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  1. - Top - End - #1381
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    More evidence (like we needed it) that there was no real testing or logic involved in the 3.X creative process.

    Whoever thought 15ft/round was an appropriate move speed for animated snow never had to roll for initiative vs an avalanche.

    -0, even Split doesn't make this useable for anything besides bogging the game down.

  2. - Top - End - #1382
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    On a tangential note, I feel like Split would be better if the "daughter oozes" were reduced by one size category with each split (or possible with every other split or something), and there was a mechanic for daughter oozes to rejoin: that would encourage the PC to seek some kind of optimal middle ground, and prevent runaway oooze-pocalypses. I also feel like oozes should have had the Regeneration ability, and I homebrewed an ooze that has Split keyed to its Regeneration, such that it splits whenever it would be knocked unconscious due to accumulated nonlethal damage.
    There's a trope for that. Though it's flexible enough to include snowflake oozes...
    While that idea sounds good in theory, it also sounds like a pain to DM. After all, the smaller oozes would presumably have different stats than full-sized ones, meaning you'd need to swap between them on the fly and not get them confused. Also the fact that you'd need to keep track of HP &c for a potentially exponentially-increasing number of slimes...that's better in a video game than a TRPG, since computers don't start tearing out their hair when they need to keep track of a bunch of numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    More evidence (like we needed it) that there was no real testing or logic involved in the 3.X creative process.

    Whoever thought 15ft/round was an appropriate move speed for animated snow never had to roll for initiative vs an avalanche.
    Presumably, this ooze can move in directions that aren't downhill, so it balances out.
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  3. - Top - End - #1383
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Clearly the snowflake ooze needs monk levels to improve its movement speed and leverage its grappling advantage for even better wizard-killing.

    -0*, of course.

    (Though if it did take monk levels, Slow Fall would look very pretty.)
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  4. - Top - End - #1384
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I hate how construct hit dice work. If you remove the HP bonus for size and instead add like +6 HP per hit die to the Behemoth it could have the same HP total with 12 fewer hit dice. Having a type that can't get HP bonuses per hit die and are also almost without exception made to be huge, unstoppable juggernauts just feels so stupid.
    I heartily agree. Most of the nonability rules are stupid, but the no Con scores for constructs and undead is particularly dumb.
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  5. - Top - End - #1385
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I really like the ideas of +hp/hd or +size/hd for constructs, may very well introduce one instance or the other in my games soon, I'm just still pondering which one.

    Also -0 on the choking surprise avalanche.

  6. - Top - End - #1386
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Going with consensus -0 for the golems, -0* for ooze. The split may not break anything but the DM definitely needs to keep an eye on it.

    Trying to stretch eviscerator to +0, but I don't think it is there. Maybe if DM gave a lot of love, 3d6 int/con for free, feats for rhd (they don't by default). The damage is ok. I'm staying -0 but possibly just playable. It could make a fairly cool cohort, though.

    Edit: And it outright can't speak, and can't reasonably use held items/weapons or use command word stuff. Telepathy is reasonable at level 15, but we're looking at a lot of DM love to hit par.
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-02-08 at 07:28 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #1387
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Can't be bothered doing a detailed analysis: suffice to say I agree with the Snowflake Ooze weighing in at LA -0*.

    Has anyone made the obligatory "snowflake" joke about it's feelings being easily hurt yet?

  8. - Top - End - #1388
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Can't be bothered doing a detailed analysis: suffice to say I agree with the Snowflake Ooze weighing in at LA -0*.

    Has anyone made the obligatory "snowflake" joke about it's feelings being easily hurt yet?
    I mean, itís mindless and therefore immune to morale effects, so having easily hurt feelings is pretty much the only problem it DOESNíT have.
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  9. - Top - End - #1389
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I mean, itís mindless and therefore immune to morale effects, so having easily hurt feelings is pretty much the only problem it DOESNíT have.
    Music of the Gods bards can do so, though.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  10. - Top - End - #1390
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Spellwarped


    The second MM3 template, and considerably easier to rate than the first one.

    Spellwarped changes type to aberration, increases natural armor by a bit, modifies ability scores somewhat (+4 strength, +2 dexterity, +4 constitution, +4 intelligence), grants 11+HD spell resistance, and most importantly gives Spell Absorption.

    The latter ability makes any resisted spell give the spellwarped creature one of six bonuses, chosen at the moment the spell resolves. Interestingly, while the first three effects (+4 enhancement to strength/dex/con) only last a minute, the temporary hit points, speed boost, and energy resistance don't have a set duration. By RAW, a spellwarped creature, with minimal caster support, has resistance 10 to all energy forms as well as a reasonable boost to speed.

    Of course, the ability has in-combat uses too, and also manages to compensate for the double-edged nature of spell resistance a bit. Sure, missing out on a Protection From Evil spell sucks, but getting +4 strength kind of makes up for that.

    In the end, I'm very torn between +1 and +2 LA. Spellwarped, especially when accounting for a base race, seems way stronger than most +1 LA races, but I'm somewhat unsure it stacks up to +2 LA ones. In the end I'll go with +2, but I am very open to arguments for other LAs.
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  11. - Top - End - #1391
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I am thinking +2. Maybe on the lower side but with all net gains, absorption and the int bonus for skills and fixing dumb brute issues I think its better than a plus 1.

  12. - Top - End - #1392
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    RAI, the other boosts probably should only last for a minute too, I think. Still, the benefits aren't exactly bad.
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  13. - Top - End - #1393
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I think it's too good for +1 but doesn't really do anything exciting other than +numbers, which makes it a little disappointing at +2. Still, I'll put this down for a +2 LA.
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  14. - Top - End - #1394
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Spellwarped Creature: at a glance, it just clears the bar for LA +2. Net +14 abilities is +2 over what I consider the minimum per point of LA for a template, and natural AC +2 is par for LA +2. Not thrilled about the type change, even with no recalculation, since as an inherited it limits what other templates you can work with, but a trifle overall.

    For each point of LA, a template needs one really good ability, 3-4 decent ones, or at least 5 usable ones; weighed against any losses or complications of note. This thing has 1 good ability-scaling SR of reasonable rating. 1 decent one: an extra +2 net abilities; 3 usable, in the form of temporary Str/Dex/Con enhancements that most bruisers will eventualy overlay with quality equipment. Then 2 big question marks-a large, readily available pool of temporary HP, Resitance 10 against all 5 energy types, and a large, untyped bonus to all speeds, with a big 'ol asterisk if they are effectively permanent or if they are only active for 1 minute at a time. Of course we got errata that did not mention the Spellwarped Creature template at all.

    If those bonuses are 1 minute temps, I say a weak LA +2 for the plethora of weaker abilities. If those bonuses are permanent, then the template needs to be balanced against 50 points of energy resistance, plus temporary HP and typeless bonuses to your speed equal to 5 x the highest level spell your group can cast, provided they took heighten spell so they can push a weak, non lethal spell with SR:yes up into their top slot. Such scaling bonuses would easily push this into LA +3, mostly because adding such a monster boost to all speeds via an untyped bonus is hard to match at all, much less via template.

    Sooo...I would say weak LA +2 RAI with temp bonuses to speed, resists, and HP; otherwise, strong LA +3, verging on +4 with RAW and a permissive DM.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2019-02-10 at 10:42 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #1395
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I think it's too good for +1 but doesn't really do anything exciting other than +numbers, which makes it a little disappointing at +2. Still, I'll put this down for a +2 LA.
    Hmm. What else has been given +2 up until now? Looks like half-dragon and lich. I guess this is probably closer to half-dragon than it is to celestial, fiendish, or lycanthrope, which is evidence for it being closer to +2 than to +1. I guess.

    I donít think Iíd play one at +2, but as Iíve freely admitted many times, I really hate being behind in levels, so I demand a very high return on investment for LA. Losing two CL (a whole spell level!) or two BAB or 2/3 of a feat or twice your CON in HP (plus a few) or two max skill ranks is not a small matter, to say nothing of actual class feature advancement, you know? Is this template worth all that? My gut says no, but Iím willing to listen to the folks who arenít so LA-averse telling me that the numbers might actually add up.

    I think itís not a good bargain at +2, but Iíll grudgingly concede that itís probably above +1. Itís a prime candidate for some rebalancing. Shave off a few of the gratuitous ability score bumps and we could probably get it down to a reasonable +1.
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  16. - Top - End - #1396
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I think it's too good for +1 but doesn't really do anything exciting other than +numbers, which makes it a little disappointing at +2. Still, I'll put this down for a +2 LA.
    I fully agree with this. I'd definitely pay 2RHD for this, and it's too strong for only +1LA, so +2 it is.
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  17. - Top - End - #1397
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Would love a +1.5 or something. The math is just too good for a +1 to make any sense. Even assuming all buffs last 1 minute, I think it has to be +2. Very underwhelming +2. Though it has both solid physical stats and skill points, I can't see it being chosen at +2 for any actual game.

  18. - Top - End - #1398
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Well, I may be the only one saying +1, but I just disagree with +2. I woul never pick this for +2. The ability boosts are great. The SR is good. However, the other abilities are situational. If you don't fight enemies that cause your abilities to activate, you are hanging onto that LA for nothing. Also, if they beat your SR you don't have your abilities. If it was more reliable or just a given feature, I would agree with +2.

    So, +1 for me
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  19. - Top - End - #1399
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    My metric all along has been 'what is the maximum LA I would play this at.' And this is the first one that's really busted it. It definitely feels too strong for +1 - the ability boosts are all in range, but the relevant, scaling SR and spell absorption puts it over the top.

    But I'd have to think long and hard about if I'd ever play it at +2. I'm thinking it through at ECL 5, 10, 15, and 20 - at ECL 5, those two levels really hurt. And the boosts alone aren't worth being a full level of spells behind for most of your career. But at 10 and 15, on a martial or skill chassis, I can see it.

    So I guess I go with the crowd and vote +2; it's on the weak end of that rating but I think it squeaks in.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Well, I may be the only one saying +1, but I just disagree with +2. I woul never pick this for +2. The ability boosts are great. The SR is good. However, the other abilities are situational. If you don't fight enemies that cause your abilities to activate, you are hanging onto that LA for nothing. Also, if they beat your SR you don't have your abilities. If it was more reliable or just a given feature, I would agree with +2.

    So, +1 for me
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  21. - Top - End - #1401
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    If it were 2 RHD, I'd play it, or even 1 RHD and 1 LA.
    It's a bit too good for +1 LA, but doesn't really cut it at +2 LA.

    Plus, let's be realistic, its absorption gets a lot less useful as you level, because enhancement bonuses don't stack, so the Might, Agility, and Endurance options can be ignored once you have statbooster items ... or somebody capable of casting the relevant spell in the party.

    Although ... RAW, the Life, Speed, and Resistance options, with their instantaneous effects, may both stackable and enough to merit a +2, or even a *.
    The RAW Speed option, at least, is stackable with itself and everything else, because it's not a speed bonus (untyped or otherwise) - it's explicitly an increase of base speed. And I think it would apply to all movement modes the creature has.
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  22. - Top - End - #1402
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Don't worry, you're not alone. I agree with this post entirely.
    Second this.

    If something is "too strong at +X LA" and "too weak at X+1 LA" I'll always go in favor of the lower. I'd rather something be a bit too strong than be unplayable, since the point of this thread is to make things playable.

  23. - Top - End - #1403
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I'm voting LA +2.

    The ability boosts (+14 total), natural armour boost, SR and spell absorbing abilities easily put it beyond LA +1 IMHO.

    At my table , it would be more like LA +3, but in the context of this thread, LA +2 will do.

    Side note: this is pretty much my favourite template to use as a DM.

    Quick question: does being an aberration open up any feats or PrCs not normally open to other race types? I know you can be a +0 aberration with Elan, so maybe there is already a guide around this?

  24. - Top - End - #1404
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I'm voting LA +2.

    The ability boosts (+14 total), natural armour boost, SR and spell absorbing abilities easily put it beyond LA +1 IMHO.

    At my table , it would be more like LA +3, but in the context of this thread, LA +2 will do.

    Side note: this is pretty much my favourite template to use as a DM.

    Quick question: does being an aberration open up any feats or PrCs not normally open to other race types? I know you can be a +0 aberration with Elan, so maybe there is already a guide around this?
    Rapidstrike is the big one I think.
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  25. - Top - End - #1405
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    +2. At +1 is puts a number of really good +1's to shame. At +2 it is underwhelming while being niche but a +1 I could just see it getting blanket banned at my table for being too good.

  26. - Top - End - #1406
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Spellwarped is notable for being one of the few Intelligence-boosting templates out there. I like it just for that.

    For a tier 4 or tier 5 mundane at higher levels, class features don't matter too much, and the template is good. For casters, LA is--as usual-- not really an option.

    Since we are going for a t3 balance point or higher, I don't see LA +2 being low enough to make the template usable. You'd be behind a full spell level on full casters, a full maneuver level on initiators, 2/3rds of a spell level on bards, and the ability boosts just don't quite make up for the lost base attack, saves, hp, and skills. PrC access is delayed, and any scaling class features are, too.

    At LA +1, I think Spellwarped would be like dipping barbarian or crusader or warblade 1: it's a nice one-level power boost for anyone looking to do physical combat. LA +1, it is.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    From here on, monsters will be rated based on their performance relatively to a tier 1-4 class, with whatever class fits best being picked (some debate about a best fit may arise, and that's okay).
    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    For a tier 4 or tier 5 mundane at higher levels, class features don't matter too much, and the template is good. For casters, LA is--as usual-- not really an option.

    Since we are going for a t3 balance point or higher, I don't see LA +2 being low enough to make the template usable.
    The balance point is T4, not T3. I think compared to a T4 class, spellwarped merits a +2.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I think I'd almost always pick it at +1, so +2 it is.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    Second this.

    If something is "too strong at +X LA" and "too weak at X+1 LA" I'll always go in favor of the lower. I'd rather something be a bit too strong than be unplayable, since the point of this thread is to make things playable.
    That's my policy, too. Giving this thing a +2 ensures that it'll never be played, and there are even posters saying that they'll never use it at +2 but are still voting for +2, anyways. I just have to ask: why?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    I think it's too good for +1 but doesn't really do anything exciting other than +numbers, which makes it a little disappointing at +2.
    I mean, it has the spell resistance, which gives a way to avoid spells other than boosting saving throws. And it can get neat bonuses from resisting spells, which are +numbers on an interesting trigger. But yeah, it's basically just numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by HisHighestMinio View Post
    The balance point is T4, not T3. I think compared to a T4 class, spellwarped merits a +2.
    Pretty sure it's always been T3. Picking a random page and searching for "tier":
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Finally, spells. Ak'Chazars have 12th-level sorcerer casting, which they can add at most three levels to. Even so, sorcerers have arguably the best spell list in the game, and with a tier 3 balance point 7th-level spells are still pretty dang impressive. Having easy access to Divine Metamagic doesn't hurt either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    That's my policy, too. Giving this thing a +2 ensures that it'll never be played, and there are even posters saying that they'll never use it at +2 but are still voting for +2, anyways. I just have to ask: why?
    Because they'd always pick it at +1 (or at least "always when I have a build that could benefit from physical bulk and whatnot"), and that's also a problem.
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2019-02-10 at 07:40 PM.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
    Fanfic

    Avatar by Recaiden.

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