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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Drow get a pass because their society is specifically and explicitly only kept going because of continuous meddling from their goddess. I recall that in some of the D&D novels (War of the Spider Queen) she goes silent for a while and things immediately go south for the drow.
    So Drow society is -0*; Requiring DM intervention and not really being worth it in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  2. - Top - End - #1172
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    So Drow society is -0*; Requiring DM intervention and not really being worth it in the first place?
    It seems that drow got +1 LA in an earlier thread, but I suppose that doesn't say anything about their society.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  3. - Top - End - #1173
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    It seems that drow got +1 LA in an earlier thread, but I suppose that doesn't say anything about their society.
    Well, of course. It's assumed that player character Drow renounce their connection to Drow society when they pick up their scimitars and panther companion.
    Known among friends as "Ogres"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

  4. - Top - End - #1174
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Well, of course. It's assumed that player character Drow renounce their connection to Drow society when they pick up their scimitars and panther companion.
    Well, you could be playing in an Eberron campaign...
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  5. - Top - End - #1175
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    So Drow society is -0*; Requiring DM intervention and not really being worth it in the first place?
    Thats a surprisingly apt description of it.
    The only thing it has going is being run by hot ladies in skimpy ouutfits
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  6. - Top - End - #1176
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Drow get a pass because their society is specifically and explicitly only kept going because of continuous meddling from their goddess. I recall that in some of the D&D novels (War of the Spider Queen) she goes silent for a while and things immediately go south for the drow.
    Yeah.
    The drow have more or less continuous direct intervention in their "civilization" from Lolth.
    Seriously, the drow have more direct divine involvement and intervention than anywhere and anyone outside of a Deity's private demesne.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
    No player is ever truly out of ways to surprise their DM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1177
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think they should just have done "if it has mystical powers and/or 3 or higher Int it's a magical beast". Of course, WotC didn't do that, so here we are.
    So then owlbear, hippogriff, Purple Worm, stirge, Girallon, and bullet should all be animals because they have less than 3 int and no mystical/magic powers?

  8. - Top - End - #1178
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    -0

    Also, it is weird not seeing Inevitability's avatar. What happened?
    Maybe the Church of Wee Jas filed a copyright claim?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Somewhere post-MM1 they seem to have loosened the restrictions on making non-historical but non-magical animal-like things into Animal instead of Magical Beast. (The commentary on the excision of the 3.0 Beast type is spot-on, to my knowledge.) The MM1 roc is a weird exception, but it’s almost the exception that proves the rule.
    It's just a big bird. In a world where dragons even bigger than rocs fly under their own power, despite having denser bones and heavier musculature than birds, that's pretty plausible.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Thats a surprisingly apt description of [drow society].
    The only thing it has going is being run by hot ladies in skimpy ouutfits
    This is fantasy literature. All women are hot ladies in skimpy outfits. (Except a few villains.)


    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    So then owlbear, hippogriff, Purple Worm, stirge, Girallon, and bullet should all be animals because they have less than 3 int and no mystical/magic powers?
    The bullete can swim through dirt like water.
    Other than that...why not? They're just mixtures of bits of real-world animals, sometimes with extra bits. Obviously, this means "animal" can't just mean "real-world creature," but that's an arbitrary distinction in-world. If a ranger can tame owls and bears, why not owlbears?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Negative LA Assignment Thread
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  9. - Top - End - #1179
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    The bullete can swim through dirt like water.
    Other than that...why not? They're just mixtures of bits of real-world animals, sometimes with extra bits. Obviously, this means "animal" can't just mean "real-world creature," but that's an arbitrary distinction in-world. If a ranger can tame owls and bears, why not owlbears?
    If 10' burrow speed is an issue we should probably be talking about badgers, dire badgers, and wolverines changing to magical beasts as well... Saying they 'swim' through dirt is just fluff. On a side note I am surprised Giant worker ants don't have a burrow speed.

    Over all my only dispute against making any of these animals instead of magical beasts is that animal hd suck. At least magical beast is full bab...

  10. - Top - End - #1180
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    If 10' burrow speed is an issue we should probably be talking about badgers, dire badgers, and wolverines changing to magical beasts as well... Saying they 'swim' through dirt is just fluff.
    So? Fluff-based magical abilities are still magical abilities.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  11. - Top - End - #1181
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post

    It's just a big bird. In a world where dragons even bigger than rocs fly under their own power, despite having denser bones and heavier musculature than birds, that's pretty plausible.
    Exactly my point. It makes sense under the post-MMI paradigm. It fits with the sailsnake and the sea tiger and the razor boar and whatever. But it DOESN’T fit with the MMI paradigm, which stuck relatively closely to keeping the Animal type to real/historical stuff, give or take some direness and some pop-culturization. Which is why it stands out.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
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  12. - Top - End - #1182
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Seryulin


    Honestly, I feel like the seryulin was deliberately made to be as expectation-subverting as possible. Giant dumb slug mounts? Nope: they're intelligent, threatening, and as fast as some horses. Sadly, one expectation they don't subvert is that of HD. Seryulin have ten of them to deal with, and to make matters worse they're aberration type.

    The slugs have reasonable stats. 20 strength, 8 intelligence, and +2/+4 everywhere else. They enjoy a considerable +10 natural armor, as well as DR 5/piercing or slashing and acid resistance 10. A seryulin's natural weapons are a secondary bite and two primary slams that deal honestly underwhelming damage for a Large CR 7 creature (1d6 and 1d8, respectively).

    First of their special attacks is Pain Toxin. According to the description: "Seryulin riders take advantage of the painful toxin secreted by a seryulin’s cilia to wear down foes. Once a victim has been struck by the cilia, the rider typically withdraws his mount for a round or two (into the water if possible) and lets the toxin do its work". The problem with that: the poison lasts for one round, and deals a whole 1d6 damage during that time.

    The other, less underwhelming special attack, is Sticky Spray. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    This ability entangles and immobilizes nearby creatures, and even if they escape (which takes a moderately hard strength check or a reasonable slashing attack) they're stuck moving at half speed for a few rounds. That's not a bad ability at all, but the fact that it's 1/day, non-friendly, and somewhat behind the curve of BFC does worsen it.

    Further seryulin abilities are the descriptively named "Can't Be Tripped", as well as Slick: a nonmagical Freedom of Movement (except for the part where it makes grappling a seryulin harder rather than impossible).

    If the seryulin had had a few less RHD, I might seriously consider them for +0. As they are now, however, I feel like the combination of bad RHD, lackluster abilities, body slot problems and advancement struggles leaves them deserving -0. Do discuss.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  13. - Top - End - #1183
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    All-around mediocre slug sausages.

    -0.
    Known among friends as "Ogres"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

  14. - Top - End - #1184
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Some nifty abilities, but not even close to 10 HD worth, even if they were good HD (which aberrations aren't).

    -0.

  15. - Top - End - #1185
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    10 bad RHD and abilities more appropriate for something in the 5 RHD range, apart from the adequate Natural AC. This thing is billed as an unusual mount with non-magical Freedom of Movement for the Rider besides Grappling, and that is how it should stay. LA -0.

    As for the Greater version: adding 11 more Aberration RHD in return for +3 natural AC, +12 net abilities, a 20 ft climb speed, and a size increase that does not improve your other speeds is not exactly an upgrade. Also easily LA -0.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2019-01-20 at 10:20 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #1186
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Agreed that this is a way better mount than I expected, but not a viable PC. Solid -0.

  17. - Top - End - #1187
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    First of their special attacks is Pain Toxin. According to the description: "Seryulin riders take advantage of the painful toxin secreted by a seryulin’s cilia to wear down foes. Once a victim has been struck by the cilia, the rider typically withdraws his mount for a round or two (into the water if possible) and lets the toxin do its work". The problem with that: the poison lasts for one round, and deals a whole 1d6 damage during that time.
    Some day, WotC would learn to edit the flavortext and tactics after the stat block's final draft. But the MM3 came too early for that...
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  18. - Top - End - #1188
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Easy -0 on normal and greater.

  19. - Top - End - #1189
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    -0 for both, especially on greater version.

    Has a lot of good stuff though, just nothing I'd call "great". At say, 4 RHD and those stats it could be a solid +0, maybe even mildly overpowered +0. 10 aberration RHD though, that's just too high a cost.

  20. - Top - End - #1190
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapak View Post
    Agreed that this is a way better mount than I expected, but not a viable PC. Solid -0.
    Same here. LA -0.

  21. - Top - End - #1191
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    10 RHD, no spells or equivalent. -0. Next!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Come join the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently cooking for round 27. Everyone is welcome!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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  22. - Top - End - #1192
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Concur, -0.
    Next!
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
    No player is ever truly out of ways to surprise their DM.
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  23. - Top - End - #1193
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Good as a mount; not good as a PC; -0. Next!
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.


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  24. - Top - End - #1194
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I'm a longtime lurker here. Adore your work, and have actually used it directly in my campaigns.
    The re-LA'd worg one of my players used as a barbarian cohort was very effective indeed.

    Sorry if I'm missing the point here, but something occasionally irks me about this process.

    When dealing with beings with rather odd physiologies, and often very alien outlooks or near animal intelligence etc...
    it can get really silly when people start talking about the Book of Nine Swords and martial adept levels. There are probably other examples, but something about
    martial adepts seems particularly egregious when used for such purposes.

    I get that this is about crunch, not fluff, and a largely abstract exercise too, but everything about those classes as presented is as super elite martial artists of the highest
    calibre, who have to learn their abilities by joining very limited and specific training academies. In most sensible campaign worlds, they're not going to train otyughs,
    and if your players want such a build, they're likely asking for something totally ridiculous just for mechanical crunch.
    I need a bit more than that in monster PC choices.

    I don't think its sensible to reassign LA based on character builds that wouldn't be reasonably accessible to a notable being of that type.
    If a player has to concoct a really specific and incredible backstory to justify their Gelatinous Cube Samurai, then this path probably shouldn't be implicit in the
    creature's LA weighting.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Dalmosh; 2019-01-21 at 05:41 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #1195
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    I'm a longtime lurker here. Adore your work, and have actually used it directly in my campaigns.
    The re-LA'd worg one of my players used as a barbarian cohort was very effective indeed.

    Sorry if I'm missing the point here, but something occasionally irks me about this process.

    When dealing with beings with rather odd physiologies, and often very alien outlooks or near animal intelligence etc...
    it can get really silly when people start talking about the Book of Nine Swords and martial adept levels. There are probably other examples, but something about
    martial adepts seems particularly egregious when used for such purposes.

    I get that this is about crunch, not fluff, and a largely abstract exercise too, but everything about those classes as presented is as super elite martial artists of the highest
    calibre, who have to learn their abilities by joining very limited and specific training academies. In most sensible campaign worlds, they're not going to train otyughs,
    and if your players want such a build, they're likely asking for something totally ridiculous just for mechanical crunch.
    I need a bit more than that in monster PC choices.

    I don't think its sensible to reassign LA based on character builds that wouldn't be reasonably accessible to a notable being of that type.
    If a player has to concoct a really specific and incredible backstory to justify their Gelatinous Cube Samurai, then this path probably shouldn't be implicit in the
    creature's LA weighting.

    Thoughts?
    I disagree. At the end of the day, most classes only represent crunch. Some classes come with some fluff-requirements (Paladins, some faction PRC's and whatever), but those are clearly marked in their requirements. None of the martial initiators have these requirements. Now, would it make sense when you say that your Otyugh has attended a prestigious martial academy? Of course not, but the warblade chassis could just as easily represent a regime of martial perfection practiced by hunting and fighting the fell creatures of the Otyughs home-region, or the crusader chassis attached to the big dino could represent how it's been defending its pack/herd-mates from threats. The martial initiator classes don't have to come with the 'nine swords' fluff if you don't want to, and there's a bunch of other ways you could explain why they do what they do in a way that lines up with the creatures fluff.
    Last edited by DeTess; 2019-01-21 at 06:27 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #1196
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I disagree. At the end of the day, most classes only represent crunch. Some classes come with some fluff-requirements (Paladins, some faction PRC's and whatever), but those are clearly marked in their requirements. None of the martial initiators have these requirements. Now, would it make sense when you say that your Otyugh has attended a prestigious martial academy? Of course not, but the warblade chassis could just as easily represent a regime of martial perfection practiced by hunting and fighting the fell creatures of the Otyughs home-region, or the crusader chassis attached to the big dino could represent how it's been defending its pack/herd-mates from threats. The martial initiator classes don't have to come with the 'nine swords' fluff if you don't want to, and there's a bunch of other ways you could explain why they do what they do in a way that lines up with the creatures fluff.
    Pretty much. I would never use WotC's wacky fluff to restrict my players. If it seems weird, I might ask you nicely to come up with some justification, but if you can't come up with something or simply don't want to, I don't really care.
    Known among friends as "Ogres"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

  27. - Top - End - #1197
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    I'm a longtime lurker here. Adore your work, and have actually used it directly in my campaigns.
    The re-LA'd worg one of my players used as a barbarian cohort was very effective indeed.

    Sorry if I'm missing the point here, but something occasionally irks me about this process.

    When dealing with beings with rather odd physiologies, and often very alien outlooks or near animal intelligence etc...
    it can get really silly when people start talking about the Book of Nine Swords and martial adept levels. There are probably other examples, but something about
    martial adepts seems particularly egregious when used for such purposes.

    I get that this is about crunch, not fluff, and a largely abstract exercise too, but everything about those classes as presented is as super elite martial artists of the highest
    calibre, who have to learn their abilities by joining very limited and specific training academies. In most sensible campaign worlds, they're not going to train otyughs,
    and if your players want such a build, they're likely asking for something totally ridiculous just for mechanical crunch.
    I need a bit more than that in monster PC choices.

    I don't think its sensible to reassign LA based on character builds that wouldn't be reasonably accessible to a notable being of that type.
    If a player has to concoct a really specific and incredible backstory to justify their Gelatinous Cube Samurai, then this path probably shouldn't be implicit in the
    creature's LA weighting.

    Thoughts?
    Firstly, thank you for your continued interest in this thread! It's always nice to hear from people who like my ramblings.

    Secondly, I'd like to emphasize that D&D is at its core a game of fantasy, and there are some pretty strange characters possible in said world. Remember, amongst the game's weirder canonical NPCs are a succubus paladin, a shadow squirrel ninja, and a tree with druid levels: it's not a huge stretch to allow a crusader otyugh.

    Of course, it's not unreasonable to request for players to at least explain why their characters have a particular class (I know I'd do so in games I run), but that doesn't mean certain races must be barred from certain classes. Instead, work with the player to find a way to explain why their otyugh knows a variety of advanced maneuvers. Did they once occupy a different form, and have been cursed? Are they the result of a crazed mind flayer's experiments? Or perhaps an old martial master decided to teach them those techniques out of nothing but curiosity. There's no reason to forbid certain race-class combinations when they can be the source of some really interesting plot hooks.

    What is 'reasonably accessible' and what is not is DM-dependent. There's people out there who let players combine every race and class, as well as people who think arcane orc characters are unrealistic and shouldn't be allowed. Assuming that the average DM will act in a certain way, and shifting level adjustments based on that, is in my opinion beyond the scope of what should be a DM-inspecific thread.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  28. - Top - End - #1198
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Firstly, thank you for your continued interest in this thread! It's always nice to hear from people who like my ramblings.

    Secondly, I'd like to emphasize that D&D is at its core a game of fantasy, and there are some pretty strange characters possible in said world. Remember, amongst the game's weirder canonical NPCs are a succubus paladin, a shadow squirrel ninja, and a tree with druid levels: it's not a huge stretch to allow a crusader otyugh.

    Of course, it's not unreasonable to request for players to at least explain why their characters have a particular class (I know I'd do so in games I run), but that doesn't mean certain races must be barred from certain classes. Instead, work with the player to find a way to explain why their otyugh knows a variety of advanced maneuvers. Did they once occupy a different form, and have been cursed? Are they the result of a crazed mind flayer's experiments? Or perhaps an old martial master decided to teach them those techniques out of nothing but curiosity. There's no reason to forbid certain race-class combinations when they can be the source of some really interesting plot hooks.

    What is 'reasonably accessible' and what is not is DM-dependent. There's people out there who let players combine every race and class, as well as people who think arcane orc characters are unrealistic and shouldn't be allowed. Assuming that the average DM will act in a certain way, and shifting level adjustments based on that, is in my opinion beyond the scope of what should be a DM-inspecific thread.
    Don't forget the Beholder who controls the largest Rogue's Guild in Faerun. You know, the creatures who are so incredibly self-absorbed and paranoid that they live in total isolation and kill/enslave anything it encounters? One runs the Rogue's Guild in Waterdeep.
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  29. - Top - End - #1199
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    I get that this is about crunch, not fluff, and a largely abstract exercise too, but everything about those classes as presented is as super elite martial artists of the highest
    calibre, who have to learn their abilities by joining very limited and specific training academies. In most sensible campaign worlds, they're not going to train otyughs,
    and if your players want such a build, they're likely asking for something totally ridiculous just for mechanical crunch.
    That's true of most classes, though. What kind of clerical/druidic order would admit an otyugh? There go divine casting classes, probably including paladin and ranger. What kind of wizarding college, monastery, or thieves' guild would admit them? What would be plausible for them, aside from barbarian and fighter?
    If only people could learn skills without the aid of institutions like these. Oh wait...
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Negative LA Assignment Thread
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  30. - Top - End - #1200
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Pretty much. I would never use WotC's wacky fluff to restrict my players. If it seems weird, I might ask you nicely to come up with some justification, but if you can't come up with something or simply don't want to, I don't really care.
    That's imho the biggest problem of 3.5, even worse than the tier differences. It can't decide whether it wants to be a generic universal fantasy roleplaying system (GUFRPS?) or a game with rules and a setting.
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