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  1. - Top - End - #1081
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Assuming it has all normal chakras incarnum gives it hands for manipulation. I think it also gets 9th level maneuvers at 20 hd I think? Which is nice. Late but decent. Sadly it can`t dip enough totemist to get arms and then go initiator and still gets ninths. I think it has enough potential to be a + 0. It's on the weaker side but playable nonetheless.
    I'm trying to figure out what arms incarnum would give it hands. I'm skimming a list and coming up blank.


    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Might be neat as a mount, though.
    Isn't its neck right in the middle of its back? That'd need one heck of a fancy saddle to be rideable...


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    -0 from me as well. I don't think the 1% of the time, if that, that you'd rather play this than a humanoid race justifies them being on-par with them.
    I'm inclined to agree with this. The runehound gets a lot of cool toys, but it has limited advancement and a crappy chassis (too many RHD, not enough other numbers). It's not terrible, but it's probably below par even ignoring the lack of eyes, thumbs, and vocal cords. Yeah, those are problems that can be worked around with a bit of cash or a quick dip, but you still need to work around those problems.
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  2. - Top - End - #1082
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Isn't its neck right in the middle of its back? That'd need one heck of a fancy saddle to be rideable...
    A saddle that lets you ride underneath it? Probably designed by a gnome.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    A saddle that lets you ride underneath it? Probably designed by a gnome.
    maybe you sit on the back wrapped around its neck like if you were climbing a tree? lol

  4. - Top - End - #1084
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    -0. The tracking stuff is cool but its usefulness is highly plot-dependent. Everything else is not worth 5 HD lost.
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  5. - Top - End - #1085
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    @great wyrm gold: girillion arms bound to totem chakra gives an (additional) pair of arms. RAW it actually gives you 4 arms regardless of actual number or arms you have (or dont have).

  6. - Top - End - #1086
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I'm new to these threads, can someone explain to me why the level adjustments only go down to -0?
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  7. - Top - End - #1087
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I'm new to these threads, can someone explain to me why the level adjustments only go down to -0?
    Negative level adjustments are tricky when going into epic (a real concern with a lot of high-HD creatures). For example, a creature with twenty crappy HD equivalent to an ECL 10 character would get an epic feat at ECL 11 if it were assigned LA -10. Hence we've decided to award "some negative LA", i.e. "this creature needs at least one additional class level to be equivalent to a tier 3 character of its HD".
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post

    I'm inclined to agree with this. The runehound gets a lot of cool toys, but it has limited advancement and a crappy chassis (too many RHD, not enough other numbers). It's not terrible, but it's probably below par even ignoring the lack of eyes, thumbs, and vocal cords. Yeah, those are problems that can be worked around with a bit of cash or a quick dip, but you still need to work around those problems.
    I don't think those are problems in a party, the lack of eyes is more than offset by its blindsight in what has to be over 95% of scenarios I've been in. What does it even need thumbs for in a typical day? It seems to have vocal cords and limited language so communication for adventuring is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    It can't manipulate objects, can't talk, can't read, can only see 500 feet, can't see at all in an AMF, loses two BAB, and has -6 intelligence. To off set this, it gets underwhelming stat buffs, the ability to track really well, and a breath weapon that doesn't benefit from any breath weapon supplements. It would make a decent mount, but it is really not viable as a PC.
    It actually can talk and can manipulate objects just not as good as a creature with thumbs,

    500 feet is further than is relevant with spot and encounter distances being what they are.

    The party only needs 1 literate member * explosive runes*

    BAB loss is fairly minor for incarnares, totemists and initiators to the point that they might not notice it.

    AMF fields of relevant size are really rare in my experience.

    Other stat boosts largely make up for the intelligence hit
    Last edited by Lans; 2019-01-13 at 10:35 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #1089
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Negative level adjustments are tricky when going into epic (a real concern with a lot of high-HD creatures). For example, a creature with twenty crappy HD equivalent to an ECL 10 character would get an epic feat at ECL 11 if it were assigned LA -10. Hence we've decided to award "some negative LA", i.e. "this creature needs at least one additional class level to be equivalent to a tier 3 character of its HD".
    What about the ones that are already epic anyway? Some of the dragons could accomodate quite a significant negative LA without it becoming an issue. And anything fighter-like would probably be made more balanced by getting access to epic feats a level or two early
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  10. - Top - End - #1090
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    What about the ones that are already epic anyway? Some of the dragons could accomodate quite a significant negative LA without it becoming an issue. And anything fighter-like would probably be made more balanced by getting access to epic feats a level or two early
    While the Spellcasting Epic feats are the most broken, there are plenty of other broken Epic feats. It's a massive can of worms to allow Epic feats in a game that is pre-level 20.
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  11. - Top - End - #1091
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    I don't think those are problems in a party, the lack of eyes is more than offset by its blindsight in what has to be over 95% of scenarios I've been in. What does it even need thumbs for in a typical day? It seems to have vocal cords and limited language so communication for adventuring is possible.



    It actually can talk and can manipulate objects just not as good as a creature with thumbs,

    500 feet is further than is relevant with spot and encounter distances being what they are.

    The party only needs 1 literate member * explosive runes*

    BAB loss is fairly minor for incarnares, totemists and initiators to the point that they might not notice it.

    AMF fields of relevant size are really rare in my experience.

    Other stat boosts largely make up for the intelligence hit


    Runehounds explicitly can't speak Undercommon, while the entry says most understand it - it's "language" is both "limited" and consists of "clicks and squeals, which is virtually impossible for humanoids to reproduce". My impression is that their vocalizations are vaguely akin to dolphin chatter, though I'd expect is that to be roughly tethered to the extent that humans understood dolphin vocalizations as of when they were writing MM3 ...

    Or, in other words, probably not much more complicated than battlefield hand signals, if that extensive, at least in terms of being able to understand it without magic. And with magic, it's still explicitly a "limited language", so there'd still be hard limits on how much you'd get out of it.

    I'd also expect that since they explicitly cannot speak Undercommon, they probably can't speak other "normal" languages either.


    --

    Actually, on further review, I think their downsides are enough to slide them from +0* to -0.
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  12. - Top - End - #1092
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    While the Spellcasting Epic feats are the most broken, there are plenty of other broken Epic feats. It's a massive can of worms to allow Epic feats in a game that is pre-level 20.
    I think Bohandas was saying that for monsters with well over 20 HD, they could be given negative LA as long as that didn't take them below ECL 21. For example, the Mature Adult Red Dragon could probably have -3 LA, putting it at ECL 22.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    I think Bohandas was saying that for monsters with well over 20 HD, they could be given negative LA as long as that didn't take them below ECL 21. For example, the Mature Adult Red Dragon could probably have -3 LA, putting it at ECL 22.
    Then you have to define what negative LA really means, and what it actually does, mechanically speaking.
    Is it "just" a reduction in ECL, while retaining all your RHD? How does that interact with level-dependent interactions, or HD dependent interactions?
    Or is it something like you have that many levels that are gestalted with a class level (or a template's LA)?


    That is a discussion that is worth having, at least for some creatures, but it would take too much to deal with here.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Runehounds explicitly can't speak Undercommon, while the entry says most understand it - it's "language" is both "limited" and consists of "clicks and squeals, which is virtually impossible for humanoids to reproduce". My impression is that their vocalizations are vaguely akin to dolphin chatter, though I'd expect is that to be roughly tethered to the extent that humans understood dolphin vocalizations as of when they were writing MM3 ...

    Or, in other words, probably not much more complicated than battlefield hand signals, if that extensive, at least in terms of being able to understand it without magic. And with magic, it's still explicitly a "limited language", so there'd still be hard limits on how much you'd get out of it.

    I'd also expect that since they explicitly cannot speak Undercommon, they probably can't speak other "normal" languages either.
    Its not going to be imitating Churchill, but I think it will be fine as a murder hobo

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    What about the ones that are already epic anyway? Some of the dragons could accomodate quite a significant negative LA without it becoming an issue. And anything fighter-like would probably be made more balanced by getting access to epic feats a level or two early
    It's mostly that a PC-monster comparison is tricky enough at points. Removing the default assumption that a creature with ECL X won't have more than X RHD is going to cause more trouble than it's worth, in my opinion.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    what happened to the discussion a bit back where there were 3 options presented about how to deal with the classes compared to for deciding LA? I don't remember which fo the 3 options won and I don't see anything in the OP about it.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    what happened to the discussion a bit back where there were 3 options presented about how to deal with the classes compared to for deciding LA? I don't remember which fo the 3 options won and I don't see anything in the OP about it.
    He went with Option 3.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Its not going to be imitating Churchill, but I think it will be fine as a murder hobo
    Eh ... it is only okay as long as it doesn't need to communicate something more complicated - and since it has rather impressive blindsight range, it might well have scouting duties, and might reasonably be expected to need to convey something complicated on a fairly regular basis, and/or quickly and quietly.

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    what happened to the discussion a bit back where there were 3 options presented about how to deal with the classes compared to for deciding LA? I don't remember which fo the 3 options won and I don't see anything in the OP about it.
    Option 3.
    Which was also more or less what we'd already been doing.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Eldritch puppy votes!

    -0: 11 votes
    +0: 9 votes

    A lot of people on both sides seem to agree that the runehound is very awkwardly in between -0 and +0, and that it would be a quite balanced +0 if it just lost a HD (DMs, take note!). Seeing these results, however, I shall change the LA to -0.

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    what happened to the discussion a bit back where there were 3 options presented about how to deal with the classes compared to for deciding LA? I don't remember which fo the 3 options won and I don't see anything in the OP about it.
    I went with option 3: monsters should be compared against characters of equal ECL where possible, as long as those comparison characters are at least tier 4.
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  20. - Top - End - #1100
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Salt Mummy


    Medium-sized physical-oriented undead with 12 RHD: I won't blame you if you stop reading here and skip right to the unsurprising end.

    27 strength and 16 charisma are the only positive abilities, the others are nonexistent, average, or just plain bad. I'll admit that 6 intelligence is more than I expected, but it's still terrible.

    Fast healing 10, unholy toughness, and +9 natural armor make the salt mummy quite bulky, but their only kind of offensive pressure is a 5 ft. reach, 2d6 slam. It's unclear if salt mummies can use weapons, with the art implying they can and the text remaining silent.

    Dehydrating touch, the sole special attack of salt mummies, is not very impressive. 4d6 damage once a round is less than great, and the part where a fortitude save negates it makes it even worse (pop quiz: what save tends to be high on melee enemies?). It's also ineffective on constructs and undead, to make matters worse.

    By the way, did I mention the part where water damages salt mummies? Y'know, just in case you still considered playing one.

    Even something like the hill giant looks good next to this one. -0 LA, don't play this. The only interesting bit is that they're only 'often' chaotic evil, so idk, you can use a Good-aligned salt mummy as a surprise NPC sometimes or something.
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  21. - Top - End - #1101
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Hell, Runehounds would get a positive LA at their current RHD if they didn't have such crippling (for a PC) physical limitations.



    Salt Mummy is sad mummy. Concur with the obvious -0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    A saddle that lets you ride underneath it? Probably designed by a gnome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    I don't think those are problems in a party, the lack of eyes is more than offset by its blindsight in what has to be over 95% of scenarios I've been in. What does it even need thumbs for in a typical day? It seems to have vocal cords and limited language so communication for adventuring is possible.
    It actually can talk and can manipulate objects just not as good as a creature with thumbs,
    500 feet is further than is relevant with spot and encounter distances being what they are.
    The party only needs 1 literate member * explosive runes*
    BAB loss is fairly minor for incarnares, totemists and initiators to the point that they might not notice it.
    AMF fields of relevant size are really rare in my experience.
    Other stat boosts largely make up for the intelligence hit
    What does it need thumbs for in a typical day? Door, picking up treasure, picking up things that aren't treasure, etc. You say that the runehound can manipulate objects (and speak), but there's a big honkin' [CITATION NEEDED] on those statements. I can understand why people might think a roper's tentacles or a phantom fungus's tendrils might let them manipulate objects at least as well as an octopus, but what does the runehound have?
    As for the BAB &c, no individual number is low enough to deserve a -0. But altogether, and combined with how day-to-day life is basically impossible without assistance, garnished with how its abilities won't help so much at higher levels (compared to what another five class levels would provide), I think it just slides into -0.


    Salt mummy is salt mummy. I'd be hard-pressed to find an explanation for why they can't use weapons, but barring some broken third-party salt-mummy-only weapon, it's nowhere near enough to cancel out a dozen undead RHD and the various vulnerabilities it has. It's vulnerable to rain, for Pelor's sake!
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  23. - Top - End - #1103
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I'd love for one of my party members to play one of these so I can PK them with a Super Soaker.

    -0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    LA -0 on the Salt Mummy, end of story. I am saving my time for something actually worth analyzing.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    LA -0 on the Salt Mummy, end of story. I am saving my time for something actually worth analyzing.
    A quick look ahead in MM3 suggests there will be a lot of straightforward -0 no contests ahead.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I spent more time looking this one that is wise or smart, so...

    First: -0, by a wide margin.

    It is quite tanky, d12 and unholy toughness with decent Cha. Some natural armor, 1 level of beatstick class to wear armor and use weapons and its quite hard to kill. (assuming it never gets wet)

    1 attack though. It has a decent rider on most living creatures, but that's tied to a slam attack. 1 slam, which never gets iteratives. I'd definitely allow weapons as GM, but now you realize its 6 behind on BAB. Sorry, for damage and party utility I'd take vanilla orc barbarian over this. To say nothing of warblade/crusader with well chosen specials.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    I spent more time looking this one that is wise or smart, so...

    First: -0, by a wide margin.

    It is quite tanky, d12 and unholy toughness with decent Cha. Some natural armor, 1 level of beatstick class to wear armor and use weapons and its quite hard to kill. (assuming it never gets wet)

    1 attack though. It has a decent rider on most living creatures, but that's tied to a slam attack. 1 slam, which never gets iteratives. I'd definitely allow weapons as GM, but now you realize its 6 behind on BAB. Sorry, for damage and party utility I'd take vanilla orc barbarian over this. To say nothing of warblade/crusader with well chosen specials.
    Eh, technically the Dessicating Touch would apply to any other natural attacks, unarmed strikes, and any other physical contacts, probably grapples. Both those initiated by the Salt Mummy and those that hit it.
    So ... going monk for flurry of blows would get you more mileage out of the rider, but ... I can't say that that's really much of a substantive improvement.


    I don't know where the "it can't use weapons" or there's a question about that, comes from. I mean, it's got a skin contact rider ability, so it doesn't want to lose out on it by using weapons.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    12 undead hd on a beatstick is a solid no. -0.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    If not for the 12 awful HD (and to a lesser degree, the vulnerability to water), this thing has real potential: Undead with all of its immunities; +19 natual AC; fast healing 10; unholy toughness; +16 Str, -2 Dex, -4 Int, +6 Cha...

    If it had significantly less HD, I'd play one at LA +0.

    As it stands, LA -0.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    A quick look ahead in MM3 suggests there will be a lot of straightforward -0 no contests ahead.
    That's true of most books. Straight beatsticks tend to be worse PCs than a straight-classed barbarian of the same HD, even with a special gimmick or two, and WotC loves their gimmicky beatstick monsters...
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
    Fanfic

    Avatar by Recaiden.

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