Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Draconi Redfir]

I question how serious complainers are about D&D to begin with if they wanna just dismiss a campaign world as not measuring up because it was created by a DM. It sounds really dismissive to those of us that enjoy this sort of thing, ya know?

For me it's as simple as not linking the concept of "The fiction is fake, even in it's own universe". For example, every "Left 4 dead" Campaign is shown as a movie poster, and has end credits with words such as "Staring so and so as bill" and "3915 zombies were harmed in the making of this film". This suggest that even in the world of left 4 dead, the events of left 4 dead are completely fictional films, and that everything we play through are in some way just actors on a set.

That's just really immersion-breaking for me, it's hard to put myself into this fictional world and enjoy it, when the fictional world is doubly fiction within it's own fictional world. In general i tend to completely refuse the whole "Movie" idea much like i do with the concept of Goblins being a bunch of nerds at a table, because fiction-ception is not an enjoyable genre for me. I look to fiction to see how that fiction is different from reality, not see how that fiction is actually an even deeper level of fiction in yet another reality.

If i'm playing a D&D game, then that's fine, that's one layer of fiction, the game that i am playing is the real world in the context of the game i am playing. If i'm playing a D&D game that is described as being a game played by members of the Greyhawk setting though, then suddenly i have no investment in it, as it's not even real in the game itself.

maybe it doesn't make sense, but that's just how it is.

[Traab]

I feel like you're overreacting a little bit here, since I don't really feel like it's one way or the other here. It's mostly just that... it's not something that's in focus. It's not the thing driving the story. That doesn't mean that it is or isn't there, just that it's not something really being addressed.

The thing is, it started out leaning HEAVILY onto the people playing a game of D&D angle. It moved away from that which, imo is a good thing, as you can only make so many jokes about "Hey guys! We are D&D players here!" before it gets old. However, it has never refuted the simple fact that team minmax and forgath are players playing a game of D&D. In fact, it continually makes references to that fact. Not all the time, but every now and then blam, it hits us with the reminder that yes, minmax and forgath are player controlled characters. Its just not the focus of the comic anymore, the story they are involved in is the focus, along with what the several groups of npcs are doing and how it will all link together. But that change happened a VERY long time ago. Like, brassmoon city long ago. Yeah they talked about game terms and challenge ratings and such but it was less of a focus, and after leaving brassmoon, it became much more of a rarity to bring up the game rules.

[Agi Hammerthief]

For me it's as simple as not linking the concept of "The fiction is fake, even in it's own universe". For example, every "Left 4 dead" Campaign is shown as a movie poster, and has end credits with words such as "Staring so and so as bill" and "3915 zombies were harmed in the making of this film". This suggest that even in the world of left 4 dead, the events of left 4 dead are completely fictional films, and that everything we play through are in some way just actors on a set.

That's just really immersion-breaking for me, it's hard to put myself into this fictional world and enjoy it, when the fictional world is doubly fiction within it's own fictional world. In general i tend to completely refuse the whole "Movie" idea much like i do with the concept of Goblins being a bunch of nerds at a table, because fiction-ception is not an enjoyable genre for me. I look to fiction to see how that fiction is different from reality, not see how that fiction is actually an even deeper level of fiction in yet another reality.

If i'm playing a D&D game, then that's fine, that's one layer of fiction, the game that i am playing is the real world in the context of the game i am playing. If i'm playing a D&D game that is described as being a game played by members of the Greyhawk setting though, then suddenly i have no investment in it, as it's not even real in the game itself.

maybe it doesn't make sense, but that's just how it is.

while I get your point here...
if it is well executed, I don’t care at which level of fiction within fiction we are at.
>if it is well executed< I can get immersed at all levels.
eta: at least this part is done quite well (or at least not often)

where the comic lost me is playing the „woo, the entire world is at danger“ scenario.
It’s not about the goblins personal quest of getting home anymore, it’s „save the world“ time,
again.

[Willie the Duck]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]
"Because the story is more in line with my personal tastes, it's good that the author changed a major plot point."

<rolls eyes>

I've been through the post of mine that you quoted looking for anything resembling this supposed synopsis, and not found anything that it resembles. I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong post or we have wildly different understandings of what I said.

Regardless, I just asked people if we could not do the whole schoolyard thing.

The thing is, it started out leaning HEAVILY onto the people playing a game of D&D angle. It moved away from that which, imo is a good thing, as you can only make so many jokes about "Hey guys! We are D&D players here!" before it gets old. However, it has never refuted the simple fact that team minmax and forgath are players playing a game of D&D. In fact, it continually makes references to that fact. Not all the time, but every now and then blam, it hits us with the reminder that yes, minmax and forgath are player controlled characters. Its just not the focus of the comic anymore, the story they are involved in is the focus, along with what the several groups of npcs are doing and how it will all link together. But that change happened a VERY long time ago. Like, brassmoon city long ago. Yeah they talked about game terms and challenge ratings and such but it was less of a focus, and after leaving brassmoon, it became much more of a rarity to bring up the game rules.

It continually makes reference, but not all the time, but every now and then? I can't agree or disagree because I don't know how frequently that means. I think we're agreeing on the basics -- the premise that this is a D&D gameworld rather than just a world like the ones one would see in a D&D game has not changed, merely drifted out of primary focus. However, I certainly don't see a bunch of continual reminders. This recent one ("get ready to roll up a new character kinda weird") seems to me to be so minor and innocuous (to my eyes, again my take is that it was "This looks weird, Tomb of Horrors deathtrap weird," so yes a D&D-ism allusion, but not 'nothing matters because if I die I roll up a new character' message behind it), and before that the last one was... I'd have to do an archive trawl to find it because I honestly don't know.

[Kish]

I think the perception that deemphasizing "these characters have players" is a huge change might go with seeing those characters (Minmax, Forgath, and the three awful ex-drow) as the protagonists of the comic. I know tomaO2, specifically, declared early that he didn't believe the goblins had any free will at all in the context of the comic. But Herbert has only ever actually been presented as part of the universe when Forgath was on panel. (And he also strikes me, at least, as pretty blatantly incompetent as a DM, so there's no comment on D&D there, other than "some DMs run really hack-and-slash games and will retaliate vindictively if you ever criticize them.")

[Traab]

I've been through the post of mine that you quoted looking for anything resembling this supposed synopsis, and not found anything that it resembles. I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong post or we have wildly different understandings of what I said.

Regardless, I just asked people if we could not do the whole schoolyard thing.



It continually makes reference, but not all the time, but every now and then? I can't agree or disagree because I don't know how frequently that means. I think we're agreeing on the basics -- the premise that this is a D&D gameworld rather than just a world like the ones one would see in a D&D game has not changed, merely drifted out of primary focus. However, I certainly don't see a bunch of continual reminders. This recent one ("get ready to roll up a new character kinda weird") seems to me to be so minor and innocuous (to my eyes, again my take is that it was "This looks weird, Tomb of Horrors deathtrap weird," so yes a D&D-ism allusion, but not 'nothing matters because if I die I roll up a new character' message behind it), and before that the last one was... I'd have to do an archive trawl to find it because I honestly don't know.

Yeah it was badly phrased, what I meant was, the comic makes references from time to time that continually confirms they are player controlled characters, and the comic has never once contradicted that.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah it was badly phrased, what I meant was, the comic makes references from time to time that continually confirms they are player controlled characters, and the comic has never once contradicted that.

Okay. Again, I disagree that it is even remotely often making reference to them being player controlled characters, only that they are in a D&D game world. Once in a grand blue moon something references players or DMs. But that's again niggling around the term continually, and is really neither here nor there. I'm really more interested in this focus on that the comic hasn't contradicted it. This is true, but why would it contradict it? It wouldn't contradict it unless the author were trying to retcon it out, which doesn't seem to be anyone's goal. It merely has shifted away from the primary focus of the narrative.

[tomaO2]

I know tomaO2, specifically, declared early that he didn't believe the goblins had any free will at all in the context of the comic. But Herbert has only ever actually been presented as part of the universe when Forgath was on panel. (And he also strikes me, at least, as pretty blatantly incompetent as a DM, so there's no comment on D&D there, other than "some DMs run really hack-and-slash games and will retaliate vindictively if you ever criticize them.")

<Scratches head>
Early on? Like 10 years ago? I don't really recall saying that. I certainly haven't said anything about that in recent months. Right now I'm mainly complaining about how the PCs are acting.

*thinks*

No. I'm going to state that I didn't say that. I really can't think of a reason to say that the GAP has no free will in the context of the comic. I don't know why the free will of the goblins would ever have been a topic that I came up with. Back when book 2 was rolling out, I remember being confused by this idea that the GAP could just randomly decide that they had PC levels, and I never believed that Fumbles had PC levels, but I don't remember saying that this meant they didn't have their own agency. I don't really remember ever really caring if they were PCs or NPCs either, despite this being a pretty hot topic for many years.

This is a game, and it is relayed to the players by a DM, but why Herbert is telling the players X thing is entirely up in the air.

Do the goblins say something because Herbert said that is what they said? Or is it that Herbert repeated what they said? Even if I thought the gap were entirely made up by herbert, fictional characters can gain a voice in the author's mind (at the VERY least, since this an RPG, Herbert is going to be rolling dice for the NPC, which can certainly be seen as a way of representing choice on the GAPs part). Kin needed to have her memory erased to break up with Minmax, for instance, she didn't just randomly decide to dump him because author said so. I would likewise think that if Minmax is not a player, that would need some major mention in the story, rather than a statement on twitter. That's just not respecting the audience.

[Typewriter]

New comic is up.

[Willie the Duck]

New comic is up.

Yep. Not much to say about this one. Intermediate step between problem and resolution.

Spoiler

Show

I don't feel that the specific wording MinMax uses in panel #1 is quite right. The love of your life is trapped behind a wall and the obvious method isn't working, and you say '{sigh}, Damn?' but his further actions are completely in character. I note that the whole knocking-out of insert items A on the door that then get eaten by insert items B on the wall is a completely unnecessary second step (why not just have the creatures be in the door?) which some enterprising adventurer could use to circumvent the trap in some way. This really is a nonsensical dungeon designed to be an interesting challenge for adventurers.

I mean, with the setup from the last one, we knew it wasn't going to be as simple as, 'oh, I got it, move the balls, not the heads'-->door opens-->plot thread wraps up.

[Draconi Redfir]

Hope she has Silent-spell... or just some spells that don't require words

[Lord Torath]

She's got an indestructible tail. All she needs to do is remember that fact, and then squish them with it.

[remetagross]

At least that way she can take them on little by little.

[Traab]

At least that way she can take them on little by little.

Until minmax goes full rage and ends up slamming the door like 3 times a round, spawning a half dozen evil bug things each time. Isnt it funny how this trap is exactly the perfect setup for this duo and wouldnt work the other way around? I mean, not only would kin easily solve the problem, even if she couldnt for some reason, minmax would likely have little trouble farming the bug monsters till she tail smashes the door down because he doesnt need to talk to chop head tiny bits. (sorry, I try to include that quote from another comic any chance I get)

[Vinyadan]

chop head tiny bits

Was it the fake dancer on drugs?

[Traab]

Was it the fake dancer on drugs?

Indeed. The more dangerous than she seemed airhead

[Agi Hammerthief]

... Isnt it funny how this trap is exactly the perfect setup for this duo and wouldnt work the other way around? ...

no it isn’t funny, but I guess that was sarcasm.

It’s another trap designed by a DM who thinks it’s her job to (nearly) kill the players.

[remetagross]

New comic is up.

Spoiler

Show

Time to cast a Wall of Something to block off the holes from the balls. Also, yeah, that indestructible tail.

[PontificatusRex]

It’s another trap designed by a DM who thinks it’s her job to (nearly) kill the players.

Well, isn't it the goal of whoever designed the dungeon traps in-universe to kill intruders?

[Traab]

Well, isn't it the goal of whoever designed the dungeon traps in-universe to kill intruders?

Yes but its kind of jarring to me when the traps manage to be perfectly setup to target the group member caught in it. Like here, minmax being unable to talk wouldnt have been much of an issue, and kin could have easily figured out the puzzle. The "trap" would have been utterly worthless aside from wasting time. However, now the trap has captured the wizard leaving her unable to cast spells unless she has the right feats and such for them, with a trap the idiot tank cant figure out because he is an idiot. Just once I want to see that happen btw, to see a trap get sprung that would have been incredibly dangerous to, I dunno, big ears. but it caught thaco and he casually got out of it. Like he gets stuck in a room full of mind controlled orphan 6 year olds armed with daggers trying to kill him.

[Kornaki]

Yes but its kind of jarring to me when the traps manage to be perfectly setup to target the group member caught in it. Like here, minmax being unable to talk wouldnt have been much of an issue, and kin could have easily figured out the puzzle. The "trap" would have been utterly worthless aside from wasting time. However, now the trap has captured the wizard leaving her unable to cast spells unless she has the right feats and such for them, with a trap the idiot tank cant figure out because he is an idiot. Just once I want to see that happen btw, to see a trap get sprung that would have been incredibly dangerous to, I dunno, big ears. but it caught thaco and he casually got out of it. Like he gets stuck in a room full of mind controlled orphan 6 year olds armed with daggers trying to kill him.

Like if there was a room with a bunch of monk statues that have sweet monk gear but a monk happens to fight them and gets their gear and beats them all?

That would be a nice change of pace.

It probably says something about the comic that I can't remember if that was in this dungeon though (I think it was?)

[Vinyadan]

Yes but its kind of jarring to me when the traps manage to be perfectly setup to target the group member caught in it. Like here, minmax being unable to talk wouldnt have been much of an issue, and kin could have easily figured out the puzzle. The "trap" would have been utterly worthless aside from wasting time. However, now the trap has captured the wizard leaving her unable to cast spells unless she has the right feats and such for them, with a trap the idiot tank cant figure out because he is an idiot. Just once I want to see that happen btw, to see a trap get sprung that would have been incredibly dangerous to, I dunno, big ears. but it caught thaco and he casually got out of it. Like he gets stuck in a room full of mind controlled orphan 6 year olds armed with daggers trying to kill him.

Well, MM is still incapable of reading or writing, right? He would have been stuck in there forever. He can't throw Oblivious, and his recognisable armour was too large to fit through a crack. The only option would have been to slide the sword through the crack and hope someone noticed and recognised it.

[Fyraltari]

It’s another trap designed by a DM who thinks it’s her job to (nearly) kill the players.

Of course it is. And it's all Forgath's fault.

[Draconi Redfir]

One of my DM's over the years adjusted a dungeon puzzle so that it could only be solved by my character, and it was just a fun little thing that worked with my story.

i don't see why a DM couldn't specifically design rooms with specific characters in mind. it's not a bad thing.

[Radar]

Honestly, I do not care if the dungeon puzzels and traps are tailored for specific characters. I am also perfectly fine with them being overtly complicated and often nonsensical. In fact, I really like those over the top unusual designs. Ellie has a real talent in devising deadly Rube Goldberg machines. It also has to be said that whatever contraptions are presented, their workings are always taken to the logical end with due attention to details. For some reason this is one of my favorite designs.

[Vinyadan]

Honestly, I do not care if the dungeon puzzels and traps are tailored for specific characters. I am also perfectly fine with them being overtly complicated and often nonsensical. In fact, I really like those over the top unusual designs. Ellie has a real talent in devising deadly Rube Goldberg machines. It also has to be said that whatever contraptions are presented, their workings are always taken to the logical end with due attention to details. For some reason this is one of my favorite designs.

That thing with Kseliss worrying about his newfound sexuality reads pretty different now.

[Lord Torath]

Anyone catch Kin saying "Scwillion"? Something she's obviously picked up from MinMax. She's normally much more precise in her language. Another sign that Kin and MinMax 'see' each other?

[Kornaki]

Anyone catch Kin saying "Scwillion"? Something she's obviously picked up from MinMax. She's normally much more precise in her language. Another sign that Kin and MinMax 'see' each other?

I thought it was a little odd, but I hadn't thought about the connection. Good catch.

[Typewriter]

Yay, forums back up. Also, I think Goblins still hasn't updated...

[Agi Hammerthief]

Yay, forums back up. Also, I think Goblins still hasn't updated...

there was an update since the „scwillion“ page