Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Quild]

"Definitely not green!"

You nailed it.

And since he'd advance right in the trap because he saw the green glove, he'd say that before drawing Oblivion. Perfect, really.

[Lizard Lord]

Wait, what spell level is wall of ice?

[Vinyadan]

Wait, what spell level is wall of ice?

Sor/Wiz 4 https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm

[Dragonus45]

You also might be interested in the 2E Dark Sun Dragon Kings book. It has sensory effects for spellcasting. Like, every time a particular mage casts a spell, there's a blue flash (more noticeable the higher the spell level), the sound of a stream, and the scent of cinnamon.

YES! I also make use of that sometimes as part of a change in spellcasting to make it so that most spells not intended to be secretive, like say charm spells or anything that has been silent/still casted, have visible energy moving about themed to the PC or relevant important NPC. But only starting around level 6 or so depending on edition.

[John Cribati]

You nailed it.

And since he'd advance right in the trap because he saw the green glove, he'd say that before drawing Oblivion. Perfect, really.

There's also the way simpler expedient of just yelling out what he's about to fight when he pulls his sword out for combat.

Lots of simpler ways for that to mess things up, too.

[Lizard Lord]

Sor/Wiz 4 https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm

So that makes Kin at least level 7. Higher level than any of the other characters with class levels (except for Kore).

[Emperor Time]

It interesting that Kin has become that powerful since we last saw her in the maze of many. And means if her and Minmax were to fight against Kore in a team up then there is a good chance that Kore could lose and possibly die since he still weaken and injure from his previous battles.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

So that makes Kin at least level 7. Higher level than any of the other characters with class levels (except for Kore).

Plus presumably a bunch of racial hit die, which is not as strong as class levels, but stronger than nothing.

[John Cribati]

Could racial hit die also have made a difference with the Goblins' class levels as well?

[Kantaki]

Could racial hit die also have made a difference with the Goblins' class levels as well?

I don't think gobbos even have those.
(Well, of course they do, but ≤1 HD don't really matter for this, only higher ones. But who knows, they might get something like .5 levels out of the deal.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Could racial hit die also have made a difference with the Goblins' class levels as well?

Goblins, like humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, orc and kobolds, do not have racial hit dice.

They advance by class level just like _almost every other humanoid. Their class levels are usually just 'Warrior' or 'Expert' or sometimes 'Adept'.

Of course, the artist has very weird ideas on how D&D works so who knows how this works in her setting.

Although, bugbears - related to goblins - do actually have racial hit dice, and are like one of two humanoid races to have them. (The others are lizardfolk.)

[Traab]

So that makes Kin at least level 7. Higher level than any of the other characters with class levels (except for Kore).

Maybe, remember the maze of many has absurdly powerful gear as well, often with special effects. I mean, forgath got his +7 axe even if only while fighting dwarves but seriously, a +7 at level 4?! You know what? Ignore the maze of many, herberts entire campaign is an interesting mix of tomb of horrors and monty hall in that when they see loot its pretty much ALWAYS super awesome, just remember the treasure trap in this very dungeon. Even the gear that survived the lol pearl explosion is still awesome, had they been more cautious they would have walked out of that room with more high level gear than a half dozen dungeons in a normal game. Anyways, my point is, it could be one of her magical items that gives her charges of wall of ice. Or she could be level 7. Considering everyone else is hitting level 5 or thereabouts atm, that isnt TOO much of a disparity I dont think.

[JeenLeen]

Maybe, remember the maze of many has absurdly powerful gear as well, often with special effects. I mean, forgath got his +7 axe even if only while fighting dwarves but seriously, a +7 at level 4?! You know what? Ignore the maze of many, herberts entire campaign is an interesting mix of tomb of horrors and monty hall in that when they see loot its pretty much ALWAYS super awesome, just remember the treasure trap in this very dungeon. Even the gear that survived the lol pearl explosion is still awesome, had they been more cautious they would have walked out of that room with more high level gear than a half dozen dungeons in a normal game. Anyways, my point is, it could be one of her magical items that gives her charges of wall of ice. Or she could be level 7. Considering everyone else is hitting level 5 or thereabouts atm, that isnt TOO much of a disparity I dont think.

Since she was in a timeless place with presumably infinite time to level, I'm surprised she'd be that low level. But disagreement with the other Kins or other reasons could cause her to return sooner. (Just stating that 'soon' and 'time' don't mean much when you're in a temporal-loop demiplane.)

But I agree with this post in general. It seems crazy how specialized and overpowered most of the PCs (goblins, Minmax, Forgoth, Kin) are. Special Paladin armor (and, formerly, axe). Demon-blood powers. A special, semi-sentient graft (even if it eventually turned evil and tried to kill you) along with a neat cohort. Invincible-beard and now a half-golem creature. Sword of Oblivion. Just being a yuan-ti plus invincible-tail, magic familiar, and staff. Cleric casting via Teller status. Plus various powerful magic items.

But that's not really a complaint. I'd complain if I were in a campaign like this, but it makes for an entertaining story. Just it boggles my mind a bit when I consider this as an actual game with level 3-7 characters. The boggling is intellectually fun, though.

[Willie the Duck]

But I agree with this post in general. It seems crazy how specialized and overpowered most of the PCs (goblins, Minmax, Forgoth, Kin) are. Special Paladin armor (and, formerly, axe). Demon-blood powers. A special, semi-sentient graft (even if it eventually turned evil and tried to kill you) along with a neat cohort. Invincible-beard and now a half-golem creature. Sword of Oblivion. Just being a yuan-ti plus invincible-tail, magic familiar, and staff. Cleric casting via Teller status. Plus various powerful magic items.

But that's not really a complaint. I'd complain if I were in a campaign like this, but it makes for an entertaining story. Just it boggles my mind a bit when I consider this as an actual game with level 3-7 characters. The boggling is intellectually fun, though.

Honestly though, this is relatively representative of what I think a lot of people did with 3e when they discovered it*. I mean, now when people talk about 3e, there is much discussion about balance and how to keep the system on-rails, but I remember at-the-time a lot of "why have all these Fiend Folios and Savage Species book s and templates and magic items and stuff if you aren't going to use them?" mentality.
And if the comic was initiated 26 June, 2005 (as Wikipedia tells me), that means that it was conceived back in the 3e heyday.

[JeenLeen]

Honestly though, this is relatively representative of what I think a lot of people did with 3e when they discovered it*. I mean, now when people talk about 3e, there is much discussion about balance and how to keep the system on-rails, but I remember at-the-time a lot of "why have all these Fiend Folios and Savage Species book s and templates and magic items and stuff if you aren't going to use them?" mentality.
And if the comic was initiated 26 June, 2005 (as Wikipedia tells me), that means that it was conceived back in the 3e heyday.

Heh. I had forgotten that attitude.
When I was first introduced to playing D&D, it was with a friend of mine who played it in the navy. He regaled us with stories of his guy who became a half-dragon because of some enchanted armor, and some guy who loved to use Summon Swarm to call bees for various antics.

Thinking of it with that "out of character" perspective, it does seem a good meta level to the comic. And fits with one of their first missions encountering demons, albeit only due to taunting the DM.

[Draconi Redfir]

i always just kinda viewed the world as "low / uncommon magic, but what magic you DO acquire is very powerful." with "Magic" extending to things such as Klik limbs and Kin's tail.

[Traab]

Since she was in a timeless place with presumably infinite time to level, I'm surprised she'd be that low level. But disagreement with the other Kins or other reasons could cause her to return sooner. (Just stating that 'soon' and 'time' don't mean much when you're in a temporal-loop demiplane.)

But I agree with this post in general. It seems crazy how specialized and overpowered most of the PCs (goblins, Minmax, Forgoth, Kin) are. Special Paladin armor (and, formerly, axe). Demon-blood powers. A special, semi-sentient graft (even if it eventually turned evil and tried to kill you) along with a neat cohort. Invincible-beard and now a half-golem creature. Sword of Oblivion. Just being a yuan-ti plus invincible-tail, magic familiar, and staff. Cleric casting via Teller status. Plus various powerful magic items.

But that's not really a complaint. I'd complain if I were in a campaign like this, but it makes for an entertaining story. Just it boggles my mind a bit when I consider this as an actual game with level 3-7 characters. The boggling is intellectually fun, though.

It may have been an issue with the encounters were too low level after a certain point to gain much exp. You can only kill so many normal rats in the inns basement before your level 15 wizard stops seeing much gain from it. I see it like this. The Maze of Many, is actually a surprisingly balanced dungeon in that the subset of infinity it draws on for groups to fight it out, are mostly at a level range where they can compete against each other. Meaning there arent level 1s on their first adventure matched up against epic adversaries. So its likely kin was only able to grind on level 2-5 alts. That being said, its ALSO possible that with the psi max machines in place they could alter that and have constantly upped the level setting for the dungeon to what they could easily farm but still gain good exp from. But even without being able to up the levels, a few dozen retreads would let them not only get as high level as they could, it would also let them cherry pick gear till they had all the best stuff including whatever they could take from other groups like the undead forgath with the rings. So once they got the best stuff and the highest level, they bounced. And lets face it, in this world, level 7 is pretty freaking high end. Not the highest, but high enough to be fairly famous once word gets around. Combine that with oddly powerful gear specially picked for you and thats a spicy setup. Kore is a legendary monster, and as far as we can tell, has NO magic gear, just well crafted regular stuff. Imagine what a level 15 paladin stuffed to the gills with overpowered gear would be like?

My pet theory though is, kin is VERY smart. She eventually figured out what the other kins did to her to some extent and split when she got the chance.

[The Patterner]

My pet theory though is, kin is VERY smart. She eventually figured out what the other kins did to her to some extent and split when she got the chance.

Same here, I don't think she knows exactly what happened, but she figured out that they did something. And was most likely royaly pissed off (taking away her ability to make her own decisions is after all a huge deal).

[Vinyadan]

I think that there were two things that didn't work for her. One is that she knew she trusted MM, but can't remember why, and this trust is even weirder given that he grabbed her leash when they were parting ways. The second thing is that she couldn't see the relationship between herself and her IME, which probably may have led her to put the two things together.
Plus, she likely remembers that the oblivion holes existed. There could have been a discussion about how they could be used to alter relationships. Maybe Ruby even blurted out that she would have done so, if necessary to save someone from herself. After all, she doesn't remember that she did do it.

[John Cribati]

Same here, I don't think she knows exactly what happened, but she figured out that they did something. And was most likely royaly pissed off (taking away her ability to make her own decisions is after all a huge deal).

Probably has to do with acknowledging that her feelings for Minmax were deeper than she felt they should have been, but not remembering a specific reason why, then remembering the oblivion holes that specifically erase things from existence and memory, then seeing the little stones in her IME without having any memory of what they could be.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Minmax found something to make another "K-E-N" necklace with.

"I meant to make you something for your birthday party, as a gift, but I guess I forgot?"

[Douglas]

I think the last thing Kin saw Minmax do is probably one of the biggest factors in why she sought him out. He promised to do whatever she said would prove his feelings to her, and then he kept that promise even though it meant doing the exact thing he most wanted to not do and leaving the next step completely up to her.

Minmax proved that he will go away if she asks him to, and not attempt to force her into anything. That is one of the strongest possible reasons for her to feel safe with him, trust him, and believe he really is different from other humans she's met.

[Draconi Redfir]

My guess is she also has an inkling of a belief that the two can "See" each-other. As the last thing she sees of him is his bloody hand, the exact same spot where she last felt pain. Pain she brushed off as a Spider, but maybe now realizes was more then that.

[Traab]

So im taking bets. Its been a long time since we saw what dies and crew are up to, and this is an author who loves their cliff hangars, so I think the odds are pretty good this is the last of minmax and kin we will see for a bit. Any takers? Will we get the awkward reunion between kin and minmax first? Or is the next comic going to be forgath and company or dies and company?

[Vinyadan]

So im taking bets. Its been a long time since we saw what dies and crew are up to, and this is an author who loves their cliff hangars, so I think the odds are pretty good this is the last of minmax and kin we will see for a bit. Any takers? Will we get the awkward reunion between kin and minmax first? Or is the next comic going to be forgath and company or dies and company?

I'll give you an answer that made me sad when I realized it: I don't care. By now, I'm just reading to see how it ends. There isn't a single storyline that I like right now. It's as if all characters burned out of points when they left Brassmoon (MM right before entering the Maze of M). I expect Dies to also have nothing interesting left, since his whole arc was being in mortal danger and a search for safety, so his main drive is gone. And there is something about the writing that has gotten increasingly bloated*, forced**, and incoherent*** over the years, so that would likely apply to Dies, too, in spite of his final arc being imho quite awesome.

*Exposition about Hell, the cursed guy who punches himself, the love pillars, the sex curse
** MM grabbing the leash, a lvl 4 paladin deciding that he will defeat a superboss on his own instead of looking for help
*** Kore stealthily leaving

[Agi Hammerthief]

I'll give you an answer that made me sad when I realized it: I don't care. By now, I'm just reading to see how it ends.

I‘ll stop reading once the new thread starts, don’t even care how it ends anymore.

[Typewriter]

I still care but I've considered taking a year long break so that I would have at least a few pages that I could read all together. I want resolution but I can't stand waiting for updates that consist of 6 pages of grunting and minimal payoff.

[Willie the Duck]

I still care. I want to see if Eli can pull off a good ending. It might help that this was never one of my top-tier webcomics. The premise was fine but hardly new over a dozen years ago ("They're traditional D&D monsters, but they're the protagonists!"), the primary villain was week in premise, and the personalities of the main cast never followed along when the stakes went from miniscule to fate-of-the-world. Lower expectations means I'm not overly upset that the story hasn't stayed that interesting (the update schedule, on the other hand...). It isn't like Sluggy Freelance where I used to really care about the characters and what happened to them, and then infinite bloat and delay and by the time the strip was supposedly going to end*, I just didn't care one way or the other.
*yes, I know, Pete found a new passion for the thing and is keeping it going, more power to him, hope he finds an audience for it.

[Anteros]

Yeah, I also sorta don't care much about the comic anymore. I'm just reading from inertia at this point. Whenever I see a lot of activity on this thread I tend to assume a new comic is up and check it out, so it only costs me a few seconds every month to keep up with it, but I'm realizing now that I don't even really care.

The comic barely updates, and even when it does, the pacing is so awful that nothing ever happens anyway. It's a real slog to read.

[Draconi Redfir]

...

i genuinely enjoy the comic.

...

Kinda upsetting that that puts me in the minority here.

[John Cribati]

I... don't hate the comic. It's not amazing or anything, but it has its own... je ne se quois* that I connect to somehow.

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*_{I have the distinct feeling that I'm missing several accent marks here}