Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Fyraltari]

I was rereading the page where the Goblins see Kore from far away. They see Kore from a day's travel away. This means, assuming the Goblins have short legs and are taking a long trip on difficult terrain, 10 km (more like 15-20, however). 10 km is more or less the distance between the ground and a flying commercial airliner. There's no way they would have seen him.

The exception is if they have an impassable chasm to their right and Kore is on the other side, so it would take him a day to reach them, but he's actually much closer. And they could simply be seeing the sun reflecting off the metal.

You can see pretty far when you are on mountains so maybe that's that.

[John Cribati]

If we assume a Natural 20 Spot check, "shield as big as a door" makes sense for the distance.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If we assume a Natural 20 Spot check, "shield as big as a door" makes sense for the distance.

In principle a shield of roughly 2x1 meters at 10 km looks the same size as an object 2x1mm at 10 meter. That's like a grain of pepper 2 tables away. You might be able to see it, but to identify it as a person, and then describe it well enough that someone else can identify them from a legend? That's a pretty good roll. And that's without the troubling effect of the atmosphere.

You do see further in the mountains, but that's mostly the effect of the horizon. In a flat plane (on an Earth sized, spherical planet as an adult human sized creature) the furthest point on the ground you can see is about 5 km off. So large enough objects disappear below the horizon before they get too small to see. That's why on a ship it makes sense to put your lookout on top of the mast, ships are big, and their most clearly visible parts sit close to the water.

[Keltest]

In principle a shield of roughly 2x1 meters at 10 km looks the same size as an object 2x1mm at 10 meter. That's like a grain of pepper 2 tables away. You might be able to see it, but to identify it as a person, and then describe it well enough that someone else can identify them from a legend? That's a pretty good roll. And that's without the troubling effect of the atmosphere.

You do see further in the mountains, but that's mostly the effect of the horizon. In a flat plane the furthest point on the ground you can see is about 5 km off. So large enough objects disappear below the horizon before they get too small to see. That's why on a ship it makes sense to put your lookout on top of the mast, ships are big, and their most clearly visible parts sit close to the water.

In fairness, the only reason he was able to identify it as a legend is because Kore has that crazy bizarre shield thing he hauls around with him. Anything sufficiently distinctive is going to make it a lot easier to identify.

[Kornaki]

They're walking up a spiral. A day's travel might be one mile below them, and thirty miles of slowly spiraling up the mountain.

[Fyraltari]

Goblins may also have better eyesight at a distance than humans do. Like eagles.

[Vinyadan]

Goblins may also have better eyesight at a distance than humans do. Like eagles.

That could be the right answer -- they have Darkvision, +2 to Spot, and Alertness.

Otherwise, I think that one wouldn't imagine how counter-intuitive it is to measure travel distance by sight, if you haven't got experience. People one km away look really far, but it's just ten or twenty minutes. A relatively short walk -- 3 km, less than an hour -- takes you beyond the horizon, on flat terrain; and, at that distance, even if they are elevated, people are really hard to see or identify. So it could be a mistake in writing, or a mistake by the goblins (who also have a bonus to Hide and Move Silently, so they could have been missed by Kore).

[Traab]

Im more inclined to call it a mistake in writing done for narrative purposes. Its like in regular comics when you get something stupid like, "I hit him with the force of 15 supernovas!" And yet the blast radius of the impact is ludicrously tiny for such destructive power. Yes you can bend and twist and interpret to make it fit, kinda like we are trying to do here, but its most likely a writer who has little concept of what the numbers involved actually mean but wanted to establish a certain condition. So Kore is visible a days travel away, and superman took a solar system obliterating amount of damage that somehow only made a several mile crater on the moon.

[Murk]

Yes, Elli often has the habit of masking narration as "dialogue".

The rest of the conversation is a good example of it. "It's hard to tell, because he's pretty much a metallic speck on the horizon" is not something any person would say ever. It's weird as a dialogue, but in a written book it wouldn't sound bad.
"Complains looked at the figure on the horizon. That sure is some weird armour, he thought. It was hard to tell, because the figure was pretty much a metallic speck on the horizon, but it looked like he was carrying a metal door on his back," sounds far less unnatural. People don't often do extensive descriptions of what they see in dialogue, especially not if the others can see exactly the same. Narrators do, because readers can't actually look on the horizon.

She often does this, choosing dialogue instead of narration (or, since this is a comic, instead visualisation). It's how we end up with gems such as "It hurts like a sickness", which would be a pretty interesting description if I read it in a book, but is a ridiculous thing to say out loud.


Coming back to the distance and the day of travel - this is something a writer could easily put in a book. "The figure was far away on the horizon, at least a day's travel".
Since this comic has no narrator, and it would be very hard to visualise by drawing, Elli falls back on putting the narration into the dialogue.
It often feels clunky, but I do think it's an interesting method.

[Agi Hammerthief]

at least in dialog there is some motivation to read it.

the comic was well away fron spelling out D&D rules at the time, earlier in the comic it would have been the perfect place for a jolly „hey I rolled a 20 on my perception!“

[Murk]

Oh, true. I like the developments in story telling in the comic.
It's far from perfect at times, but it's very interesting from a meta-perspective.

[Vinyadan]

Back at the beginning, there was a piece of dialogue that was both descriptive and D&D ruley (panel one here: https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/08172006 ).

[Anarchic Fox]

So, the GAP has acquired a new member, who appears to be... a portable plot exposition deliverer. Now the GAP can receive lore dumps at any place and time!

Anyway. According to Ears, they're heading into hell, so I'm calling it now. Tempts Fate, last seen entering hell, is going to show up in the comic itself someday.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

So, the GAP has acquired a new member, who appears to be... a portable plot exposition deliverer. Now the GAP can receive lore dumps at any place and time!

Anyway. According to Ears, they're heading into hell, so I'm calling it now. Tempts Fate, last seen entering hell, is going to show up in the comic itself someday.

So that's what this whole story line is, an elaborate ploy to finally finish the promised Tempts Fate pages without having to take time away from the main comic.

It all makes sense now.

[Keltest]

So that's what this whole story line is, an elaborate ploy to finally finish the promised Tempts Fate pages without having to take time away from the main comic.

It all makes sense now.

Not that I think it likely, but I have to admit, if it did turn out that way, fair play to Elli.

[Vinyadan]

You know, Creepy Crawlers looks oddly familiar.



Edit: there was an update about the animation some ten days ago. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...n#/updates/all

[tomaO2]

*reads new animation update*

Why does this post seem to be more excited over a puppy than the trailer? The fact that most of the work is done should be welcome news for donators. Talking like this is more the kind of thing I would expect when saying, "sorry no news, here is a puppy while you wait." The news is actually fairly good though. It's sounding like it shouldn't be many more months before the release.

Animation sounds like it's going to be a real amateur hour. Especially when the post actually suggests that if there was more money available, they'd just scrap everything that was done and start again from scratch. That is going a lot further than in a previous update where they were saying that they were "a bit disappointed".

Honestly, I don't think it matters too much, I can't imagine many people complaining much about the art. I mean, sure, some people might complain and ask why this is the best that can be done with a budged of over 300k (I'd bet there was probably a fair amount of waste), but we kinda know what to expect since we saw the previews.

They might be mainly worried about poor art if they are really pinning hopes on getting some sort of network deal for a series. I personally also doubt that anyone would pick this up. There are many webcomics out there that have a bigger following and are more family friendly. It's honestly kinda annoying. While Japan, Korea, and even China have embraced webcomic authors. The west just completely ignores it. I want a Girl Genius animation!

[Draconi Redfir]

looks like we've got some comic news.

Awhile ago, I said that a Goblins announcement was coming up. Well... as you can see from the panel here, I've returned to colouring/shading the comic. I've discovered that not being able to do this part of it, was killing a lot of my passion for creating.

I was churning out pages slower and slower, because without being able to do the colouring/shading, it felt less like creating and more like work. Since taking back the full process of creating, I've rediscovered my excitement for drawing. The next page will be up this Monday. <3

if what she says is true, might see more comics more often. the break from colouring and shading seems to have made her more enthusiastic about doing them.

[Kornaki]

I guess. This seems like a great example of someone trying to bite off more than they can chew; coloring and shading is a lot of work, they were already struggling to make comics in a timely fashion, and there's a reason they stopped doing the coloring in the first place.

[Agi Hammerthief]

I guess. This seems like a great example of someone trying to bite off more than they can chew; coloring and shading is a lot of work, they were already struggling to make comics in a timely fashion, and there's a reason they stopped doing the coloring in the first place.

but if she feels like the solution causes worse problems than the original problem, might as well save the expenses.

[Anteros]

Somehow I doubt that taking more work on herself is going to result in getting more accomplished, but I guess we'll see.

[BaronOfHell]

Somehow I doubt that taking more work on herself is going to result in getting more accomplished, but I guess we'll see.

To me it is like the story of the shoe salesman who suddenly becomes a billionaire.

He thinks he has to choose between never selling shoes again, using the money as he pleases, but not really knowing what to do with himself. Or keep on selling shoes and live like he has gained no money.

In the end he choose to create a huge shoe selling business while still maintaining his own work, but now at his leisure, not because he has to.
Similarly, if you have a job you really enjoy, but find out you need help, it doesn't mean you can't do said job anymore, only you now have someone to help you.
If Elli enjoys coloring and shading, but doesn't have the time to do all of it, why not compromise and do some of it herself, and hire someone to do the most of it once she realize she doesn't have the time to it all anyway?

[John Cribati]

Mark Twain said something like "work is doing something that you feel is required to do, while play is whatever you feel is not required."

If Elli thinks it's fun to do the coloring and shading herself, she probably found it less motivating to just be drawing flats or black-and-white. If she can look at her work and get into an "I can't wait start coloring this" mindset, she'll probably do the actual drawing faster. Potentially, anyway.

[Kornaki]

I totally agree the theory sounds plausible. But in practice what will probably happen is Elli will crank out four comics in two weeks then burn out because each one is a ton more work than it used to be.

[John Cribati]

Note my use of "if" and "potentially." I'm being optimistic, not delusional.

[Vinyadan]

I think it's just a matter of money.

The base pay is $125 per page (that's Canadian dollars, so I think that works out to around $100 American).

This doesn't mean it isn't a matter of motivation and enjoyment. I mean, I don't know about artists since I ain't one, but money gives me a lot of motivation and enjoyment.

[Agi Hammerthief]

I think it's just a matter of money.


This doesn't mean it isn't a matter of motivation and enjoyment. I mean, I don't know about artists since I ain't one, but money gives me a lot of motivation and enjoyment.

as litte as the comic updates it doesn‘t look like a huge drain of resources.

[Vinyadan]

I see it in a different way: because the comic scarcely updates, there is far less money, and a 10% loss becomes less sustainable.

[Lissou]

Elli's reasons make sense to me. The Giant said something similar about how he was getting bored with the simple art so he made it more complex, which may sound like it would take longer, but means the comic is happening at all because the Giant is motivated again. Sounds like a similar kind of thing here, taking up more work but that increases the motivation.

[Typewriter]

Ellie continually fails to deliver and periodically places the blame somewhere so that she doesn't have to be held responsible. It's her bad experiences, it's her fans, it's the quality, it's her mental illness, t's too much work so she'll share the load, it's all the side projects, it's not having enough control. It's a free product, I don't care what she does with it, but I do wish she would just be honest and say that she's not good at focusing on her work. That's not an attack - tons of people are bad at schedules, I'm bad at focusing all the time. She works and is supported by a community that provides her with an income regardless of how much effort she puts into her work and she uses that benefit to work at her own leisure - there's nothing wrong with that - but absolutely no part of me believes that there is some external 'fix' that's going to solve her problems. Quit working for your fans, do more work, do less work, whatever - until you hold yourself to a standard you're not going to deliver - stop pretending to try.