Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[tomaO2]

Kore (and his frankly lack of actual personality) is actually one of the weaker parts of this story, as far as I am concerned, so this doesn't really sell me. However, I'm sure you didn't mean this guy is really just Kore. I might check it out, although trading in Thunt's dismemberment complex for rape is a lateral move at best.

I meant that they are both extremely focused on (and good at) killing monsters, wear full body concealing armour, and don't have much of a personality. With little in the way of conversations.

I enjoyed the episode for the extremely competent way he took down the monsters, the dark visuals, and I really liked the soundtrack during the action. The opening scene of Goblin Slayer coming in got a strong reaction from me as I watched him kill off those two goblins. Which felt similar to me as the way Kore fights, extremely cautious and tactical, but focuses more on ambuses than straight up fighting. The guy is crazy prepared for various situations.

Not to my knowledge. Nor update on whether the animated version is getting any traction. I'm not here to cast judgment, Thunt seems to have some real life crap going on. But I think for the time being one should just expect the comic, under its current update schedule, is what can be managed at the time being.

Okay, thanks. I really thought it would be done by now. Didn't he finish the card designs? There should be some news on this...

That Goblin Slayer anime has all the edge of a serrated razor, and about the same amount of depth.

It's the first episode, and it's their to show you that, yea, bad things happen, so don't be surprised, but things have been calmer afterwards. Episode two goes into his tragic back story, and the way that Goblin Slayer is seen by the other adventurers (a weirdo). Episode three is more light hearted, it has him join an adventuring party, who can play off his personality, and it even spends a good 5 minutes on eating delicious food. Episode 4 isn't out yet, but it's going to be mostly action again.

Yeah uhh, that was more than a bit grimmer and nastier than I like my anime. Even if in all honesty it feels like a "realistic" example of what happens to newbie adventurers attacking evil humanoids. But then, if I want realism I wouldnt be watching anime. It reminds me of the epic rap battle of history between j r r tolkien and george martin "We all know the world is full of chance and anarchy, so yes its true to life for characters to die randomly, but NEWS FLASH the genres called FANTASY! Its meant to be UNrealistic you myopic manatee!"

Another reason he's like Kore is because the fighting is extremely brutal.

That said, the adventurers were throwaways to show off that bad things happen. The new ones show up in episode 3 and they will be sticking around until the end of the season. It's a lot more light hearted than the opener would indicate.

That said, why are you a fan of Goblins? This story is a grim fest.

[John Cribati]

It's a lot more light hearted than the opener would indicate.

So either it's setting up for even more GrimDark later on down the road, or 75% of the first episode was completely pointless, then?

[Draconi Redfir]

New page by the way

not much to say other then idle is a badass.

[Ibrinar]

That said, why are you a fan of Goblins? This story is a grim fest.

I am still a bit mystified that people think that way. Goblins has some dark parts but never really dwells on them it is mostly a pretty normal adventure story. See the current page someone gets eaten but you just see some light wounds in the first panel, edgy stuff revels in things like that.

[John Cribati]

That said, why are you a fan of Goblins? This story is a grim fest.

Not really. Goblins is definitely a gore-fest, but it tends to stay relatively light in tone. It also showed me a lot of things the story had to offer before it ever started bathing in its character's blood.

[Willie the Duck]

Okay, thanks. I really thought it would be done by now. Didn't he finish the card designs? There should be some news on this...

But there isn't, and that's par for the course.
Look, I'm trying to be diplomatic here. Thunt has issues with reliability. He's also got issues in general. If you gave him money with the expectation of product, you probably should consider it a gift to him at this point. We've probably all had friends in real life like that, who have bigger plans than they can deliver, but never quite get around to acknowledging that they failed at the endeavor. If you want to get angry with Thunt, there's an entire website dedicated to raging at webcomic authors, with a page for Goblins.

That said, why are you a fan of Goblins? This story is a grim fest.

I am still a bit mystified that people think that way. Goblins has some dark parts but never really dwells on them it is mostly a pretty normal adventure story. See the current page someone gets eaten but you just see some light wounds in the first panel, edgy stuff revels in things like that.

Not really. Goblins is definitely a gore-fest, but it tends to stay relatively light in tone. It also showed me a lot of things the story had to offer before it ever started bathing in its character's blood.

Goblins vacillates between gore-gilled lightheartedness (kind of a Futurama-esque level of 'lots of violence, not taken very seriously') and teary-eyed characters mentally checked-out while realizing the utter depravity of the universe at large. There are long swaths of the comic that are downright wrenching.

But there's very little edgy grim-dark. That's a different genre. One that ep. 1 of that Goblin Slayer definitely has. I'd have to watch more before I'd make any judgments on that series as a whole, but I'd definitely say there're plenty of room between it and Goblins where someone might like one but not the other.

[Traab]

Plus there is a difference between comic panels of someone being beaten to death, and watching someone on video being beaten to death, hearing the cracks of bones, the screams of agony, etc etc etc.

[Lord Torath]

New page by the way

not much to say other then idle is a badass.

Well, she did just lose the dragon/unicorn/house that Forgath painted on her hip...

[tomaO2]

So either it's setting up for even more GrimDark later on down the road, or 75% of the first episode was completely pointless, then?

I'm not sure what you mean by pointless. It shows that goblins are considered to not be a big deal by newbie adventuers, but that they can be pretty strong, and if you don't take them seriously you die. It shows that goblins are sick, depraved bastards that kill without hesitation, capture women and rape them, making it feel carthic when they get slaughtered (these goblins don't actually have females, so they need to rape in order to have goblin babies).

It shows a good fight sequence with Goblin Slayer.

From where are you getting 75% of the episode is pointless? That's like saying 75% of book 1 of Goblins was pointless because 90% of the characters die.

As far as I know, things don't get much more grimdark than they do in the first episode. The book has a second party get wiped out but you don't know anyone in that party, a scene of goblins using human meat shields, some attempted rapes, and the aftermath shown of various people that have been captured, but there is a fair amount written so far, and we haven't had any major characters get murdered off since the opener.

I am still a bit mystified that people think that way. Goblins has some dark parts but never really dwells on them it is mostly a pretty normal adventure story. See the current page someone gets eaten but you just see some light wounds in the first panel, edgy stuff revels in things like that.

Idle was the character eaten though....

Idle is a bad example. She has to die every day in order to live. That's extremely messed up. Also, it's more typical for permanent wounds to show up, like Forgath being part Kilk, or Complain's broken arm, or Fumbles having letters carved into his skull, or that big lizard guy that was turned into soup after getting touched by that monster with the fingers. Injuries look worse too, because they treat them as simple hit point reductions, so people can survive a lot more things in Goblins then they do in Goblin Slayer.

Plus there is a difference between comic panels of someone being beaten to death, and watching someone on video being beaten to death, hearing the cracks of bones, the screams of agony, etc etc etc.

I'm personally more bothered by the gore in Goblins, than listening to people being killed in Goblin Slayer, so I didn't see any of that as a big deal. *shrugs*

That said, Thunt is pushing really hard for an animation of Goblins. So we may end up seeing all the things that you are upset about with Goblin Slayer anyway, and the gore of Goblins will still be worse, or are you going to skip the animation due to not liking people die on video?

But there isn't, and that's par for the course.
Look, I'm trying to be diplomatic here. Thunt has issues with reliability. He's also got issues in general. If you gave him money with the expectation of product, you probably should consider it a gift to him at this point.

I'm aware of Thunt being unreliable, and I didn't spend any money. I just thought there would have been some additional news by now because during the Indiegogo, he showed that the artwork was done for all the cards. I was bitching a lot about him doing a new campaign without finishing the old one and then he put down the art, showing it was all done, and I shut up, thinking that Thunt had finally made good on his promises.

But there's very little edgy grim-dark. That's a different genre. One that ep. 1 of that Goblin Slayer definitely has. I'd have to watch more before I'd make any judgments on that series as a whole, but I'd definitely say there're plenty of room between it and Goblins where someone might like one but not the other.

*shrugs* Okay... but I stand by my description. It's a Kore-like adventurer that hunts down evil goblins exclusively, and does whatever it takes to kill them off. I mentioned this here because it's a D&D style setting, features goblins, and the name Goblin Slayer made me think of this story's Goblin Slayer. I honestly thought that there would be a fair amount of crossover interest.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm not sure what you mean by pointless.

He means if 75% of episode 1 vastly differs from the rest of the series in terms of tone, then it is vaguely wasted in terms of showcasing to a prospective watcher what the show is about.

From where are you getting 75% of the episode is pointless? That's like saying 75% of book 1 of Goblins was pointless because 90% of the characters die.

If the rest of the comic did not have much of what happened in book 1 (humans fight humanoids, life is cheap, the tropes of D&D adventures are lampooned, etc.) did not show up in the rest of the series.

I just thought there would have been some additional news by now because during the Indiegogo, he showed that the artwork was done for all the cards. I was bitching a lot about him doing a new campaign without finishing the old one and then he put down the art, showing it was all done, and I shut up, thinking that Thunt had finally made good on his promises.

Yeah. Nope. He has not.

*shrugs* Okay... but I stand by my description. It's a Kore-like adventurer that hunts down evil goblins exclusively, and does whatever it takes to kill them off. I mentioned this here because it's a D&D style setting, features goblins, and the name Goblin Slayer made me think of this story's Goblin Slayer.

*shrugs* Okay... you got a few of us to check it out.

[Traab]

Normally, the first episode of an anime is there to establish the main character(s) the setting, and the tone. Take Attack on Titan as an example. We got to be introduced to at least a few of the main characters, got an info dump on the threat, and got to see that yes things can go very bad in this setting in a heart beat. If the majority of the characters that get introduced in the first episode die, and the tone changes rapidly in the following episodes, it means the first episode was basically a lie. Everything that was done to draw you in is mostly discarded. It would be like watching attack on titans opening episode, then having the rest of the season be the characters involved in a harem humor anime with occasional shots of titans in the background. If people start watching what they think is a brutal grim series only to have it actually be far more lighthearted its basically a bait and switch. You watch the second episode because what happened in the first drew your interest only to be given something else entirely.

Now, im not saying thats the case here. I didnt watch any other episodes and have no interest in trying, im just pointing out that that is probably what he meant with the post on it being pointless.

[John Cribati]

I'm not sure what you mean by pointless. It shows that goblins are considered to not be a big deal by newbie adventuers, but that they can be pretty strong, and if you don't take them seriously you die. It shows that goblins are sick, depraved bastards that kill without hesitation, capture women and rape them, making it feel carthic when they get slaughtered (these goblins don't actually have females, so they need to rape in order to have goblin babies).

See, a lot of that can be shown in a lot less detail. Like. Once they didn't outright kill her and started ripping her clothes off, I could see where it was going, because I'm an (allegedly mature) adult- the target audience of the show- and understands what it means. The shot shot of her naked, ravaged body and lingering on her thousand-yard stare is just window dressing, unless the writers just think I'm to dim to get it. Neither of those interpretations makes me feel too good about where the writers are coming from or where they intend to go.

Compare this to, say, when Fumbles got captured. He had a small scene where the torture began, there was a fade to black of him yelling, and next we see him, the word "MONSTER" is carved into his forehead. We didn't need to see Dellyn methodically carving the word line-by-line into his flesh. We get what happened.

And furthermore, there was a consequence to it. Fumbles was mute for a few days in comic time- a few years in real time- and didn't snap out of it until he heard Chief being tortured. And it was badass when he just put on that goofy mustache and started walking to fight Kore without a word to anyone else. His suffering had an actual payoff in the story and didn't only serve to point out that Dellyn has some kind of torture fetish or show what humans think of goblins.

Basically acting like the scene needed to be that graphic to get the point across is an insult to somebody's intelligence.

[Lethologica]

I don't understand either side of this argument, really. Goblin Slayer is Ye Generic Fantasy Anime with some extra titillation and brutalization and some extra armor on Our Hero and no other distinguishing features, and this is blatantly obvious from chapter/episode 1 onwards. The first episode isn't a pointless lie, it's just mediocre. So is the rest of the series.

[John Cribati]

Nah. I'm just saying that people should just admit to liking gratuitous violence for its own sake, without trying to justify it by attributing artistic or narrative value to it.

[tomaO2]

He means if 75% of episode 1 vastly differs from the rest of the series in terms of tone, then it is vaguely wasted in terms of showcasing to a prospective watcher what the show is about.

If the rest of the comic did not have much of what happened in book 1 (humans fight humanoids, life is cheap, the tropes of D&D adventures are lampooned, etc.) did not show up in the rest of the series.

It's a story about a guy that kills goblins, and saves their victims, if it's convenient. That's exactly what episode 1 is.

In Goblin Slayer, humans do fight numanoids (humans vs goblins), life is cheap (adventurers die all the time, villiagers are killed and raped with little notice from the government), and D&D conventions are... well, not mocked but certainly referenced (party of moronic newbs go out to kill goblins, and get wrecked. Goblins are said to be from the Green Moon, certain species are known as the prayer races, not player races, PRAYER).

Normally, the first episode of an anime is there to establish the main character(s) the setting, and the tone. Take Attack on Titan as an example. We got to be introduced to at least a few of the main characters, got an info dump on the threat, and got to see that yes things can go very bad in this setting in a heart beat. If the majority of the characters that get introduced in the first episode die, and the tone changes rapidly in the following episodes, it means the first episode was basically a lie. Everything that was done to draw you in is mostly discarded. It would be like watching attack on titans opening episode, then having the rest of the season be the characters involved in a harem humor anime with occasional shots of titans in the background. If people start watching what they think is a brutal grim series only to have it actually be far more lighthearted its basically a bait and switch. You watch the second episode because what happened in the first drew your interest only to be given something else entirely.

Now, im not saying thats the case here. I didnt watch any other episodes and have no interest in trying, im just pointing out that that is probably what he meant with the post on it being pointless.

Okay, I don't think that is the case.

There were six characters introduced. The main characters of the story, Goblin Slayer and Priestess were established, along with Guild Girl, who is a recurring extra. The other three were overconfident newbies that were given a variety of death flags. It's very well established that weak adventuers get killed fairly frequently fighting goblins, which is why the second party are all seasoned professionals (except for Priestess)

The story is Goblin Slayer killing goblins. This does not change, but it doesn't mean that it's not all grim either. The interactions of the first adventurers is not a lie, because others acts like they do. In fact, almost everyone acts in a light hearted manner a lot of time time. Goblin Slayer is uniquely grim in his personality, and those characteristics remain in place.

See, a lot of that can be shown in a lot less detail. Like. Once they didn't outright kill her and started ripping her clothes off, I could see where it was going, because I'm an (allegedly mature) adult- the target audience of the show- and understands what it means. The shot shot of her naked, ravaged body and lingering on her thousand-yard stare is just window dressing, unless the writers just think I'm to dim to get it. Neither of those interpretations makes me feel too good about where the writers are coming from or where they intend to go.

And Thunt didn't need to show us a close up on the Teller's face when Forgath burned it to death with his magic, or when we watched MinMax stab a goblin to death that was pleading for his life. Did we need to watch such a brutal slaughter in order to show that maybe the adventurers are the bad guys? Like I said earlier, for me, personally, gore is a bigger turn off than rape, and I cannot watch live action stuff that have excessive amounts of it. It's not as problematical for me when it's animated instead, but there is still a ton more gore in Goblins than there is in Goblin Slayer. Tastes vary, but what offends you isn't intrinsically worse than what bothers me.

Look, you are complaining about a single ten second rape scene with no graphic nudity involved, that happened over the course of a 24 minute episode. It's perfectly valid if you want to dismiss the story because of that, but don't pretend that Goblins doesn't also get graphic with the violence, it's just a different type.

And furthermore, there was a consequence to it. Fumbles was mute for a few days in comic time- a few years in real time- and didn't snap out of it until he heard Chief being tortured. And it was badass when he just put on that goofy mustache and started walking to fight Kore without a word to anyone else. His suffering had an actual payoff in the story and didn't only serve to point out that Dellyn has some kind of torture fetish or show what humans think of goblins.

The girl that was raped also went catatonic, and she may even have a part later on. She certainly hasn't been forgotten. Future story arcs deal with how other women have dealt with being raped. Priestess has been shown to be dealing with the trauma of losing her party by latching on to Goblin Slayer and using her faith in him to help her manage. It was a very significant event for her.

Look, you hate the show because it didn't deal with the rape offscreen, I get it. You seem to be of the opinion that it's okay to have ultra violence, dismemberment, or references to rape, but not have actual rape. If that's your hot button issue, then fine, I did warn you about it beforehand, and I really wish you had listened, so I wouldn't be listening to all this complaining, but fine.

But you don't need to be bashing like this. The point is made, you think Goblin Slayer shouldn't be watched if you can't stand a rape scene, and I will absolutely agree with you.

[Anteros]

But there isn't, and that's par for the course.
Look, I'm trying to be diplomatic here. Thunt has issues with reliability. He's also got issues in general. If you gave him money with the expectation of product, you probably should consider it a gift to him at this point. We've probably all had friends in real life like that, who have bigger plans than they can deliver, but never quite get around to acknowledging that they failed at the endeavor. If you want to get angry with Thunt, there's an entire website dedicated to raging at webcomic authors, with a page for Goblins.

I looked at that page out of curiosity. Man, it's over the top. The person who made that site is either the most sensitive person in the world, or (more likely) playing it up for humor.

[John Cribati]

For the record, I watched the episode nearly two weeks ago. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction. Neither am I particularly squeamish about violence- I watched and read Elfen Lied before I turned thirteen, and very little has fazed me since.

The most I've said about the quality of the show itself is that I found it to have lots of edge but little depth. Neither of those are indicative of my opinion of its quality, and I frankly have no strong feeling for it otherwise. Rather, most of this discussion has been about the use and purpose of violence in a narrative, and the illogical nature of using unnecessarily graphic imagery to bring a point across.

I'm not sure where this hostility is coming from.

[Lethologica]

But you don't need to be bashing like this. The point is made, you think Goblin Slayer shouldn't be watched if you can't stand a rape scene, and I will absolutely agree with you.

More like, "Don't watch Goblin Slayer if having a rape scene to set up an entire villainous race of obligate rapists whose rape victims will continue to show up for shock/titillation doesn't sound like a good time." Somehow not liking a rape scene is being interpreted as being unable to handle a rape scene. My reaction, and my reading of John Cribati's reaction, is less "OMG this rape is 2 Edgy 4 Me let me clutch my pearls now" and more "Ugh, really? That's all there is to this story?" (Personally, I would say that reaction could apply to a lot more than the rape scene, but hey.)

[Ibrinar]

Can't the goblin slayer go in the manga/anime thread no need to discuss its faults in two places, since it isn't about the Kore comparison anymore. (Btw don't think they are particularly similar Kore is a unstoppable antagonist, like the terminator that follows the good guys relentlessly. And while he wants to kill all monsters that is something different to read about than a protagonist that wants to commit genocide. )

[deuterio12]

Normally, the first episode of an anime is there to establish the main character(s) the setting, and the tone. Take Attack on Titan as an example. We got to be introduced to at least a few of the main characters, got an info dump on the threat, and got to see that yes things can go very bad in this setting in a heart beat. If the majority of the characters that get introduced in the first episode die, and the tone changes rapidly in the following episodes, it means the first episode was basically a lie. Everything that was done to draw you in is mostly discarded. It would be like watching attack on titans opening episode, then having the rest of the season be the characters involved in a harem humor anime with occasional shots of titans in the background. If people start watching what they think is a brutal grim series only to have it actually be far more lighthearted its basically a bait and switch. You watch the second episode because what happened in the first drew your interest only to be given something else entirely.

I admit it may not be everybody's cup of tea but can lead to quite good results if done right.

Puella Madoka Magica's first episode looks like classic magic girl series but then things get pretty dark pretty fast as the series go on.

Suisei no Gargantia starts with massive epic battle in space between thousands of mecha and countless space squids then the protagonist pilot is thrown into a wormhole at the end and for the rest of the series is stuck in some backwater planet with other people where there's neither space squids nor the brutal government he lived all his life under and is left going "what the hell do I do now?"

And if you ask me those series would lose something if we didn't see the sudden shift, because that's precisely the point, the main characters were used to something but suddenly see their world turned upside down. Madoka realizes that being a magic girl isn't all sunshine and rainbows while in Suisei no Gargantia a pilot that has known nothing but following orders in an endless war has to figure out what to do when he gets to choose things by himself.

Ditto for Goblin Slayer. The first episode is there to show us Goblin Slayer's personal dark world, he only cares about killing goblins (in the second he even admits that he's come to enjoy killing goblins), but then the actual series is other characters trying to show Goblin Slayer there's a wider, less dark world out there beyond killing goblins.

[Keltest]

Can't the goblin slayer go in the manga/anime thread no need to discuss its faults in two places, since it isn't about the Kore comparison anymore. (Btw don't think they are particularly similar Kore is a unstoppable antagonist, like the terminator that follows the good guys relentlessly. And while he wants to kill all monsters that is something different to read about than a protagonist that wants to commit genocide. )

Seconding this. I don't care about this anime, this isn't the anime thread, and I feel like some people are taking it entirely too personally that somebody doesn't share their tastes.

[Willie the Duck]

I looked at that page out of curiosity. Man, it's over the top. The person who made that site is either the most sensitive person in the world, or (more likely) playing it up for humor.

Sorry, I should have warned people. The BadWebcomics site in general is built by and contributed to by people that have grievance complexes (or, potentially, are doing so ironically). I've seen people do more reasoned and rational critiques of Thunt, but I was specifically going for the extreme.

[Quild]

New page.

I guess that my theory about its weakness being other Kliks goes stronger!

[Traab]

Come on forgath, come on idle, you both have ways of dealing with this guy! Idle can use whatever abilities she had before she started developing self destructive spells, forgath has heals and buffs, and the ability to hold person (I assume it would work on wood klik) And can always hurl a celestial badger or something at it. This guy is on the ropes, clearly a couple shots from death. TAKE THOSE SHOTS!

[Douglas]

Hold Person should have no effect on any klik because they're not humanoids. He'd need Hold Monster, which isn't even on the cleric spell list.

[Traab]

Hold Person should have no effect on any klik because they're not humanoids. He'd need Hold Monster, which isn't even on the cleric spell list.

Ah ok, but the rest of my points still stand. He has heals, buffs, glowing badgers, idle has whatever her class was before the cursewalk, bowst is probably not dead so will likely show up next comic or two, this isnt the time to run away screaming! Its time to finish him OFF! You know, before he has a chance to freaking heal himself to full again.

[Willie the Duck]

Hold Person should have no effect on any klik because they're not humanoids. He'd need Hold Monster, which isn't even on the cleric spell list.

I'm not even sure if hold person would work on Forgath at this point. D'ya suppose he's a construct (or aberration) at this point?

[Traab]

I'm not even sure if hold person would work on Forgath at this point. D'ya suppose he's a construct (or aberration) at this point?

If it worked on whatever the heck mutated spawn of hell kore is, it should work on forgath. It also wouldnt be the first time he has tweaked a spell or ability to make it do what he wants for narrative purposes.

[Quild]

New page

Gasp.

[Keltest]

Ouch. That's gotta sting. Although one wonders what she thought would happen, since its not like its arms are short.