Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Lvl 2 Expert]

i propose a compromise.

it's a world, but the Drow trio are idiot spirits / aliens creating and/or possessing people because they believe it's a game due to having game-like rules and physics.

Forgath and Minmax by this point have both been fleshed out enough to suggest that they are natives to the world, and any game-related terminology is just the base physics of the world, like us talking about gravity or light.

basically the Drow-trio are exceptions, not the rule.

Minmax and Forgath are PC's. And not even in the OOTS sense where PC's exist as narrative heroes but nothing else. Minmax, Forgath and the tree drow have players.

Yes, it's also a world. No, it is never explained how those things go together, let alone how something like the Maze of many works. That in itself may be one of the reasons why the PC aspect has come up so little roughly since the 3 drow died the second time (the time they weren't drow). (Another reason might be that the author thought the jokes got old and she just wanted to do something different with the comic.) But if it has been retconned to be just a world without PC's or a DM than that retcon happened outside of the comic itself, which leaves anyone free to ignore it. It also leaves the comic with more plotholes thab it solves, like Forgath still calling on his god Herbert.

I personally think the PC - NPC distinction still adds to the story, even when not addressed out loud. On this page for instance I'm convinced we're watching a failed intelligence check, whether the author intended it or not. The entire train of thought is correct, so the outcome should be... Oops, I guess someone shouldn't have minmaxed their character like that. It goes above and beyond the current page in showing Minmax should have figured it out but didn't. I think this aspect works for this comic, it adds much needed humor and another layer to the world, despite not making full logical sense, NPC's living their own adventure inside a tabletop RPG currently being played from someone else's perspective. Fictional universes rarely make full logical sense when you try to think them all the way through. Physicists can't even make the real world make full logical sense yet, and we're pretty sure it exists.

[Draconi Redfir]

i mean i don't see why Herbert can't just be a little-known or often mocked god known tittle wise as "The dungeon master" who is just described as being a huge nerd. Maybe his mom is also one of the other gods, her basement is a godly plane of existence, and world of warcraft is a pocket realm he controls where he makes endless hollow wars with no goals or meaning, all because he's a vain god who has a lot of power, but not a whole lot of reason to use it. For Minmax, perhaps he once was more competent, and able to wink, rhyme, and dress himself, but he decided to make a pact with Herbert to trade in all those things for more power. That's why he's the only one other then Forgath who seems to know about Herbert's existence.

Minmax and Forgath really haven't said as much as the Drow have to suggest they're not native to the world. almost everything game-rules-wise they've talked about has been the same kind of things OOTS talks about.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

This makes Minmax and Forgath the characters of more competent players, which also neatly explains how they're so much better at staying alive. It does not make them characters with no players. The compromise adds layers of complexity the original puzzle doesn't need in order to be solved.

[Vinyadan]

Well, unlike most other characters, MM and Forgath are aware of pop culture from our world, so they know about the Jedi and Skyrim jokes.

Vorpal may have known about the "I attack the darkness" sketch, however.

[Anteros]

I think this is just one of those things where the fans are putting way more thought into it than the author ever did.

[tomaO2]

I point out, again, that even if you could say that Minmax seems to be a person of this world, that doesn't explain his horrendous backstory. You don't have to explain why Minmax can break the rules on the maximum number of feats, how he traded in his ability to read for a combat bonus, or how he managed to live an entire life without knowing how to dress himself, if you assume that he was never a child.

Once you say that this is just another inhabitant of the world though... Suddenly Minmax doesn't make any sense at all. I'm really curious as to why this is an issue for the author. Like, why suddenly start dismissing this aspect? What possible gain is there to doing so? All I can see is negatives.

[Morgaln]

We've been explicitely told there are players that control at least some of the characters. Forgath is specifically mentioned to be a character played by someone else. The existence of the players is therefore canon.

[Agi Hammerthief]

I think this is just one of those things where the fans are putting way more thought into it than the author ever did.

I agree.

I think of it as it always being a long time between player/DM sessions, where the DM kills time by running an NPC only session.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Well, unlike most other characters, MM and Forgath are aware of pop culture from our world, so they know about the Jedi and Skyrim jokes.

Vorpal may have known about the "I attack the darkness" sketch, however.

You know, it might be kind of funny if as the most powerful teller ever Vorpal would start seeing things from outside the gameworld. Maybe starting with things like Herbert knocking over their miniature and working his way up from there.

On the other hand, at this point in the comic that might just be needlessly confusing.

[DataNinja]

I know for me, I much prefer at this point it to be kept to the same degree as (Calvin &) Hobbes' reality. Is he a tiger? Is it all just imagination? It doesn't matter. It only ever comes up to serve as delivering a joke or whatever (being dizzy after coming out of the dryer), and it's never really answered. I don't feel like it'd be satisfactory if it was set concrete as one way or the other. Just my two cents.

[Traab]

I know for me, I much prefer at this point it to be kept to the same degree as (Calvin &) Hobbes' reality. Is he a tiger? Is it all just imagination? It doesn't matter. It only ever comes up to serve as delivering a joke or whatever (being dizzy after coming out of the dryer), and it's never really answered. I don't feel like it'd be satisfactory if it was set concrete as one way or the other. Just my two cents.

You... you think there is a possibility that hobbes is an actual magical tiger creature that turns into a stuffed animal whenever anyone but calvin looks at him while calvin is a reality warper who again can only do so as long as nobody pays attention to him? When has it EVER been treated as anything other than his imagination? I mean, if you want to consider that a possibility to enhance your enjoyment, by all means feel free, meanwhile I like to enjoy dominic deegan by pretending im writing it, but auto correct keeps replacing all the dialogue (and art) with total garbage.

[DataNinja]

You... you think there is a possibility that hobbes is an actual magical tiger creature that turns into a stuffed animal whenever anyone but calvin looks at him while calvin is a reality warper who again can only do so as long as nobody pays attention to him? When has it EVER been treated as anything other than his imagination? I mean, if you want to consider that a possibility to enhance your enjoyment, by all means feel free, meanwhile I like to enjoy dominic deegan by pretending im writing it, but auto correct keeps replacing all the dialogue (and art) with total garbage.

I mean, you have stuff like this that blur things kind of. And that's the point. The author deliberately sets out to allow for different interpretations, without having to commit to one or the other. I'm not saying it's perfect, nor that it necessarily makes sense overall of course.

[Draconi Redfir]

all i know is i just find the concept of "It's all a game, just a bunch of nerds sitting around a table" to be... incredibly boring. There's no risk, nothing at stake, nothing to loose. Nothing is even remotely interesting or compelling about that aspect.

A fantastical world where all of this is real and the people we've been invested in are real, actual people and face real, actual consequences is just so much more compelling! Panning out and having everything just be mini's on a table would just be a kick in the nuts after everything we've seen so far.

it's the difference between being immersed in a video game and watching your character win against overwhelming odds, and sitting on the couch with your eyes locked on the person who is actually playing the video game.

One is an amazing story with amazing feats and fantastical elements, the other is... just some guy.

[Willie the Duck]

I think this is just one of those things where the fans are putting way more thought into it than the author ever did.

Or the author did something, got tired of it, and quietly de-emphasized it to tell the story they wanted to tell, and fans convoluted over-analysis will not return a more definitive answer.

Addendum: Personally, I'm just waiting to see how we can tie the whole thing in to the Tommy Westphall-verse.

[Radar]

all i know is i just find the concept of "It's all a game, just a bunch of nerds sitting around a table" to be... incredibly boring. There's no risk, nothing at stake, nothing to loose. Nothing is even remotely interesting or compelling about that aspect.

A fantastical world where all of this is real and the people we've been invested in are real, actual people and face real, actual consequences is just so much more compelling! Panning out and having everything just be mini's on a table would just be a kick in the nuts after everything we've seen so far.

it's the difference between being immersed in a video game and watching your character win against overwhelming odds, and sitting on the couch with your eyes locked on the person who is actually playing the video game.

One is an amazing story with amazing feats and fantastical elements, the other is... just some guy.

The thing is that only some of the characters are player avatars. The whole world is real in-story and just happens to be visited by various RPG players who slaughter monster races for fun and profit. The clash between mindless killing and the actual consequences was frankly one of the early themes that was pretty significant during the battle for the goblin warcamp.

[Agi Hammerthief]

it's the difference between being immersed in a video game and watching your character win against overwhelming odds, and sitting on the couch with your eyes locked on the person who is actually playing the video game.

One is an amazing story with amazing feats and fantastical elements, the other is... just some guy.

and yet, some people make a decent living of playing video games and letting others look over their shoulder via live stream or video upload.

[Typewriter]

I've always felt that the world is somewhat disconnected by the players actions in a meta sort of way. MM, the character, recognizes the worlds tragedies around him and responds to them appropriately. MM, the character, is also influenced by a player who does not feel the impact of those tragedies as much as the character himself. The player may, on occasion, 'break character' and have MM say or do something out of character - and that happens because players have agency - but it does not necessarily mean that MM, the character is aware of how/why this happens. MM is not the player who is controlling him, he is a character that is under the control of a player who plays inconsistently. I feel like this is what allows the strip to work as well as it does - it allows things to flow in a consistent manner for storytelling purposes but allows for a break all of that with some play with the fourth wall.

[Draconi Redfir]

and yet, some people make a decent living of playing video games and letting others look over their shoulder via live stream or video upload.

that's different, you're still watching the game, not the person playing it. and in the best of circumstances the player is adding something to it because they know you're there. can not be said to whoever is "playing" the goblinverse.

I've always felt that the world is somewhat disconnected by the players actions in a meta sort of way. MM, the character, recognizes the worlds tragedies around him and responds to them appropriately. MM, the character, is also influenced by a player who does not feel the impact of those tragedies as much as the character himself. The player may, on occasion, 'break character' and have MM say or do something out of character - and that happens because players have agency - but it does not necessarily mean that MM, the character is aware of how/why this happens. MM is not the player who is controlling him, he is a character that is under the control of a player who plays inconsistently. I feel like this is what allows the strip to work as well as it does - it allows things to flow in a consistent manner for storytelling purposes but allows for a break all of that with some play with the fourth wall.

i've said this too, but people are so quick to jump onto "BuT tHe DrOWwWwW!!!"that it's impossible to talk about.

[Traab]

As I said, I look at it as a world where the dm allows events to continue moving along even when the players arent there. Its not like in an rpg where you can go back to town a dozen times over and everyone has the same dialogue and nothing you do matters ever, its a world where the choices they make have ongoing, and snowballing, consequences. We as readers get to watch those consequences unfold while the players, ie minmax and forgath, only get to see (some) of whats happened when they bump back into it. As an example, take ff7. At several points you bump into sephiroth. As the player we have little to no idea as to what he was up to that brought him here. This comic would be showing us cloud and crew going on their adventure, then switching to show us sephiroth wandering the globe searching for whatever, then back to cloud just in time for them meeting up again.

[Lethologica]

You... you think there is a possibility that hobbes is an actual magical tiger creature that turns into a stuffed animal whenever anyone but calvin looks at him while calvin is a reality warper who again can only do so as long as nobody pays attention to him? When has it EVER been treated as anything other than his imagination? I mean, if you want to consider that a possibility to enhance your enjoyment, by all means feel free, meanwhile I like to enjoy dominic deegan by pretending im writing it, but auto correct keeps replacing all the dialogue (and art) with total garbage.

"Hobbes is more about the subjective nature of reality than dolls coming to life"
"When Hobbes is a stuffed toy in one panel and alive in the next, I'm juxtaposing the "grown-up" version of reality with Calvin's version, and inviting the reader to decide which is truer."
-Bill Watterson

Or, as a certain other fictional character put it:
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

[tomaO2]

I don't really care if it's an rpg that has been created by a GM, or a real world that has game-like mechanics. I've read both types of stories, and have enjoyed them. However, once you decide which way you are going to do the story, stick with it.

What I am hearing right now is a bunch of people saying that they really wish that the story wasn't an RPG world. Which is one thing, but now author has given quotes AGREEING with them, so it's only natural for others to get annoyed.

If author really wanted to turn the world into a reality, just do the trend of other world stories and just have Forgath and Minmax suddenly enter the bodies of their avatars, and now it's undeniably a real world.

[DataNinja]

If author really wanted to turn the world into a reality, just do the trend of other world stories and just have Forgath and Minmax suddenly enter the bodies of their avatars, and now it's undeniably a real world.

Then it becomes a story about that, though. Instead of just leaving it up in the air, and focussing on the story, and the characters we have. Not the characters-who-might-be-playing-the-characters-we-have.

[Lissou]

You... you think there is a possibility that hobbes is an actual magical tiger creature that turns into a stuffed animal whenever anyone but calvin looks at him while calvin is a reality warper who again can only do so as long as nobody pays attention to him? When has it EVER been treated as anything other than his imagination?

Well, from "The Calvin and Hobbes Tenth Anniversary Book":

I don’t think of Hobbes as a doll that miraculously comes to life when Calvin’s around. Neither do I think of Hobbes as the product of Calvin’s imagination. The nature of Hobbes’ reality doesn’t interest me, and each story goes out of its way to avoid resolving the issue.

I also remember strips where an adult will turn around and food goes missing, and only Hobbes is around (in plush form).

I can see how a "both realities" explanation could work for Goblins. As in, the characters have players, but they're also real. But I agree that there is no reason to resolve the issue.

[Agi Hammerthief]

that's different, you're still watching the game, not the person playing it.

yeah, watching the game. exactly like we watch Herberts players play the game...

and in the best of circumstances the player is adding something to it because they know you're there. can not be said to whoever is "playing" the goblinverse.

... and get the added „something“ of Herbert playing out the bits the players don’t see: All the parallel story arcs and consequences of the players actions.

[Draconi Redfir]

yeah, watching the game. exactly like we watch Herberts players play the game...

... and get the added „something“ of Herbert playing out the bits the players don’t see: All the parallel story arcs and consequences of the players actions.

*Faceplam* No. I'm talking the difference between this:

Spoiler

Show

in which the game is the main focus, you are watching the game, you are immersed in the game, the player is just a side-thing playing the game and adding commentary.

VS this

Spoiler

Show

Which is literally just a dude who is in the process of playing a video game, you don't even get to see the game, and he's not even talking. he's just kind of sitting there playing.

This is what you guys seem to think the Goblinverse is and oh my god that's boring as hell.

[GloatingSwine]

If author really wanted to turn the world into a reality, just do the trend of other world stories and just have Forgath and Minmax suddenly enter the bodies of their avatars, and now it's undeniably a real world.

But it would also be an isekai, which is a fate worse than unreality....


Anyway, the world is both real and being played in by players. That's the nature of the premise. Examining some of the assumptions that players of RPGs make about the things they fight for XP by treating them as if they were also people.

[Morgaln]

*Faceplam* No. I'm talking the difference between this:

Spoiler

Show

in which the game is the main focus, you are watching the game, you are immersed in the game, the player is just a side-thing playing the game and adding commentary.

VS this

Spoiler

Show

Which is literally just a dude who is in the process of playing a video game, you don't even get to see the game, and he's not even talking. he's just kind of sitting there playing.

This is what you guys seem to think the Goblinverse is and oh my god that's boring as hell.

Yes, that is boring as hell because, as you wrote earlier, it means there is no risk, no stakes, nothing to lose. Unfortunately, Goblins keeps reminding us that this is the canon truth. Again and again it mentions a dungeonmaster controlling everything, tells us there are characters who are played by others or reminds us that death only means you have to roll up a new character. Every time that happens it kills immersion and destroys all tension that has been built up.
It's the major gripe I have with the comic and in my eyes, a story-breaking flaw. Apparently you're able to come up with convoluted headcanons to rationalize this and explain it away even though it's not consistent the comic. I applaud you for that, because I am unable to do that. If an explanation doesn't fit all the facts in the comic, I will reject it.

[Draconi Redfir]

just take all the same logic in Order of the Stick, and apply it to goblins. All discussion of class, skill points, players, PC's, NPC's, everything else, it's all just part of the physics of the world.

if you can do one, you can do the other.

[Typewriter]

Yes, that is boring as hell because, as you wrote earlier, it means there is no risk, no stakes, nothing to lose. Unfortunately, Goblins keeps reminding us that this is the canon truth. Again and again it mentions a dungeonmaster controlling everything, tells us there are characters who are played by others or reminds us that death only means you have to roll up a new character. Every time that happens it kills immersion and destroys all tension that has been built up.
It's the major gripe I have with the comic and in my eyes, a story-breaking flaw. Apparently you're able to come up with convoluted headcanons to rationalize this and explain it away even though it's not consistent the comic. I applaud you for that, because I am unable to do that. If an explanation doesn't fit all the facts in the comic, I will reject it.

What I don't understand about this complaint is that it's true of all fiction. All fiction is made up by someone, all fiction is not real. The tension comes from my investment in the characters and the quality of the writing. We know that goblins has a DM. OK - we also know that ASOIAF has an author. We know that Avatar is a Nickelodeon show that's going to have a happy ending. What is it about Goblins DM that changes things? MMs player would roll up a new character but MM would be dead. Maybe they'll fail to stop Kore and the world will end but it's just a game a bunch of people are playing so why does it matter? Because I'm invested in that world and those characters.

Do you believe in tension in D&D? Or do you dismiss all story telling and 'danger' because you can just roll up a new character?

I'm not trying to harass you or tell you you're wrong - I'm legitimately confused as to why this is a problem?

[Willie the Duck]

Unfortunately, Goblins keeps reminding us that this is the canon truth.

Honestly, I'd frame it more like 'Goblins theoretically has this as a truth, but barely seems to remember that fact itself.'