a total crapshoot, and the only way to know if the models you like are actually worth more than nothing, is if maybe the internet (a.k.a; Product Reviews) can help you.

    The internet told me that a place in my town tends to undercook their meat and has had a few health code violations. Thanks internet!
    Um, actually, the restaurant was better before online reviews because people just went there and ate what they liked, and if they got sick it was their fault.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-09-14 at 05:43 AM.
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