Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Landis963]

I just read newspost. Apparently Thunt is now transgender.
He's now a woman. Didn't he have a wife?
Ok I may sound uneducated, I'm from western Europe, where one being transgender is pretty much a taboo... But from many questions I have the biggest one: What kind of a name is Ellipsis?

She has a wife, yes. Obviously some things about the relationship will change as a result of the transition, but other things (most things, hopefully) will not change. As for what kind of name "Ellipsis" is, it is the kind of name that can be easily shortened to "Elli."

[Draconi Redfir]

not sure how needed this thread is since there hasn't been an update yet, and the old one is only locked for reveiw, might open again, not sure.

reguardless, i don't know why or how, but i could see a possible outcome where Kore becomes the one to take the Axe to Hell. he's likely much higher level then the GAP, and could probably go in now rather then needing to wait to gain more experiance. he IS pretty durable from what we've seen.

that as is though feels like a bit of a cop-out for what would otherwise be the main plot. if that happens at all, i imagine it won't happen for a good long while.

[mucat]

What kind of a name is Ellipsis?

It's Ellipsis's name.

</josephheller>

[Dragonus45]

Uhhh, did we get permission for the new thread?

It's certainly what I think of as a "hippy name", but I assume it probably has some more personal meaning in context. Either way the news that her wife's family is on board was good to hear.

[Traab]

I was trying to get away from the whole discussion that shut down the last thread. Which is why there wouldnt be a problem with starting this one as it very much so is not about the violation(s) that got the last one locked for review.

[Willie the Duck]

I just read newspost. Apparently Thunt is now transgender.
He's now a woman. Didn't he have a wife?
Ok I may sound uneducated, I'm from western Europe, where one being transgender is pretty much a taboo... But from many questions I have the biggest one: What kind of a name is Ellipsis?

The only part of Thunt's announcement of being transgender that is relevant to the comic is that we get to change what we call the author, so that's all I'll comment on. Ellipsis is, in the country/culture Thunt comes from, not a normative name. It's "made up." More power to 'em. Honestly, if I were to make a webcomic, I'd probably make it under an outright pseudonym.


Anyways, as to the comic -- I too am unclear on what the current goals were. They were going to rescue Kin, but they (the goblins) are clearly not in a position to do that. I'm not sure a clear next step was elucidated before they ran into the controllable golem and Kore. Not sure what I think will or should happen. I'm frankly rather unimpressed with Kore as primary villain, so I wouldn't mind if he was dispatched for good at this point in the storyline (to focus more on the axe/other plots), but I suspect that that wasn't the original plan.

[Traab]

The only part of Thunt's announcement of being transgender that is relevant to the comic is that we get to change what we call the author, so that's all I'll comment on. Ellipsis is, in the country/culture Thunt comes from, not a normative name. It's "made up." More power to 'em. Honestly, if I were to make a webcomic, I'd probably make it under an outright pseudonym.


Anyways, as to the comic -- I too am unclear on what the current goals were. They were going to rescue Kin, but they (the goblins) are clearly not in a position to do that. I'm not sure a clear next step was elucidated before they ran into the controllable golem and Kore. Not sure what I think will or should happen. I'm frankly rather unimpressed with Kore as primary villain, so I wouldn't mind if he was dispatched for good at this point in the storyline (to focus more on the axe/other plots), but I suspect that that wasn't the original plan.

Yeah honestly its kinda interesting with Kore. He was built up to be this unstoppable monster of a paladin, murdering everything he sees as evil (which is basically everything). Armies couldnt stop him, blah blah blah. However, it seems to me that while he may have earned that reputation, it is based on perspective. To non class level having npcs, he is terrifying, because yeah, he can just stomp through a "goblin warband" like they are nothing because they are generally geared for low level parties to fight. However, as we have seen, his gear is garbage, stat wise, and the adventure groups seem to get good magic gear fast. Suddenly, by level 4-5, its actually possible to face him as a group and win. His rep was based on taking down swarms of nameless goobers with no class abilities, no gear adding to their stats, nothing. But to someone like the GAP, or even I bet, goblinslayer and saral caine if both were alive and in level appropriate gear, kore isnt an invincible foe. About the only thing that makes him a threat is his current level and the bonuses that provides when fighting low level people in a setting thats oddly setup with low average levels but powerful magical gear.

If I can make a comparison to World of Warcraft. Back in the original version days, my shaman was level 50ish and I felt like picking a pvp fight. So I went to this low to mid level area and started fighting the guards to draw out other players. The mobs in the zone were one shot wonders to me, the guards barely more than that. But then a group of players who were more or less level appropriate to the zone showed up, and suddenly I was in a tough fight. Half their spells were resisted, half their swings automatically missed due to the level gap. But by working together they were able to survive long enough to hurt me bad. If they had been mobs, none of them would have given me exp to kill, but the difference between player characters wearing good gear (for their level) and mobs and npcs was very clear. To the town I assaulted i was a nightmare made flesh, their guards couldnt stop me outside of me fighting them in massive swarms, I could wipe out the merchants and quest givers with relative ease. To the surrounding areas monsters I was utterly unstoppable. But to other players I was a tough encounter it was possible to beat. Thats what we are dealing with when it comes to Kore. To npcs and mobs he is that nightmare, his legend forms from them. To players who have survived long enough to get their legs under them, he is a VERY tough fight, but one that may be winnable.

[Vinyadan]

The terrain also was important for Kore's victories. In the troll's cave, he blocks the only exit. On the bridge, he has the advantage of range. And, in general, there had been no time to prepare the terrain against him. Let's assume that he falls into a hole: what is he going to do? Maybe he has something in his backpack for such a situation, but he didn't use it after his fight with Kin.

It's true, Goblinslayer would make for a fine enemy. Let's assume that, being a ranger, he surprises him in a forest. He can move faster than Kore, so he could use spot and hide, and keep himself covered while sniping at him and change position after each shot. He could also goad Kore into a hole and then throw some burning fuel into the hole. He could goad Kore into a cave, leave through a secondary exit, and collapse all ways out, so that he starves. If Kore only relies on sight, even just a smoke bomb could put him in danger.

I wonder, did Kore go through the room of opposites?

[Traab]

The terrain also was important for Kore's victories. In the troll's cave, he blocks the only exit. On the bridge, he has the advantage of range. And, in general, there had been no time to prepare the terrain against him. Let's assume that he falls into a hole: what is he going to do? Maybe he has something in his backpack for such a situation, but he didn't use it after his fight with Kin.

It's true, Goblinslayer would make for a fine enemy. Let's assume that, being a ranger, he surprises him in a forest. He can move faster than Kore, so he could use spot and hide, and keep himself covered while sniping at him and change position after each shot. He could also goad Kore into a hole and then throw some burning fuel into the hole. He could goad Kore into a cave, leave through a secondary exit, and collapse all ways out, so that he starves. If Kore only relies on sight, even just a smoke bomb could put him in danger.

I wonder, did Kore go through the room of opposites?

The thing is, with his sheer volume of armor (normally) its possible that goblinslayer would have a very hard time hurting kore at all, unless his self created dryad wood bow or whatever it might be called has some intrinsic magic that lets it penetrate steel easier. That was the big issue the GAP dealt with for their first big confrontation. None of them could penetrate his armor, even complains in a berserker rage with his +1 sword. It took forgath with some SERIOUSLY boosted gear to break through. Like, a +7 axe stuck to a 2h weapon that had its own bonuses etc etc etc. I may have overlooked that part. They have an advantage NOW because kores gear is a wreck. His shield is gone, he has one axe, his armor is twisted and partially shredded, etc. On the other hand, forgath did all that to him solo. It was honestly a close fight that, had he not been shocked at the horrifying sight of kores head, he might have killed the paladin there. So its hard to judge really.

[Dragonus45]

Forgath caught Kore in what was probably the worst he had been feeling in a long long time after a very rough fight with potentially low resources and a special combo that gave him an almost game breaking advantage. And it was still a fairly even fight. That said Kore is starting to feel played out as an antagonist, and I don't see him sticking around past this arc unless he takes a long break from the spotlight in story time.

[Traab]

Forgath caught Kore in what was probably the worst he had been feeling in a long long time after a very rough fight with potentially low resources and a special combo that gave him an almost game breaking advantage. And it was still a fairly even fight. That said Kore is starting to feel played out as an antagonist, and I don't see him sticking around past this arc unless he takes a long break from the spotlight in story time.

Forgath faced kore at just barely below his best. He had to lay on hands himself once at the end of his fight with the GAP and aside from a scratchy throat, was fine. Forgath DID have the huge game unbalancing gear disparity, as it had been clearly setup by our dm/comic writer specifically to counter everything kore had, but that basically offset the game breakingly huge LEVEL disparity. And Kore, the boogeyman of this world, fought forgath to a near draw, a level 4-5 cleric. He won the fight due to a lucky break, but it cost him like 2/3 of his gear to do it. But yeah, I expect kore to either die, or be transformed into a huge evil demonic creature or something. Like how the axe was broken, now kore will be and the horror he contains will be set loose. Something like that.

[Vinyadan]

I still wonder if Minmax should have just charged in, grabbed Kore, and thrown him off the bridge.

[Traab]

I still wonder if Minmax should have just charged in, grabbed Kore, and thrown him off the bridge.

Ugh, then we might have gotten stuck with klikore.

[Draconi Redfir]

New comic is up

[Traab]

Hmm, how many rounds are we seeing here? Its hard to judge. I wonder if complains could save a turn by standing there doing nothing? I also wonder if the next step is tossing the magic helmet from goblin to goblin trying to keep things moving.

[Draconi Redfir]

my guess is we've only seen 1 1/2 rounds. maybe 2 at most.

round 1. golem punches core, kore flies and hits the wall, spends his round recovering.

round 2. golem charging towards Kore, Kore preparing for it. I feel like running that distance would only take a move action, so i don't think that round is entirely over yet.

[John Cribati]

Round 3 should be everyone Goblin-piling onto Kore like they did on the bridge. Round 4 shouls be a grapple with the statue. If it holds, Round 5 the helmet deactivates, Kore is stuck.

[Traab]

The downside of not being able to see hit points is we have no idea how much damage the golem is capable of doing. For all we know it basically did 1 hp of damage and had a knockback effect. Or Kore just gained a few new ribs... if you count pieces. We can guess and say that hit did notable damage going by Kore's reaction to the hit, and also by seeing this thing is stupidly heavy so it had a lot of mass behind it going by the crater in the wall and how even its steps are breaking the floor. My personal theory is that, if the golem wasnt limited by rounds, they could defeat kore with it. But we may have to see what his counter attack does. If it damages the golem noticeably, they may be in trouble. And yeah, I love the grapple idea if they could pull it off. Too bad they lost their best shot at it going for the cheap shot instead.

If I had to guess, what will happen here is kore fights the golem till it stops moving, then when they go to switch users he will figure out how it works and the fight will get more deadly for the GAP.

[Starbuck_II]

Last goblin to use the Helmet should have Golem bear hug/hold in wrestle move (that way unless Kore can lift a Golem) to pin Kore.

But that would be less drama.

[Anteros]

The downside of not being able to see hit points is we have no idea how much damage the golem is capable of doing. For all we know it basically did 1 hp of damage and had a knockback effect. Or Kore just gained a few new ribs... if you count pieces. We can guess and say that hit did notable damage going by Kore's reaction to the hit, and also by seeing this thing is stupidly heavy so it had a lot of mass behind it going by the crater in the wall and how even its steps are breaking the floor. My personal theory is that, if the golem wasnt limited by rounds, they could defeat kore with it. But we may have to see what his counter attack does. If it damages the golem noticeably, they may be in trouble. And yeah, I love the grapple idea if they could pull it off. Too bad they lost their best shot at it going for the cheap shot instead.

If I had to guess, what will happen here is kore fights the golem till it stops moving, then when they go to switch users he will figure out how it works and the fight will get more deadly for the GAP.

At the end of the day does it really matter? I doubt we've done all this narrative buildup concerning Kore for him to be killed by a random dungeon gimmick. We know he's going to live through this fight because it makes no narrative sense to kill him here.

[John Cribati]

This isn't exactly a narrative about which one can consistently make an argument appealing to the sense of.. Sense.

[Morgaln]

It made no narrative sense for Chief to die when he did, since he had no less than three plots going on (overcoming his cowardice, coming to term with being the chief, the reason Saral Caine's belt had the same symbol as chief's crown). That's more than any of the other goblins had. Narratively, it should have been Thaco who died on the bridge; his story was over after Brassmoon, and he has been tagging along with no real purpose ever since.

As such I agree with John Cribati; narrative sense doesn't seem to be high on the list of priorities for this story.

[Vinyadan]

Last goblin to use the Helmet should have Golem bear hug/hold in wrestle move (that way unless Kore can lift a Golem) to pin Kore.

But that would be less drama.

Couldn't they have done that from the start, and then had the golem walk underwater? Or is the water far away now?

[Anteros]

It made no narrative sense for Chief to die when he did, since he had no less than three plots going on (overcoming his cowardice, coming to term with being the chief, the reason Saral Caine's belt had the same symbol as chief's crown). That's more than any of the other goblins had. Narratively, it should have been Thaco who died on the bridge; his story was over after Brassmoon, and he has been tagging along with no real purpose ever since.

As such I agree with John Cribati; narrative sense doesn't seem to be high on the list of priorities for this story.

Chief was not central to the main plot like Kore seems to be. Once Complains learned the truth about his father's past Chief's role was over. Sure, Chief was still interacting with people and growing as a character, but that's just good writing. It doesn't mean his plot wasn't over. Plus Chief had to die for several current plot points to work.

You're right that Thaco's plot is also basically over, so I wouldn't be surprised if he bites it next. I would be surprised if any of the Goblins except Complains actually makes it back to their clan.

[Morgaln]

Chief was not central to the main plot like Kore seems to be. Once Complains learned the truth about his father's past Chief's role was over. Sure, Chief was still interacting with people and growing as a character, but that's just good writing. It doesn't mean his plot wasn't over. Plus Chief had to die for several current plot points to work.

You're right that Thaco's plot is also basically over, so I wouldn't be surprised if he bites it next. I would be surprised if any of the Goblins except Complains actually makes it back to their clan.

What is the main plot in your eyes? Complains doesn't have a plot at all, so if only characters central to the main plot are supposed to live, he should have been dead years ago. If you think the Axe of Prissan is the main plot, then only Ears and Kore are central to that. For anything else that is going on, Kore is not important.
I also disagree that Chief's role was over. He didn't have a role, he had a character arc. And that character arc was not completed. I'm well aware that the meta-reason chief had to die was because a cleric would have trivialized the lol-pearl trap and there would have been no reason to turn Fumbles into a teller. But if you have to kill off a main character just because the power set you gave them would invalidate your planned story, that's bad writing.

[Anteros]

The main plot is the Goblin's journey back to their clan with the intent to protect them. Complains has a plot in the sense that he's the main character of the comic along with Minmax. Ultimately, the whole "gather power and protect your Goblin clan" thing is about him. Ear's and Kore's stuff is important, but not the core of the story.

[Vinyadan]

I think that Chief really had to die because it was Complain's destiny to become Chief, since he is the main character.

About plots and character arcs, Brassmoon pretty much cleared all of the immediate plot points the GAP had going. The "let's head back home" plot point never really struck me as relevant. There are two reasons for this: we never saw this place, and we don't know anyone who lives there. So we can't feel the GAP's desire. The GAP also doesn't know that Kore is getting there, so there isn't a "we must raise the alarm" factor (or, if it were there, it would be a disconnect between the reader and the main characters).

There's also the affair of Complains being something of an exile. I wonder if and how it will come up.

Chief stopped being a coward when he pretended to have a shattered spine. So, from that arc was complete at that point. And I think it was done in a fitting way: Chief was detached from the other goblins in that he knew he was lacking. He sacrificed himself without even explaining what he was doing, so he didn't expose himself to the judgement of a group whose standards he felt he didn't meet -- but, this way, he went well above those standards. Also, this way no one pestered him, which is also in-character.

Plotwise, Ears didn't have anything going on until the ax broke. Thac0 already had defeated his boogeyman. Vorpal still had to recover his mind, but there was no hint of how, when, or if this could even happen. Complains had his sworn revenge upon MM, which I don't think ever was very effective as a plot device: who expected those two to kill each other, when their party members were completely opposed to it? Maybe in the future there will be some prerequisites, but that hasn't been the case since the fight at the war camp. Chief had nothing going. Yes, there was that general mystery of the belt on Saral Caine, but I don't think it was that relevant.

[Morgaln]

I disagree on Complains being the main character. Actually, I made a post about this very subject on the Goblins forum just a few weeks ago. I'll copy it here for debate.

They're [note: the goblins other than Fumbles] providing background noise because they are background characters; and not just to this page but to the whole plot ever since they escaped from Brassmoon City. Since then, the story has revolved around Minmax as our prime protagonist. Other characters only matter in how they relate to him.

Thaco's story arc ended with his victory over GoblinSlayer. After that, he just tagged along with no purpose. He's not even interacting with anyone in a meaningful way. From a narrative point of view, it should have been him who died on the bridge, not Chief.
Big Ears purpose is the carrier of the McGuffin. Only that McGuffin has nothing to do with Minmax' story and so it has been dropped like a hot coal, even though the danger and urgency behind it should supercede everything else.
Complains never had a story to begin with. He was, and is, just there to be contrary, about everyone and everything. He's supposed to be a foil to Minmax, but he's so one-dimensional, it doesn't really do anything.

Fumbles, on the other hand, has taken over the position as "monster Minmax builds a relationship with" from Kin. Thus, he has been moved to the forefront of the story, with much of it revolving around him and his relation to Minmax.

If you look at what has happened ever since the bridge, Fumbles and Minmax are the only ones ever driving the story forward:
It's Fumbles who decides to go back to help Chief and attack Kore.
It's Fumbles who solves the riddle of the door.
It's Fumbles who triggers the rope trap.
It's Minmax who chooses the golem's door.
It's Minmax who triggers the fight that destroys the axe.
It's Fumbles who has the idea to turn someone into the teller.
It's Fumbles who becomes the teller.
It's Minmax who saves Fumbles during the ritual.
It's Minmax who wants to save Kin and Fumbles is the only one who supports him.
It's Fumbles who triggers the glass stair trap.
It's Fumbles who tries on the golem helmet.

The other goblins help dealing with the effects, but they're never doing anything out of their own volition. They're just kinda there and talking a lot.
If I thought Hunt Ellipsis [note: the original post was before the transgender anouncement] capable of that kind of sophistication, I'd take this as meta-commentary on players who try to plan ahead as opposed to those who just charge head-on into everything without thinking of what might happen.

[Vinyadan]

I personally see Fumbles as a phenomenally noisy background character, because he doesn't really fit within group dynamics; the goblins have a problem, and he comes up with a solution, but we don't see how he got there. No doubt that MM is the main character of his own story, though, and that his story supersedes Complains's.

[Keltest]

Complain's story is a question of identity. Is he chief? Is he a leader? Is he even a goblin, or is he a demon now? And those aren't questions he can really actively chase, he just has to live his life and figure it out. So he still has a narrative going on, but its not really going to be the focus of an arc, because its not proactive.