D20 Modern Equipment

[Kosmopolite]

Okay, so I'm preparing to start my first Modern campaign. I've created a bouncer/bodyguard-type character with the criminal starting career built around staying alive during combat. I've made my way through character creation fairly easily, but I'm a bit stumped on what and how much equipment to give to my character to begin with. He'll be level 1 and with a +8 Wealth bonus. I'd like the character to be useful in a party out of the box, but I'd still like to be realistic about it. Does anyone have any tips?

Thanks in advance.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Go with GURPS or SPECIAL for realism. d20 ain't suited fer no stinkin' realism.

[Kosmopolite]

D20 is what my group is playing. I just want an idea of how to equip my character in that system, since I've never used it before and the wealth system seems to be a bit vague.

[Dhavaer]

A leather jacket and a stungun are invaluable. Are you intending to use a gun?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Sorry I did that crack, but that's about the truth of it. d20 is horribly imbalanced, but is still fun, tho. BUT, houserule white phosphorous grenades as artifactlike. They can get to do silly damage.

[Zincorium]

Equipment that's usable will depend a lot on what feats you've taken, with just simple weapons proficiency you're best off with either a club or baton.

Unless you have armor proficiency, the leather jacket is a must have, and it fits perfectly with a bouncer character. Plus, it's stylish. More or less, leather jackets are the armor for characters without the armor proficiency feats, as they have no armor check penalty and the armor bonus without proficiency is the same as regular.

If you're going down the brawl tree, brass knuckles are vital equipment. Combat martial arts means you don't need 'em, though.

For ranged characters, forget all you know about guns. The game designers sure did. At room distance, an M-16 (yeah, that thing with the lethality issues) does more damage than a sawn off 12 gauge. And don't get me started on how screwed up the legality system is, it makes no sense either in game terms or compared to the real world.

At character creation, with your wealth bonus, a winchester 94 or S&W M29 is dang good for damage, and the ammo capacity and lack of automatic fire are definitely not a concern at low levels. 6 rounds is perfectly okay when you can kill anything in your CR range with 2 hits at most. And automatic fire is one of the most nerfed mechanics in the game, think carefully about who you're facing before spending the feats on it.

[Beleriphon]

D20 is what my group is playing. I just want an idea of how to equip my character in that system, since I've never used it before and the wealth system seems to be a bit vague.

If you're character can use a gun the shotgun is a good choice, as are some of the heavier pistols. I would recommend going through the book and and getting anything that you want that has a purchase DC of 15 or lower first. After that then starting looking at other things as anything 15 or over will lower your wealth bonus by 1 for each purchase, and possibly further if its expensive enough.

As it stands you could probably get yourself a leather jacket as basic armour, as well as a Colt Python and a few other odds and ends. I'd have to check the exact amounts and DCs involved since I don't have D20 Modern memorized as well as D&D, but those two things should set you well on your way to criminal mastermindery.

Go with GURPS or SPECIAL for realism. d20 ain't suited fer no stinkin' realism.

Of course its not, the book outright says as much. D20 Modern isn't meant for simulating reality, its meant for simulating action movies.

[Zincorium]

If you're character can use a gun the shotgun is a good choice

I must respectfully disagree. Shotguns are horribly, horribly nerfed in D20 modern, taking -1 to an already comparatively low damage per range increment. There will always be a better weapon for the price you can get one at.

Sawed off shotgun? .44 magnum S&W 29. Three times the range, three times the ammo capacity, and no -4 when wielding against an adjacent enemy or the reduction in damage.

Mossberg? AK. More than twice the range, 5 times the ammo capacity and easier reloading, and automatic fire for a little higher restriction rating. Same base price.

BPS? Winchester 94. More ammo, triple the range, and cheaper.

Shotguns are given a dramatically shorter stick. For no good reason.

Edit:

Another tip for the OP.

Somewhere in the equipment guide it lists tips about using (abusing?) the wealth system. They ain't bad.

First, buy everything under your wealth bonus that you might want. This includes most ammo types. Since they don't reduce your wealth at all, they're effectively free, and free is good.

Second, find the most expensive item you want. Anything up to your wealth bonus +20 is doable at character creation, but be aware it will make a huge hit to your total. Might be worth saving up, taxis are cheap.

If the most expensive thing you want is less than your wealth bonus +10, you can afford a lot more.

[Starsinger]

Go with GURPS or SPECIAL for realism. d20 ain't suited fer no stinkin' realism.

That was akin to someone asking "We're playing D&D, what spells should my third level wizard take" and someone responding, "Don't play D&D! Play Mage: The Ascension, it has a much better magic system!"

And you should definately buy some sort of vehicle, even if it really hurts your Wealth, just cuz it's cool.

[Dervag]

For ranged characters, forget all you know about guns. The game designers sure did. At room distance, an M-16 (yeah, that thing with the lethality issues) does more damage than a sawn off 12 gauge. And don't get me started on how screwed up the legality system is, it makes no sense either in game terms or compared to the real world.

Do you mean that the game designers forgot all he knows about guns, or all they know about guns?

[ray53208]

start by finding everything with a cost of 8 or less and add it to your inventory.

[Zincorium]

Do you mean that the game designers forgot all he knows about guns, or all they know about guns?

I'm assuming all they know.

For instance, did you know that the shotgun is no longer used by police because it can't seem to kill people? I sure didn't, until I read an editorial on WotC's website, Here where apparently shotguns are no longer used by police because they aren't lethal enough.

Silly me. And here I was, listening to a podcast of a police officer telling people they switched to carbines because stray pellets of buckshot can kill innocent bystanders in addition to the target.

The fact that they tell you that the PC's shouldn't be using shotguns EVER unless you as the DM don't let them have anything 'better' should let you know where the bias on their side lies.

[Lemur]

Do you have any relevant combat proficiencies? (Firearms Prof, Brawl, Armor Prof, etc.) It would help to know because that can influence the equipment you'd want. Also, if you have any idea of what the nature of the campaign is like, that has an effect on what sort of equipment would be useful to you.

One thing you want to keep in mind is that any item available for purchase can be mastercraft +1 for an increase of +3 to its wealth bonus. This is quite useful to know, because there are some low DC weapons available that can be easily bought mastercraft.

For example, you could buy a mastercraft club, cleaver, or brass knuckles. Clubs can cover things like nightsticks, as well as walking canes, and cleavers could be large combat knives or the like (before you start imagining your character with a caveman-style club and a kitchen knife )

In addition, buying certain items, such as a mastercraft leather jacket would decrease your wealth bonus as much as a normal leather jacket (with your wealth bonus as it is now). Incidently, leather jackets are all the rage these days for the modern hero.

[JackMage666]

And buy a Motorcycle. Trust me, they're not all that expensive, and the're invaluable for movement. Plus you don't get accused of stealing it.

Hehe, d20 Modern. My DM had us investigate the murder of a billionaire. When we went to his house, the exotic pets were left untouched. Being the greedy man I was, I took them and sold them for good money (or, Wealth increase). I bought a nice, fixer up house, a truck, a motorcycle, and spend the downtime fixing my place up. Good times.

[Kosmopolite]

Wow, thanks for all the quick replies!

He's got Brawl, Simple Weapons Proficiency, Improved Damage Threshold and Lightning Reflexes and Cold Resistance (I had the job of bouncer in mind). I pretty much had melee in mind to begin with, thinking about his career as a bouncer and heading towards the bodyguard prestige.

So I should be thinking about brass knuckles, a leather jacket and maybe some other kind of weapon, then?


Also, on an unrelated note (but for the same character), I was thinking of having him be into gambling, but I was wondering how good/often used the mechanic is.

Thanks again in advance.

[Were-Sandwich]

I think CoC d20 did shotguns better. They do 3dx within 10 ft, 2dx out to 20 ft, 1dx further out than that, where x is determined by bore/guage. Some of them do 3d10 within ten feet, which is enough to drop pretty much any bar-room malcontent.

[DeathQuaker]

Of course its not, the book outright says as much. D20 Modern isn't meant for simulating reality, its meant for simulating action movies.

Exactly. And while the gun stats don't reflect "reality" very well, they reflect how guns perform in movies (in regards to how they affect the heroes) well enough.

I couldn't care less about how d20 Modern's gun stats compare to real life, or other games, even. The stats do what they are supposed to do for the kind of game it is (and if the GM feels differently, altering an item's stat block is easy enough, and therefore not worth all the complaining).

Wow, thanks for all the quick replies!

He's got Brawl, Simple Weapons Proficiency, Improved Damage Threshold and Lightning Reflexes and Cold Resistance (I had the job of bouncer in mind). I pretty much had melee in mind to begin with, thinking about his career as a bouncer and heading towards the bodyguard prestige.

So I should be thinking about brass knuckles, a leather jacket and maybe some other kind of weapon, then?

Sounds good, and suitable for your character. An extendable baton might also work well.

IIRC, you'll eventually need personal firearms proficiency for your Advanced Class. You could either buy a gun now and then simulate earning the feat by having your character practice it at a gun range, or have your character go to a gun range (or get training by his organization) and then purchase a gun later.

As to what kind, I'd just pick one whose stats suit you. And again, that can wait till later.

Otherwise, as to what other equipment... just think about if you were that kind of person, what would you own? Where do you live? How do you get around the city? Is the bouncer job the only job you have?

Most people have cell phones these days. Useful little buggers, cell phones.

Vests, belts, carrying cases... those things can come in useful... especially the vests that allow you to conceal things easily.

And if I can afford it, I always like to give my chars at least one piece of equipment that isn't necessarily useful gear, but helps build character flavor. Does he wear a cross or some other icon around his neck? If he gambles, does he always carry his own dice/pack of cards? (And even "flavor" items can come in handy... "Wait! Here's Bob's class ring! He may have left it here to let us know he's still alive! Let's go find him!")

Also, on an unrelated note (but for the same character), I was thinking of having him be into gambling, but I was wondering how good/often used the mechanic is.

Depends entirely upon the setting and the GM--and also, possibly, on your own initiative (are you the type to challenge a guy to settle something through a game of dice or something). I'd ask him, or if you really feel it's appropriate for your character, drop a couple skill points into it, but don't build it up further unless you know you're going to get to use it.

Also... one thing I've observed about d20 Modern... characters don't really come into their own until about 5th level. It's a neat system, but focuses on slow character building.... so don't expect your char to perform miracles out of the box. At this point, it sounds like you've already built a decent character who will be useful in combat, which is what you set out to do, so anything else you decide to do should just help you have fun with the character.

[Kosmopolite]

Okay, firstly, thanks for all the great advice! I chose to have a leather jacket, a hip holster, cell phone and a pack of cards. My weapons are: brass knuckles, a metal baton and a Beretta 92F. I also went with two ranks in Gamble, giving me +4 including my +2 Wis modifier (that's right, right?).

I'm a little confused about the damage brass knuckles cause, though. Most weapons have a damage rating, but they "increase the base damage dealt by an unarmed strike by +1 and turn the damage into lethal damage". Okay, I get the difference between lethal and non-lethal, but I can't find a number for an unarmed/non-lethal strike. Am I right in thinking it is 1d3 (p136) plus my strength bonus and one for the knuckles?

Thanks in advance.

[Zincorium]

Okay, firstly, thanks for all the great advice! I chose to have a leather jacket, a hip holster, cell phone and a pack of cards. My weapons are: brass knuckles, a metal baton and a Beretta 92F. I also went with two ranks in Gamble, giving me +4 including my +2 Wis modifier (that's right, right?).

I'm a little confused about the damage brass knuckles cause, though. Most weapons have a damage rating, but they "increase the base damage dealt by an unarmed strike by +1 and turn the damage into lethal damage". Okay, I get the difference between lethal and non-lethal, but I can't find a number for an unarmed/non-lethal strike. Am I right in thinking it is 1d3 (p136) plus my strength bonus and one for the knuckles?

Thanks in advance.

Normally, unarmed strikes do 1d3 nonlethal (it's in the 'normal' entry under the brawl feat if you need a reference).

However, brass knuckles only work if you have the brawl feat, it's at the beginning of their description. They change the normally nonlethal damage from brawl to lethal and add an additional 1.

Realize also that unless you're using combat martial arts, you provoke an attack of opportunity whenever you attack and do not threaten any squares around you.

So if you want to take on a guy with a knife with your brass knuckles, don't. Get a knife of your own. Or a club. Or learn actual martial arts.

[Kosmopolite]

Yes. I do have brawl. That's why I was confused, as some of the data is scattered for this particular item.

[leperkhaun]

Combat martial arts if you are planning on brawling so you dont provoke Aoo.

if you plan on doing alot of melee then getting defensive martial arts -> Unbalance opponent and possibly elusive target.

Unbalance opponent is really nice in modern games with supernatural creatures since alot of them tend to have really high str scores.

Just make sure you pick up personal firearms and carry a pistol, or at least just have a pistol handy.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Combat martial arts if you are planning on brawling so you dont provoke Aoo.

if you plan on doing alot of melee then getting defensive martial arts -> Unbalance opponent and possibly elusive target.

Unbalance opponent is really nice in modern games with supernatural creatures since alot of them tend to have really high str scores.

Just make sure you pick up personal firearms and carry a pistol, or at least just have a pistol handy.

Combat Martial Arts and Brawl NEVER STACK and cannot be used in conjunction at all. So using brawl is very dangerous but nonlethal stuns for 1 round even if they pass their save it can be effective.

Unbalance Opponent is over-powered. I had to increase my BBEG's level (he was already CR 25...) just to give him Weapon Finesse or he would have been useless.

[Kosmopolite]

Wait, I don't understand. Where has the Attack of Oportunity come from?

[Zincorium]

Wait, I don't understand. Where has the Attack of Oportunity come from?

Page 135 of the D20 Modern core rulebook.

Or, in game terms, your opponent shanking you while you try and make a knife fight into a boxing match.

[Crow]

Exactly. And while the gun stats don't reflect "reality" very well, they reflect how guns perform in movies (in regards to how they affect the heroes) well enough.

I couldn't care less about how d20 Modern's gun stats compare to real life, or other games, even. The stats do what they are supposed to do for the kind of game it is (and if the GM feels differently, altering an item's stat block is easy enough, and therefore not worth all the complaining).

I agree.

Of course everybody on the internet is an "expert" on firearms, and perfectly willing to give you the full list of their credentials, and what they think the system should look like.

Meanwhile the people who really have to deal with this stuff in real life, content in the knowledge that a game will never be able to fully simulate the reality of such things, are perfectly willing to put reality on the shelf and just have fun.

[skywalker]

I agree.

Of course everybody on the internet is an "expert" on firearms, and perfectly willing to give you the full list of their credentials, and what they think the system should look like.

Meanwhile the people who really have to deal with this stuff in real life, content in the knowledge that a game will never be able to fully simulate the reality of such things, are perfectly willing to put reality on the shelf and just have fun.

But don't you think maybe they could've gotten something as simple as shotguns right? I can understand them not being able to simulate hundreds of different martial arts techniques perfectly. That's fine. But a shotgun simply IS better than a rifle at 30ft or closer. The article that zinrcorium linked to was utterly wrong. The rules fall down there, because in nearly every scenario within the shotgun's range increment, you would want a shotgun. This is not simulated AT ALL.

While CofC did a good job with shotguns, I would have to say that, no, shotguns probably DON'T do more damage than a high powered rifle(tho I'm not sure the M16 counts). Instead, IMHO, a shotgun should have a 19/20 crit range inside 30 ft, and/or a bonus(+1 or 2) to hit within that distance. Finally, the -4 penalty should not apply.

My advice is to ask your DM to houserule shotguns into the usefulness they deserve, and then buy one. General game play advice for modern, don't bite off more than you can chew.

[Crow]

But don't you think maybe they could've gotten something as simple as shotguns right? I can understand them not being able to simulate hundreds of different martial arts techniques perfectly. That's fine. But a shotgun simply IS better than a rifle at 30ft or closer. The article that zinrcorium linked to was utterly wrong. The rules fall down there, because in nearly every scenario within the shotgun's range increment, you would want a shotgun. This is not simulated AT ALL.

While CofC did a good job with shotguns, I would have to say that, no, shotguns probably DON'T do more damage than a high powered rifle(tho I'm not sure the M16 counts). Instead, IMHO, a shotgun should have a 19/20 crit range inside 30 ft, and/or a bonus(+1 or 2) to hit within that distance. Finally, the -4 penalty should not apply.

My advice is to ask your DM to houserule shotguns into the usefulness they deserve, and then buy one. General game play advice for modern, don't bite off more than you can chew.

I don't think you really have any idea how much energy a rifle dumps into the target, especially at close range. Also, not all rifle cartridges are equal, and not all perform the same once they hit a target. I don't really feel like getting into a lengthy discussion regarding ballistics performance and wound profiles. And I won't even touch the disparity in performance once the target puts on even the lightest of body armor.

All I am saying is that D20 Modern is a game. It should be treated as such. If you want more verisimilitude from a system, go play another system. It does what it was intended to do. Sure they could have put in more mechanics to accurately reflect "real life", but most attempts are clunky, and more often than not don't succeed at what they try to do.

No game is going to simulate a real-life gunfight, so just play to have fun.

Also, I should say I havn't played D20 Modern yet, but we plan to soon so I've been going over the rules pretty thouroghly. I get a feeling of almost "Shadowrun Lite" from it. The mechanics are simple, and look pretty fast. As such, you can't expect too much "Hi-res" performance from a simulation standpoint.

[Kosmopolite]

Page 135 of the D20 Modern core rulebook.

Or, in game terms, your opponent shanking you while you try and make a knife fight into a boxing match.

Great, thanks (esp. for taking the trouble of finding a page reference). Is there a feat or something to not have to cause an AOO?

[Dhavaer]

Great, thanks (esp. for taking the trouble of finding a page reference). Is there a feat or something to not have to cause an AOO?

Combat Martial Arts.

[Zincorium]

My main argument about their treatment for shotguns is that they are game mechanics-wise pointless. Like I demonstrated, for every price range there is a weapon that is obviously mechanically better, and there is no niche that shotguns occupy that do make them a reasonable choice.

Add that to the fact that technically a shotgun slug is verifiably more lethal than a .44 magnum within close range and wizards doesn't have a leg to stand on. Hell, if their main benefit, from what the article they had said, is to intimidate people, give it a bonus to intimidate. Or something.

A house-rule I've used to give them a niche is to make it so when using the point blank shot feat, the feat grants an additional +2 to hit and damage. Makes it so there is a point to them, but it doesn't make it the best choice for absolutely everyone. Also disallowed non-lethal ammunition for all but those and low powered handguns, with a high-velocity round almost anything can be lethal and shotguns rounds can propel enough soft material to make it worthwhile.