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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I agree with the potential as an interesting BBEG minion/mount at their CR. At their RHD though?

    LA: -0 for both, by a long ways.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Epic amount of HD is pretty much unplayable.

    I think a big issue that this thread has is the whole 1 RHD = 1 ECL. While you can get some wonky CRs (usually with "non-associated class levels") the 3.5 team wasn't too bad on CR balance overall. Most RHD only cost 0.25 CR per HD meaning a pile of bad HD does not make a threatening monster. Not sure why they made most RHD so bad and then made Dragon/Outsider almost borked (2:1 ratio for those might almost be OP).

    Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    [CENTER]Mivilorn

    Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.
    WotC just wants us to know that most dogs go to Hell.


    From a PC perspective, these bad dogs are truly bad. LA -0 / -0 respectively.

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    -0 for both. Useful as a mount, but not a PC.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Epic amount of HD is pretty much unplayable.

    I think a big issue that this thread has is the whole 1 RHD = 1 ECL. While you can get some wonky CRs (usually with "non-associated class levels") the 3.5 team wasn't too bad on CR balance overall. Most RHD only cost 0.25 CR per HD meaning a pile of bad HD does not make a threatening monster. Not sure why they made most RHD so bad and then made Dragon/Outsider almost borked (2:1 ratio for those might almost be OP).

    Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.
    I did a little bit of this for MM dragons over at Myth-Weavers. The idea was to fit the abilities and features of a CR~20 dragon into a 20-level class. I have no idea how well I did, though.

    I also made a bunch of Savage progressions using Reassigned LA's for MM monsters. No idea how good these are, either.

    I'm not very comfortable with the formatting here at the Playground, so I don't really know how to convert them.

    -----

    Also, mivilorn LA -0 (both types). Could be a good mount, but anyone riding one would look much less silly riding just about anything else: that's a really goofy-looking dog.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2018-10-07 at 11:53 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Mivilorn: LA -0 for both of them. Ick. Not much else to say about 24 RHD with the abilities of 10 RHD.

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    -0 for both. Useful as a mount, but not a PC.
    Iím not sure Iíd even go that far. You ever try to maneuver a Huge critter around a battlefield? Even if youíre not in an actual dungeon, thereís lots of ways for a battlefield that isnít basically an open field to be less than accessible to a Huge thing.

    Not going to be a problem every single day, but itís a problem a noticeable amount of the time. Because, you know, mounted combat needed to be harder for some reason.

    (I guess that this argument is, to be fair, relatively GM-dependent. But I like complex and full battlefields and tend to request the same when I feel like I have any pull to do so, so that colors my interpretation. No-items-Fox-only-Final-Destination is boring to me!)

    But yeah. Trivial -0. Iím basically comfortable saying that anything (yeah, ANYTHING) that starts in Epic and doesnít have the ability to immediately qualify for Epic spellcasting (or some equivalentómaybe, MAYBE divine ranks) is -0.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.
    You forgot winter wolves and legally-distinct-from-wargs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Not sure why they made most RHD so bad and then made Dragon/Outsider almost borked (2:1 ratio for those might almost be OP).
    Because dragons are awesome. And angels, demons, slaadi, etc are pretty impressive, too, but they have planar aid for that.

    Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.
    Also more broken monsters. As WotC has repeatedly (and, for once, correctly) noted, the factors which make a monster capable of ruining a player's day are not the same as those which make a player ruin a DM's day. A 1/day ability and an at-will ability aren't much different for CR, but it can make a big difference for ECL. (To say nothing of things like flight or not having hands, which are barely more than flavor for most monster encounters but drastically change how a PC plays.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    WotC just wants us to know that most dogs go to Hell.
    You take that back.
    But seriously, with the ratio of evil monsters to good, it's no wonder the Balance is constantly tipping sinister.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    ...

    Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.
    Pathfinder uses CR as ECL.

    We use it for our games. Usually my monster characters are weaker overall. Though the campaign where another player played a ghoul showcased the other side of that coin.

    Even then though their superpowers and extra hp didn't scale well against the truly high level threats late game.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    24RHD wihtout some impressive innate casting or equally game changing ability is pretty much an automatic LA -0 from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Because between hell hounds, howlers, yeth hounds, and death dogs there weren't quite enough supernatural evil canines.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    You forgot winter wolves and legally-distinct-from-wargs.
    There's also charnel hound, gravehound, guulvorg, shadow mastiffs, thrym hound, void hounds and vorr.

    ...and I'm almost sure there's more lurking out there.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Not sure how a CR = ECL would work but I almost wonder at this point if it would give us more "playable" monsters.
    If you wanted to go hard on the "ECL is less than HD" thing without breaking the rules of the game, you could do something like Turn Resistance but for beef: for the purposes of effects that care about hit dice, this monster has +X hit dice, and +X to these skills, +X hit points, X feats, and so on. But it would need massive tweaking to work and I'm not sure it's worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Yet again, I want to throw together a spreadsheet which lets me quickly calculate (or at least closely estimate) the effects that losing X hit dice of type Y, then use that to figure out how many HD you'd need to chop off of these creatures before they become plausible character choices.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

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    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yet again, I want to throw together a spreadsheet which lets me quickly calculate (or at least closely estimate) the effects that losing X hit dice of type Y, then use that to figure out how many HD you'd need to chop off of these creatures before they become plausible character choices.
    Offhand, I'd say at least 10 RHD, probably closer to 20 RHD.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Necronaut


    Please consider the following excerpts from the necronaut's entry:

    Gargantuan Undead (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
    Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
    Alignment: Always chaotic evil
    Necronauts are created by demons
    A necronaut speaks Infernal and rarely bothers to learn other languages.
    Welcome to WotC, where double-checking whether you got the right fiendish language is taboo.


    Anyways, other than that the necronaut is a fairly uninteresting monster. It has a fairly unoriginal 'eat corpse to get HP back' ability, Trample, Unholy Toughness, and a weird vulnerability to undead-creating spells, all of which is made meaningless by 32 undead RHD. -0 LA unless this somehow loses a few dozen hit dice.

    also why couldn't a 'necronaut' have been an undead astronaut? they wasted a perfectly good name!
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-10-10 at 06:12 AM.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Needletooth Swarm


    Because life is pain and RHD plentiful, have another update!

    It's a swarm, it's tiny (which is the worst size a swarm can have), it consists of animals, and it's got eleven RHD. Its sole interesting ability is Wounding, which is hilariously insignificant at this level.

    Seriously though: just play a bat swarm and get basically the same package with flight, immunity to weapon damage, blindsense, and eight less RHD.

    Obvious -0, Jurassic Park II reference value aside.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  16. - Top - End - #166
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OgresAreCute's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yet again, I want to throw together a spreadsheet which lets me quickly calculate (or at least closely estimate) the effects that losing X hit dice of type Y, then use that to figure out how many HD you'd need to chop off of these creatures before they become plausible character choices.
    Making RHD = CR without reducing other stats or abilities would be a good starting point for many creatures probably.


    And yeah both the Bone-Cone and the Feral Chicken Gang are pretty much unplayably bad. -0 for both.
    Known among friends as "Ogres"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

  17. - Top - End - #167
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post

    Please consider the following excerpts from the necronaut's entry:
    (Quotes)

    Welcome to WotC, where double-checking whether you got the right fiendish language is taboo.
    That made me laugh. And facepalm.

    Both -0
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    DMG 3.5e page 41:
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  18. - Top - End - #168
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    These both suck. -0.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I recall the needletooth swarm having a reputation as being OP/imbalanced in either 4e or 5e, but that obviously isnít because they made for OP 3.5 PCs.

    Consider the necronautís picture for a moment. See how itís grasping a humanoid, who appears to be itty-bitty in comparison? Consider the size of said humanoidís head and the skull it must contain, then consider the size of the skull-shaped objects that appear to make up the necronautís body. The skull-shaped objects appear to mostly be made up of roughly human-skull-shaped skulls, nothing super-obviously fiendish or aberrant or so on.

    Iím forced to conclude that necronauts are made entirely by running through endless iterations of the ďAgainst the GiantsĒ module.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Please consider the following excerpts from the necronaut's entry:

    Welcome to WotC, where double-checking whether you got the right fiendish language is taboo.
    No, necronauts are just a-holes. They spend all their time fighting in the Nine Hells, and tell their overlords that if they want to go to Hell, they should speak the language.

    also why couldn't a 'necronaut' have been an undead astronaut? they wasted a perfectly good name!
    It's out-of-genre. Now, an undead sailor, or a sailor on the Underworld's rivers...
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    No, necronauts are just a-holes. They spend all their time fighting in the Nine Hells, and tell their overlords that if they want to go to Hell, they should speak the language.


    It's out-of-genre. Now, an undead sailor, or a sailor on the Underworld's rivers...
    A sailor could have worked. If I'm not making stuff up, I believe that "astronaut" is specifically a corruption of "Argonaut."
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Necronauts remind me of the sacrificial bone alters from Warlock in the world of wizards (really cool book for anyone that wants to check it out) in which they were platforms to spawn evil demon undead. But ya that thing is bad unless you are using it as your alter for performing necromancy in which case having an alter that can kill things is kind of cool. Also sacrifices and similar stuff is to complicated and involved for your average demon spawn of the abyss so I am ok with the language... -0 for it anyway.

    I think the needletooth could be a cool familiar if they stat'ed up a single one especially for a more tribal caster, but the swarm is horrabad.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Yeah these aren't really worth much discussion. LA -0, next.

    also why couldn't a 'necronaut' have been an undead astronaut? they wasted a perfectly good name!
    Atropus (the undead visitor moon) from Elder Evils would have been the perfect setting for undead astronauts.

    I mean you literally go into space to visit an airless moon for the final confrontation.

    Wasted opportunity indeed.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    A sailor could have worked. If I'm not making stuff up, I believe that "astronaut" is specifically a corruption of "Argonaut."
    It's not. From Ancient Greek, "astron" (ἄστρον) is "star" and "nautes" (ναύτης) means "sailor"--it's a compound after the pattern of aquanaut and aeronaut (and of course, Argonaut follows the same pattern).

    I think the excerpts from the necronaut's description say enough: LA -0. And the same for the needletooths. I started thinking that necronauts might be up there as deserving the highest negative LA... but then I thought of the tarrasque.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    LA -0 for both of these. blech

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    These both suck. -0.
    Agreeing. Heartily. -0 for both.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Concur, -0 for the both of them.

    The Night Twist is next, and looks to be at least a little more interesting to discuss.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    The necronaut looks like something from a horror-themed tower defense game.

    And that's about the only use I can see for either monster. -0/-0

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Completely agree LA -0 in both cases.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    It's not. From Ancient Greek, "astron" (ἄστρον) is "star" and "nautes" (ναύτης) means "sailor"--it's a compound after the pattern of aquanaut and aeronaut (and of course, Argonaut follows the same pattern).
    Aside from the fact that they were sailing using the Argo, not through it.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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