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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Ogre, Skullcrusher


    It ain't ogre till its ogre?

    Skullcrushers are 8 RHD giants. The four HD over their non-crushing cousins are made up for by a +4 strength bonus, better mental stats, free weapon and armor proficiencies, rock throwing, and Improved Grapple and Two-Weapon Fighting as bonus feats. Also interestingly enough the natural armor is worse than the default ogre's.

    Does this justify missing out on four class levels? I'd be inclined to answer 'no'. A regular ogre is already making up most of the difference in damage with the extra power attack it can use, the skullcrusher's bonus feats are so-so, and the weapon proficiencies are something any self-respecting melee warrior would already have.

    If a few of the RHD had been removed, I'd give skullcrusher ogres a reasonable +0. As they are now, -0 seems to be the best assignment.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Could have been workable for a very boring melee build with 5 or maybe 6 hit dice. Also, these are less cute.

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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    The skullcrusher gets a -jaundice.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Im not an expert on martial arts, but that pic looks weird. Dont you think hed get better leverage holding the mace longer?

    Right, LA or something. 8 RHD needs more than just numbers to make me happy. Skullcrushers have no real tricks, just numbers. -0.
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Concur, -0. Too many RHD, insufficient benefits for the number of RHD. Par for the course when it comes to to things with the Giant type.
    Also, CR of 5, 8 RHD, and a WotC LA of +3, for a WotC ECL of 11 ... while it's CR5

    Wait, why does the generic one have Mounted Combat?
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Concur, -0. Too many RHD, insufficient benefits for the number of RHD. Par for the course when it comes to to things with the Giant type.
    Also, CR of 5, 8 RHD, and a WotC LA of +3, for a WotC ECL of 11 ... while it's CR5

    Wait, why does the generic one have Mounted Combat?
    Apparently they ride war elephants. That is probably a bit less effective in 3.5 than it was in RL, but eh, probably enough to crush most NPC soldiers.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Apparently they ride war elephants. That is probably a bit less effective in 3.5 than it was in RL, but eh, probably enough to crush most NPC soldiers.
    Well, if we're talking NPC warriors who are, most commonly, levels 1-3, then a single war elephant can probably solo an army.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Minus zero would seem the only reasonable choice.

    Makes me want to go back in time, sit the designers down, and MAKE them play monster HD as class levels so they know what they did.

    And to, of course, smack them with the rolled up newspaper while I rub their nose in the monster HD to class level equivalency pile they made.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    +4 HD for two bad feats? That thing is basically an Ogre Fighter.

    I guess if Fighters are par for your game, then it might be +0.

    As the thread's target tier is T3, it's LA -0.

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Makes me want to go back in time, sit the designers down, and MAKE them play monster HD as class levels so they know what they did.
    The designers gaze back at you, and calmly say: "What we did was make a fun monster for the PCs to kill. It's not our problem that you want to use it wrong."

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Im not an expert on martial arts, but that pic looks weird. Dont you think hed get better leverage holding the mace longer?
    Yes. With some weapons, holding the weapon closer to the dangerous end helps in close quarters, but I'm not sure maces are among them...and the ogre doesn't seem to be in close combat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    The designers gaze back at you, and calmly say: "What we did was make a fun monster for the PCs to kill. It's not our problem that you want to use it wrong."
    Yeah, we'd need to specifically find the designer who chose level adjustments and specifically ask him/her what they were thinking.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yeah, we'd need to specifically find the designer who chose level adjustments and specifically ask him/her what they were thinking.
    Speaking of which, the skullcrusher's default LA is +3. Have fun being a full iterative behind the party fighter, I guess?
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-10-25 at 11:09 AM.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I'm pretty sure monster ECL got handwaved through without any play testing at all, far less an individual case by case assessment for each monster.

    Okay, I get not bothering to work out LA for non-sentients, or for monsters that have no native means of communication.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    ...

    The designers gaze back at you, and calmly say: "What we did was make a fun monster for the PCs to kill. It's not our problem that you want to use it wrong."
    Except they barely did even that.

    Additionally it was they who laid monster progression alongside PC progression, dropped level benefits across each (skill points, feats, etc), then had the audacity to type up descriptions of how monsters and PCs progress the same way.

    If wizards are quadratic and fighters are linear, what's that make monsters?

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Except they barely did even that.

    Additionally it was they who laid monster progression alongside PC progression, dropped level benefits across each (skill points, feats, etc), then had the audacity to type up descriptions of how monsters and PCs progress the same way.

    If wizards are quadratic and fighters are linear, what's that make monsters?
    Varies widely, based on the monster in question.
    Some are better than a wizard, others are worse than a fighter.

    So ... maybe monsters are the square root of -1.
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  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    So ... maybe monsters are the square root of -1.
    Nice.

    To be fair, though, everything else in the game is also the square root of -1.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    LA -0 for the Skullcrusher. Its stats are not that great for 8 RHD, crappy natural AC for the same, 2 BAB and 3 bonus feats behind the straight Fighter, and nothing special or interesting to make up the difference beyond Large size-and there are many easier ways to get that, most of which will not cost you more than about 1 ECL. Hard pass as PC material goes.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-10-25 at 12:21 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    totally -0. just take fighter levels on your normal ogre.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Except they barely did even that.
    Some monsters do have gimmicks that make them interesting to fight. Others...well, every monster manual has more than a fair share of beatsticks, some with a couple of little abilities or interesting lore to back them up, some which don't. Skullcrushers fall into the last category.
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  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I would play an ogre mage over a skullcrusher ogre ten times out of nine. LA -0 and a disapproving snort. *Snort*.
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  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    If the HD were less, I could see LA +1. As is, I'd vote LA +0.

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    ...I wonder sometimes if at least some of 3.5's imbalance was on purpose, honestly.
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  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    With Ogres reasonable at +0, the Skullcrusher seems like a -0. I'd rather put 4 levels of fighter on my Ogre than play a Skullcrusher.

    Edit: Upon further thought and running some stats, I'll go for +0. I still wouldn't want to play one, but I don't think they're worth some-unknown-number-of-negative-LA. So not -0.
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  23. - Top - End - #293
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...I wonder sometimes if at least some of 3.5's imbalance was on purpose, honestly.
    Interesting hypothesis. What makes you say that?
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  24. - Top - End - #294
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I think the -0 is being applied too liberally here. I know the -0 vs +0 debate was just revived recently, but the ogre skullcrusher isn't as bad as many other truly deserving -0 creatures. For example, an initiator build wouldn't be so bad. Coming in at it's 9th HD it starts with 3rd level maneuvers. Sure, it isn't ideal, but there are uses for it and it would certainly fit into a bruiser role. I don't agree that it is -0. I vote +0.
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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  25. - Top - End - #295
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    I think the -0 is being applied too liberally here. I know the -0 vs +0 debate was just revived recently, but the ogre skullcrusher isn't as bad as many other truly deserving -0 creatures. For example, an initiator build wouldn't be so bad. Coming in at it's 9th HD it starts with 3rd level maneuvers. Sure, it isn't ideal, but there are uses for it and it would certainly fit into a bruiser role. I don't agree that it is -0. I vote +0.
    -0 doesn't necessarily mean it's unplayably bad.
    -0 means that it is not equivalent to a T3-T4 class of level equal to its RHD.
    -0 is a range.


    Sure, there are certainly monsters that are massively worse for their RHD than the skullcrusher ogre.
    But that doesn't mean the skullcrusher is somehow less bad for its RHD.
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  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    I think the -0 is being applied too liberally here. I know the -0 vs +0 debate was just revived recently, but the ogre skullcrusher isn't as bad as many other truly deserving -0 creatures. For example, an initiator build wouldn't be so bad. Coming in at it's 9th HD it starts with 3rd level maneuvers. Sure, it isn't ideal, but there are uses for it and it would certainly fit into a bruiser role. I don't agree that it is -0. I vote +0.
    The Skullcrusher is not terrible, but the balance point of the the thread is explicitly tier 3. This monster is (with just cause) being compared unfavorably to a basic Ogre at 4 of the same RHD, making up the difference in pure Fighter levels (tier 5, or 4 using variants, ACFs and dead level junk to squeeze every last ounce of use). Being compared unfavorably to a 3.5 Fighter is definitely not something to put on your resume.

  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I understand and am usually on board with -0. I just think this thing can do the ol' beatstick routine to an acceptable degree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I don't want to repeat javcs, so I'll quote him.
    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    -0 doesn't necessarily mean it's unplayably bad.
    -0 is a range.

    Sure, there are certainly monsters that are massively worse for their RHD than the skullcrusher ogre. But that doesn't mean the skullcrusher is somehow less bad for its RHD.
    I wonder if it would be worth implementing two levels of -0 (with the lower level perhaps being -0!) just to stop these sorts of comments cropping up for literally every barely-playable beatstick with no redeeming features beyond not being as HD-bloated as it could be.
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  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I don't want to repeat javcs, so I'll quote him.


    I wonder if it would be worth implementing two levels of -0 (with the lower level perhaps being -0!) just to stop these sorts of comments cropping up for literally every barely-playable beatstick with no redeeming features beyond not being as HD-bloated as it could be.
    -0! Could get mistaken for something akin to- -0*.
    -0> for the flagrantly unplayable, maybe?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Interesting hypothesis. What makes you say that?
    From what I remember WotC designed 3.5 similarly to MtG wherein there were good and bad choices baked in.

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