Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Quild]

The racist axe allowed Forgath to fight Kore.
Forgath was without discussion still a dwarf at this point. If Kore was not, the racist axe would only have been a +1 axe.

http://goblinscomic.com/comic/10032013

Kore is a dwarf. Also a paladin.

[Agi Hammerthief]

The racist axe allowed Forgath to fight Kore.
Forgath was without discussion still a dwarf at this point. If Kore was not, the racist axe would only have been a +1 axe.

http://goblinscomic.com/comic/10032013

Kore is a dwarf. Also a paladin.

yeah, plus whatever templates he’s collected.

he could be as little as half Dwarf and still count as Dwarf „for any effect related to race:

„Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.“

[Draconi Redfir]

he was affected by the rope going through his throat, and he still has trouble breathing.

so he clearly has a Trachea and a set of lungs if nothing else.

[Traab]

he was affected by the rope going through his throat, and he still has trouble breathing.

so he clearly has a Trachea and a set of lungs if nothing else.

Its also possible he is deteriorating. He has been taking damage steadily over the course of killing chief to now. The rope through the neck was his first big damage, then forgath proceeded to punch his face till he saw fifty faces or more. THEN he took damage from Kin before being dropped down into a pit, and THEN he took pretty harsh damage from this golem. Its possible his form is falling apart and thats why he went from meat puppet to glowing being. It may also explain why he is wasting time calling back the chiefs spirit. He may be buying time, or hoping to distract them so he can go back to finishing them off, considering how fast he mopped the floor with the gobs once he got past the golem. Seriously, I did not expect the fight to go against them that horribly once it came down to direct combat considering how many spells he has wasted, how damaged his gear is, and how damaged HE is. He is incredibly deadly still and that comic where he took down thaco and names with contemptuous ease helped re-establish his monster killing bonafides. After the fight with forgath, even though he had all sorts of advantages, it felt like he came close to winning a solo duel at level 4/5. Now we see the truth, forgath never stood a chance. Now we can see him as a true juggernaut monster killer that his reputation claimed him to be.

[Vinyadan]

Its also possible he is deteriorating. He has been taking damage steadily over the course of killing chief to now. The rope through the neck was his first big damage, then forgath proceeded to punch his face till he saw fifty faces or more. THEN he took damage from Kin before being dropped down into a pit, and THEN he took pretty harsh damage from this golem. Its possible his form is falling apart and thats why he went from meat puppet to glowing being. It may also explain why he is wasting time calling back the chiefs spirit. He may be buying time, or hoping to distract them so he can go back to finishing them off, considering how fast he mopped the floor with the gobs once he got past the golem. Seriously, I did not expect the fight to go against them that horribly once it came down to direct combat considering how many spells he has wasted, how damaged his gear is, and how damaged HE is. He is incredibly deadly still and that comic where he took down thaco and names with contemptuous ease helped re-establish his monster killing bonafides. After the fight with forgath, even though he had all sorts of advantages, it felt like he came close to winning a solo duel at level 4/5. Now we see the truth, forgath never stood a chance. Now we can see him as a true juggernaut monster killer that his reputation claimed him to be.

He may hope to learn something about these obviously unusual goblins.

[deuterio12]

he was affected by the rope going through his throat, and he still has trouble breathing.

so he clearly has a Trachea and a set of lungs if nothing else.

Plus Kore bled when stabbed in the neck thus he still has blood and blood vessels and a working heart.

He still has the blood stains in his own armor and everything. Kore's own plain old red blood.

EDIT: Plus notice how in the most recent comic Kore's eyes are mostly red from being bloodshot while a few strips ago they were mostly white. So his eyes still following normal dwarf biology too.

[Draconi Redfir]

i think this just shoes that that gap in his head is just similar to a bag of holding and is bigger on the inside.

the rest of his head and body is normal biology, and if you were to approach that part of his head from the inside, you'd probably see more head.

but because you're looking in from that particular glowing gap, you see a big open glowing space that has no right being there.

[Nettlekid]

Convoluted plot-first, verisimilitude-second explanation with the barest semblance of rooting in D&D? Check. Gross and gaudy gore that took no one by surprise? Check. Well, Goblins will be Goblins.

[Draconi Redfir]

New comic is up

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Don't wanna say i called it but... i called it... thought he'd only have to do one ear to be honest.

[deuterio12]

That was a masterful move by Kore.

Not only is Chief distracting them while he makes his escape, he's also giving the completely wrong advice.

Basically even if they make Kore not count as LG, it barely impacts him since he hasn't been using his paladin powers much. Smite Evil? Detect Evil? Remove Disease? Special mount? He's never used any of those. Charisma to saves? His charisma clearly sucks so he won't miss that either. Lay on hands? Just chug a potion instead. Only thing he may care about is loss of spellcasting and not like he was using that much either.

Meanwhile Kore would still retain his full Bab and d10HP and armor proficiency and all other fighty stats that what's make him really dangerous.

Worst case scenario, Kore could even trade his gimped paladin levels for Blackguard levels right away which would arguably make him a lot more dangerous since that comes with a lot of abilities for hurting others.

So they should just pursue Kore (that's leaving a convenient bleeding trail and everything) and then resume stabbing the hell out of him.

[Fyraltari]

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Welp, time to learn sign language, I guess.
Also, while this was clearly a distraction, I didn’t expect Kore to use it to run away.

That was a masterful move by Kore.

Not only is Chief distracting them while he makes his escape, he's also giving the completely wrong advice.

Basically even if they make Kore not count as LG, it barely impacts him since he hasn't been using his paladin powers much. Smite Evil? Detect Evil? Remove Disease? Special mount? He's never used any of those. Charisma to saves? His charisma clearly sucks so he won't miss that either. Lay on hands? Just chug a potion instead. Only thing he may care about is loss of spellcasting and not like he was using that much either.

Meanwhile Kore would still retain his full Bab and d10HP and armor proficiency and all other fighty stats that what's make him really dangerous.

Worst case scenario, Kore could even trade his gimped paladin levels for Blackguard levels right away which would arguably make him a lot more dangerous since that comes with a lot of abilities for hurting others.

So they should just pursue Kore (that's leaving a convenient bleeding trail and everything) and then resume stabbing the hell out of him.

Being a LG paladin is the core (eh) of Kore’s identity, take that from him and he’ll lose whatever grip on sanity he has left. Hell, he might kill himself if he realizes he actually is evil. He certainly won’t take blackguard levels. It’s also very possible that his curse is dependent on his being a paladin (because of the whole Prissan business) meaning that without his paladinhood he might just drop dead immediately.

[Neoriceisgood]

I really can't stand Thunt's urge to incessantly maim characters.

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I had to cut my own ears off to wear this helmet seems like something you'd expect from a Goblins parody.

[Fyraltari]

How good do you think Fumble’s healing spells are now?

[tomaO2]

I'm getting the same sort of visual revulsion I had when I saw Chief all chopped up before dying. Nasty stuff, this update has. Kinda impressive. It's not like I haven't read all sorts of gore filled stories, yet this bothers me. Also, we found out the secret to Kore's alignment. Don't much care for it.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Well, at least now we learned that the thousands of souls Kore harvested are actively suffering. Another spot of sunshine in the beautiful world of goblins.

[Draconi Redfir]

Charisma to saves? His charisma clearly sucks so he won't miss that either.

what makes you think his charisma sucks? Charisma does not equal "good looking".

[deuterio12]

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Welp, time to learn sign language, I guess.
Also, while this was clearly a distraction, I didn’t expect Kore to use it to run away.

Being a LG paladin is the core (eh) of Kore’s identity, take that from him and he’ll lose whatever grip on sanity he has left. Hell, he might kill himself if he realizes he actually is evil. He certainly won’t take blackguard levels. It’s also very possible that his curse is dependent on his being a paladin (because of the whole Prissan business) meaning that without his paladinhood he might just drop dead immediately.

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Wait, Kore has any sanity left to lose?

There's some chance he suicides yes, but then there's also a chance he just fully embraces his evil self.

If Kore spread so much pain and suffering while thinking he was doing good, can you imagine how bad things will get if he actually accepts his own feelings?

As for paladin-specific curse, I still don't buy that theory. The axe of prissan is separate from Kore besides one being a (cheating) paladin and another being a paladin-related artifact as far as I see it. Otherwise Kore would've recognized it on sight right away, or be actively hunting for it, instead of needing to be touched by it.

Well, at least now we learned that the thousands of souls Kore harvested are actively suffering. Another spot of sunshine in the beautiful world of goblins.

What, the silent screaming soul faces in clear agony we had seen before around Kore weren't evidence enough?

what makes you think his charisma sucks? Charisma does not equal "good looking".

1-One of the representations of charisma is precisely good lucks. See:dryad, succubus, angels, nereid, etc.
2-Another representation of charisma is good communication skills, but Kore can't even hold a proper conversation.
3-Yet another representation of charisma is leadership, but Kore's as alone as they come, zero allies/friends/minions. Surely Kore the unstoppable monster slayer would've attracted some sort of cult following him from a safe distance (even captain Gobslayer rose pretty high in society) but everybody fears/hates/distrusts Kore. A strong sign of bad charisma.
4-Dwarf racial penalty.

[Draconi Redfir]

1-One of the representations of charisma is precisely good lucks. See:dryad, succubus, angels, nereid, etc.

Yes, ONE of the representations. there are many others. Charisma is more like how much influence you have on the world and people around you, you can have a charisma of 30 and be so hiddiously horrifying that people tremble and shake at the mere sight of you, and that would be an accurate representation. that's why a lot of undead have high charisma, because they have a high influence on people and the world around them, be they beautiful vampires, or horrifying liches.

2-Another representation of charisma is good communication skills, but Kore can't even hold a proper conversation.

The dude has a gaddang rope lodged into the same physical space as his throat on a molecular level. What do you expect him to do, recite perfect shakespear?

3-Yet another representation of charisma is leadership, but Kore's as alone as they come, zero allies/friends/minions. Surely Kore the unstoppable monster slayer would've attracted some sort of cult following him from a safe distance (even captain Gobslayer rose pretty high in society) but everybody fears/hates/distrusts Kore. A strong sign of bad charisma.

Emphasis mine. You don't need to have an active following in order to have leadership qualities. But you can bet that if Kore walked into a town to shop, even if he had no intent on killing anyone, he'd impose an aura of fear, hate, distrust, and/or respect. People would do what he asked of them without question, they would stay away from him to avoid his wrath. His very presence affects people. that's the definition of a high charisma.

4-Dwarf racial penalty.

So? Goblins get a strength penalty. You don't see Complains or Big-ears having trouble kicking butt.

[deuterio12]

Yes, ONE of the representations. there are many others. Charisma is more like how much influence you have on the world and people around you, you can have a charisma of 30 and be so hiddiously horrifying that people tremble and shake at the mere sight of you, and that would be an accurate representation. that's why a lot of undead have high charisma, because they have a high influence on people and the world around them, be they beautiful vampires, or horrifying liches.

Counterpoint: basic zombies and skeletons get their charisma dropped to minimum 1.

Liches get increased charisma despite being reduced to skeletons because of increased mental abilities that make them better leaders/casters/speakers.

The dude has a gaddang rope lodged into the same physical space as his throat on a molecular level. What do you expect him to do, recite perfect shakespear?

He didn't always have that rope there, and Kin knew right away he was bad news. Kore sucks at first impressions.

Emphasis mine. You don't need to have an active following in order to have leadership qualities. But you can bet that if Kore walked into a town to shop, even if he had no intent on killing anyone, he'd impose an aura of fear, hate, distrust, and/or respect. People would do what he asked of them without question, they would stay away from him to avoid his wrath. His very presence affects people. that's the definition of a high charisma.

Except we've seen zero of that. Nobody has ever done anything for Kore. When Korgath and Minmax were fighting filthy goblins to the death, Kore arriving made them all unite against the lowest charisma opponent and coordinated themselves with precision to deny him any victory. Kore's all alone.

That's how low Kore's charisma is, even mortal enemies will unite on the spot against him.

So? Goblins get a strength penalty. You don't see Complains or Big-ears having trouble kicking butt.

Half the comic has been the puny goblins struggling to survive, plenty of them died along the way, and those still on their feet are just collecting more and more gruesome scars. Their victories, it's mostly by ganking others with numbers or because some insane luck like finding hax magic items while even Kore is stuck with nonmagic weapons. So yes, I've seen Complains and Big-ears having plenty of trouble to kick butt.

[Morty]

That's how low Kore's charisma is, even mortal enemies will unite on the spot against him.

I would have thought it had more to do with the rampant murdering than his Charisma score, but that's just me.

[Vinyadan]

I'm OK with this update, it feels like we're getting somewhere. The only thing I can complain about is how easily Kore was let go. He could have sprinted or rolled into the water instead, gone out of sight, and the Goblins could have received Thaco's advice not to go after him because, at that point, he probably was lying in ambush.

Also, I still think that Goblin clans giving names after what you will lose would be great. "Hand And Limbs, Illusion of Free Will, and Most Of His Warriors enter the Well of Darkness..."

[Traab]

Removing kores paladin powers would at least remove his most common self buff and his ability to heal himself when they get lucky with a crit roll and finally hurt the guy. He becomes reduced to a featless fighter with badly destroyed gear and a lot of hp. Now, the REAL problem is, is it just the alignment of the souls he harbors? Or will we learn he is capable of basically pulling a fumbles, infusing himself with the souls of say, a dozen evil clerics, and going right back to having spells and abilities again? Also yeah, biggest most obvious telegraph to gore paid off exactly how everyone knew it would.

[Fyraltari]

Wait, Kore has any sanity left to lose?

He can still function somewhat as long as he spends minimal time in contact with others so yes.

There's some chance he suicides yes, but then there's also a chance he just fully embraces his evil self.

If Kore spread so much pain and suffering while thinking he was doing good, can you imagine how bad things will get if he actually accepts his own feelings?

His feeling are pure self-rightousness. He’s not a sadist, he doesn’t do this because he enjoys it. He does it because he is a fanatic. Him embracing what he spent a thousand years fighting is not in the cards. At least not after considerable soul-searching and a nervous breakdown (or even a full blown depression) or three.

As for paladin-specific curse, I still don't buy that theory. The axe of prissan is separate from Kore besides one being a (cheating) paladin and another being a paladin-related artifact as far as I see it. Otherwise Kore would've recognized it on sight right away, or be actively hunting for it, instead of needing to be touched by it.

It’s not a theory, he is the last survivor of the battle that created it and he was cursed by the demons trapped inside it. He didn’t recognize it on the spot because it has been MORE THAN ONE THOUSAND YEARS since. He probably lost it literal centuries ago.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, at least now we learned that the thousands of souls Kore harvested are actively suffering. Another spot of sunshine in the beautiful world of goblins.

It leads me to fear what the final resolution might be. "I don't know. Just... find a way. Please. It hurts so much in there." sounds a little too close to, 'do whatever it takes, it's that bad.' which leads me to think that there might be some 'hard sacrifice' style resolution like getting the LG souls out of him by destroying them/banishing to good souls to hell/other things that I personally don't think you should get to do with souls.

As to how much losing his paladinship would hurt Kore, I think this might be a place where paladinhood in Goblins more resembles its iconic representation in D&D lore rather than the actual benefits of the 3e paladin class. Kore may only be an evil force of nature to low level unoptimized PC goblins, but on that scale, he's an evil force of nature.

[Vinyadan]

Just imagine Kore meeting Forgath again without paladin powers.

"Hold Person." Five to six coup de grace follow.

[sihnfahl]

"You see this guy on the ground that you just tore half the head off? You gotta stop him, so really, really bad! Here's why he's so really, really bad!"

Okay, so, why can't they kill him right now? Would that free the souls from his control? No explanation given.

[Keltest]

That seemed... really unnecessary, to be honest. Like, I get that Goblins is a gorefest, and for the most part im, if not OK with it, then at least accepting that smacking somebody with a sword or an axe isn't going to be pretty. But having to resort to self-mutilation to use a random magic item is just... why? The fridge logic kicks in here a bit, there really isn't any good reason for the helmet to not fit Big Ears even though it fit all the other goblins' non-standard head shapes. Its magic, its literally supposed to Just Work, by design.

[Draconi Redfir]

That seemed... really unnecessary, to be honest. Like, I get that Goblins is a gorefest, and for the most part im, if not OK with it, then at least accepting that smacking somebody with a sword or an axe isn't going to be pretty. But having to resort to self-mutilation to use a random magic item is just... why? The fridge logic kicks in here a bit, there really isn't any good reason for the helmet to not fit Big Ears even though it fit all the other goblins' non-standard head shapes. Its magic, its literally supposed to Just Work, by design.

Not every magic item is able to re-size itself to fit the user. That helmet was still large enough to fit a human head, but Big-ears effectively had two stuffed socks hanging out the side of his head.

Counterpoint: basic zombies and skeletons get their charisma dropped to minimum 1.

And a single zombie doesn't assert a whole lot of power around it does it? One zombie won't get a town of people running. People who don't know what it is may try to approach it and see what's wrong with the person. People who do know what it is may give it a quick stab to the head and end it right then and there. Zombies are only ever a threat that changes someone's mental state on them when they're in huge groups.

Liches get increased charisma despite being reduced to skeletons because of increased mental abilities that make them better leaders/casters/speakers.

it's more of "they loose charisma for being pretty humans, but gain charisma for being fearful magic undead with world-ending powers" really.

He didn't always have that rope there, and Kin knew right away he was bad news. Kore sucks at first impressions.

He had the rope in his throat when Kin first met him. He can actually be quite verbose when he wants to be. That's not even mentioning that in that same event, he had an entire tavern orf orcs, ogres, and monsters quaking in their boots out of fear. Having a high charisma doesn't mean you like to talk. And sometimes, it's the silent killers that you really fear.

Except we've seen zero of that. Nobody has ever done anything for Kore.

We've seen zero evidence of him having a low charisma score too.

When Korgath and Minmax were fighting filthy goblins to the death, Kore arriving made them all unite against the lowest charisma opponent and coordinated themselves with precision to deny him any victory.

We've never seen them "unite against the lowest charisma opponent", you're treating this like the world is on a giant witch-hunt for low charisma people. they united against the biggest THREAT. not the lowest CHARISMA. these are two entirely different things!

Kore's all alone.

You can have a high charisma and still work alone. High charisma =/= a swarm of followers. Any super-hero story could tell you that. Plus he's on a quest to "Destroy all evil", and from his perspective, even being in the presence of evil can cause a "seed of evil" to take root. Even if someone wanted to join him, he'd refuse. He even outright states himself that He works alone, it has nothing to do with people not wanting to work against him because of his "low charisma"

That's how low Kore's charisma is, even mortal enemies will unite on the spot against him.

Again, you team up with your mortal enemy to fight a bigger threat, not a lower charisma. Unless you're saying that this Pandaren Monk has an incredibly low charisma? Or this Infernal demon?

[Lord Torath]

That seemed... really unnecessary, to be honest. Like, I get that Goblins is a gorefest, and for the most part im, if not OK with it, then at least accepting that smacking somebody with a sword or an axe isn't going to be pretty. But having to resort to self-mutilation to use a random magic item is just... why? The fridge logic kicks in here a bit, there really isn't any good reason for the helmet to not fit Big Ears even though it fit all the other goblins' non-standard head shapes. Its magic, its literally supposed to Just Work, by design.

Not every magic item is able to re-size itself to fit the user. That helmet was still large enough to fit a human head, but Big-ears effectively had two stuffed socks hanging out the side of his head.

I still call "shenanigans." Magic items resize to fit the wearer. Cutting his big ears off shows his dedication, yes, but should have been totally unnecessary.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I agree that we haven't seen a lot of evidence of Kore's charisma, but I'd argue that this is because he doesn't seem to use abilities that make use of it a lot, or at all. People quiver in fear of his reputation, they recognize him and know they will be killed. He isn't actively trying to intimidate people or bluff them, just to kill them. And he's been doing that long enough that he could be an awakened weiner dog with a funny hat and everyone would still run away from him.