Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Draconi Redfir]

for Durkon and Forgath, does it really count as death if you're brought back 6-12 seconds later? They're both alive and kicking right now, in some form or another.

[Quild]

Durkon has been dead for 5 years (or days, YMMV), during which he's been psychologically tortured by different means.

The latest appearance of Chief actually sounded like a rip-off of this.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Maybe K'less? He died the way he would have wanted anyway.

That was a badass way to go. Totally showed that guy who does the eating.

[Vinyadan]

But they died peacefully, not screaming in anguish. It's not how you die, it's how you face death. Also, their deaths remained interesting to the readers.

The starter for this topic was Fumbles seemingly being disintegrated, and that we know he's still alive because whenever someone dies, it's always a painful, ugly, death. No one gets off easy in Goblins.

Not strictly related, but that's something that has bugged me as a Goblins trademark: death that isn't met fighting, and instead is faced from a position of utter powerlessness.

The Goblin without an arm calling for Chief, back at the village. The child dwarf killed by Kore. Arguably the merchant, who dies a supplicant. The blind goblin. Chief. Forgath. There also is a common theme with torture, in that we aren't shown the act of torturing, maybe to avoid excessively disturbing images, maybe to get maximum effect when the result is shown in all its gore. About the showing, there is something similar with Goblinslayer, who literally screams to look at him after he has burnt behind a table.*

These aren't the only deaths, but the many deaths in combat (like K'seliss, as observed, or the many who die in the large room with the rotating tower in the Maze) are much easier to digest, for all their gore.

*this emphasis on looks isn't an exclusive of gore: think of all the posing these guys do, firstly Thac0 striking cool kung fu poses.

[tomaO2]

No, I believe that is related. Characters have to know they are going to die. Do they always know? I think they do. Maybe there is some background random that doesn't, but it's not obvious. The blind goblin is a good example. Kore could have easily killed him before he knew he was about to die, but the setup had him in absolute terror.

I actually really enjoyed that particular death, as I though the way it was done was truly unique, but the point remains.

You don't just die, you have to know you are dying, and despair on it. It's rarely a surprise.

Wait, now that I think about it, there is one person that managed to kill quickly. Dies Horribly. That glove kilk could kill you before you knew what was happening. Ironic that the goblins destined for a horrible death was so damn good at killing. Like, even scrolling back, when he was fighting the Fat Drow. Dies held the kilk and it shot a single blast that murdered him. I think he was at full hit points too. That was really quite the unfair death, in all honesty. Didn't even go into negative hit points. He just died. I think that counts as the fastest death for a semi important character in the story.

Hmm, the other adventuring party really gets the short end of the stick a a lot. Two complete wipe outs, and a lot of them were in absurdly unfair situations. I don't think I'd want to play with a dm that just drops a murder kilk that feeds on blood in the middle of the party just to watch you all die.

I just watched how the drows died again. The other two died comic deaths. They were funny. Man, I'd forgotten that. They didn't care that they were dying, they were basically ignoring the injuries, like a proper adventuring party should. I assume that the adventurers being unconcerned about dying was a deliberate choice to show how how the adventures were monsters compared to the goblins, and to set up for Forgath switching sides. It was completely different to how they died the second time, in the familiar state of complete horror.

I remember now that I had started getting annoyed with how Forgath and Minmax were acting more like people, rather than players, and I remember that Elli actually decided at some point that it was actually the case that this was the case. I think that was a decision on Elli's part to do away with the humor of death and focus solely on grimdark. A bad one, in my opinion. I think it would have worked better if the adventurers had stayed a more lighthearted aspect, in contrast to the world around them.

[Draconi Redfir]

Durkon has been dead for 5 years (or days, YMMV), during which he's been psychologically tortured by different means.

The latest appearance of Chief actually sounded like a rip-off of this.

wait what? The Dwarf? that was a few weeks at best...

oohhh you mean the wizard... right. Well, it did sort of end on a bittersweet moment, with him being with Larian and all. No real sign of torture either, just being stuck in a gem with the one he loves.

Dies held the kilk and it shot a single blast that murdered him. I think he was at full hit points too. That was really quite the unfair death, in all honesty. Didn't even go into negative hit points. He just died. I think that counts as the fastest death for a semi important character in the story.

keep in mind that the Drow was level 1, presumable rogue or ranger. i'd estimate maybe 12 HP at most.

[Anarchic Fox]

Not strictly related, but that's something that has bugged me as a Goblins trademark: death that isn't met fighting, and instead is faced from a position of utter powerlessness.

My best guess is that Ellipsis is terrified of death. Not just afraid of it like normal, but in abject terror. This might also explain the "beautiful death" nonsense, which squicked me severely. However, detracting from this hypothesis is the considerable grace with which she faced her embolism. Ellipsis faced death far better than most of her characters do.

[Quild]

wait what? The Dwarf? that was a few weeks at best...

oohhh you mean the wizard... right. Well, it did sort of end on a bittersweet moment, with him being with Larian and all. No real sign of torture either, just being stuck in a gem with the one he loves.

I meant Durkon.
There's a joke in #1136 about how much time he spent dead, with difference between comic time and real time.
(and then something that looks similar one year later in Goblins).


During that week, or 5 years and a half, Durkon has been kept prisonner of the vampire's mind. In an uncomfortable posture. Seeing the vampire steal his memories and making him lectures about his life. He has seen the vampire pose as a parody of himself and his friends fall for it.

That surely is less gruesome than what Elli would have write, but still, it's not an happy moment in Oots. And not a 6-12secs moment.

[Anarchic Fox]

I meant Durkon.
There's a joke in #1136 about how much time he spent dead, with difference between comic time and real time.
(and then something that looks similar one year later in Goblins).


During that week, or 5 years and a half, Durkon has been kept prisonner of the vampire's mind. In an uncomfortable posture. Seeing the vampire steal his memories and making him lectures about his life. He has seen the vampire pose as a parody of himself and his friends fall for it.

That surely is less gruesome than what Elli would have write, but still, it's not an happy moment in Oots. And not a 6-12secs moment.

That was a joke about how long OotS arcs take to resolve in real life versus the time they take in-comic. It wasn't time dilation for added suffering.

[Draconi Redfir]

Again though, Durkon wasn't really "Dead-dead" for very long at all.

He died, immediately came back as a vampire, was alive inside the vampire for awhile, died again, and immediately came back as alive. There was no real situation where he was in the afterlife for an extended period of time while his body was decaying and not moving. So can you really call that dying?

Personally i'd argue that he was being "Tourtured" by the vampire spirit too. Held captive sure, but i never really saw any moment where he was suffering because of it.

[Fyraltari]

Personally i'd argue that he was being "Tourtured" by the vampire spirit too. Held captive sure, but i never really saw any moment where he was suffering because of it.

I did see one.

[Draconi Redfir]

New comic is up.

Spoiler

Show

Vorpal ain't dead! And don't call him Fumbles.

[Kornaki]

Spoiler

Show

is this a cheap attempt to skip actual character development?

[Vinyadan]

Something I've only noticed now: Vorpal has been the only one to take the chance to change his name. The other Goblins kept the old one, even though it shackled them to a destiny they were inadequate for (Chief) or was almost insulting (Complains). Big Ears also doesn't have ears any more. This in spite of Complains breaking the rules by opening the chest and hiding in it, and using the ink to mark his own IME, again, against the rules.

[Agi Hammerthief]

is this a cheap attempt to skip actual character development?

No, it is character development.
also Vorpal had plenty of that already that it wouldn’t be offensive if this was a bit of a shortcut for more.

still, I had hoped the comic was getting beyond the meta gaming.

[Anarchic Fox]

This is my favorite page since Kin's fight with Kore. Sorry for deadnaming you, Vorpal.

[Draconi Redfir]

i'm sure we'll get a bit of information on the next page. maybe someone else touches a clock and we see it from their perspective.

[Vinyadan]

"Character sheet", that brings us back. https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/06302005

So, is Complains evil now? I was thinking about how the voices sound to the gargoyle, which could be a way to tell alignments -- Ears is LG, so he sounds like a celestial, while Hill Giants are CE.

[tomaO2]

Now that the name has been brought up it's actually reminded me...

When is the last time Vorpal fumbled his role? The story has made a very big deal about how you can't escape your Fate with Saves a Fox and Dies. Names are supposed to be immutable traits or an unbreakable foretelling. Hell, even Forgath could not escape his fate. Elli gave massive casting powers to someone and it feels like she wants to ignore the fact that this person should be screwing up the spells cast almost constantly.

I'm not a super fan of bringing in deadnaming to the culture of Goblins, given how their naming convention works. On the other hand, it's not like they haven't broken multiple other laws like taking items from the chest, or becoming adventurers to begin with, so I guess it fits in that context. Sigh, I was really excited about the chest taking when it happened, and I had been waiting for some sort of consequences to happen from that, but if Complains becomes Chief, then I would guess that it never had any meaning at all, which would be disappointing.

Also, only 10 days since the last update. That makes the fifth update in a row that has been under two weeks, and the second that has been within 10 days. Once more and I think this will make the longest streak since, I don't know when. If Elli can manage updates every 10 days, that would be pretty respectable for her. Not the goal she wanted of once a week, but respectable. Once every 10 days means 3 updates a month.

I feel like this is a setup for one of those walls of text to fish out backstory that Elli doesn't want to draw. Been awhile since we got one.

Also, here is his old background sheet he made, will probably become relevant soon.
https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/09032005

[Keltest]

In 3.5, spellcasting doesnt have a fumble chance, AFAIK. Its part of why a lot of groups dont like fumble tables: because it disproportionately affects martial characters, who are already performing poorly compared to casters.

Indeed, a spellcaster is actually a really good choice for somebody who cant roll a d20 to save their life.

[tomaO2]

Huh. That is really interesting.

Another bit of information, the levitation potion was put on Vorpal's mustache. That was likely the reason he put it away.

Anyway, Elli got some backlash for using Fumbles to talk about deadnaming.

@Elli_Trans
I probably should mention that since Vorpal isn't transgender, "Fumbles" isn't technically a deadname. I just figured the clip could be used to tweet that message.

For instance, knowing that it's called "gender dysphoria" and that other people also feel it, is very comforting and healing. If non-trans people start using something like "deadname" to represent the painless, easily dealt with, concept of a name change, then suddenly my...

...crushing reaction to my own deadname, feels invalidated or ridiculous. When you water down the meaning of "deadname", you take away the comforting affect the word has as a trans-specific tool. You take away some of the power we have over our own difficulties.

In other words, I think this means you will not be infracted for saying Fumbles? I mean, maybe a mod needs to mention if this is the case. Just so everyone knows where the line is, and no one is getting infracted unfairly.

[Anarchic Fox]

Hey Ellipsis, there's at least one trans person out there you don't speak for, namely me.

_{Please don't start a fight over this remark.}

[Anteros]

Huh. That is really interesting.

Another bit of information, the levitation potion was put on Vorpal's mustache. That was likely the reason he put it away.

Anyway, Elli got some backlash for using Fumbles to talk about deadnaming.




In other words, I think this means you will not be infracted for saying Fumbles? I mean, maybe a mod needs to mention if this is the case. Just so everyone knows where the line is, and no one is getting infracted unfairly.

Are you talking about on the Goblins forums? Because I doubt anyone is going to care if you say Fumbles here, and anyplace moderated by Elli herself is probably going have more to do with her mood at any given moment than actual consistency.

Also this:

If non-trans people start using something like "deadname" to represent the painless, easily dealt with, concept of a name change, then suddenly my...

...crushing reaction to my own deadname, feels invalidated or ridiculous. When you water down the meaning of "deadname", you take away the comforting affect the word has as a trans-specific tool. You take away some of the power we have over our own difficulties.

is garbage logic. No one group has the right to specific coping mechanisms.

[John Cribati]

I have never heard the term "deadname" used outside of trans-specific discussions. As far as I know, the word was coined by the trans community to be used in a transgender-specific context. So yeah, I feel like they do have the right to say "this is our word, please use it in the proper context or not at all."

[Typewriter]

Not to be a thread nanny but I feel like this thread just got back from an off topic discussion about trans issues that resulted in a mod stepping in and reminding us to stay on the topic of the comic. Not sure we want to side tangent into another non-comic tangent again already.

[Anteros]

I have never heard the term "deadname" used outside of trans-specific discussions. As far as I know, the word was coined by the trans community to be used in a transgender-specific context. So yeah, I feel like they do have the right to say "this is our word, please use it in the proper context or not at all."

There are definitely other communities that do the same thing, even if they don't call it a "deadname".

Not to be a thread nanny but I feel like this thread just got back from an off topic discussion about trans issues that resulted in a mod stepping in and reminding us to stay on the topic of the comic. Not sure we want to side tangent into another non-comic tangent again already.

Well it's hard to avoid when the author of the comic keeps using the comic itself as her soapbox, but yeah you're probably right.

[Keltest]

Well it's hard to avoid when the author of the comic keeps using the comic itself as her soapbox, but yeah you're probably right.

I mean, you dont need any special reason to hate your name when its something like Fumbles. Thats basically a shorter version of being called "guy who cant do anything competently." Who wouldnt hate it? Heck, a lot of the goblin names being really dumb was an early source of jokes for the comic, to the point where one character is named "complains of names".

Had somebody not brought up twitter, i wouldnt have even noticed any soapbox.

[tomaO2]

It's not like I just post on every thing Elli has said that I disagree with on twitter. I only do it when it's related to the comic.


Deleted. This is not the correct forum to be asking about Elli and deadnaming. I'll ask on the Site Issues forum instead. That is also where I should be asking about Vorpal. Sorry.


In additional news, which is relevant to the update scheduling, Elli has gotten the money needed for her voice surgery, and is currently in quarantine in South Korea. I think that means she can't draw for the next two weeks, as I don't think she brought all her drawing supplies with her, and it and probably not for awhile after, since she'll be in recovery, so I think fast updates are over.

EDIT: Sorry, misread the post. It says

"When I got to Korea for my voice surgery, this is the kinda place I will be locked in for 14 days, before my surgery."

I thought she said she had actually gotten there, and was in lockdown. She has not gone to Korea yet.

[Keltest]

Several of us were thinking about deadnaming as soon as we read Vorpal asking to not be called Fumbles anymore. I certainly was. I've read on forums less strict than this one that misgendering, and stuff, for fictional characters is against the rules.

People get mad about you saying Thunt, even though that's also a pen name, not real. I feel justified in bringing it up, and asking if there are any issues. I have been already infracted for not being trans positive enough, so I don't need another one.

In additional news, which is relevant to the update scheduling, Elli has gotten the money needed for her voice surgery, and is currently in quarantine in South Korea. I think that means she can't draw for the next two weeks, as I don't think she brought all her drawing supplies with her, and it and probably not for awhile after, since she'll be in recovery, so I think fast updates are over.

You may not be aware, but Thunt, while technically a pen name, was just a shortened version of Ellipsis' at-the-time given name. Hence why it is included as part of the deadname.

[Yuki Akuma]

The thing about 'Thunt' is that, while it is indeed a pen name, it's a pen name based on Ellipsis's previous name, Tarol Hunt. So using it is still similar to deadnaming her.