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  1. - Top - End - #1441
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    As for the name, LA LA LAND would work. Though I don't know how funny/entertaining it'll still be down the road.
    How about Revolution LA or LA Revolution?


    --
    Back to the Spellwarped.
    I'll repeat/clarify myself here, since it seems to have gotten mostly lost.


    IMO, +2 Natural Armor, +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, SR 11+HD, and the Aberration type are a +1. A strong +1, to be sure, but not a +2.


    Absorption, however, merits a * - meaning that the DM should look at it before allowing the Spellwarped to be used by a player.
    Either because it's going to be run RAW and the potentially unlimited bonuses from the Life, Speed, and Resistance options need to be accounted for, or because they are going be changed to have the 1 minute duration that the +4 Str/Dex/Con enhancement bonus options have.

    Wherever you personally side on this RAW or (probable) RAI debate at your own table, I believe it is fair to say that the ability ought to be reviewed by every DM - and their decision made before they allow it into the hands of players at their table.


    As such, since without Absorption the Spellwarped is a (strong) +1, but Absorption (or parts of it) clearly requires DM review, the Spellwarped should get a +1*.
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  2. - Top - End - #1442
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I’m still in favor of “Making Monster PCs VI-able” as the title. Though I’ll admit that “LA LA Land” is also pretty darn good.
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  3. - Top - End - #1443
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I’m still in favor of “Making Monster PCs VI-able” as the title. Though I’ll admit that “LA LA Land” is also pretty darn good.
    I'm going to vote for Zaq's suggestion. LA LA Land is pretty good, but it'll work for VII just as well as VI.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Zaq's is pretty good too.

  5. - Top - End - #1445
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I vote +2 for Spellwarped, and I looooooove the title "I have no mouth and I must V, S, M".
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I have been swayed by compelling arguement.

    Please change my vote to +1*.

  7. - Top - End - #1447
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I’m still in favor of “Making Monster PCs VI-able” as the title. Though I’ll admit that “LA LA Land” is also pretty darn good.
    Honestly you kinda swayed me. VI-able only works for this one, while LA LA Land can be used for any following thread.
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  8. - Top - End - #1448
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    biggrin Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    I have been swayed by compelling arguement.

    Please change my vote to +1*.
    Someone's opinion changed by rational argument on the internet???


  9. - Top - End - #1449
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    I vote +2 for Spellwarped, and I looooooove the title "I have no mouth and I must V, S, M".
    I like this suggestion for name the best personally. Now my group of friends plays with buy off, but at +2 I would definitely play spellwarped if I wanted the fluff. Even the issue of eating friendly buffs is balanced against being able to transform those failed spells into other buffs while still maintaining a useful defense is not a bad trade off. At +1 is would easily out compete draconic and mineral warrior is my concern why it should not be +1.

    Consider vs mineral warrior you are balancing 14 stat points vs dr 8/adamantine. While early on that dr is nice it will not age as well as +2 skill points per level unless you are in a 100% kick in the door no RP style game and even then if all is equal mineral warrior will just have worse reflex and will saves. 5% may not be the biggest shift ever but when a lot of these failed saves means death or disability every point counts until you can only fail on a one.

    Draconic dies in a fire unless you really need dragonblood subtype and don't want to spend a feat.

  10. - Top - End - #1450
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I’m still in favor of “Making Monster PCs VI-able” as the title. Though I’ll admit that “LA LA Land” is also pretty darn good.
    I vote for this

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I like this idea, to be honest. Would people be opposed to +1* LA?
    Short of "Add a .5 sort of thing specifically for this template, then devolve into weeks of arguments about if past monsters should get .5's," it's about the best option we have.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I guess laughting is easier when you are suddenly left without a coherent counter argument.
    Because, i mean a normal person disagreeing would have been able to put up a list of 3-4 better abilities if it was not true.
    Or at least a coherent counterargument of some kind. Just laughing at the other guy only works if everyone is laughing with you, and even then it's pretty rude (and less effective than sarcastically rejecting counterarguments).


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I’m still in favor of “Making Monster PCs VI-able” as the title.
    Quote Originally Posted by Randuir View Post
    I'm going to vote for Zaq's suggestion. LA LA Land is pretty good, but it'll work for VII just as well as VI.
    Agreed.
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  12. - Top - End - #1452
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Given the time sensitivity I change my vote to "VI-able" for the next thread title.

  13. - Top - End - #1453
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Or at least a coherent counterargument of some kind. Just laughing at the other guy only works if everyone is laughing with you, and even then it's pretty rude (and less effective than sarcastically rejecting counterarguments).
    Yeah, now ExLibrisMortis was able to formulate a solid arguent for at least some cases where Spell resistance would be less desireable.
    But as remetagross pointed out, even in some of those cases, you still get something from it.
    Actually, it made me realise spell absorbtion were a lot stronger than i expected. Getting 15 temp HP from resisting the fireball of a random minion is rather badass.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Yeah, Zaq's idea is both hilarious and only works for the next thread anyways, so that sounds good.
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  15. - Top - End - #1455
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    "VI-able" title sound good.

    On the not of spell-warped: I would say LA+1 mostly because spell-resistance is a double edged sword and that the spell absorption becomes WEAKER as you level up with the encahncment bonuses becoming less relevant as you get better gear. This is ofc assuming you RAI the interpretation that the other bonuses are also enhancement bonuses and/or last as long as the stat boosts. It kind of becomes unusable with the RAW interpretation as you pretty much have NI Speed/Elemental Resist/HP.

  16. - Top - End - #1456
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Someone's opinion changed by rational argument on the internet???

    I think that should perhaps count as grounds for going with it no matter what anybody else says.
    I'm joking. Mostly.


    More seriously, though, it's not the first time on these threads, and it likely won't be the last.
    Take that internet! We have reasoned debates that are about convincing people our arguments are correct rather than just being the loudest voice.


    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Yeah, Zaq's idea is both hilarious and only works for the next thread anyways, so that sounds good.
    ^This.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    "VI-able" title sound good.

    On the not of spell-warped: I would say LA+1 mostly because spell-resistance is a double edged sword and that the spell absorption becomes WEAKER as you level up with the encahncment bonuses becoming less relevant as you get better gear. This is ofc assuming you RAI the interpretation that the other bonuses are also enhancement bonuses and/or last as long as the stat boosts. It kind of becomes unusable with the RAW interpretation as you pretty much have NI Speed/Elemental Resist/HP.
    Your perceived need for the DM deciding to go RAI on Absorption: Life/Speed/Resistance would mandate the inclusion of a *, because otherwise it goes in as RAW without the DM necessarily realizing the need to look at it and go with RAI over RAW.
    And we can't assume that the DM has encyclopedic knowledge of everything that might or might not be in need of some DM adjudication or tweaking.
    Frankly the only thing we can assume is that the DM should look at the Absorption ability before allowing a Spellwarped PC. And that mandates a * by itself, no matter what number we want to give it.
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  17. - Top - End - #1457
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    +1 on the spellwarped and throwing my vote in for "Viva LA Revolution".
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  18. - Top - End - #1458
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    The Warblade comparison has me at a weak +2

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    +1 for Making Monster PCs VI-able

    On the other side I think the question of +1 or +2 should come down to at what time do the absorption benefits fall off as useful? For this I will assume we are using RAI as RAW gets goofy...

    For starters I believe that if the ability score bonuses weren't enhancements this would be a completely different conversation, but because they are they fall off in importance somewhere between level 6-10; granted these bonuses have the potential to alleviate 16,000-48,000gp which is nothing to sneeze at especially when this can be traded for a few level 0 spell slots.

    Next we have energy resistance, If I know I am about to face say a red dragon I can have my energy resistance equal to ten times the number of 0 level spells I am willing to sink into it for the first ~ minute of the fight.

    Next is speed it is kind of interesting as a 5*spell level base speed increase for a minute, it is probably best left as a mid battle buff to pump as enemy magic fails to break through your sr but not particularly powerful.

    Lastly is the temp hit points which are probably the weakest buff as they can't keep up with a cure spell of a similar level but a decent mid battle buff to choose when enemies fail to break your sr.

    Looking everything over RAI these abilities aren't enough to make up for the down sides of SR and only blunt the double edged sword. By RAW you end up with effectively immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic that can't be overcome by the normal tricks that over come immunity which are far and between, you have effectively infinite life and infinite base speed and the ability to negate 48,000 for three 0 level spells...

    So I can get behind +1* though I still have some issues with +1 just based on the ability mods you are getting. Honestly at +1 you really aren't loosing anything as a int based caster, I am not seeing how this isn't an immediate yes please template.

  20. - Top - End - #1460
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Honestly you kinda swayed me. VI-able only works for this one, while LA LA Land can be used for any following thread.
    Agree. Revising my next title vote to VI-able

  21. - Top - End - #1461
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Putting in my vote for the VI-able title.

  22. - Top - End - #1462
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Spellwarped votes!

    +1: 5 votes
    +1*: 5 votes
    +2: 15 votes

    So yeah, even with the +1 and +1* camps added together, it seems most people prefer +2. LA remains unchanged at +2, next post will be up shortly.
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  23. - Top - End - #1463
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Splinterwaif


    Urban fey are always interesting to see, and I honestly like this monster quite a bit. Essentially, they're insane spirits that live in piles of disused lumber, kidnap children, transform them into shrubs, and eat them.

    How do those charming creatures stack up as PCs? Surprisingly well. Two fey RHD sting a little, but aren't that much worse than two rogue RHD. The stat boosts are surprisingly large: +10 dexterity, +8 intelligence, +6 charisma, +4 wisdom, and +2 constitution. That's a net +30 to ability scores, for two RHD.

    Furthermore, splinterwaifs (splinterwaives?) have DR 5/silver (curiously enough, that's silver and not cold iron). Their base land and climb speeds of 50 ft. are blazingly fast, they get Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative for free, and on top of all that splinterwaifs get 2d6 sneak attack. They also have some natural armor (+2), SR 7, and a racial +10 hide bonus.

    Weapon-wise, splinterwaifs have a natural claw (1d4 damage) and the ability to spit a thin wooden splinter (1d6 damage) with what's otherwise a fairly unremarkable natural ranged weapon.

    The splinterwaif's special abilities are worth mentioning too. Call Bramble lets it create a bramble with the stats of a medium animate object as a standard action: it's not great, but it might be worth using at low levels sometime.

    Camouflage let's the splinterwaif give itself +10 to Hide and concealment as a full-round action, until it moves. It's obviously better on an ambusher monster than a PC, but even so it's not useless.

    Superior Woodland Stride is exactly what you'd expect: the ability to travel through dense undergrowth, brambles, thorns, and what else. It notably also grants immunity against magical versions of those effects, meaning that stuff like Entangle isn't an issue anymore.

    Finally there's Transformation, which lets the splinterwaif turn dead fey and humanoids into bramble bushes. It's mostly a fluff ability, though it does have some utility in preventing Raise Dead and Resurrection from working.


    What LA is appropriate here? I think we can all agree +0 is far too low, and in my opinion +1 is too. Comparing the splinterwaif to a human rogue or swordsage, at +1 it has somewhat less HP, much better stats, Damage Reduction, the same amount of sneak attack, and just as many feats (though the human has more flexibility in which ones to pick).

    Honestly, I feel like +2 is the proper LA here: it strikes a good balance between 'too fragile to function' and 'hyperfast murderthorn'. +2 for now, looking forward to feedback.



    Splinterwaif Knave

    Four more RHD haven't done the splinterwaif a lot of good. Its sneak attack has gone up by +2d6, and its spell resistance is a bit higher, but its stats are otherwise unchanged. I think this is still viable at +0 LA, though.
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  24. - Top - End - #1464
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Those are excellent ability boosts. Along with the class-like abilities for their 2 RHD, I would certainly agree that it can't be below +2 LA.

  25. - Top - End - #1465
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    +2 on child murder plant. Its always use for stealth class at plus 1. That is too good. I am afb but since camo grants concealment, what is the wording/action type, cause thats at will HIPS which is also very good to have. Also i assume based on the upgraded version (which is +0 at best) that the SR scales with HD? That is pretty nice.

  26. - Top - End - #1466
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Let's see. Fantastic stat boosts, two claw attacks, incredibly useful bonus feats, Sneak Attack equal to that of a 3rd-level Rogue, and a couple of other relatively but still nice things on top of that. And judging from the statblock, it looks like Disable Device and UMD are the only important Rogue skills they don't have.

    To be blunt, this is a +2 at minimum, maybe a +3 even(though probably not more than that). A couple points of BAB and slightly less hit points(especially at higher levels) is still more than worth all the advantages Splinterwaifs get.

    I don't know about the Knave, but I guess it could be worse, especially since it already enjoys +4d6 Sneak Attack in total - that's as much as a 7th-level Rogue would have.
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  27. - Top - End - #1467
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Fey RHD hurt, but this thing is built to the specifications of a martial skillmonkey, so it is almost irrelevant. Its RHD, relative to a Rogue, will trade away 4 total skill points and level 1-2 access to UMD and DD, for +3 base Will save over the first two levels; a reasonable trade.

    Now for what Inevitability missed or glossed over: Call Brambles is much better than it seems at a glance; any wooden surface qualifies, so a non-magical, non-ammunition ranged weapon like a javelin or spear chucked into a strategic location is a viable target by RAW, and hitting a specific target square is child's play after a few levels. While it takes a standard action to activate, the Splinterwaif can keep it active and attacking every turn as a free action, which was never errata'd to Swift. A medium Animated Object is crap for grappling or damage output, but surprise flanking on someone with their back to a wall or ceiling has its uses, and can disrupt spellcasting-remember your thorn still gets AoO.

    One more thing-by RAW, the Splinterwaif's Sneak Attack increases to 3d6 and 4d6 at 4 HD and 6 HD, no matter where those HD come from, like class levels; so it actually gets 4D6 free Sneak Attack. Add up all of that, plus everything Inevitability mentioned, and I am leaning towards a rather strong LA +2. If it was not losing 1 BAB with poor base Fortitude and HP, I would have voted for LA +3, it is that close.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2019-02-13 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    +2 on child murder plant. Its always use for stealth class at plus 1. That is too good. I am afb but since camo grants concealment, what is the wording/action type, cause thats at will HIPS which is also very good to have. Also i assume based on the upgraded version (which is +0 at best) that the SR scales with HD? That is pretty nice.
    The SR does not scale, not explicitly, anyways. And even if it did, it'd be 5+HD, which is a bit too low to be reliable, especially with the LA.


    Baseline is a solid +2. The knave ... +0.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    I'm a rogue, but stronger. +2 LA. I think at three, it's lacking hp would really tip the scales against it.

    Isn't it weird that urban areas end up having these super-deadly creatures? Between these and house cats, how do commoners survive?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I'm a rogue, but stronger. +2 LA. I think at three, it's lacking hp would really tip the scales against it.

    Isn't it weird that urban areas end up having these super-deadly creatures? Between these and house cats, how do commoners survive?
    I have always thought it was amusing to think about a druid with an army of cats could easily take out quite a few towns....

    Anyways I agree +2 at +3 this think will just get one shotted too easily...

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